Your Stories - October 97

My boyfriend is currently an Amway distributor. I didn't learn this until we had been dating for a few weeks. He kept saying that within five years he was going to be a millionaire, but he would never tell me how he was going to do this. "You'll find out in time," he kept telling me. Well, we were going to visit his parents, and the day before we left, he sat me down and asked me, "What are your dreams?" All of this led to him telling me about Amway (his parents are Amway distributors also, and he wanted to tell me before I found out from them). Anyway, I didn't really have a problem with him being in Amway. The way he described it, he's not "selling" anything. He just buys his personal products and gets others to do the same. It seemed easy enough, and since I didn't want to be a "dream killer," I accepted the fact. Well, he just return on Monday from a seminar in *. I called him Monday night (we live about three hours apart), and he said that he really needed to talk to me. He wouldn't tell me what about, but he said that he could only talk in person. Well, I won't see him for about two weeks, so I asked him if he would remember what he wanted to talk about then. His reply was, "1.25 million dollars is hard to forget." Just wonderful...I'll bet you anything that he wants me to sell - excuse me - "buy" Amway with him. Well, I've had several friends lose money with Amway. I'm also a very rational person, so before getting into anything, I decided to check out Amway on the internet. Thanks to your page, I'm learning that not only is Amway not a good idea for me (I am an engineer - not a salesman), but the way that my boyfriend is doing it is illegal. I just have one do I convince my boyfriend of this without losing him? I've read several of the e-mails from other people, but so far I haven't found any answers. What made you realize that Amway wasn't everything that it's cracked up to be? Thank you,

thank you so much for your honesty regarding Amway. Last night these vultures were actually in my home due to my husband. He met the gentleman in a McDonald's line. We listened to them and they kept saying that they were not a pyramid. They also told us that they make no money from the motivational information. Thanks to you and the internet these scammers will not be getting my money. How dare they pray on me. Beware of at home soccer moms. Thanks again, I will be seeing them on thurday (48 hours after our initial visit) I had to laugh about that.Boy do I have some information for them.

in reviewing your web site i still see a lot of negative ideas, issues, etc. i agree withj many of the things you present, but have one question - isn't this still easier than any job? yes it takes work but the rewards are unlimited. what i feel is that the average person doesn't belong in amway. this business is far easier than the 50 to 60 hours a week stressful job i have had for 26 years. yet what i find is that the average person wants to go to work for someone else, not be bother by anything and go home. to nme this is a waste of ones life. that is why the amway business is not for everyone.

i have been in for several years and find it greatly rewarding. yes it may be what you present...that is by many to be negatives...but i was told about them up front...and i was smart enough to see them before i got in. i really believe that the average person is not smart enough to be in busuness for their self...that is why they are average.

i feel very very fortunate to have the upline sponsorship i have...most who are retired and doing this business full time. it is really a people business, not products. when people see and understand that side of the business, it will click and become the greatest opportunity around.

i know because i am doing it and it is better than that stressful killer job i have.

by the way i am a professional engineer in the consulting business in the top 2-3% salary level. the average person doesn't do that either.

I love your site. My husband and I are about to embark on marriage counseling due to his unwillingness to give up the business. I have never believed in anything Amway had to offer, but my husband has insisted for the past 2 yrs that it is a sound investment.

One of his points was that he was doing this (the business) for "us". He was certain that no matter what involvement I chose to have, his prefomance bonus checks would keep "rolling in", even after he died. I noticed on your site a bulliten taken from the Amway Business Network that refutes what he has been led to believe. I have e-mailed the ABN asking for an official response and so far have received none. I was wondering if you know of any place this information can be found in print.

Keep up the good work, as there are many like me who look to you and Mr. Sidney Schwartz to set the record straight.

I'm a non-active distributor with Amway, and certainly not an expert about it. I neither love Amway, nor hate it. I like the analysis you've presented, but I have a question or two:

Doesn't the business manual say that I can run and build my business on my terms? Couldn't I build the business without the "help" of my upline? And why would my upline want to force me out of their system if I'm producing numbers that actually benefit them?

Has anyone ever written about their success in just retailing the product? I've never heard anyone talk about direct selling and salesmanship at an Amway function.

Thanks for your great analysis and thought. I'd appreciate your ideas if you have the time.

