NOTE: These America Online posts from the Religion/HInduism/Siddha Yoga (1) folder are responses to the 2 Open Letters which are archived on the ex-cult Web page (http://ex-cult.org/Groups/SYDA-Yoga/). NOTE FURTHER: The following posts appeared on the AOL SYDA folder from 8/95 to 9/95. The chronology of the posts in this file is not always in correct sequence. This file has been edited and focuses on dissent against SYDA Yoga. It does not include all the posts that appeared originally. However, it does include many of the posts in support of SYDA, along with most of the posts that spoke out against abuse and corruption in SYDA. Subj: Re:About SYDA Yoga Date: 95-08-02 18:35:12 EDT From: Wolfddy Thank you for your open letter regarding SYDA. As a relatively new devotee, I appreciate having as much information as possible, whether it be fact, fiction or faction with repects to the leaders, participants and followers of Muktananda and/or Guru Mayi. And your point is well taken. However.... What I am reminded of is: One: that all forms of human spirituality are just that - human, full of human nature, human fallibility, human ecstasy, human perceptions, human thought/action. Even "realized masters," regardless of their internal/spritual lives, still have to deal with the human body that binds them to this earth, and all that goes with it. She has said herself that as human beings, we have to deal with the temptations/attachments of all five (if not six) or our senses, (which in my experience can get pretty complex rather quickly in the right circumstances). Two: all the misdealings and inappropriate behaviors/actions your members have spelled out don't surprise me. What religious organization is free of such things? What religious organization would readily and freely admit to such things? This too is part of human nature. You can't take the people out of the spiritual practice (it is a practice after all, isn't it?) This is not to say it is right or justifiable (it's not), just that it isn't confined to SYDA. Finally: from what I understand, Baba chose Guru Mayi because he knew she would be able to take Siddha Yoga into the next century and into the Western mind. In my experience, the Western mind is about acquisition, achievement and advancement. As Westerners we're trained to think that if we don't pay dearly for our salvation, it just ain't the real thing. With that in mind, it sounds like she's doing her job. No one is holding a gun to my head to take part in the spiritual life I have discovered through Guru Mayi. No one is forcing me to give all my material goods to the Guru. She affects me completely, yet I am not compelled to think I need to spend a gazillion dollars to gain her grace. In my experience, grace is free and readily given. I am a free-thinking human being who can take what I need, leave the rest and have boundaries around everything in between. My spirituality rests within, and is not dependant on gaining the personal attention of the Guru or her organization. I choose to separate the organization from the spirituality I gain through my experience in/around the ashram and Guru Mayi. Baba said to be vigilant. And that we choose the lives we lead. Choose wisely. With that said, I want to thank you again for your information. I hope it will assist others as it has assisted me. Good luck to you all. om namah shivaya. Subj: Re:About SYDA Yoga Date: 95-08-02 19:57:28 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 2 - Thoughts about the open letter Dear authors of the open letter, I extend to you my sympathies for the abuse you have suffered at the hands of Gurumayi, and congratulate you on having the strength of character to share what you know. I will not insult you by shifting the blame to the organization; rather, I sadly acknowledge with you that it is Gurumayi who is responsible. Based on my decades of observation, I believe every word of what you are saying. You have taken great risks to go against such a dangerous organization. I admit I am not as brave as you. For decades I have had a dynamite sadhana full of all kinds of experiences even though I have been openly critical of Gurumayi (and other problematic guru types). Siddha yogis--you don't need to be afraid that your experiences will stop if you begin to think freely, openly, and critically, about the guru--or about any life matter that is important to you. Also remember: just because you experience a movement of prana--kriyas, visions, bliss--in the ashram or around Gurumayi is no proof that Gurumayi is a spiritual adept. Even a direct experience from Gurumayi--seeing lights around her, dreaming of her, feeling force from her touch or glance--should not be taken as proof of her yogic attainment. Space prevents me from detailing how I know this to be a fact. I will limit myself to saying: please take the time to verify this by looking around at other yogic sites. Kundalini yoga is fascinating, and worthy of our full and open-minded attention. To suddenly take on an entire belief system on the basis of a strong spiritual experience or two is short-sighted and dangerous. SEE PART 2 Subj: Re:About SYDA Yoga Date: 95-08-02 19:58:41 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 2 - Thoughts about the open letter This open letter has given all of us an opportunity to reaffirm our dedication to the marvelous experiences and positive principles of yoga, and to detach yet further from unwanted attitudes and beliefs. I know that many have nourished their fantasies about Gurumayi's qualities to such an extent that they may have no defense but to say to the authors of the open letter: "you are responsible for the bad experiences you have had," or "you are projecting your own inadequacies on to the guru." These defenses are cruel; that is, to blame victims for being victimized is cruel and, worse, allows the abuses to continue. I say to the authors of the open letter "thank you, for caring enough about the welfare of others to take the tremendous risk of informing them of what you know." I do pity Gurumayi, whose ongoing manipulative activities suggest that she herself is an unhappy victim of the insane role that was thrust upon her, and of earlier abuse. "Oldtimers" will know what I mean. I pray that God will help her--and those who believe she is qualified to give them spiritual instruction--find a way out of the pain-giving, symbiotic delusion described in the open letter. And for those who have had a good time "so far" with SYDA--is it ethical for you to be enjoying yourselves off of the sweat and suffering of the abused inner circle of sevites? As Gurumayi often says: "think about it." Subj: The True Guru Date: 95-08-02 21:28:12 EDT From: Charlie 47 Sounds simple to me. God dwells within you as you. See God in each other. What a terrible lesson! What a wonderful lesson! I'm sure that there are still some slow learners out there. Oh well, at least my wheelbarrow isn't full of dirt. With love, Charlie Subj: Re:About SYDA Yoga Date: 95-08-02 22:33:38 EDT From: E2233 Wolfddy says: "One: that all forms of human spirituality are just that - human, full of human nature, human fallibility, human ecstasy, human perceptions, human thought/action. Even "realized masters," regardless of their internal/spritual lives, still have to deal with the human body that binds them to this earth, and all that goes with it. She has said herself that as human beings, we have to deal with the temptations/attachments of all five (if not six) or our senses, (which in my experience can get pretty complex rather quickly in the right circumstances)." I understood from the SYDA literature and scriptures that the Guru is perfect, the Absolute, omniscient, omnipotent, all-pervasive, unborn, eternal, formless, etc. So there seems to be a contradiction here. You say: " As Westerners we're trained to think that if we don't pay dearly for our salvation, it just ain't the real thing. With that in mind, it sounds like she's doing her job." Are we supposed to pay with our integrity, our sanity, our dignity; are we supposed to allow ourselves to be sexually exploited? You can say she's doing her job if her job is supposed to be ripping lots of people off. She's doing a great job of that. Whatever teachings are worthwhile in SYDA are not practiced by its gurus, that is for sure. It's not the teachings that should be shunned, but how, and more importantly, why, do you exonerate these gurus? If your daughter had been molested in the ashram and Gurumayi had told her it was her fault and not to tell anyone, would you exonerate the Guru? Why? You sound courteous but I wonder if you have other feelings, less "spiritual" ones, about the letter? It seems to me that denial and suppression of anger or even hatred also diminishes the capacity to truly love. In my experience, SYDA can reduce you to about as narrow and false a range of emotions as you can get without actually being dead. Think about it. Subj: Re:About SYDA Yoga Date: 95-08-02 20:01:31 EDT From: LD3140 Dear Warrior for the truth, Thank you for your courage and honesty and clarity as expressed in your letter "about Siddha Yoga". People who have not experienced the 'heat' of being close to the inner workings and circle of SYDA and its leader and director and policy maker, Gurumayi are not aware of much of what you revealed and thank you again for doing so. They also don't realize that Gurumayi knows every detail of what goes on and indeed instigates it. There are people who do know about this abusive and dishonest behavior and still deny it. The dependency encouraged by Gurumayi, and Baba before her, continues to rob people of their power of discrimination, i.e. good jugdment. I know this from personal experience as a devotee for many years. It can take a long time to let the truth sink in because of the pain of disillusionment. I also know from personal experience that it is worth the pain for the true autonomy and freedom I have gained. Your work toward the truth as shown in your letter gives me inspiration and hope . Subj: Spiritual Warriors? Date: 95-08-02 22:39:22 EDT From: Ego2go Give Me a Break: I think I missed something here. What's this about spiritual warriors? A true warrior wouldn't hide behind a ficticious screen name. A true warrior would put himself in harms way. This is just more of the same. More gossip courtesy of those with poor discrimination and a terminal case of naivete looking for someone to blame. The Guru is ruthless. The Guru knows no rules. Thank you for the information. It's nothing new. It doesn't surprise me. Now you can look for someone to hug you. You'll feel much better. Om Namah Shivaya Subj: Re:Spiritual Warriors? Date: 95-08-02 22:51:35 EDT From: Ego2go I don't consider myself a spiritual warrior. I am a seeker of truth. I trust my own discrimination. I hurt for you. Not because of what was done but because you carry it with you. I react to ignoranace. I look for my lessons. Thank you for sharing your pain and I wish you God's speed in letting it go. Best wishes in filling your wheelbarrow with God's love. Ganesh Subj: Re:About SYDA Yoga Date: 95-08-02 20:58:28 EDT From: Paulibus Thank you all for the courage of this discussion. I am grateful for the experiences I have had as a result of my involvement wih Siddha Yoga. That will always be with me. Abuse is abuse and is inexcusable no matter what cloak it may wear. It remains true that power corrupts. It is sad that what should be a loving and joyful journey can be so perilous. I have watched some of the other boards in the Hinduism forum with interest about their struggles and have not seen the same degree of angst. God lives in you as you. The self does not change. Egos and deluded minds may go on the rampage, however. I hope we can challenge and encourage each other on the spiritual path. with great love and respect. Subj: Re:About SYDA Yoga - Part 1 of 5 Date: 95-08-02 11:00:15 EDT From: LNG 81 Dear Friend My own experience with Siddha Yoga need not be explained in any way except to say, I have the mantra ,I was blessed with Shatipat, and every day in my life is a gift. I think the most important aspect of the New Yorker article was near the end where the author made the point that a middle class Indian would go listen to a Guru, return home and immediatly divest themselves of 50% of what the Guru said. Middle class Americans buy it hook,line ,and sinker...usually later winding up disappointed. This is not the first Guru busted for sexual activity with the hot white women. What gets me steamed is the trauma that relationships have suffered in the guise of 'spiritual progress'. How did India wind up with 900 million people anyway ? Immaculte conception ? By the way what chased me away from the Ashram was all the strident , invasive,rushing , pushy, devotees and Sevites. Like , Ashram is translated to mean ' place of relieving fatigue'. Well, I wanted that to be my experience, it oftimes wasn' t. I guess I lack 'discrimination'. LOL I support you in what you have the courage to profess. Don t forget, my dear one you still have the mantra--potent , devine and absolutly free. Watching the board with renewed interest. LNG 81 Subj: Re:About SYDA Yoga Date: 95-08-03 17:48:42 EDT From: TheCatmen Dear Friend, Thank you so much for your courage and openness. As an ex-member of the "inner circle" I can confirm your experiences. I really believed all that swill about the Guru saving me. Right! As if Being close to Gurumayi meant being in bliss!!! As you know, we all thought that only the Strong or Special ones could sustain being close to the "fire." I now know that what I thought was being close to Gurumayi, really meant asking her to test me, make me worthy, which translates as "abuse me please." It wasn't fun but it really made me feel important. I, like most of us GAVE her that liberty. I GAVE her my power. And, I trusted her with a very vulnerable thing, my spiritual direction. She is not worthy of that task. Her duplicity and double messages hooked me. Although I believe that the path of change happens from the inside, a part of me wanted someone else to do the work. Gurumayi's message that she would lift Karmas and lead me to the other side made me believe that she would save me. Since I've left I have found that only my own connection to my inner self will save me. And my life is happier and richer than I ever dreamed possible. Mostly because I can FEEL things. When I left, I had to face all the pain and anguish that sent me packing to a spiritual being in the first place. No more mind numbing mantras or seva to keep me occupied. It was my LIFE and CHIOCES before me. Scary. But the true spiritual path. And I' m FINE without Gurumayi. I didn't believe that anything could be better than Siddha Yoga. Like you, I now know that feeling GREAT about MYSELF is BETTER than any seductive meditation or chant. Getting to it is hard work, but my spirit is stronger now and more informed. I feel that there is a different kind of spirituality that is possible when one approaches a path from the place of being healed and MATURE. Mature means facing dissapointment and moving through pain. Thanks again for taking the risk to speak so openly about the truth. You have done a great service. It took me a long time to have the strength to let the truth sink in and leave Siddha Yoga. It was the best thing I ever did. Howie, thanks for your mercilessly honest and perceptive look at this old SYDA standby we all take for granted. You are getting at some deep and important truths that are obfuscated in SYDA in destructive ways. I would like to say this. That some people, even dissenters on this board, are phobic about anger. Everything has to be neutral, serene, at equilibrium, everything has to be said in such a way that everything is everything, nothing is nothing, everything is nothing, and everything cancels out everything else. Anger is a human emotion which has power. People in SYDA are afraid to be angry because they are terrified to claim their own power. They usually enter the place feeling completely powerless. So they give all the power of their love, and all the power of their threatening emotions, to the Guru, who greedily sucks up the devotees' power and uses that power to perpetuate the myth of her own perfection. From my experience and from what others have said here, it is obvious that Gurumayi is a false guru. It is apparent in the blind, deaf and dumb denial of her devotees, and their willingness to block out any information that might disturb their own selfish piece of the bliss pie. I recommend a really wonderful book by Steve Hassan, entitled "Combatting Cult Mind Control". Hassan is a very spiritual person, involved in a Buddhist path, who is a leading expert on cults. Subj: Back to the point Date: 95-08-03 01:34:01 EDT From: Dissent670 Ego2go, your post is a wonderful example of SYDA brainwash yogaspeak. Please don't take that personally - you are far from alone. Brainwash is happening at SYDA. Let's look at it. I look at your latest post and every line is "spiritually correct". Nobody can really object to it, and you come off smelling like a rose from Gurumayi's garden - yet you are not saying anything. Has anyone noticed how increasingly difficult it is becoming in SY to relate to one another straightforwardly, uninhibitedly, spontaneiously, plain-speaking, without pablum descending from above? We are blinding ourselves with this kind of talk, numbing our wills - and lo and behold, it is the kind of talk Gurumayi encourages. It shuts people out. I know because I encounter and feel it again and again in this folder and in SYDA ashrams. Ego2go, you have a point questioning my choice of anonymity. Experience has demonstrated that emotional maturity does not foster well in foolhardiness. Because I know that SYDA is not above retributions, I choose, as the authors of the open