Our "new neighbor "just offered to "help" us out... She and her business associate came for coffee and cheesecake and explained that they just love "helping" people, that's why they were going to show me how to become financially independent. Everything they said made perfect sense (red flag #1), and seemed to good to be true although they swore that it was (red flag #2). I was convinced to listen to some tapes and attend their weekly meeting. The meeting was a grown-up version of my high-school cheerleading pep rallies (red flag #3). I knew myself well-enough to admit to them that "doing this as a business" was not for me. I was not interested in "selling", or calling friends and family to "help" them out either. However, I was interested in obtaining items I was already buying anway, 20% to 30% cheaper. Amway, they told me, could do this for me. I could get something for nothing (red flag #4). Hmmmm....

We took the "Neilson comparison rating" and several of their price lists to our local grocery store and soon discovered that purchasing through Amway would cost us 20% to 30% more. That's right, folks, MORE. Of course, the comparision didn't show that. But, then again, the Amway products were compared to expensive name brand items. No sales figured in, no coupons, no basic brand comparisons.

Needless to say, we declined all their "help". I'm sure they're out there right now offering to "help" someone else. We are writing this in hopes that if they are offering to "help" you, and you are reading this, we can save you some research and alot of heartache.

Here's one last rah-rah-rah...

Thanks for providing a site where we could express ourselves and confirm through the experiences of others that Amway isn't the dream it claims to be. Keep up the good work. Best wishes for peace, health, and contentment to you and to your family! :-)

I just joined the relatively new Home Shopping Delivered Program Amway offers. I have read much of the material you offer on your website and it really scares me. However, I am still going to give it a shot, but I will be doing it the way I want do it. I have promised myself to follow the ethics established and be completely honest about the program. I am anxious to see how far that gets me. I am not a big fan of the Amway rallying methods, even though I have yet to attend. I am attending a local meeting of successful Amway distributors next week and I am very curious to see how it goes. I will not tolerate myself or my wife to be subject to situations such as the ones I have read about on your website. What I like about this opportunity is that I will be able to do it like I want to do it. Honestly, Informatively, and hopefully Successfully. Let me know if you would like me to keep you posted on my Amway evolution. Thanks!

i wish i would have found your site a lot earlier in my life i would be a lot richer in knowing the whole story and not just what was pushed down my throat i once bought tickets to a thing (semminor) and was reading that if you cann't make it they woyld refund your money and when i asked for a refund i was given the biggest run around about it things like they only refund money on a amway thing .i thought thats what i was attending stupid me eh or you should have been there .Well i'm really sorry that i got kids and when the time came i could not find some one to watch my kids and the biggest thing is that you are not alowed to bring your kids .all i ever heard was think about your kids future how can i when thats the way you get treated as for the tapes yes they tried real hard to get me to buy them but that wasn't good enought they want you on a standing order list so you get them like once a week needless to say i hate all amway people for the way i was treated the up line is way too pushy always push,push,push but now that i have read just a small amount of what you have to offer i feel happy to know that some one else feels the same way ITCHY:-}

I enjoy reading you web pages and find your information and perspective extremely useful. You and Sidney Schwartz and all the others who are trying to put a realistic face on the Amway "opportunity" are to be commended.

But I have a seriuos question. I've heard all about the idolization and worship and adoration and trust that distributors are supposed to give to their uplines... and I've similarly heard numerous stories about marital strife in couples where either one isn't or won't join or leaves the Amway family and the trusted upline "councils" the couple to divorce. Isn't this a ripe situation for the trusted upline to prey, sexually, on the downline distributor? Perhaps a male direct or Emerald or diamond manipulating and taking advantage of a female distributor struggling with a failing marriage? Has this happened? How could it not happen, given the social/dependency structure of the organization? Have you come across such stories from current or ex-distributors?

Thank you so much for the information in your web page. I've probably spent at least five hours going over it. My husband and I have been approached numerous times in the past three years about joining Amway, even attending a few rallies (everything in the "untold stories" web page I have viewed first hand). Although it was completely implied and understood, the sponsors would never admit that it was in their own best interest that we become a part of their downline. We actually believe that the theory of network marketing is a wonderful idea, but not when it depends on deceiving people to succeed. Amway should rely more on providing people with an affordable service rather than conning people into conning people. I was just approached again about Amway and was considering joining when I decided to "research" the good and the bad. Which is how I found your web page. Once again, thank you.