letter wisely did, to exercise my free speech under cover. The disclosure of repressed information, and open discussion of SYDA abuses AND OUR COMPLICITY IN THEM is more important than identities at this time, in my judgement. Those wishing to distract and detract from the message will predictably disagree. There are many many cross-currents operating under the guise of spiritual correctness which bear scrutiny, and none of us knows the scope of suffering beneath the spiritual facades. The open letter hinted at it, and I believe these investigations are vital unless we think Siddhaloka is populated with denial-loving sycophants. The question remains: why is Gurumayi perpetuating a lie about her own perfection? Subj: Re:Open Letter Date: 95-08-03 08:21:01 EDT From: Marvin26 Many thanks to the authors of the Open Letter to SYDA Yoga. While I find this information disturbing, I also am grateful. I have practiced S.Y. for about 4 years. I didn't even know that Gurumayi even had a brother until I had been involved for about 2 years! I read athe New Yorker article when it came out last year and was troubled then.That uneasiness continued and I have been in the process of de-Sidda-ing (?) myself for the past 3 months. My relationship with my partner is better and I am feeling happier as time goes on. In the past I have done an incredible amount of seva but it seemed that more was always asked. As a person living with AIDS I finally had to start saying "no" to the seva "opportunities"offered to me. It just became too much. During one of my visits to S.F. I was told that because of my HIV infection I had to stay in a room alone. They said that it was for my protection."Ashrams are breeding grounds for all kinds of things" and that they felt it would be better for my health to not be exposed to other people in a non-private room. I was not allowed to serve food--even though it is known that HIV is not transmitted through casual contact. If I was concerned about catching something why would I even go to a place with several thousand people? The bottom line is that they do discriminate against certain groups of people. If they were truly concerned about me why was I put in Sadhana Kutir--the farthest building away from where all the programs were. Staying on the fourth floor in the back in the corner did not help me, it forced me to climb several flights of stairs daily. Trying to get to programs meant I had to get up very early in order to get from Sadhana Frontier to the Main Building. Could'nt thay have isolated me in a room at the Main Building? That would have made for a much better stay. Forgive my ramblings--it's just that my disillusionment has been so profound and so painful for me. I feel for those who have suffered at the hands of "the powers that be" and for those who allowed themselves to be used and looked the other way. Good luck to all and remember that God lives in each of our hearts and to look inside for peace and fufillment. Thank you. Subj: Baba said Date: 95-08-03 03:52:34 EDT From: Sharva Love your messages, spv one billion. Just hang in there and don't go crazy. You may be enlightened but there are things you still don't know. Don't want to betray my identity, 'cause I have a very good memory of many things 'Baba said'. It is very much weighing on my mind too, that the . S. fallsburg ashram houses the archives of Baba's teaching tours. I truly miss him, as I know does Charlie 47. For me there was always a big difference between Baba and Guru Mayi. When she first became Guru I couldn't believe the stuff coming out of her mouth. Things Baba would never say, at least in public. I never saw him in private much so I can't vouch for that. I have not much to say about Nityananda Mahamadeleshswar. At least the priests had the sense to pick someone, for the successorship of the Shankaracharya lineage, who has Shaktipat. Previous poster was correct that one Shaktipat/direct experience is worth a trillion Mahamadeleshwar titles. Anyway, it a good title and I'm happy for him. He did say in reference to Guru Mayi, not in public mind you, and while doing the dishes (something I was quietly but firmly assured GM would never do)---which I believe after hearing it first hand (from her), the story of barely taking three days of, (heaven forbid!), vegetable chopping. I never did understand how she could get all these people to do Seva for her. Seva she would, by her own admission, never deign to do herself. Baba at least had the sense to profess publically that no job would be something he would not do. Maybe he said different in private, like I said , don't know What *got* me about her was her total lack of *self-conscousness* about saying in public, at least at the beginning, and before people later,) things that absolutely did not float as words of a Guru. Nobody seemed to notice. That was the bizarre thing. She didn't fit the picture of at least what we were taught from Baba, was a Guru. (No matter what anyone says about the freedom of the Guru to do anything). Anyone who says they are the same *person* need only get ahold of a complete transcript of a few of B.'s talks--if you can! Anyway Nityananda said, shyly, the bit about the spoon and the soup. This was in regard of GM being Baba's translator. I agree with him but will add he has pictures of his sister at his place and really discourages anyone from saying negative things about her. Also, until you visit there you cannot understand the level of the personal attack done to him. By people who one day professed to love him as God on Earth to becoming the most reviled disgusting specimen of revulsion. I didn't understand it on a feeling level, didn't take it seriously, until I visited his place. He did basically get rid of me, thinking I was a 'spy' for GM. I told him if I needed a Guru to treat me like dirt I could go to GM and didn't need him for that. Anyway, what Baba said was.tha... if you really knew the truth, if you really knew exactly the truth, if it was all told to you straight out, the real truth of what goes on in this world, of all the things that are and happen, you would cry. If you really knew what was the real truth, you would cry for a long time. Charlie 47 remembers Baba. Maybe it was just an image but Liz H. did say to me that none of the women, and she spoke to a lot according to her, complained. She said every woman she spoke to spoke positively of their experience with B. No complaints. Many women I know who knew B. have said, "Why not me?" In regard to George. He gave heavy duty bedroom eyes on several occasions to someone very dear to me. Also, in front of GM. It's unknown how he got away with it, but was quite startling to the 'naive'. I hope I don't get caught saying this. They may get the bad karma, but what about me, I'll be dead. The best to those who wrote the 5 page letter. It really cleared my head and increased my estimation of IQ for SYDA-ites. Doesn't it feel good? Isn't the Shakti strong, *out of there*? Subj: Re:Baba said Date: 95-08-03 07:21:24 EDT From: E2233 Lis Harris clearly reports that numerous women were traumatized by their sexual experience with Baba, not that all of them liked it. I know of one woman who left the ashram in Ganeshpuri, after Baba had sex with her. He had placed her on his table, and after he was finished, indicated he wanted oral sex. She could not do it. He gave her money and told her to buy a new sari. He said "come back tomorrow, but don't wear underwear." She tried to talk about it with others, but no one in the ashram would listen to her. They told her she was sick. She left, and had a complete nervous breakdown and was hospitalized. She's OK now, but still suffers effects of post traumatic stress. You may not believe this. Hey, no one in Germany beleived there were death camps. If only they had beleived. Those who are the truly frightened ones, the really terrified ones, are not the ones with anonymous IDs; they are the ones who refuse to believe. Subj: E2233 Date: 95-08-03 09:50:09 EDT From: Sharva Maybe you and I didn't read the same article. The fact that you say LH 'clearly states' in her article that women were traumatized, makes me doubt the rest of your posting. She clearly doesn't state that, either in the article or to me personally, when she told me that no woman who she spoke to complained and all spoke highy of their experience and were happy with it. Basically it an amusing twist on the usual sex abuse story. Many women were happy with what happened. Many women, the testimony in the article was cut from a longer piece, had ecstatic shaktipat experience. And why shouldn't they? There's nothing intrinsicallly wrong with sex. Maybe LH doesn't know the woman you refer to. I'm not saying it didn't hurt *any* woman or girl, 'cause I just don't know. Also, the people I saw it hurt, in the largest part, would have to be the disillusioned devotees.( cf. Charlie 47 (what do you think Charlie?) and many many others.) It messed up many peoples' heads. Why it didn't mess up mine, I don't know. Maybe one, I don't really think sex is bad. Two, nothing could balance the positive I received from B. Nothing. Amazing, I'm still skating on it. Still think of it in my heart, every day. Still thank him. B. gave me life as I know it today, gave me *everything*, as the saying goes. Everything I enjoy so much today is only from him. Finally, 'Baba said', "The Guru destroys your illusions." He destroyed my illusions about himself and SYDA. Without the sex revealment I'd still be seriously plugged in there. It doesn't effect my respect for the teachings (except the ones regarding sexuality and the infallibility of the Guru---remember 'B said', the Guru is not a person, one is deluded if one thinks the Guru is a person. The Guru is a position. The real Guru is God and one shouldn't confuse *that* with an individual person), nor does it effect what I have ultimately gained. Sorry for my lack of compassion for the 'victims'. It's hard for me to feel compassion for those *harmed*. One can't feel compassion for everything, nor lie about it and pretend. Neither do I feel betrayed. Neither do I feel that I have anything but gained, in my relationship to Baba. What B gave me's gonna last this whole lifetime and also, hopefully, give me a good send off. Sorry to those who would want to paint a completely negative picture. Check out the newsgroup *alt.support.ex-cult*, if you get USENET. There was, at least one, really interesting post "If God didn't want 'em sheered, he wouldn't have made 'em sheep". Subj: Wolf quote at end Date: 95-08-03 09:53:50 EDT From: Sharva There was a mistake on the last post. It was suppose to read, "If God didn't want them sheared, he wouldn't have made them sheep" ---anon. (possibly the Wolf) Subj: Re:Wolf quote at end Date: 95-08-03 11:42:58 EDT From: Greg401 That is one of the sickest things I've ever heard (not including SPV's ramblings). Does that translate to: "If God didn't want them to be raped, he wouldn't have made them beautiful young women?" Is that how you meant this metaphor? I too know women who were emotionally scarred and are still in pain over the sexual incidents that happened to them in the Ashram. Just because a child may enjoy the sexual feelings and attentions while being molested, does not in any way make the molestation right. Subj: What I Worship Date: 95-08-03 12:14:54 EDT From: Charlie 47 Thank you for your post, Sharva. It seems as though we are on the same wave legnth. I received an e-mail message from E2233 yesterday. It said, in part: If, when you say, darn that Baba, you are referring to me, the one who posted the anonymous letter about SYDA Yoga, please note: I do not wish to be in any way identified with Baba Muktananda because he was a ........... (He goes on to describe "his Baba's" perceived negativities in no uncertain terms.) My reply, in part, was as follows... Dear Whoever you are: When I refer to Baba I am speaking of the witness of the mind who is without attribute yet encompasses all form. I am speaking of your heart as well as mine. I do not worship the personality of the Guru any more than I worship the path. I appreciate your letter. I experienced mixed emotions when I read it and I am contemplating my lessons. Again, my Baba is in my heart. My Guru is in my heart. I look to my heart for both direction and approval. I would like to add something that wasn't in my reply to E2233.. To those of you that have read my previous posts it must be apparent that I love Muktananda. My experience of Siddha Yoga was a positive one. Actually is was priceless. I feel that I owe my life to Muktananda. I am very much aware of the negative experiences some other people have had. None of this is truly new to me. There are always new details of abuse but it doesn't change my personal experience. I presently spend some time at Amma's Ashram in San Ramon. She touched my heart and I'm learning some lessons. I have also started spending more time at the Oakland Ashram after an absence of about four years. I have no desire to spend time in the presence of the "physical Guru". The challenge for me is to see God in you. Baba taught me to accept. It's called unconditional love. I have to work at it constantly. It isn't easy. No one said it would be. All my relationships are getting sweeter and sweeter. I see the Guru's influence touching every aspect of my life. Baba has made my life so full! Thank you Baba! Hail the True Guru! The Guru that dwells in the hearts of all. With love, Charlie Subj: Re:E2233 Date: 95-08-03 12:41:24 EDT From: Wolfddy Hi there: Yes, I sound courteous and certainly act courteous in my day to day life. No, I'm not angry. I really liked your letter. Its generated great discussion on this board and I'm sure among followers and ex-followers of Gurumayi. I'm flattered you would quote me. But I'm afraid you missed my point: all those who participated or continue to participate in ashram life are there by choice, they are not indentured servants, nor slaves, to the guru. Its a personal thang. We've all chosen to be there in some manner or another. And by the way, the Guru is everything you say, the"Guru" being that pure heart/soul within us, that I get to experience every so often. Keeps me meditating. I'm with the India natives: take all teachings with a grain of salt and live your life to its utmost. Om namah shivaya. Subj: Re: About SYDA - to ego2ego Date: 95-08-03 16:49:40 EDT From: HenryD7890 Ego2ego has responded to the open letter in a way that shows his unfailing devotion to his gurus. Unfortunately, when he says "Thank you for the information. It's nothing new. It doesn't surprise me. Now you can look for someone to hug you. You'll feel much better, " he demonstrates a very callous attitude with astonishing disregard for the pain caused by syda gurus -and no interest in accountability - "The Guru is ruthless. The Guru knows no rules." To me this says that you must have very little compassion for your self, that perhaps your devotion to a false, cruel and despotic guru helps hide your self-hatred and low self-esteem by filling you with vicarious grandiosity. Sorry for the big words, but that's how it looks to me. Subj: Re:Open Letter - to Marvin26 Date: 95-08-03 21:09:51 EDT From: HenryD7890 Marvin, the way you were treated in the ashram is not welcoming - it's a disgrace. I am very sorry you experienced this, and I have no doubt that the dutiful accomodations wallahs were "only following orders." Thank you for letting us know of this disgraceful mistreatment. As painful as it is, you are lucky to be free of the hypocrisy of siddha yoga. Subj: Am I Perfect? Date: 95-08-03 21:14:07 EDT From: Ego2go Thank you for the criticism. I have many sides to my personality. I am not always proud of what I think or post. I have a habit of recognizing when I'm wrong. I'm wrong when I feel anger. Thanks again for your comments. I have choosen again to focus on my heart. I sincerely hope, for your sake, that you're not so quick to judge your Guru. GANESH Subj: Re:"Open Letter" PART 1/5 Date: 95-08-04 00:13:52 EDT From: Yateendra COMMENTS ON "AN OPEN LETTER," PART ONE Dear Friends: Bravo on all the brilliant "sva-vichaara" (self-inquiry) expressed on the recent "Open Letter!" I joined AOL in order to explore the message board of Mother Meera and found (not unexpectedly) a message board for my beloved Siddha Yoga. I still feel that it's "beloved," even though I'm one of the "abused" sevites mentioned in the five part "Open Letter On Siddha Yoga" which appeared yesterday. When I emerged from seven years of service in South Fallsburg, my faith in aspects of Siddha Yoga was shaken, but I've never doubted the benevolence of God and that "all things work together for good" to them that love Him (Rom 8:28). My experiences since then have shown that my interpretation of the teachings was not conducive to personal harmony. I feel that the "angle" or paradigm in which some teachings are presented is limiting, and can interact with the patterns of pettiness and tendencies toward guilt present in many of our minds, compounding the wrong understanding. But the love which I learned there through conscious effort must be real, because it hasn't turned to bitterness upon hearing the shocking news. My period of intense Siddha Yoga activity began in Ganeshpuri before and during period of Muktananda's Mahasamadhi and the succession, continuing in South Fallsburg until my dad passed away in June, 1990, and my family, observing my emaciated condition, requested that I return home. Latent self-destructive tendencies had gradually manifested during my ashram stay, bringing with them an eating disorder, guilt-driven asceticism and increased lack of self-esteem. I was physically run-down and constantly struggling with depression. I had had some premonition of this in 1977 through an Indian Security guard at my