I'm currently building my business and some of the examples that you showed are not accurate. On how many diamonds there are in kansas, you list 0 and I know of three that are upline in our organzation that reside here in kansas. You know, you are right about different organaztions. I was in World wide dream builders last year and they did not give a flip about me. But i did not lose faith, I watch a good friend of mine go direct in a year and he was able to have his wife retired early because he replaced her income plus more. I finally got out of the WWDB group and transfered over and have seen a totally different side of the business, the thing that got me really convinced and wanting me to build my business is because my upline diamond is only a few years older than me and he went diamond in 3 years. We also don't do the 6-4-2 plan, we do a 9-4-2 plan and bonuses usually hover around $2500-$3198 a month. I'm not putting you down or anything on your views, because they are your views. But I beleave in this business and one day I too will be a diamond. I could'nt have ask for a better group to be in.


I was an Amway distributor for 2 years. My husband was introduced to it at the office, and we thought it could get me out of babysitting and into my own career. WRONG! We spent alot of money on rotten products, and sales aids, and worked our but off to make a lousy $8.00!!

I quit the business after 2 years, and now have discovered after 1 year of studying ingredients and product safety that Amway has some of the worst ingredients in their products! I looked up an ingredient on the ZOOM label, the material safety data sheet said it was a 3 out of 4 as far as being hazardous! They put ether in their LOC of all things...and I actually thought it was safe to use!

We were always being tole how much money we could make, and we got so sick of hearing that, and sick of delivering products to people. The whole experience really soured me on network marketing.

BUT, now 3 years later, and after doing a year of research on ingredients, product safety, MLM's, and the integrity and stability of companies I have found a wonderful company I'm doing business with...and my first check was for $44 and I didn't do a thing but give out a few catalogs. The people ordered, had the earth friendly and chemical free products shipped to their door via UPS, and free of shipping charges, and I got a check from the company!

The best thing is this company doesn't push how rich you can get, they push the safety of their products, and after reading the material safety data sheets on them, they really are safe! AND, anyone can order at the same price as a distributor without being one, and there is no fee to sign up. Better Parenting just did a study of work at home programs and found this company to be the best opportunity available.

So, I now have remewed faith in MLM's, they are not all scams like Amway is. I am making more money that I would ever have dreamed of with Amway, and I don't have to do anything more than give away catalogs to have customers and downline consultants! I am very happy that companies like this one still exist!

I have a brother-in-law and a half sister that are deeply immersed in Amway. It has gotten to the point where I can no longer call them up and talk to them like I used to; they just want to tell me about the goings-on in Amway, and it all bores me to tears.

Aforementioned brother-in-law joined Amway... I forget how long ago... as a function of his frustration with medicine. He's sick and tired of the insurance hassles (a common theme amongst physicians, I know), and wanted an option out.

Mind you, the two of them are no common fools; when I was growing up, he was the only person I knew that could solve Rubik's Cube. She has an IQ higher than mine (which is in the 99.9th percentile anyway, just to give you an idea). She has a college degee, and he is a board-certified physician in a major metropolitan area, and has been otherwise successful as a doctor.

They've always wanted more money. Neither are religious; they still don't go to church, but, having hatched three kids, they _do_ celebrate the Jewish holidays, which they never did before they had kids- and never did before Amway.

I'm not sure what to make of all of it. All he can talk about is how they're moving in to South Africa (he recently came back from a trip there where they recruited physicians in the nation a couple of weeks ago). I just can't talk to them anymore; cults always made me itch, and they just drive me crazy.

Don't know if they're making any money on this; don't even know how well they're doing. Actually, I'm sure they're making _something_, but it can't be much given how much they travel and spend on books and tapes and other motivational crap.

Anyway. Just thought I'd let you know. Thanks again.

I requested a refund on a distributorship and got 100% of the money returned! I did not go to either the sponsor or the direct. I went directly to Amway itself. Amway cut the Refund check. Although I offered to return what was left out of the "lit" they never referred to it. I did tell them there were no products left, but they cut the check without comment. The Refund was for all of the kit - lit and products. This tells me that "distributor-employees" who want their money back can get all of it back if they file the Refund Request directly with Amway. They DO NOT need to return ANY of the kit to get their money if they request their Refund from Amway directly! Ken Lowndes

PS: This was on a "distributor-employeeship" purchased in my wifes name only in 1994-5, so we could secure the latest contract, and other lit. We FAXED Amway to obtain the Refund. They returned out money about 3 weeks later, without comment.