music school, who had been sent to New York by his Guru. He'd discerned my "confusion" and "destructive" tendencies and had commented, "it doesn't matter where you go" I'm grateful that the foundation of understanding and positive experiences prior to and during my Siddha Yoga service has been firm enough to sustain me in my search for spiritual solutions. I reacquainted myself with Christian Science, a system of spiritual healing through self-inquiry. The comparative study of this system has brought a broader perspective to my gleanings from SY--through this I've gradually gained in health and mental stability--heart and mind feel ahead of where I started, though body and regularity of appetite lag behind. I find in Science an independently derived, self- consistent echoing of certain lines of Eastern thought, but too circumscribed for my sole adherence. I'm currently searching in the works of Sri Aurobindo for the synthesis of my understanding to this point. My experiences have led me to reaffirm that (1) learning love is the most important purpose of human life and still the number one value in my life, and that (2) one needs to become sensitive to his/her own tendencies in feeling, thought and action, and see that these remain harmonious with each other and with God (Love). My tendency to swallow the Siddha Yoga teachings "hook, line and sinker" led to a serious loss of personal balance. I have gained insight through knowledge of Ayurveda that my subconscious feeling of unworthiness to live in the ashram (and fear of being booted out for the slightest breach of discipline) aggravated the prominent _vaata_ aspect of my constitution. PLEASE SEE PART TWO Subj: Re:"Open Letter" PART 1/5 Date: 95-08-04 00:13:52 EDT From: Yateendra COMMENTS ON "AN OPEN LETTER," PART ONE Dear Friends: Bravo on all the brilliant "sva-vichaara" (self-inquiry) expressed on the recent "Open Letter!" I joined AOL in order to explore the message board of Mother Meera and found (not unexpectedly) a message board for my beloved Siddha Yoga. I still feel that it's "beloved," even though I'm one of the "abused" sevites mentioned in the five part "Open Letter On Siddha Yoga" which appeared yesterday. When I emerged from seven years of service in South Fallsburg, my faith in aspects of Siddha Yoga was shaken, but I've never doubted the benevolence of God and that "all things work together for good" to them that love Him (Rom 8:28). My experiences since then have shown that my interpretation of the teachings was not conducive to personal harmony. I feel that the "angle" or paradigm in which some teachings are presented is limiting, and can interact with the patterns of pettiness and tendencies toward guilt present in many of our minds, compounding the wrong understanding. But the love which I learned there through conscious effort must be real, because it hasn't turned to bitterness upon hearing the shocking news. My period of intense Siddha Yoga activity began in Ganeshpuri before and during period of Muktananda's Mahasamadhi and the succession, continuing in South Fallsburg until my dad passed away in June, 1990, and my family, observing my emaciated condition, requested that I return home. Latent self-destructive tendencies had gradually manifested during my ashram stay, bringing with them an eating disorder, guilt-driven asceticism and increased lack of self-esteem. I was physically run-down and constantly struggling with depression. I had had some premonition of this in 1977 through an Indian Security guard at my music school, who had been sent to New York by his Guru. He'd discerned my "confusion" and "destructive" tendencies and had commented, "it doesn't matter where you go" I'm grateful that the foundation of understanding and positive experiences prior to and during my Siddha Yoga service has been firm enough to sustain me in my search for spiritual solutions. I reacquainted myself with Christian Science, a system of spiritual healing through self-inquiry. The comparative study of this system has brought a broader perspective to my gleanings from SY--through this I've gradually gained in health and mental stability--heart and mind feel ahead of where I started, though body and regularity of appetite lag behind. I find in Science an independently derived, self- consistent echoing of certain lines of Eastern thought, but too circumscribed for my sole adherence. I'm currently searching in the works of Sri Aurobindo for the synthesis of my understanding to this point. My experiences have led me to reaffirm that (1) learning love is the most important purpose of human life and still the number one value in my life, and that (2) one needs to become sensitive to his/her own tendencies in feeling, thought and action, and see that these remain harmonious with each other and with God (Love). My tendency to swallow the Siddha Yoga teachings "hook, line and sinker" led to a serious loss of personal balance. I have gained insight through knowledge of Ayurveda that my subconscious feeling of unworthiness to live in the ashram (and fear of being booted out for the slightest breach of discipline) aggravated the prominent _vaata_ aspect of my constitution. PLEASE SEE PART TWO Subj: Re:"Open Letter" PART 2/5 Date: 95-08-04 00:14:45 EDT From: Yateendra COMMENTS ON "AN OPEN LETTER," PART TWO It's becoming evident that the personal sadhana experiences of gurus enter into their teachings. (I had previously thought that these teachings were "divine" and able to be imbibed without careful scrutiny on the part of the student). Through comparison with other systems, I've discovered that the Siddha Yoga teachings (as I've experienced them--mainly through Gurumayi) have some "rough edges" which, taken at face value, don't harmonize with my inner being. In spite of the valid argument that different teachings reach different people, I think it's wise for Siddha students to examine the effect of certain teachings on their outlook, in light of recent revelations. Until yesterday, I largely identified Siddha Yoga as my primary "path"--the popular virtue of loyalty to a path having been firmly entrenched in my mind. However, when I read the "Open Letter"--which brings out serious breaches of ethics by the organization with the knowledge and apparent approval of Gurumayi--the ambient of which I had been subconsciously aware during my Siddha studenthood came fully to light. The Letter refers to an article by Lis Harris (New Yorker_ magazine, November 14, 1994) which provides information essential to a fuller view (I encourage readers of this message board to borrow a copy from their local library). The offense with which I identified most clearly was the continuing lack of respect and love expressed toward Swami Nityananda (the former co-successor of Siddha Yoga) by functionaries of Gurumayi. I had been uneasy about the attempt to expunge all memories of Nityananda from Siddha Yoga as lacking in honesty and ability to face the truth with intellectual maturity--reminiscent even of films of Nazi book-burning I had viewed in High School History Class! My interest in truth precludes me from instant rejection of Siddha Yoga and its teachers. In the _New Yorker_ description of Muktananda's sexual activities, only the position of the bodies seemed to have anything in common with conventional human intercourse--I can't automatically condemn what I don't understand. However, Gurumayi's double standard--her violently condemning her brother Nityananda's sexual escapades while passively condoning those of her assistant, George Afif--feels wrong. SEE PART THREE Subj: Re:"Open Letter" PART 3/5 Date: 95-08-04 00:15:32 EDT From: Yateendra COMMENTS ON "AN OPEN LETTER," PART THREE What appears necessary to healing this situation is the full invocation of mind and heart--a clear facing of the violations of dharma and a resurgence of compassion and understanding--between the parties involved (including all who have "staked their hearts" in Siddha Yoga). The outer resolution will depend largely on the willingness of individuals to use their God-given intellects and love and pray for more grace. God has always responded to the prayers of sincere seekers, regardless of the rising and falling fortunes of the communities with which they identify. I feel that I and my fellow sadhakas can rely on this for their individual healing. The community which results from this individual healing, regardless of the form (or lack of form) it takes, can only be an improvement. Clarity is very important. Love without clarity cannot flower--it smothers itself. It was a lack of clarity which allowed these transgressions to occur. Certain elements in the philosophy of Siddha Yoga can obscure clarity. I say "obscure," not "destroy," because, the truth is very rich and complex, including the creative coexistence of opposite values. I would contemplate deeply before disposing of the Siddha philosophy, based as it is on the ancient Indian tradition, but the scope and applicability of a given precept must be discovered individually. Each person must achieve a balance of understanding in their own being, tailored to their own nature and experience, which is arrived at through self-effort and grace. There are many ways to react to the issues raised in the "Open Letter." Each person will feel a wide-range of reactions, only a few of which he may express outwardly (as on the message board). There may be a tendency to want to simply affix a label (such as "cult") to Siddha Yoga and run. But we must remember that our attraction to Siddha Yoga reflects our own mental tendencies, which will remain with us until we scrutinize them carefully. I'm wary of the strong emotional connotations in the word "cult."--it's wise to explore its intellectual denotation. Discussing "Government," the Grollier Multimedia Encyclopedia, Rel. 6 states that in a "cult of personality . . . [t]he leader is credited with almost infallible wisdom, because to admit that he or she may be wrong would deprive the regime of its authority" I'll admit that seems a pretty accurate depiction of the Guru in Siddha Yoga, and I have sought such an authority to lead me to God. This doesn't dishearten me from my divine yearnings. The fallacy was thinking I could stop being vigilant--critical and intellectually sifting the content of the guru's talks, etc.--that I could just chant, meditate and do seva, and I would magically arrive at enlightenment. But I've discovered that (for me at least) it requires active self-inquiry to integrate heart, mind and experience into one comprehensible whole of knowledge (to feel comfortable about it, think peacefully about it, and act confidently on its basis). This is true whether or not the guru's teachings are pure (the world is also our guru). I have to make an active effort to reconcile the guru's communications with my innate spiritual intuition and understanding. And that which can't be reconciled needs to be rejected and/or "put on the back burner" for further thought. I also resist blanket dismissal of gurudom (or even "cultism," as defined above) because there have been and are saints and teachers who have lived there lives with dignity and love, and have consistently uplifted their students and the world in general (and have made mistakes and corrected them). PLEASE SEE PART FOUR Subj: Re:"Open Letter" PART 4/5 Date: 95-08-04 00:16:15 EDT From: Yateendra COMMENTS ON "AN OPEN LETTER," PART FOUR And I don't feel we need to give up on Gurumayi, either. The _New Yorker_ article stated that Swami Nityananda regained his celibacy and was considered qualified for re-initiation into _sannyasa_ (monkhood) by the Mahamandaleshwar (a "bishop" of the Saraswati order of the Shankaracharya tradition). Messages on this board, (citing _Hinduism Today_ August 1995) report that Nityananda has himself been elected to the post of Mahamandaleshwar (the same post which conferred sannyasa on Gurumayi and SYDA monks). This election reflects the faith of an Indian ecclesiastical authority not only in the genuineness of Swami Nityananda's reform, but in the integrity his master, Baba Muktananda. If the Guru's "son" can return from error, so can the "daughter." Another tendency is to dismiss recent disclosures with the phrase, "No big deal, I knew it all before . . ." It's true that we live in Kali Yuga, the most adharmic (unrighteous) of the four ages of creation. But to accept disharmony with the dharma (the divine Law of Love) as the norm is to fail to rise from the equilibrium state of ignorance--tantamount to spiritual death. Another tendency is to say, "there goes the shakti with its divine sport again." The concept of the universe as God's play, unconfined by the limits of human expectations or standards of propriety, is freeing and valid, but it can also be an excuse for human irresponsibility and intellectual laziness, not wanting to probe to the bottom of uncomfortable issues. We cannot rely on a repertory of pat answers to complex and vital questions. God has given us the intellects and hearts to do the work, and ourselves and our community will be the beneficiaries. Another tendency would be to put oneself into the position of victim. The disadvantage of the "victim" role is that it gives others control of our destiny. It's important to realize that we, and not other people, form the body of our attitudes, feelings and motivations, which to a great extent determine our outer body and environment, our actions and their results. Maintain self-effort, "grinding one's teeth" (Concise Yoga Vasishtha) and you will win. I'll close with a passage from the Vedas which expresses for me a heartfelt aspect of the cure. Though my mind doesn't understand what the heart grasps in this passage, I offer a scientific analogy. On the frontiers of modern physics, scientists have begun to model the universe after a hologram--each element or particle contains the pattern of the whole. In the dawn of Cosmic Consciousness, one has the experience of the universe existing inside oneself. It can be understood that all the players in this drama--Baba, Gurumayi, the SYDA functionaries, Nityananda, fellow sadhakas--have an essential existence within me also. PLEASE SEE PART FIVE Subj: Re:"Open Letter" PART 5/5 Date: 95-08-04 00:17:16 EDT From: Yateendra COMMENTS ON "AN OPEN LETTER," PART FIVE While condemning the wrongdoing, we must not so estrange ourselves from the true beings of the wrongdoers that we are estranged from ourselves. The functions of clear discrimination (analysis) and love (synthesis) must coexist in a strong creative synergy. At this time, when the dominant tendency is to divide, we must maintain in balance the unifying principle, love. The passage is familiar to devotees as part of the "Introductory Mantras" chanted before programs (the translation is from _The Nectar of Chanting_ (SYDA, 1983). I hope many of you can continue to cherish these ideas as your mantra: Om saha naavavatu Sahanaubhunaktu Sahaveeryam karavaavahai Tejasvinaavadheetam-astu Maa vidvishaa vahai Om. May we, Guru and disciple, be protected together. May we enjoy the fruits of our actions together. May we achieve strength together. May our knowledge be full of light. May we never have enmity for one another. The Sanskrit root "dvi" in "vidvishaa" (enmity, hate) means "two." The Rishi said, "Fear is born of duality," and the Evangelist said (I John 4:18), " There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: . . . ." That "perfect love" is God. And His grace is ever near us. God Bless you all. P.S.: Pardon my verbosity--I wasn't attempting to imitate the five part "Open Letter," I just wanted to "think myself out" which took me my whole day off! ---Cheers! [FINIS] Subj: Not fleeced yet Date: 95-08-04 02:31:57 EDT From: Ugra Sorry about "wolf quote" at the end. Sorry that it was not clear. But look who has the sick minds. Was not refering to Baba's behavior with women. If you would have read my post carefully, instead of READING WHAT WAS NOT THERE AND WAS NOT WRITTEN THERE, you would g-e-t i-t. I do not believe Baba preyed upon little girls. The sheep referred to are people who are betrayed. As I said in the post, I do not feel myself as one betrayed, IN THE LEAST. Perhaps it was because I actually practice and practiced the teachings and inbibe them. Perhaps it is because I keep my eyes open. ( I refrain from taking the relevant statements from Baba, but believe me, they are there.) Also I received an awakened Kundalini, which is the greatest gift in the world. LET ME SPELL IT OUT FOLKS. One is not betrayed in such a case. Perfect example: Yateendra. I know him (sorry, Ugra's a fake name, Yateendra). He had nothing to do with Ashram hierarchy. He did not have a glamourous or important job---took care of the dining hall year in and year out. Guess what, he was practicing the teaching. Was ignored. Guess what. He seems to have attained something and does not feel bitter. His posting is inspired. If you attain God's grace you don't get burned. You may 'burn' a bit, but it only increases your radiance and glow. If you really sincerely practice it, you can't get burned OR fleeced, that's it's nature, that's part of the point of it! Seek, and you shall find. Knock, and the door shall be open unto you. Subj: Re:Wolf quote at end Date: 95-08-04 07:40:09 EDT From: E2233 Greg401, thank you for responding to Sharva. If one of the outcomes of Sharva's sexual experience with Muktananda is that she could make a statement like that, that these women he abused must have been asking for it, then my guess is that Sharva herself has suffered enormously from this abuse. Baba used his status as a living deity, as the alpha and omega of divine authority, to seduce, harass and molest girls as young as 10 years old. Afif's youngest victim that we know of was 13. That Syda devotees can justify this, trivialize or dismiss it