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Lowndes '98
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I have a friend who has just started in the Amway business and thinks it's the "Best business in the world". Of course he plans to go direct in 18 months and has been convinced that all his previous questions have been answered successfully. He's a conservative spender and doesn't have large debt, and I always thought he was fairly intelligent. What is the best thing I can do to support him as a friend yet do what I can to help him not to be hurt by this "brainwashing"? His friends already feel he is starting to abandon time with them and he just says he is helping his family be closer and stronger. "Families can be close and strong without Amway", I've told him. Maybe I can show him some of this sight's info. But I am afraid he will just think I'm the "devil" and I'm trying to "ruin his dreams" while he continues to "think positive" about his future now.

What to do . . .

Thanks for a well-presented site.....I know a lot of young and innocent new Amway distributors can benefit from it. I could share you a my whole story about how I got involved in the Amway business and how I have lost it all: my money, my family, friends and much more.

But I think it suffices to say that unless to want to trade your SOUL and all your life for MONEY (that is if you could ever make any MONEY from doing Amway), then Amway IS NOT AT ALL a business to be in.

I strongly urge those who are at the beginning stages in Amway to research and believe the neutral FACTS that are done on this web site and many others, instead of BLINDLY LISTENING to your up-line when it comes to good and unbiased information.

I have visited Sidney Schwartz's site and many others which cast doubts on the Amway business and its claims. Just as an upline of mine said once, "Any business can make a million dollars 'on paper'...", any company or organization can be made to look like a cult, or rip-off.

I will give you credit, though, for at least making a genuine effort to find out the facts. Many of the statements you make about the business are totally accurate, and you have the common sense to admit where there are things you might not have all the information you need. Because of this, I feel it is worth responding to you.

I am an Amway distributor in Australia, and am linked to one of the large systems in the USA. I have been in the business for four years, and am only now just qualifying at the 6% level. After spending easily in excess of $10,000 on the business in different ways, and having not built much of a relationship with my upline, you would think that I qualify as one of Sidney's new disciples...not a chance.

I will deal with a few of your points in summary (admitting I have only had a quick read of your articles):


I have heard the Dun & Bradstreet rating line used in presentations a few times, but have only heard it used to prove the Amway Corporation's solvency - nothing more, nothing less. If you haven't already, you need to see how many billion-dollar corporations pay their accounts (all of them) within seven days. I think maybe DuPont was the only other one, but not now (check this out). You have to ask yourself that if a company was interested in money, money, money, why doesn't it hold onto its cash for as long as possible (we are talking serious dollars I'm sure for interest on billions in bank accounts and on Short Term Money Market)?

Even if it is against the rules of conduct to mention it, it is a very valid point - you might like to find out how many multi-levels have come and gone in 40 years, leaving distributors in the hole. Of course, you can't compare yourself with business that don't exist anymore.


It is inaccurate to use Amway's SA-4400 (or whatever) to analyse incomes for distributors. Just like comparing McDonald's and Burger King, the method of operation is more important than the product in most cases. Organisations which are substantial (such as Yager, Britt, Dornan or Schwartz - no relation, I'm sure - in Europe), are based on very good principles of duplication, as you know.

Some systems guage their growth on the number of applications signed, some on product volume, and some on tape and book numbers. But for the big ones, the result is usually the same - by the time someone has qualified at the Emerald or Diamond level, there is at least one or two 'trunk legs' with usually a large number of directs (or Emeralds and even Diamonds) in it. To give you an example, my upline diamond is believed to have about 200 directs in his organization. In my estimation of his background and growth in the business, he probably had at least 100 by the time he qualified as a Diamond. Now, there are good Emerald business and bad emerald businesses, but I heard it said once that a leg is only really a leg once it has an Emerald in it. If you are talking about incomes, talk about what the leadership considers "real" businesses, and put an emerald in each leg, not a direct.

I've seen directs and pearls say things about income potential which are inaccurate...but they pay the price in credibility and therefore in growth in the long term.

By the way, when someone who is a direct or ruby comes to you with their hard-luck story about the business "not working for them", that's my personal (not indoctrinated) opinion. I don't care if they've built a bigger group than I have, if they haven't got an emerald broken in at least two legs, they aren't in the REAL professional networking zone, i.e. to me they have no credibility.

One more note on incomes of qualifying distributors - If you are really qualifying properly as an Emerald or Diamond, you have a swag of side volume going - not just direct volume. It was reputed that Ken Stewart (hi to anyone in his group) had a further 67 legs outside his Crown Ambassador business to which he was paying bonuses. As my upline Diamond says "Don't underestimate what you will need to do to get this built."


My God - no directs in Guatemala !!?

I think you'll find the true numbers on Diamonds in Amway to be around 800-900 worldwide (just a guess but should be close).


I'm always puzzled by this - the fact that people make money on tools is IN OUR FIRST NIGHT LITERATURE that we give to prospects. Don't forget that being in the tools business does not make you a direct - being in the AMWAY business does. Therefore, the Amway business is the horse, the tools are the cart.

The Australian Tax Office (like your IRS, only they don't where Ray-Bans), is fully appraised of the Amway business operations, including tools, and allows tax deductions on tapes, books, etc only after a suitable level has been reached in the Amway business.

It's probably more legal than you might think.

My upline diamond stood up on stage at an open meeting one night in front of distributors and prospects, held up a tape and said "Do you REALLY think it costs six dollars to make and distribute one of these tapes? Of course not - it's the INFORMATION that we sell for six dollars."

So what happens to the profits? Well, I know for a fact that for two of the biggest organizations in Australia (IDA - part of the Yager system - and Network 21) use that money partly to fund incentive trips for distributors. For about 10 years, IDA head Bert Gulick paid for any couples who qualified (at or around direct level, roughly speaking) to travel to Hawaii for a week. Ever costed flying in distributors from the UK, New Zealand, Australia, Asia and putting them up in a good hotel for a week, plus flying in other Diamonds etc. at your own expense? Network 21 I believe have done the same. Now, add to that the bonuses already paid to directs, and that's an amazing deal.

I know for a fact that Schwartz in Europe does similar things, as do all the others, I'm sure. For the most part, a lot of that money is re-invested in the people who have worked hard. I know (and a lot don't) of a Diamond who put approx US$100,000 of his own money into hosting a weekend for a small group of his directs. If you had the opportunity of following some of the Diamonds around, and they don't know you're watching, you'd find that most are the real deal. Believe me, I've checked.

This gets to the point that Sidney Schwartz and a lot of the complainers just don't get - THIS BUSINESS PAYS YOU AT THE END OF THE MARATHON, NOT THE BEGINNING. Life does not owe you anything, and if it does owe you, it ain't going to pay up soon. The business is the same as any other commission-based business, i.e. pay on results. Amway and the organizations around the world do not consider you to be a professional networker of any form until you reach at least the direct level.


One statement answers that:

"If you believed as strongly in your own beliefs as they do in theirs, it wouldn't bother you."

There is no requirement to be a Republican or Christian or whatever in the business - in fact, most organizations are very stand-offish about it, which is why they have an optional Christian service on Sunday mornings after functions. I go to all of those services, but I don't go to Church - no-one has ever tried to get me to their Church or anything like that. But let's face it - if you really believe in God, and you really believe it's a matter of life and death, it's going to be hard for them to keep their mouth shut.

I find it incredible that people complain about what they've given and that they didn't get anything in return. The principle of giving is to give, not to get. As I said, I've spent a lot of money on things where my upline said "Don't be hasty..." but I spent it anyway. Amway did not cost me that money, I did. Last time I looked, you needed to be of legal age to get into Amway. I think that a lot of people should grow up and think for themselves once in a while.

There's a lot more that I could go on about, but I'll leave it there - it's getting long-winded.

You have my e-mail address, please feel free to respond with questions, etc.

I would be more than happy to correspond with any people who have questions or concerns about the business. There doesn't seem to be much of a recourse for people who want the other side of your "other side".

For people with questions or concerns, they can email me on ****** - I'd prefer to stay anonymous to not upset people by using comparisons, etc. Don't worry, I'm not going to prospect you (which is probably why I'm only 6%!)

Take care Charles!

As a so-called "Profit Sharing Direct" distributor in Amway who actually made peanuts at this pin level, what I don't miss the most at all those functions are all the phoney "we luv yas," hugs and kisses and especially the spectacle of thousands of homeless, star-struck, "future diamonds" holding hands and swinging sideway in unison, singing "God bless America." Yes, "you can do it" and we did. My wife and I got out of Amway and are making over $l,000 per week networking with ******, a non-drug, effective, affordable weight loss product. And, no books, no tapes, no functions, no hugs and kisses, no luv-yas, no barber-shop singing required.