is the ultimate proof of Syda's power to corrupt and destroy the integrity of others. What I called Baba in my letter to Charlie47 was: a sexual abuser and child molester. I don't need to substitute __________ for those words. There are intelligent, sincere people on this message board who have not spoken out. What do you have to say? PS - for those who use the internet, the alt.support.ex-cult and the alt.meditation newsgroups are also carrying a lively debate about syda. Subj: pre-judgement Date: 95-08-04 19:34:50 EDT From: Ugra Dear E2233, You have no idea for who or for what I feel compassion. You accuse me of callousness without even knowing what I do in life. It's very strange. You actually do a dis-service to the cause you try to promote. And I did read the entries in the Alt. support.ex-cult. When you accuse people of things you don't even know about, and sort of appear to be whipping up outrage, but sometimes not getting your facts straight or but sometimes jumping to conclusions, you lead people to discredit everything you you say, even if a lot of it is true. Your over-zealousness really works against you. You seem to be a meditator (I assume because you're on this board), but somehow your mind doesn't seem to distinguish between what you really know and what you don't know. Thanks for the apology, but you did it again. What makes you think I belong to the Siddha Yoga hierarchy, represent them, am defending them, belong there or anything. If you really knew what they were about you'd know none of those people would be saying the stuff I say. *They* certainly know I don't belong with them. At least I think. Anyway, I'm not one of them. Am I suppose to apologize because I don't feel terrible and destroyed for giving a large part of my life in years to Siddha Yoga. Do I have to, to avoid judgement from you, feel terrible for what happened to "the other people" as if I had not been, in the past, traveling in the same boat. Your right, I am happy I was smart enough to get out. If you call that smug so be it. I'd rather be smug than a victim. Am I suppose to be ashamed because I'm not hurt by it? What good does it do, by the way, for me to feel it has ruined my life? Why do you seem to try to manipulate me to feel terrible about something I just don't feel terrible about. I feel terrible about other things. Things I can do something about and things I can't. I don't know why I feel terrible about some things and not about others. At least Baba delivered the goods teaching-wise when he was alive. He brought the tradition to us. The teachings themselves are a treasure house of accumulated knowledge. I'm sorry the transmission was off. But he did deliver, no doubt about it. I'm sort of sure that I must feel very bad about many things that you do not. I'm fairly certain but I could be wrong. I'm definitely not jumping to any conclusions. Don't enough people feel bad about this already. I don't know. Why do you insist on trying to add one more. If someone feels OK can't you just leave it alone. Enough already. If I videotape myself banging my head against the wall will that satisfy you. Sometimes I do feel guilty for being so happy. But it's absurd. What am I suppose to do? Self-torture myself to allieviate the guilt? I don't hurt people. Why should I suffer? Those who do hurt others don't seem to have a bothered conscious. Why should I? That's what I thought we were trying to get over. Blackmailing people through guilt. Also SPV10, I really like you and your messages. Why do you also assume I represent Siddha Yoga? I'm confused. Considering what you say about Siddha Yoga I was puzzled when you seemed to say you wanted to get back in there. Believe me I'm not the one to do it. But I'm just confused. Why would you want to? Whoever is OldTimer36, thank you for the message. Subj: Truth or Consequences Date: 95-08-04 20:54:47 EDT From: Bhav **Discern between what is true and what is the truth. ** When I first heard the guru,by way of video,( that technological evil?) what struck me, besides what was being said, which I barely heard, was the almost shocking truth of it. It wasn't an intellectual understanding of the words or the philosophy being stated, it was like looking at (into?) a painting and being struck with visual delight by the beauty that was there; or a great piece of music stirring the emotions (as the sound enters into our organism). It's not the pigment or the notes or the composition of each, it's the truth that is being conveyed ( the entering in). In this way I think that what "Our Nemesis" has is the ability "siddah?" to project an expression of truth regardless of what is being said. It's nice that what is being said can be viewed as uplifting but I don't think the fundamental experience would be different if another philosophy were being represented. It's only when the philosophy strays markedly from our own individual beliefs that we might begin to call into question our allegiance and/or devotion. I could give examples but my philosphical bent would in some only raise argument. Is it a tradition or a business? The incorporation of SiddhaYoga into SYDA has created a buffer between all involved parties. If Nityananda has been appointed the head of the lineage by the legitimate authorities then is it Chidvilasananda's Dharma to step down from the seat? It appears that Nityananda has the spiritual authority while Chidvilasananda has the temporal authority. Which is greater? Can it be ignored? What will be the consequences if it is ignored? Has SiddhaYoga been cut loose with those in the outer circles being unaware. Look for an update from the seat, it is sure to come. Let's hope that it is not more denial. It's time for some healing. Om Tat Sat. Subj: False Gurus Date: 95-08-04 21:48:00 EDT From: Paulibus Baba said there are false gurus bacause there are false disciples. Perhaps he was saying more than he knew or intended. If we make excuses or rationalize abuse in any form then we have become false disciples and will continue to creat false gurus only too happy to victimize us. I treasure the gifts I received from Siddha Yoga, confronting truth will never invalidate them. I think it is time to stop blaming victims, ourselves and each other and honestly confront the situation without petty sqaubbles. It would be more useful to support each other in the search for meaning in these events. Where do we go from here?. My sadhana continues maybe in a different direction. Certainly with much prayer and meditation. I am interested in how all of you are integrating all of this.. Subj: To Paulibus Date: 95-08-05 11:10:06 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear Paulibus, You say, "I treasure the gifts I received from Siddha Yoga, confronting truth will never invalidate them. I think it is time to stop blaming victims, ourselves and each other and honestly confront the situation without petty sqaubbles. It would be more useful to support each other in the search for meaning in these events. Where do we go from here?" Thank you--beatifully said. "Where do we go from here?" To me, the yoga, the miraculous experiences, and the profound precepts seem all the more worthy of investigation when one learns of the problems. If the guru is accepted as "perfect," the experiences can be understood simplistically via the conceptual system that is taught. All answers are "known," so to speak. But if the guru is recognized as problematic, wonderful mysteries and challenges face each of us! And part of the beauty of the situation we find ourselves in is that each of us will respond to those challenges individualistically. Questions will probably come up for many now, such as: are disturbed people indeed functioning as a catalyst for shaktipat, and if so, how can this be? If the shakti is active in us and maybe even self-guiding, do we need an external guru? Where do the remarkable experiences of this path actually take us? Why does shaktipat apparently "wear off" for some and not for others? Though these questions have no fast answers, they do lead to fruitful contemplation. I don't pretend to be an answer man, or to tell others how to think or feel. But my best sense of things is that we should be optimistic. Since most in Siddha Yoga recognize that their spiritual development is very important, I trust they will be willing to face the sad facts and then explore their own truths. I agree with you, Paulibus: people shouldn't characterize their involvement with SYDA as either all good or all bad; rather, they should see it as a first baby step in life's long staircase. To take the next step is sometimes painful. But the alternative--standing still through denial and rationalization--is of course infinitely worse. To Siddha readers out there: please remember that the experiences do stay with you even if you mentally turn away from the guru. Subj: Re:To Paulibus, Howie Sm Date: 95-08-05 15:00:57 EDT From: Ego2go You sound like one of Charlie 47's buddies. He's been pointing this out for the past nine months. I think it was too subtle for most. I wish you luck with the intellectual approach. I don't think he had much luck with the heart. Subj: Re:To Paulibus, Howie Sm Date: 95-08-05 16:41:04 EDT From: Kaiwahine aloha all,I just came from hours of being in Gurumayi's presence,listening to her talk,having her darshan,and I am so at peace,ecstatic.What do you guys know that is more important than that?To create misery thru the mind?I already know that one.May you live in Baba's heart,and may I never leave it.aloha,Kaiwahine Subj: Some will................. Date: 95-08-05 16:57:49 EDT From: YingYangU Some will suffer. Some will understand. Some will find understanding through their suffering. Some will find suffering through their understanding. What could be more perfect. :) Subj: Howie to Ego2go Date: 95-08-05 17:13:03 EDT From: Howie Sm Thanks for the good wishes; I admit I'm surprised to hear them, for I'm sure you've noticed that I am in sympathy with people you seemed to attack earlier. Anyway, if we can talk with one another civilly, that's a good sign! Subj: Re:To Paulibus, Howie Sm Date: 95-08-06 06:27:52 EDT From: HenryD7890 Kaiwahine- You are addressing people who are saying that they are stunned and horrified to learn the facts about the sexual abuse, mental cruelty, corruption and dishonesty that began with Baba and which continue with Gurumayi. Could you lift yourself out of your trance for one second and see someone elses's reality? If you could, you would recognize how much hatred you yourself are expressing when you wish that these people "live in Baba's heart." Subj: Being Cool! Date: 95-08-06 17:32:02 EDT From: SPV10 Mahachiti you say your nobody special! Is that true? In the Tao it says in one of the poems Can you lead with being Known? Maha means the Supreme. Chiti means consciousness. So to you Your Most Supreme Consciousness I bow to nobody Special! Subj: My Baba Date: 95-08-06 18:34:44 EDT From: Charlie 47 Why do I use the name Baba? Thank you for the question Howie. My Baba is just that, "my Baba". My Baba is the Baba that I knew and came to love. My definition is based on my understanding. Feel free to read my previous posts if you are curious about who my Baba is. I am aware that many others had negative experiences. The experiences of others doesn't change my experience. There are persons that would object to the use of just about any name I could think of. Some would object to the use of the term "self" or "atman". I would be perfectly justified to use the name Bozo the Clown if, in fact, I felt that Bozo was my Guru. Some people may hate Bozo and some may love him but it's up to me to determine if he is a manifestation of my Guru. With love, Charlie Subj: Re: She's not there. Date: 95-08-06 18:53:57 EDT From: Bhyrava The experience of this board has been very powerful for me the last week or so. Especially I think, the copy of the letter from S. Trout. But other things too. I've found this board transformative before, but never like this. Maybe just more of the same. Very good. In a supermarket last night I heard the song by the 'Zombies' with the words: "Well noone told me about her, what could I do? Well noone told me about her, though they all knew. It's too late to say your sorry, how would I know, why should I care. Please don't bother trying to find her She's not there" It affected me alot with all the discussion of harm, responsibility, compassion, discrimination. I thought of posting it and then was reminded to do so by the post by MahaChiti, when she said, Gurumai was her model and, "She's not there". When Baba came to the US sometime soon after the Jim Jones suicides, reporters would always ask him about the dangers of people giving their lives to spiritual teachers. I think he really got fed up with the questions. One anwser he gave that I really liked was,"If you become a spiritual person it doesn't mean that when you wake up in the morning you can't see your face in the mirror" And also, "A spiritual person has to be more intelligent, smarter; not dumber, than those who are not on a path". Like the old joke about elephants and eggs goes, modified for this board. If you can't tell the difference between Hitler and Mohandas Gandhi, let's say, don't pick out a Guru. Your lack of discrimination puts you in a category of person not qualified for yoga. Subj: Re: 5 part open letter Date: 95-08-06 19:06:30 EDT From: LD3140 Dear Fellow Seekers Thank you for the courage and thoughtfulness of your letter. It is heartening to see that there are those who can look at both the darkness and the light without fear, who can accept their flawed humanity and the flawed humanity of the gurus and take the appropriate action-calling a spade a spade,facing the shadow because of the courage of the light inside allows them to do that, indeed demands that abuse and cruelty especially to minors deserves the name pedophilia, and cover up deserves the name lying. Reading Stan Trout's letter was another eye opener. The denial I suffered from at the time of that scandal didn't allow me to read that letter at the time and helped me to embrace the spiritual gobbledy gook that explained away the accusations of baba's sexual exploitation of young women. I am sad to see the same use of spiritual gobbledegook in some of the communications on this board used to explain away the irresponsible behavior of gurumayi with George Afiff. Stan trout's letter sure tells us where she learned to break her vows, lie and intimidate. But I know everyone has their time to face the shadow, it is not easy and courage has to be gathered and trust in self has to be fostered before looking at imperfection sends us running off into abstruse philosophical discussions or seeking the trance state which the ashram knows so well how to foster. From my own personal experience I know gurumayi and the swamis are lying about their participation in abuse, and violence and it is sad that these people who have been supposedly imbibing the teachings for years cannot give us the example of facing the pain of human existence by telling the truth, and trusting in the grace of God to forgive and heal. If trust in the Shakti were really practised we could be sending messages back and forth about how to heal and reorganize SYDA so it could encompass both the light and the shadow. regards, LD3140's partner Subj: Time out for a little LOL . . . Date: 95-08-06 20:29:58 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear Charlie 47, You say "I would be perfectly justified to use the name Bozo the Clown if, in fact, I felt that Bozo was my Guru." I believe you. Subj: Re:Think About It Date: 95-08-06 20:45:22 EDT From: E2233 Bhagirathi, and others: When I find out someone is a liar, a sex offender, and a thief, and that they have deceived and betrayed thousands of people with their cruelty; when I learn that in spite of their ability to evoke in others sublime spiritual experiences, they nevertheless behave in everyday life like evil despots; when I discover that someone who could do so much good has chosen instead to use their power to degrade and exploit others; then I can't accept it. If I understand your post correctly, you are saying that those who cannot accept Baba and Gurumayi because of the above reasons are like fools looking at the reflection of the sun and thinking it is the sun. Can this possibly be what you mean? Because if so, you are describing your own delusion to a tee. Some of you loyalists to the guru may think I am a harsh person. In fact, I loved these gurus more than my own life, and nothing was dearer to me than the company of devotees, than seva. However, I am proud to stand now with others, like Stan Trout, like Howie Sm, like LD3140, who have the courage and the strength to bear the pain, the tears and the rage, the betrayal and the disillusionment - all that comes with recognzing the crimes committed by the false gurus of SYDA. (The above mentioned people are not the authors of the new open letter). Myself, the open letter authors, and these others are saying what we say because we love God, we love yoga, we love Kundalini, we love and respect humanity. And the SYDA gurus have proven by their vicious actions that THEY DO NOT. And those who follow them, from our experience, tend to end up less human, less whole, less alive, and devoted to selfishness. The proof of this is: that you turn off your love, your compassion, your decency and simply refuse to hear of the crimes being committed right under your noses. Before you got into SYDA, was sexual abuse OK with you? Was lying, or being cruel to others OK? Listen to the evidence others offer. Why are these things OK with you now? Because Gurumayi told you not to think, not to look, not to know - just follow her, follow her, follow her. . . I think one of the most important reasons SYDA appealed to us, the open letter authors and others on this board, was that we felt that by offering our devotion, we could serve a higher purpose. We still believe that we can serve a higher purpose, and that by telling the truth out loud, we do exactly that. Subj: Re:Think About It Date: 95-08-06 22:05:37 EDT From: E3346 This has been such an interesting discussion, one that I am deeply moved by and grateful for, since I have had to look within myself. Shadow.... that which we are most angered by and and hateful of...exists within us. (and the reverse is also true) This is not to say that I feel any behavior is acceptable. Like I said before, we can only change ourselves...and we must sometimes do that at great risk. So thank you E2233 for presenting the opportunity. E Subj: Who's the Victim? Date: 95-08-07 03:58:31 EDT From: Ego2go I question the motivation of E2233 and some of the others that have been posting in this folder during the past few days. It is not uncommon to hear from those who would attack Siddha Yoga. It is apparent, to me, that there is reason to question their motivation. Are they acting out of anger or compassion. What are they truly offering us? Are they offering us understanding or righteous anger? Are they offering us darkness or light? I sense some heart but it appears to be conditional. E2233; I honestly don't understand how you can say that you have the courage to bear the pain, the tears and the rage, the betrayal and the disillusionment. You're not bearing it, you're dumping it! This situation reminds me of the dog that takes a dump on your lawn. Taking the dump is easy. Cleaning up the mess takes humility and compassion for the owner of the lawn. There is a lot of dumping going on here. I don't sense very much compassion for those who are being dumped on. E2233; you love your God. You love your yoga. You love your Kundalini. You conditionally love and respect humanity. You don't truly have respect, compassion or even a willingness to listen to those who find value in their experience of Siddha Yoga. It isn't enough that we acknowledge that we are aware of problems. The problems exist only as long as there is confusion. I sense deaf ears when some point out that they have worked it out on the inside. I sense disappointment that we don't all share in your anger. We are accused of being "less human, less whole, less alive and devoted to selfishness". TALK ABOUT GENERALIZATION! Does this sound like a compassionate person with an open mind? I'm not surprised that such persons could carry this luggage around for five or ten years or even a life time. Actually, it sounds like some of these people plan on making it their life work to share their anger and disillusionment. They truly believe that they are serving their higher self! What a shame that they don't seem to be able to recognize what they are being offered by many here. At one time I heard that there were over 100,000 people that practiced Siddha Yoga. I would be curious to know the true number. I would guess that the vast majority feel that it is well worth their time. I have personally talked to a number who feel Baba or Gurumayi literally saved their lives. What would you say to these people? Could you truly offer them understanding with your criticism? I'm under the impression that everyone that felt victimized by the Guru got a little too close. You know what happens when you fall asleep next to the fire. My wife spent four months on her own with Baba in India and over a year on tour in the United States. She felt it was incredebly intense yet one of the most beautiful and rewarding experiences of her life. In closing, I again thank you for your contributions to this forum. I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to contemplate your posts and reflect on my relationship with my Guru. GANESH Subj: Re:Ego to go Date: 95-08-07 12:27:46 EDT From: LD3140 Dear Fellow Seeker, The people who wrote the five part letter are the messengers, not the dumpers. You are confused about who's dog is dumping in your, no our spiritual yards. gurumayi, george afiff,SYDA and the swamis are the dumpers. It is they who are dumping responsibility for the corruption in themselves and in the organization.Abuse and lying are not spiritual practices, they are the smelly dumps you don't like fouling up your spiritual arena. The people who wrote that letter are just pointing their fingers and saying "look out, there's a dump on your lawn. don't step in it like we did."they go on to describe where it is and how you can avoid stepping in it.This is dealing with it not dumping it. I know how difficult it is to let in that the guru we all idealized isn't perfect I know how difficult it is to discriminate between the inner life of the spirit and the outer corruption of a powerful organizaton which insists on its own perfection. One can only do that by knowing exactly what one is separating from. I am grateful to the part 5 letter writers for their help in clarifying exactly the shape and size of the dump which baba, gurumayi and the swamis have left us alone to deal with. Those are not the actions of a compassionate community but the actions of people who are at best unconscious of the effects of their actions or at worst just don't care just so it's not on their lawn. Subj: World Tour Date: 95-08-07 13:39:25 EDT From: Wolfddy For those of you who, after all this, still wish to follow her and practice Siddha Yoga, Gurumayi will be arriving at the Oakland ashram in mid-November and will stay through New Years. Happy Holidays! WD Subj: Annotated SYDA bibliography Date: 95-08-07 13:56:55 EDT From: OldTimer36 SEVEN INDISPENSABLE SYDA DOCUMENTS: FOUR HARD-COPY SOURCES AND THREE AOL POSTS. HARD-COPY SOURCE #1. Harris, Lis. "O Guru, Guru, Guru." The New Yorker, November 14, 1994. Incipit: "The spiritual movement known as SYDA boasts a glittering clientele and a multimillion-dollar Catskills retreat. But behind all the serenity lie some uncomfortable, ill-kept secrets--and a less than blissful struggle about succession." Summary: A meticulously researched account which includes recent allegations as well as a convenient review of old allegations. HARD-COPY SOURCE #2. "I was ABDUCTED," in The Illustrated Weekly of India: March 16-22, 1986. Incipit: "In a sensational interview after his escape from Hawaii, Swami Nityananda reveals how he was forced to abdicate and abducted from the country by Ganeshpuri's gang of foreign devotees." HARD-COPY SOURCE #3. Rodarmor, William. "The Secret Life of Swami Muktananda." CoEvolution Quarterly, Winter 1983. Published abstract: "The last few years of Swami Muktananda's life saw a proliferation of abuses which are only now coming to light. William Rodarmor spent months interviewing former and current followers for this article. CoEvolution Quarterly independently contacted his major sources and confirmed the authenticity of their quotes and allegations." HARD-COPY SOURCE #4. Hard copies of related documents are available from Cult Awareness Network (C.A.N.), (312) 267-7777, 2421 W. Pratt Blvd., Ste. 1173, Chicago, IL 60645. AOL POST #1. Subj: About SYDA Yoga (parts 1-5) 95-08-02 Incipit: "This letter is from a group of people who have left Siddha Yoga and who were, at one time, very deeply involved with its activities . . ." Summary: Contains numerous new allegations against SYDA with some discussion of their profoundly negative effects on a group of disciples. AOL POST #2. Subj: From the archives (parts 1-6) 95-08-04 Incipit: "AN OPEN LETTER OF RESIGNATION FROM SWAMI ABHAYANANDA TO MUKTANANDA" Summary: An account of the sexual misconduct, harassment, and "maniacal" behavior that a SYDA swami discovered in his investigations. AOL POST #3. Subj: Bombshell news re lineage 95-07-21 Incipit: "Nityananda (Gurumayi's brother) has just been named the new Mahamandaleshwar; he is the head of the lineage now." Summary: The persecuted and scandalously deposed former co-leader of SYDA is now recognized as Muktananda's chief disciple by the Indian religious community. Subj: Re:Annotated SYDA bibliography Date: 95-08-07 15:31:13 EDT From: Ego2go Thank you for posting this information. I have everything you mentioned and more in my private library. I don't hesitate to share this information with mature Siddha Yoga friends. Virtually all have the common sense to look at their own experience of the Guru. GANESH Subj: Re: LD3140 Date: 95-08-07 17:19:34 EDT From: Charlie 47 Sounds like the Catholic Church to me. Subj: Onlookers, read this. 1 of 4 Date: 95-08-07 17:44:21 EDT From: Howie Sm MESSAGE 1 (In four parts) To onlookers, This message critically discusses some of the mind control that SYDA devotees have been subjected to, and is offered as a partial explanation of the bizarre impression made by messages read in this forum. You may have noticed with curiosity that--as stated in part five of the Re: Syda Yoga post--one can "speak no criticism of the guru without instantly being shunned, avoided and labeled mentally unbalanced by those who remain loyal to SYDA." You may wonder kind of regimen was imposed (both externally- and self-imposed) upon these people to precipitate this uniform (and alarming) tribal ostracization behavior. I offer here an interpretative explanation. Devotees violently shun ex-devotees (including former best friends) because the devotee's construction of reality is easily threatened. You see, the whole system of Siddha Yoga depends on the fragile illusion that "Gurumayi is a siddha--a siddha is (according to a SYDA definition) "a perfect human being; one who has attained the state of unity awareness; who experiences himself as all-pervasive and who has achieved mastery of his senses and their objects." Of course, in SYDA the normal turn of anyone's thoughts and empirical observations rail against this belief. Not because the notion of "a siddha" is intrinsically ridiculous, but because their guru is. For example, everyone can see that she has had facial plastic surgery. Why would a "perfect being" (who looked fine to begin with) have plastic surgery? This tiny example illustrates that at every turn, the devotee must rationalize away the data of common sense. So by the time devotees need to "deal with" someone who has chosen to leave the organization, they are well rehearsed in techniques of denial and rationalization. SEE MESSAGES 2, 3 AND 4 Subj: Onlookers, read this. 2 of 4 Date: 95-08-07 17:45:59 EDT From: Howie Sm MESSAGE 2 (of four parts) Dear outsiders, The key to understanding the devotee's need to ostracize former friends lies in their distrust of their own minds--indeed, their virtual hatred of the dissonant warning signals that come from the mind and senses. These hated signals of common sense challenge their "perfect" illusion. There are at least two ways they ARE TAUGHT to "stop their minds." The first is by crudely misinterpreting what are in fact profound yogic utterances. For example, a self-serving, thoughless interpretation of the marvelous" praise equals blame" maxim is commonly used to block out the constructive feedback from loved ones (and the rest of the world, for that matter). When these misinterpreted platitudes are strung end on end in a seemingly limitless algebra of rationalizing and mind-numbing formulae, you get the rumbling gibberish language that pervades this message board--what Dissent 670 aptly calls "yogaspeak." Outsiders, when you read these misshapen utterances, don't try to disentangle their meaning. They are a kind of Rube Goldberg defense mechanism that is perpetually grinding away, crushing the normal flow of thought. Typical example of conversational yogaspeak: "I heard the gossip and had a kriya and I did mental puja to the guru and then I realized that their maya was a kriya and she was a mirror for their samskaras and my karma was burned by the shakti and let the dogs bark and thank you Baba and . . . " You have already seen written yogaspeak on this board--this includes the vomiting of undigested platitudes with a large chunks of quotations, the 60s poetry, the swirling septic sludge of abstract spiritual nouns, the fortune-cookie truisms thrown about like slabs of beef. Written yogaspeak is stilted and monumental in style; it is unlike the "stream of consciousness," Leggoesque conversational style. Gurumayi and Ram Butler's writings serve as the models for the written style. Dismayingly, this robot language is the tongue of their innermost, emotionally charged prayers! SEE MESSAGES 3 AND 4 Subj: Onlookers, read this. 3 of 4 Date: 95-08-07 17:47:19 EDT From: Howie Sm MESSAGE 3 (of four parts) Dear onlookers, The second mind-stopping technique is to think something to the effect of "I trust my experiences" when faced with an illusion-threatening stimulus. What they are referring to as "experiences" are a wide range of fascinating affective responses that occur in this "path." What they fail to realize (or choose to deny) is that such affective responses are also widely reported in the "paths" of dangerously immoral frauds such as Da Free John (one of his many names), and the "nerve gas guru," Shoko Asahara. (An interesting parallel: Both Siddha yogis and Aum Shinrikyo cultists strove to drink their guru's bathwater.) Of course, fascinating experiences prove nothing about a guru's perfection. Full evidentiary proof of the fallacy of the "trust my experiences" argument is too large to post--this small discussion is merely illustrative. The large population of yogis and "seekers" who have investigated matters instead of buying into first tent show they've ever seen know about the "trust my experiences" fallacy. Given this, the rank-and-file devotee (to whom Gurumayi is an utter stranger) is a desperate creature, for their everyday life challenges their fragile illusion. Many of them are seen by their parents and siblings as embarrassments. The opinions of other outsiders are sometimes infinitely less generous. The result of this (often unconscious) desperation is that they retreat to the company of devotees where yogaspeak is encouraged, and they learn to automatically view outsiders as inferior, deluded, and guru-less. (If you've ever met one of the weird card-carrying SYDA devotees, you perhaps have noticed their patronizing, Amwayish rhetoric. To be fair, I should add that there are many nice--even if misguided--people in SYDA.) SEE MESSAGE 4 Subj: Onlookers, read this. 4 of 4 Date: 95-08-07 17:48:49 EDT From: Howie Sm MESSAGE 4 (of four parts) Dear onlookers, So you see the shrill tone of the devotee responses to E2233's letter is as drearily predictable and explainable as the yogaspeak language that frames it. Those who stumble upon this list probably now associate the term "SYDA devotee" with the image of a "shameless and embarrassing fanatic." I imagine that for outside parties (to whom the allegations may seem rather abstract and faint) the irrational and primitive voices of devotees are perceived as louder and more concrete arguments against SYDA. When I think of those looking in at this discussion, I wonder what is more frightening to you--the guru's misconduct, or the rationalizing and denial used by her followers? What is more frightening to you--the "disciples'" narcissistic clinging to subjective "experiences" as a way of defending sexual predation and other offenses, or their woolly-headed belief that the enjoyment of the benefits of yoga depends on the unceasing worship of a phony, and on the repression of common sense? I follow this board because it has all the great human themes in microcosm, and is a reasonably amusing way to pass spare time. I am not completely disinterested, for I would like to present some basic ideas and facts to the devotees so they can make informed decisions. Why are my criticisms pointedly made? Though a cordial tone is undeniably preferable, cordiality is often grossly misread as pro-SYDA rhetoric. A cursory survey of this board illustrates. Basically one must compensate for their poor reading comprehension. One last point. Why is their reading comprehension so poor?