Thanks for taking your time and energy to put together such an informative and helpful site on-line. My wife and I were approached by some friends about "The Plan." They are very sweet people, and they did not try to force us into joining. It was all very soft sell. We met with them about five times and I attended one local meeting. All the information we recieved was doled out a small piece at a time and always seemed incomplete. Luckily, my wife wanted to see the numbers as to the workings of this business. However, none of the tapes, videos or brochures spelled out the details. Some of the details were included in the big catalog, but we were told that those rules did not apply to us. Many questions remained. What was the discount structure. All we knew was that the average discount is 30%, and the average discount on items in the big catalog is 17%. Despite numerous requests, we never got more information on discounts. And once we saw the high prices and shipping fees in the catalog, any advantage from the discount disappeared. Also, the stuff in the catalog is top of the line products, but we save lots of money by not buying top of the line all the time. We wanted to know what kind of volume you needed to sell to get bonus points, etc. ? What about the 10-customer rule? We were told it was not enforced, but evidently many of the people who have contributed to this site were told the same thing .

Just about the time we were thinking "Why not?", we found your web site and all the misgivings we were feeling were confirmed. I'm just glad that we didn't waste lots of time and money trying to chase a carrot at the end of a stick. I'm certain that there are people in the Amway business who become self sufficient and succesful. I, like many others, listened to the tapes loaned to me and felt quite motivated. But we had the same experience as others who have E-Mailed you: NOBODY TALKED ABOUT SELLING PRODUCTS ! What I have learned is that Amway is selling a dream. Some make it to the top and many many more don't. Even the ones who "make it" and brag about not working are still working at being motivational speakers who need to leave their familys to go to work just like the rest of us. What's the diff?

I try to be the most positive person I can be, and I'm positively certain that joining the Amway team would have been a grave mistake for my family and me. If you want to spend more time with your kids, then spend more time with your kids. If you want more money then you need to work smarter and possibly harder, whether it's working at selling Amway or at another job. Personally, I love my work. I know many people do not enjoy that luxury, but until I find something better I'm gonna keep focused on growing my own business -- not someone else's.

Thanks again for your insight. I owe you one.

I found some of the items on your web page rather interesting; however, many of the facts (or perhaps unfacts) that I read I did already know. I am sorry to read about so many people having bad experiences with the amway business. I have been involved with it for nearly 2 years, have done very little with it, and of course have made very little. Although I will say that on the few ocassions that I have worked the business, the business has worked quite well. As I'm sure you know when a new distributor is signed up, he is to be informed of the BSMAA. I am sure to emphasize how optional system materials are. From my personal experiences, though, there does seem to be a direct relationship between the amount of materials (tapes, mainly) moved in a group and how fast that group grows. Building the business, in my opinion, is not easy; and yet when I see how some peoples lives are changed and improved I once again understand why I am proud to be a part of it. Not many things worthwhile are easy and this is no exception. But I do personally know some poeple who have been in it for less time than me, have seriously worked it, and have made some good money (and continue to do so). I like both the poeple and the tapes from the business. I hope you won't hold this against me....

Hello (again),

Also, you may be interested in knowing the way we (in our group) "STP", within the first few minutes of the meeting we mention this being "amway". Also, we mentoin HSD now one of the biggest parts of the business. Do you know what HSD is in regaurds to amway?

For the most part on your web page you do come across as very bitter. And yet you still do have many facts on your page that I consider common knowledge of the business -- perhaps this is only in my group or for me personally. I guess if what is presented on your page is a worst case senerio then I am certainly solidified in this business. If you could only feel as strongly as I do for some of the people I have sponsored. Perhaps you would not have a problem listing a few other businesses in which you could become such good friends with people and truly care about them so much.

When you come up with the income on the Emerald and Diamond bonuses, are you are leaving out the profit from tools? The way my upline emerald explained it to me there is money made from them (I would hope so because in my opinion they are expensive!(until you consider the VALUE in them although that will probably vary from person to person)).

Put simply -- there are alot of what appear to be lies that were told to you that nobody ever tried to pass off to me. Once again I am sorry to read that you are so bitter towards this business. I beleive it is what you make of it, such is true in nearly every situation as very few are black and white. And still, at the risk of contradicting myself, much of this business is black and white to me. Perhaps that is only because I have a good upline.

As far as I can tell what you are pursuing here you beleive to be the right thing to do. I wish you and your wife much happiness in your lives.