--Steve Hassan reported that his exclusive reading of Moon literature for two years destroyed his reading comprehension for some time even after his leaving the cult. I hope you onlookers stay with this board. Though you won't see much about yoga here, you will see much that is illustrative of human nature. And you have to admit: the whole thing is rather entertaining. Subj: Re:To Paulibus, Howie Sm Date: 95-08-07 19:21:27 EDT From: Kaiwahine Henry,I am so practtical a person,a business person,non airy fairy that it is humorous that you accuse me of being in a trance.I too have read all the stuff.Why would I trust a non realized being over one who has given life to hundreds of thousands?which reallity do you prefer?and does it bring you peace?If you are so angry with Baba and Gurumayi why do you hang in this forum?free yourself.There ARE other paths.Pick one and be at peace.Aloha,Kaiwahine Subj: Re:This is Sadhana Date: 95-08-08 01:31:20 EDT From: SueB RD Someone told me to come back to this folder. Apparently something was going on other than some deranged individual on a soapbox. As an onlooker, i would recommend to you the recent article in this months Yoga Journal--an interview with Andrew Harvey. He posits, among other things that 90% of todays "gurus" are not enlightened at all, but occultists practicing their powers. For those of you who choose to go it on your own, you will find comfort/inspiration in this article. Thank you all for your honesty. I will not be visiting any Siddha Yoga Ashrams. Subj: Brainwash examination Date: 95-08-08 01:55:41 EDT From: Dissent670 Seems not many people here care about their own brainwashing. Howie Sm's posts seemed like stunners to me, yet they are ignored. Others post long scriptural cut-and-pastes and are praised by kindred spirits for their "heart" and "love". Gee Toto, I guess we're not in Kansas anymore. I also spent many years hiding in purple prose. It was so seductive to be right all the time. "The world is as you see it"... "When a pickpocket meets a saint, all he sees is his pockets"... "God is Love"... I only felt the hubristic righteousness of my mental platform when I was "forced" to "go out into the world" and interact with "nondevotees". My reaction for many years was to flee back to the ashram each day for the evening program, express my relief to other devotees of being "back in the Guru's home" (and receive a guaranteed chorus of agreement), sit on my asana, listen to what the Programming Department had pulled together for the evening, and "soak up the shakti". I agreed with Ego2go: I was wrong when I felt angry. I absorbed the language of SYDA quickly and hungrily. Every once in awhile I would feel a pang that the wisdom I was acquiring was not my own. No matter, that's what the courses were about. And seva. And lots of chanting. And mantra. And prayer for the experiences which would validate what I already "knew". Before long, my entire social circle consisted of devotees. I felt "more comfortable" with them - they "loved God in themselves and others".They had "bhakti" and "great hearts", they were "great beings" - and some returned the compliments. I reinterpreted every impression to revalidate the teachings, "my boat across the raging waters of karma". Yet I knew I was full of it. What better way to purge my falseness, not to mention any last scrap of "resistence", but to spend a month on the top of a hill in Ganeshpuri wearing white clothes and doing nonstop austerities? That would take care of my guilt. It did not. I had what I know now was a nervous breakdown. I felt very near total madness. My SYDA conditioning became a conspiracy to "push me over the edge". I thought that was what God and Guru wanted. I thought my ego was "making" me suffer. I thought I had to kill my will. But it was not what I wanted. And much as I tried not to, I decided I mattered - ego, will and all. I suppose some here would find that decision a tragic spiritual mistake. It was a turning point for my own choice of sanity. As some may notice, I no longer express myself via SYDA pablum. I call a spade a spade, when I recognize one. And there are many spades being called in the Open Letter. Our philosophizing obscures truth, and ourselves. It does not reveal it. And this is what Gurumayi wants, even if she says otherwise, because this is how she runs her ashram. See for yourself. In my experience, it took a real effort and interest in examining my own brainwashing to begin to develop a nose for fraud. I hope others do too. I am a far happier guy, experiencing adulthood for the first time, even if I don't have ready answers, or a ready smile, or a Guru Who Loves Me. Subj: Powerful Date: 95-08-08 10:34:59 EDT From: E3346 What an incredible and powerful experience for anyone willing to read. For people like me who were searching for a path, but not yet involved, It was truly a miracle that I found this board and these postings. I really have to thank my, God, guru, higher power, the Sage, the Divine (whichever term might be suitable for the reader of this) that Divine intervention showed me that this was was not right for me. Not to say that others don't get or haven't gotten something positive from this (SYDA)......that is *their* experience and far be it from me to interfere with another's choice of path/karma. Once again, Thank you to all of you who have chosen to take a risk by sharing your experience. Eileen (E) Subj: Re:Brainwash examination Date: 95-08-08 12:21:04 EDT From: MahaChiti It seems so very strange to me that you had such an unhappy & painful experience with Gurumayi and the SYDA organization, such that you felt brainwashed and the need to extract yourself to be sane/whole. You see I have had exactly the opposite experience. I felt less then whole, even insane before I got involved with SYDA yoga & Gurumayi (about 10 years ago) I was so disillusioned by myself, others & life. Now that has totally changed ... and I do attribute it to the GURU (the Guru Principle/Christ/Buddha Nature/ True Self .... all synonyms for me) that I experience Guyumayi to be an embodiment of. The one main difference that I see in my experience and what I understand from your post about yours is that I have never spent very much time in the Ashram. I have always been “out in the world” with all the “non-devotees” ... actually I have always understood this to be the teaching & the point of SYDA.... to gain new understanding and to then go and live your every day life in the world FROM this understanding. To serve others and your community. To do your spiritual practices so that you maintain and expand what you have received. Hea! what can I say, it works for me!! I can not really speak to all the allegations that have come out lately. I really do not know if they are accurate, partially accurate or false. I must say that if the allegations are as real/accurate as some claim I am surprised that no legal action has been taken by those claiming the injustices. Perhaps I am just not aware that they have done so ... I must say that for me, when I have made my visits to the Ashram I have been particularly impressed by the integrity, devotion and genuine kindness which I have observed and experience from the people I encountered at the Ashram. Everyone, with out an exception in 10 years of visits, from those who are in “official” positions down to room mates I experienced as exemplary human beings. In fact I am often moved to tears just watching people at the Ashram, I see the seeds of global peace in how they are treating each other ... this is how it could be everywhere... As a part of my collage work in anthropology & sociology I did a study on cults & the brainwashing techniques used. As a part of this I did some field research in San Francisco by going to a “orientation” (recruiting) meeting of Rev Moon’s group. Having done much research I was looking for the classic brainwashing symptoms, and they were there. Any way my point is that I feel that I have enough intelligence and knowledge to see blatant brain washing when it is there. I do not see it in SYDA. People are not controlled, hours regulated etc. in the Ashram that I have ever observed. On the other hand people relate to the Guru (and Jesus, Allah. Buddha, the devil etc.) according to their own understanding (which is what SYDA teaches) some at higher levels of understanding, some at lower. Some people mistake the form of the outer Guru for an intermediary between them and God/Self. Some understand that the Guru is a Principle and relate to the outer Guru as an example of that. What else can be expected? I have heard and read again and again the warning from Baba & Gurumayi to not mistake the form/body of the guru for the Guru Itself. So you see I really do not know why I have had such a great experience in my involvement with SYDA while you report the opposite ... May God reveal to each of us the compassion and wisdom to understand this life, each other, and guide us all to a better expression of love, respect and kindness. May God relieve suffering where ever and however it takes place and heal all wounds with the balm of pure wisdom and Divine Love. Subj: Ego2go's ego has gotta go! Date: 95-08-08 12:41:54 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear Ego2go, Ego2go, since you say, "I don't hesitate to share this information with mature Siddha Yoga friends," I ask you: What qualifications do you have that authorize you to judge whether someone is "mature"? Are some people not "ready" for information? Are you saying newcomers shouldn't be shown all the cards--shouldn't be allowed to decide for themselves? One astute writer notes "They (cult members) operate under the assumption that people are too 'ignorant' or too 'unspiritual' to recognize what is best for them. They therefore take it upon themselves to make decisions for the people . . ." I'm afraid the word "mature" gave you away. (P.S.--I of course acknowledge the presence of a stray elitist connotation in your sentence which points to the existence of "immature" people out there--unwashed clods unworthy of consideration--who are quite unlike your "mature Siddha Yoga friends." I presume that, by the lights of your judgmental insight, the ranks of the "immature" would include any and all critics of the guru.) Subj: Re:Howie Sm Date: 95-08-08 13:08:56 EDT From: Wolfddy Dear Howie: I did not see so much your pointed attack on aspects of SYDA as I saw a very smug and selfsatisfied being sitting in judgement of those of us who chose to divine what we will from Gurumayi and Kashmir Shavism. Please don't assume that your perspective/truth is anyone elses. And MahaChiti, thank you for your sane response among all this fingerpointing madness. I hope to see you at the Oakland ashram when Gurumayi arrives. WD Subj: Apologies Date: 95-08-08 17:16:49 EDT From: EsKimoKwin When the final time comes, it will be too late then to communicate what we need to, if we haven't done so already. Anyone of us could 'go' at any time. Baba always said a yogi would have accomplished and said everything needed before leaving, and that we must take advantage of every moment in our life to get our life straight. To get ourselves ready, so when the final time came there would be no regrets. Nothing undone. Baba, I wish you would have replied to questions about yourself. Gurumayi, I wish you would've talked of something this weekend beside the importance of a proper diet and the need to control one's speech. Subj: Reply to Howie Date: 95-08-08 17:53:44 EDT From: Muladhari You portray the Siddha students in too extreme negative terms. This is true for at least the ones that I know. My roomates are into it, know I am not, and are as nice as can be to me. The ones I know are OK, nice people. The philosophical discussions are not too weighty. The attitude is mostly "Don't worry. Be happy". *Very* nice people. Some in it are snobs, defintely; those are the power-nuts closer to the inner circle of the heirarchy, not the general followers. As far as reading goes. From what I could follow it was E2233 and SVP10 who had the problem. Ganesh seems to me to read very well. (And he's definitely a bona fide follower, if you haven't guessed). Just because I sometimes strongly disagree with him won't make me stoop to personal attacks. To respect a person with whom one disagrees makes for a better quality of life all around. Let my enemies do the name-calling. It shows them in their true colors. Subj: Re:The Open Letters Date: 95-08-09 00:22:11 EDT From: HenryD7890 What courage it must have taken Stan Trout to come out and sign his name to the letter he wrote, revealing the horror of Muktananda's compulsive, sick pedophilia; and the disgusting cover-up activities Muktananda led, his seeking to discredit and cause physical harm and intimidation of others. This is not a divine guru - this is a criminal. E2233 has posted, perhaps helped to write, an anonymous letter which I find no less courageous for spelling out the deception, cruelty, and ongoing sexual abuse under Gurumayi. E2233 sounds angry in some of his posts to others on the board; it must be very frustrating, when someone is speaking of hidden abuse, to go completely unheard -- like a woman who reports that she was raped and must then be questioned by men who say she was asking for it. It is shocking to me that people on this board who claim to be spiritual seekers can hear such obviously convincing stories of abuse and utterly ignore them. I can only imagine that you have not really read these letters. Thank God I would never have to depend on any of you, who dismiss these statements so blindly, for any kind of help that I might ever need. Yes, I agree with Howie Sm and others that the righteousness and arrogance of these blind followers is frightening; I pray none of them are ever hurt as others have been by Gurumayi. I had beautiful experiences, too, and a number of years of happiness in Syda. But it seems obvious to me that the goodness comes from individuals there, not from the gurus. Thank you Howie Sm, LD3140 and others on this board who do not turn blindly away from the truth. Subj: My Turn, Pt. 1 Date: 95-08-09 15:03:16 EDT From: Kumuda I'm not going to post anonymously, because I stand by what I have to say, and am not afraid to speak my mind. Many of you may know me. I lived in SYDA's South Fallsburg ashram for about ten years before moving to Los Angeles six years ago. I've read the articles, and I've read the posts. I am not a cultist fanatic in denial of anything negative I may hear about Siddha Yoga. I don't know that you could say I was in the "inner circle", but during my ten years living in the ashram, I certainly was aware of whatever was going on. Its not that I approve of everything I saw and heard. I have had my own difficult times with some of the people there. I can understand where the anger comes from to write the five-page open letter, and I honor your right to express what you believe and what you feel. We each have a choice as to what we believe, and how we organize what we believe. As with everything else in this world, there are many viewpoints through which a person can judge Siddha Yoga. Just as truth can be manipulated or bent to present an image of "absolute perfection", in the same way it can be manipulated to present an image of total degradation. After seeing and being aware of whatever happened in the ashram during my ten years there, I do not perceive the total degradation some of the posts refer to. This does not mean I personally approved of everything that went on around me, just as I don't personally approve of everything I've ever done. But to be honest, the gratitude I have to Gurumayi, Baba and Siddha Yoga far outweighs any judgements or negativity that may be there. And this is not a superficial statement. I have spent a great deal of time and care in contemplating my relationship to this path. I am quite honest with myself about what I do and don't like about it. I firmly believe that the foundation of Siddha Yoga is in light, in goodness, just as I believe my own foundation is in light and goodness. Nevertheless, sometimes I find myself being pushed in less sattvic or pure ways by the waves of this world. In the same way, an organization that becomes as large as Siddha Yoga, is bound to be sullied to some extent -- at least externally -- by the ways of this world, by the human failings of its members, even by devotees' grandiose expectations of the "magic" and "perfection" that they believe will carry them effortlessly to the state of realization. Such expectations can certainly lead to anger and disappointment. Gurumayi is a Guru. Her job is to teach and guide. The shakti, the energy she carries is tangible and powerful. She doesn't have to be without a single fault. She doesn't have to wear rags. She doesn't have to smile and hug everybody. Baba doesn't have to be without fault. Nor do we have to be faultless in order to experience our own greatness. Yes, I think it would be great if all of the things that happen in Siddha Yoga were fully explained. But each person has to take responsibility for understanding why they believe what they believe, for finding out if it serves a purpose in attaining their goal. This is sadhana, the attainment of inner understanding. True knowledge cannot be spoon-fed, it has to be discovered inside. And with the knowledge that comes from inner honesty and contemplation, there isn't this extreme let-down or "bubble-bursting" disillusionment that manifests as the kinds of posts we have been seeing. The people who practice Siddha Yoga come from a wide spectrum of life. Many expound their beliefs and faith as though they were gospel. It is up to each person to filter and contemplate what is said and done through their own intuition and inner knowledge, and to decide if a particular path will work for them. Subj: My Turn, Pt. 2 Date: 95-08-09 15:03:29 EDT From: Kumuda I have studied many traditions, scientific, spiritual and philosophical. Although these paths all gave me a great deal of insight and understanding, Siddha Yoga gave me something that I was not able to gain from them. Through the discipline and shakti of the Ashram, I was able to go so deep inside my own self, feeling protected and guided throughout my travels. Through the incredible teachings that Baba and Gurumayi presented, I was able to finally put words on insights that I had previously kept inside, for a lack of context to place them in. And the teachings took my own inner knowledge and carried it higher and expanded it more and more until it changed my entire world view and experience. You can't buy this. You can't will it. I'm not saying it isn't possible to attain the experiences I've had through other paths, but for me Siddha Yoga was the ticket. I walked into the ashram from a somewhat difficult and abusive childhood. I had already attempted suicide, and was generally not a happy person. I had completely closed myself off to emotions and feelings. In the ashram I had many experiences with Baba, Gurumayi and the other ashramites. Some were difficult, some were loving and divinely inspirational. But what is important is that for the first time in my entire life, my heart opened, and I felt love. This is not just jargon. My heart finally opened. For the first time I began to feel -- love, devotion, pain, sadness, grief. . . so many emotions I had learned to keep in my pocket for so many years. I became a human being. I learned to really love someone -- the Guru-- fully, with every particle of my being. And once that love expanded, I was forced to wrap it around myself. Yes, I thought that Gurumayi was cruel at times for intentionally ignoring me when I desperately wanted and needed a smile or a caring glance. But now it is totally clear to me that this was her technique for forcing me to find strength and love inside of myself. And it worked. I now wrap myself in love and devotion. I would never dream of killing myself or doing anything to harm myself. I know that the greatness I was looking for in the Guru lives fully inside of me, and at times I am able to jump completely into that space of greatness and perfection. Gurumayi worked very hard to create this new me, to scrub away the sadness and defense mechanisms that had kept me closed to my own expansion and joy. She put a lot of time and effort into "working on me", and only I can know the grace that flowed through me, the soothing blue light that surrounded me, even when her work on me took the form of "tough love" -- what some onlookers might have consider to be "emotional abuse". All I know is that it worked. I came to this path for something, and I got it. Just as you don't question the mechanic who is fixing your car (Is he supposed to be hitting that thing so hard? Should he be just emptying out all that oil? Does he cheat on his wife?), what matters is that you drive off with what you wanted, a fixed car; in the same way, I do not choose to stand in judgement of the Guru and her methods. This does not mean I subscribe to some dogma or brainwashing that has been alluded to in some posts, it is my conscious choice. There is a Sufi qawwali that states: "One cannot say that the Master is God, and yet one cannot say that he is not God. Then what is he and what is he not? It is a matter between the lover and the beloved." My experience of the Guru is just that -- my experience. And to disregard the strength of one's experience because someone tells you to is stupid. Anger and revenge can easily become a cult. It is fine to share and discuss your experience, even if it is negative, but you can't expect everyone to bow down to your beliefs. Subj: My Turn, Pt. 3 Date: 95-08-09 15:03:34 EDT From: Kumuda When Gurumayi told me to leave the ashram, I moved to Los Angeles and became successful as a video and film editor -- the seva I learned and performed in the ashram. I found steady contentment, and the quality of my work and my life kept improving. I became free inside, free to grow, to explore, to make mistakes, and to acknowledge the greatness inside myself. This freedom was a natural blossoming of the experiences I had in the ashram -- experiences that were brought forth by Baba and Gurumayi. Yes, all this greatness was always inside of me, but when I was out there trying to commit suicide, clearly I was not able to access it. I owe my life to Gurumayi, Baba and Siddha Yoga, both literally and figuratively. I trusted them with my heart, and they gave it back to me filled with divinity and greatness -- my own greatness. Whatever difficulties I may have experienced with some of the people in the ashram, have made me strong and clear, and willing to stand up for myself with power and confidence. Gurumayi is a true teacher. She did not keep me in the ashram even though I provided a service that benefitted the ashram. She gave me what I came for and then pushed me out of the nest because she could see that it was time for me to learn to fly, even though I would have chosen to stay forever. And now, thanks to the Grace of the Siddhas and my own Inner Self, I get to fly. . . Respectfully yours, Kumuda Subj: Different experiences Date: 95-08-09 00:28:15 EDT From: Dissent670 An issue that has come up in our discussions is the fact that many of us have had very different experiences of SYDA. I suggest that this has much to do with how willing one is to scratch the surface. MahaChiti, you say you have spent little time in ashrams. I say: good for you, really. I spent too much time in ashrams. I tried to take in too much of what was being put out, tried to change to much, and nearly went crazy for it. I didn't know, for instance, how much George Afif was really running the show, especially the Programming Department. And for a long time, I wasn't clear enough about my real needs to resist when someone I respected told me that I should take the next course or Intensive. The thing is, I wasn't alone, and Gurumayi had swamis stand up in evening programs saying things as irresponsible as "Everyone should take the Intensive". If you start hanging around long enough, you would see how cookie-cutter the whole thing is. I didn't ask many questions in my ashram tenure - I didn't want to rock the boat that might carry me across the ocean of samsara. Lis Harris, the author of the New Yorker article, did begin asking questions. As I hear it, she was as entranced with SY as I was, but she wanted to know more about its history and its humanity. She didn't know at first that she was breaking a taboo that would eventually lead to earnest legal threats. The sweetness of the atmosphere and the people is manufactured. You can see that right in this folder. My experience is that there is some sort of real energy around SY, and it feels as if it has healing power, but it is not the energy of truth. I suspect it may actually be the energy of collective denial. I realize saying so may feel deeply offensive to some, but I would greatly value some substantive discussion of the nature of this so-called shakti. There is simply too much being hidden, as the Open Letter begins to report, for this energy to be characterized as one of revelation and real inner movement. Once again, I must ask: why does Gurumayi perpetuate a lie about her own perfection? Subj: Re:Different experiences Date: 95-08-09 02:08:56 EDT From: PAN CYAN Here is one dichotomy;how does one explain the obvious spiritual power that baba had and GM still shows.On the darshan line three years ago without saying a word she leaned over put her eyes in front of mine and just filled me with energy.I still feel it.In his books Rudi talks at length about dealing with magicians.Taking the impersonal energy for nourishment and noot getting involved with personalities.I am not an syda apologist,but after all, the question is a valid one. Subj: Re:Different experiences Date: 95-08-09 02:22:50 EDT From: X1195 I think I've finally had enough of the whining in this folder. Are you people all really emotionally 10 years old? :And for a long time, I wasn't clear enough about my real needs to resist :when someone I respected told me that I should take the next course or :Intensive. The thing is, I wasn't alone, and Gurumayi had swamis stand up :in evening programs saying things as irresponsible as "Everyone should :take the Intensive". Oh come on, please! If I ate everything in the Amrit, every time anyone suggested "Everyone should really try the burritos", I'd be five hundred pounds! More generally, my experience has always been that the immature people immediately want to be "close" to Gurumayi and so put out effort to become part of the "inner circle". Why would anyone do this? Only ego! They also like the ego satisfaction of being privy to secrets and bossing other people around. Their ego wants the satisfaction of having personal affirmation from Gurumayi about how wonderful they are. The only problem is --- that is the LAST thing a real Guru would do. The whole advantage of having a living Guru is to *crush* your ego. Of course if they were READING about Siddha Yoga, instead of spending all their time trying to insinuate themselves into the organization, they would understand this. When after working hard for a long time, they don't get their ego stroked by Gurumayi, they get angry and leave the organization -- which is probably fine -- since they're not looking for those things it provides. You should note that when people angrily leave an organization or a relationship (and Siddha Yoga is both!), it is VERY common for them to fabricate lies about those who are the object of their anger. But while we see on the news that people go so far as to spray bullets through their former places of employment, somehow we can't accept that others might just lie instead. We don't even consider that any of these stories might be subject to the "telephone" process, that the actual incidents might be quite different from what really happened. Those who are too wrapped up in their ego to receive any benefit from Siddha Yoga find those anecdotes very plausible. Those who have found Siddha Yoga to be very beneficial in their lives are less likely to swallow them whole. Namaste Subj: Re:X1195, the Perfect Nazi Date: 95-08-09 05:54:00 EDT From: HenryD7890 Yes, the perfect Nazi. "Those people just don't recognized greatness when they see it, so they whine and make up ridiculous stories about gas chambers." How about the young woman I know, just barely 20, who was sexually harassed by George Afif for more than a year. It was ongoing because when she told Gurumayi about it, GM blamed her for what was happening; she made the girl stay in a seva very close to Afif; she told the girl never to tell anyone else what was going on and especially never to tell her mother, a long time devotee; and finally Gurumayi blamed this young woman for the falling apart of some grandiose project, which in fact was entirely Afif's fault; and kicked this young woman out of the ashram. When she finally tried to tell her mother what happened, her mother didn't believe her, and said, "well, maybe it's your karma." Eventually, her mother did believe her, and she and many others left syda; only to find that Gurumayi has Namdev Hayes and others tell people who ask about this young woman that the girl was a slut. So you, X1195, are being used by Gurumayi as one of her Facsist brown shirts, as one of the people who she knows will never expose her viciousness, because she has you completely in her power. And if you think that the people who left are lying because of bruised egos, the fact is they are telling the truth horrible truth they tell because they were more loyal and more faithful to the guru than most; they loved more; they believed more. How sickening to see the word namaste at the end of your post. Just like the Nazis used the swastika. To:X1195 - From: E2233 Your recent comments have been very stimulating. Here are some more questions for you. You speak of Milarepa, and destroying the devotee's ego, and consider that to be what SYDA dissenters object to because of their own big egos that got hurt. So please answer these questions: 1. Are you saying that you do not believe that Baba spent night after night, year after year, bringing young girls to his room, where he laid them down on his specially built table, and had sex with them? And did all this while claiming to be celibate, and chastising others for having sexual impulses? Or are you saying that you do believe this happened, but that it happened for the benefit of modifying the egos of the young girls he had sex with? And that his refusal to be accountable about this, when confronted with accusations, was also for the sake of improving devotees' egos? 2. Are you saying that you do not believe that Gurumayi approved of and instigated countless harassments, threats and violent actions against her brother, Nityananda? Or are you saying that she did involve herself in these activities over a period of many years, but that it was the action of a great guru busting her brother's big ego, and not the obssessive, sick vindictiveness of a ruthless and dishonest megalomaniac? 3. Are you saying that you do not believe that Gurumayi allowed George Afif to continue to prey on scores and scores of young girls in the ashram by seducing them or sexually harrassing them? Or are you saying that she used Afif to help bust the egos of these young girls, or burn their karmas, or engage them in some other yogic process? You have consistently avoided addressing these specific issues, among all the others, like the discrimination against homosexuals, the secret surveillance and spying that goes on in the ashram, the unethical manipulation of how therapists work with clients, etc. etc. etc. I would appreciate it if you would respond to the above questions on this board, and explain whether you are saying that these things did not happen, or that they happened by the grace of a master who must take extraordinary measures to activate yogic processes in his/her devotees. Of course, you know that I believe that SYDA uses the concept of yogic processes activated by the guru as a deceptive hoax intended to cover a multitude of sins. Subj: ONE THING IS SURE... Date: 95-08-09 20:07:08 EDT From: Fafoofnik If SYDA is as rotten at the core as these many allegations say it is, then it will all come out some day--it *must*. And many will be vindicated, many will be avenged, and many will pay--and many will get away scot free. Don't *ever* give away control of your own life. You do it at your peril. Subj: Re: miracle 101 Date: 95-08-10 00:33:03 EDT From: LD3140 Dear Miracle, I wish gurumayi would practice what she preaches.There was no respect or gentleness in the way she sent people to harass her brother, nor in the way she failed to protect the young women who came to her for protection against George Afiff's sexual harassment. She has no respect for the many devotees who have served her faithfully for years. If she had respect for them she would take responsibility for her failure to act according to the principle of "ahimsa" or non injury, one of the qualities by which you can identify a true guru.LD3140's partner Subj: Re: Kumuda's & MahaChitti's turn Date: 95-08-10 01:21:02 EDT From: Dissent670 I'd like to thank you both for reaching into yourselves and speaking straightforwardly of your experiences with your own voice. They have real (and rare) heart. I had some amazing experiences in SY too. I certainly felt something. There is certainly some power there. I feel some heartache reading your posts, and a recurring doubt: did I miss something after all those years? Then a voice filled with derisive guilt that sounds just very much like X1195 nags me. Why did I pull away? Was I just afraid to be "fully baked"? Am I on an ego rampage? How can I judge a saint with my puny human understanding? Here's the thing: evidence is mounting that GM has plenty of growing up to do herself. Yet she doesn't say so. She allows everyone to perpetuate a myth of perfection around her. And I just can't relate to that. There's heartlessness in that which does not inspire me. Or rather, the heartlessness in her denial of her real humanity eventually inspires me to post in ways that true-believing devotees object to. I'm not going to change GM tapping away on my silly typewriter here late at night. I'm not going to change the huge, mounting collective desire for a convincing myth of salvation (with highly selective, emotionally correct experiences used to back it up). But I can benefit myself and perhaps a couple others by at least speaking up about it. I did not personally experience the sheer cruel abuse that E2233 describes. My painful journey was more of my own madness, and how it interacted with what the Programming Department was putting out. The reportage of the Open Letter demonstrates the forms such madness can take as one gets "close to the Guru". What does it mean, that those who work with GM closely must lose consciousness in order to become loyal to her? Are we being asked to interpret this fact as yet more evidence of GM's divine power? I have come through my experience having developed a nose for fraud and I am simply going "sniff sniff". Seems most readers could do without the service. I am saddened but not discouraged to see that so many devotees find this path an inappropriate place to practice what, for me, has been a hard-won and highly valued survival skill. If we are feeling threatened, isn't it helpful to examine where the threat really is? So Kumuda and MahaChitti, I can't touch your experiences. They have heart, and with heart you can fight the abuses because you can feel them. Not everyone can, or wants to. It is the burden of maturity. I wish you the best. Subj: Re: MataChiti's post Date: 95-08-10 02:34:18 EDT From: TBoggis Thank you for your articulate contribution to this board. I'm sure it was terribly challenging to describe a very nearly indescribable experience, but it was lucid and clear and helped provide a balance. I have been reading this board since January, and have never felt it to be so worthwhile as it has been since the 5-part letter posting. There have been many thoughful and worthwhile messages from all positions. I have a lot to contemplate. Subj: On SYDA testimonials (1 of 2) Date: 95-08-10 06:50:21 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 2 - On SYDA testimonials. The ubiquitous well-oiled testimonials. To hear the benefits people doubtlessly have had while attached to such places as SYDA, Nityananda's ashram, Da Free John's, and Rajneesh's (to name a few better-known places) reminds us of what has been true since the first group religion: That "experience talks"--embarrassing, narcissistic public testimonials--are a central bonding ritual which reinforces group identity, recruits new believers, propagandizes, and sells merchandise. In SYDA, the stand-up experience talker is a HEAVILY-COACHED AND EDITED ventriloquist's dummy manipulated by the "programming department." With repeated exposures, listening devotees passively learn to ape the stand-up dummy. The result is, devotees automatically interpret their very real experiences by the VERY SURREAL lights of SYDA's conceptual system and organizational objectives. Since devotees are taught by example to report their private experiences to anyone within earshot--in SYDAesque terms, of course--these testimonials are everywhere thrust in your face. The sad truth is, these traveling talkers are truly unaware of how parrot-like their bracketing and interpretation of experience appears to others. What is conspicuously missing from these testimonials is a frank acknowledgment that DISCIPLES' EXPERIENCES CONTINUE NO MATTER WHAT MISCONDUCT THE GURU ENGAGES IN. Experienced seekers know this. The failure of "experience talkers" to admit this shows a tremendous lack of spiritual maturity and curiosity. The fact that "the big experience" occurred around a "certified hypocrite" would be about the first thing any free thinker would mention in an experience talk, I should think. The ritual of "experience talks" helps the guru learn that he/she can get away with murder. A guru commits an abuse and then hears someone an hour later describe him/her as the source of a God-experience. In this way, experience talks function as the guru's green light for abuses. Gurumayi herself has implied she can get away with anything. When asked about her overnight trysts with Afif, she is reported to have said: "You should know that nothing I could do would affect what I've been given." (New Yorker article) Though the guru can do anything she wants and your experiences continue, it also holds that YOU CAN LEAVE WITH INTEGRITY and have your experiences continue. SEE PART 2 Subj: On SYDA testimonials (2 of 2) Date: 95-08-10 06:51:44 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 2 - On SYDA testimonials. That disciples' experiences don't depend on a guru's "purity" shows how little-understood kundalini yoga actually is! The guru can be a slimebucket, and disciples' experiences continue! Why don't we dispense with the old-hat experience talks, and instead focus on examining the nature of this awesome energy--WITHOUT PRETENDING WE HAVE THE ANSWERS just because we subscribe to Darshan magazine and Ram Butler. Let's get to the bottom of this together, in the light of day, with self-respect, without rationalizations. Future researchers of kundalini will view our society as a mixture of blinkered religious maniacs and indifferent scientists. Let's admit it: the existing accounts of kundalini are utterly unacceptable and incomplete. Let's drop the unproductive, rehearsed charade and do something forward-looking. If kundalini is all that it's cracked up to be--and my experiences suggest that it is--your shakti (and its benefits) won't leave you even if you dare to look at the whole picture. And experience talkers: Please try to imagine how frightening your narcissistic standard of truth appears to those who respect the "golden rule." Note: SYDA party-liners who have been taught that Nityananda is a phony guru and Gurumayi is not, be advised that people have been reporting big experiences at his ashram. According to SYDA's "experience talk" standard, this makes him kosher. So why can't SYDA acknowledge the "experiences" of his community? Subj: Re:On SYDA testimonials Date: 95-08-10 13:18:04 EDT From: JamesRTE It seems that Howie is in a state of mind where even intelligent, open discussion is out of the question. When he sees a ray of light in this forum, he grabs it and tries to throw it into his cesspool of hatred and slime. Well, light can't be so easily destroyed. It is clear you haven't even read the two posts you are ranting about. You just have these neat little boxes labeled "me" and "them" -- classic signs of neurotic paranoia. Even if you have something worthwile to say, it is completely lost in your undisciplined and thoughtless rage. I suggest that you stop and take a breath and think about what you really are trying to say. Is it anything more than what was said in the 5-part open letter? Because your crazed demeanor is taking credibility away from even the well thought out criticisms of Siddha Yoga. Is it helping you to release all of your deep seeded anger to just keep lashing out and accusing and trying to take away anyone's belief in something good? The point you are trying to make has already been made in a much clearer and less fanatical way. I think a vacation in the Bahamas would do you some good. Don't go crazy over this. Make your point and move on with your life. Letter to JamersRTE: Probably the most insidious aspect of the heartlessness and cruelty of SYDA Yoga is the way in which it teaches adherents, like JamesRTE, or Rajas Guna (surely you mean Tamas), to "do the practices," "refrain from gossip," "trust your own experience," etc. The endlessly lulling, hypnotic phrases that create the real veil of Maya, that blinds people like those mentioned to dishonesty, corruption, fraud, sexual abuse, and all the other aspects of SYDA that go unnoticed or ignored. Aren't you supposed to be compassionate, awakened and enlightened? Why is it that you put loyalty above decency, above the truth? Isn't that exactly how every fascist dictatorship works? So JamesRTE complains about Howie Sm being angry? HEADLINE: POT CALLS KETTLE BLACK! James, relax. Howie is just pointing out what is obvious to the vast majority of people in this world who haven't been turned into SYDA zombies, which is that experience talks are about saying the right thing to please the Guru. That's why they always have to find new devotees to give them, and why the old speakers only have their few old stories they tell over and over again. Over time, these experiences sound more and more hollow and unreal even to the ones who give them. So if you know any of the swamis personally, for example, and you are aware of how cynical and sarcastic and compulsive many of them are privately, compared to their public show of saintliness, you start to see how hollow and manufactured so much of the show business of experience talks really is. Anyway, it's discouraging to see people calling themselves spiritual seekers who act more like Nazi book burners; direct your hatred to the ones who really deserve it: the sexual abusers, the liars, the thieves and con-men who call themselves SYDA gurus. Letter: If I were a parent at a school, and other parents reported their children had been sexually harassed by the principal of the school; no matter what I thought of the reputation of that principal, I would insist on an investigation and I would get rid of that principal and/or pull my kids out of that school. And I bet most of you people on this board would do the same. Now here we have reports from the New Yorker, Stan Trout's open letter, and the Open Letter posted by E2233, that describe exactly this situation and many other intolerable offenses, and what is the response? To attack the people making the allegations. To tell them to get a life, to shut up, to ignore them, to say that they are doing it out of spite, out of damaged egos, out of any motive other than what their real motive obviously is, which is TO TELL THE TRUTH! Now who would like to address these issues, rather than attack those who seek to address them? Who would dare ask Gurumayi about these things? After all, you might incur her displeasure and be put on THE REGISTRAR'S LIST, which would alert registration and security that you are not to be allowed in the ashram. Did you know that anyone who went to Swami Nityananda's ashram and was found out by SYDA spies is on that list? And if you don't make the "throw them out immediately" category, you make the "keep an eye on them category." So why else do people not address the allegations and instead attack those who do? Fear, perhaps? Fear of what? Fear of being condemned to a waterless region? Defense? - Automatic denial, splitting, repression, officially encouraged and supported by "the practices?" Defense against what? You know, you're not really to blame. Even those who were the victims of these offenses are still frightened to speak out, and that is why we remain anonymous. We don't want to get sued by SYDA's law firm, the same one that represents Scientology, btw. We don't want Geo. Afif to come and have us beaten up or threaten to pour acid on our faces, as he did at Baba's command to those who first spoke up in Oakland. We are frightened, or ashamed of having been seduced, and so we try to go on with our lives. Yet we also try to find a way to speak out and warn others. So yes, the fear is understandable. There's another fear. Gurumayi has validated your existence by giving you a spiritual experience. That experience proves to you that God loves you; it has healed all the pain of feeling unloved and unlovable and unseen and unheard. Now what if Gurumayi is a fraud? Does that mean that you are in fact unlovable again? Do you become invalidated if she is a fraud? Do you cease to have a foundation on which to feel your existence has meaning? You've given your whole life, you've told everyone, you've even alienated old friends and family members, so that you could say you are 100% loyal to the Guru. Now what if she's a fraud? Then who will be there for you? That's another big fear for some, perhaps. Maybe for more of you than can realize this now. Kumuda, who posted her grateful letter, is said to be following Gurumayi's command that she give $100,000 to Gurumayi for the many years she worked day and night without sleep and for almost no pay in the ashram as the video editor. Is that true, Kumuda? You may think you are paying out of love and gratitude, but I think you are paying (if in fact you are, as others are) - I think you are really paying out of FEAR. The automatic attacks on those who attempt to shed light on the truth about the pedophilia, the lying, the violence and the cruelty, and the complete deafness and dumbness about these offenses, are further evidence that the open letter is true. Your loyalty is given at the cost of your integrity. Someone who demands loyalty at the price of integrity is a parasite, feeding and empowering themselves off the love and trust of their victims. Subj: Re:On SYDA testimonials (2 of 2) Date: 95-08-10 15:27:44 EDT From: E3346 Howie, For a moment there I was almost swayed by one of the testimonials. I work very on my meditation and hope that someday, I'll feel what all these people seem to have felt/experienced. I was hoping that the hard work and honest devotion might get me there, if not in this lifetime, then perhaps in another. But when I read letters about this instantaneous transmission, I feel......well...where do I sign up??!!! It is very seductive. I am not against SYDA in any way and feel that it is as valid as any other path but I'm not sure I enjoy feeling that by not prescribing to their way that I won't get it. I could be wrong...maybe those devoutly involved in SYDA acknowledge other ways of receiving this Divine Grace. I live near the Oakland Ashram and do visit the cave room from time to time. It's nice there and I have always been welcomed and *never* pressured in any way. Could I actually attend a meeting or seminar with Gurumayi, see her in person, for free? There are many places I can walk into for free that hold forms of the Devine or representatives of the Devine. Could I meet the Pope for free? (I know that, he too, is very busy) Seems to me that all of these people have layers upon layers of people to go through in order to get near to them. (well, maybe not Mother Theresa) It seems to me that this separation occurs every where and perhaps it is more a function of the ego belonging to those who are the in the circles and the layers around the Guru . Just a thought......(am I beginning to sound like Stephen?) Anyway, thanks Howie for your lucid point. E Subj: Re:On SYDA testimonials (2 of 2) Date: 95-08-10 10:23:20 EDT From: Tapasya 4U Truth, like murder, will out. Subj: Focus on the goal Date: 95-08-10 23:48:23 EDT From: Rajas guna Isn't this just a lot of emotional masturbation? Do any of you like, have a life or any practices that might be done? Not the non devotees, I understand you have nothing better to do but wallow on line and live part of your life when you were most alive over and over again, but for those on the path, are there better way to spend the little time left? Subj: Re:Focus on the goal Date: 95-08-11 07:22:20 EDT From: HenryD7890 Oh, and speaking of emotional masturbation, Rajas Guna, thanks for coming on the board. Don't worry - someday all the critics will disappear, and the board will regress once again to its true, ultimate SYDA spokesperson... the one, the only SPV10! Subj: The Path Date: 95-08-11 12:02:36 EDT From: Wolfddy One would think that we have all converged here for the very reason of working out some piece on our respective paths. Siddha or not, respect is sincerely lacking, in my opinion, among those who wish to warn/trash those of us who believe what we will. I respect your position. Please respect mine. And by the way, I have had such experiences that I have heard in public testimonials and would be happy to share them. I assure you I would require no coaching , ghost writing or editing. There is much to glean from Buddha's message.... WD Subj: you all Date: 95-08-11 14:41:03 EDT From: Chundikay I liked it James when you said to Howie,"The point you are trying to make has already been said in a much clearer and less fanatical way". That's funny. Only thing is.... I do not remember hearing what he said and I've read everything here since December. My own experience is that the intense spirtitual experiences only started to re-occur *after I left Siddha Yoga*. Maybe I have to have something repeated in order to get it. Maybe what he said was said before, and I just don't remember it. Also it is my own personal experience that I'd much rather read SPV10 than listen to Swami Durgananda any day of the week. (Don't mean single her out. Somehow she got the thankless job of having to get up and deliver a shill for what we all 'need' in order to be alright. Mostly this entails selling programs.) Anyway it's just a matter of taste. Also, Raja Guna, why does it bother you so much that people like to chat on the line. If there are better ways to spend 'the time left' why are you here. You remind me of the kid who opens his eyes to check and see if the the other kids have their eyes closed or not. And then tells. Love to Charlie47, Howie, SPV10 (I believe you about your technique, it sounds enchanting) ;=), Love to James, Maha Chiti, and Kumuda and all of you. Gurumayi too. Durgananda---sorry for the harsh words. I'd love to hear you just speak out and say what you've got to say with no apologies, in the strong voice I know you have. You have an amazing voice. I wish I could hear it. Subj: You find what you look for. Date: 95-08-11 15:22:17 EDT From: Tapasya 4U There is no rule more invariable than that we are paid for our suspicions by finding what we suspect. --Thoreau (That doesn't mean there aren't people out there just waiting to suck up all the personal power you're willing to give away. Like someone here said, when you give away yourself, you do it at your peril.) Subj: Fwd another open letter sec. 1 Date: 95-08-12 18:44:09 EDT From: Chipwitz My friend wanted me to type this on the computer for you. He hopes it is interesting to someone. It is in 3 sections because it is long. Section 1. How are you?I have been doing Yoga for 19 years now.I met Muktananda in 1978 and toured the country with him for 2 years.I have held Staff positions in Fallsburg,Oakland,Santa Monica, and Manhattan. I have had numerous private darshans and letters with Baba and Gurumayi.I feel I must write this letter, even though many will reject it.I owe it to you because many of you are basically good human beings who mean well, but are naive or new. And enough is enough! Supernatural powers do not make one a Saint! Awakening kundalini is a transferable power. Over the years, I have seen dozens of half-baked swamis give it. Gurumayi's brother performed it and still performs it. If one sits next to another shaktified person, you can also get it. If the kitchen head tells me to chop onions, and I feel a lot of shakti from doing that, does that make the head a saint? Of course not. MUCH of the Shakti that you feel comes from the power of the sacred Sanskrit language, your intent, belief and group energy. Subj: Fwd another open letter sec. 2 Date: 95-08-12 18:44:56 EDT From: Chipwitz Section 2. I don't care if Gurumayi is visiting you on the astral realms every night. Only infinite amounts of love, humility, honesty, openess and compassion can make one a saint, and I have seen little of this in my many years. Is it compassion when MC's subtly pressure newcomers into taking 400$ intensives when it can be obtained for free simply by participating in the Ashram practices? Is it love when devotees harass and picket Nityananda's satsangs? Or when people are thrown out of SYDA simply because they ask Gurumayi about her brother or attend one of his satsangs? Why all this paranoia and Shaktipat trademark business? Was it compassion when Gurumayi slashed her brother's tires and locked the gates of the Ganeshpuri Ashram so he couldn't leave? Why are so many of Baba's books not sold anymore? Why has "Play of Consciousness" even been altered? Why have the majority of swamis, trustees and many devotees that I did sadhana with back in 1980 vanished? Why was Gurumayi's Parents thrown out of Ganeshpuri? Why don't they talk anymore? Why was Nityananda Jr. picked as a successor, if Baba was so omniscient? Why did he drop dead shortly after putting in writing that he would tour the world 3 more times? Why is it that when we write to Gurumayi about all these scandals they are never answered? Why did Gurumayi wait so many years before disclosing her brother's secret life? If you think that Gurumayi isn't aware of EVERYTHING mentioned in this letter, you are hopelessly brainwashed and naive. I would encourage you to contact the Cult Awareness Network. They have some very important articles concerning SYDA. Univ. library also has pertinent back issues of Illustrated Weekly of India. See January 19 and March 16, 1986 issues. You should also read the letter that was sent to all the centers by SYDA shortly after Nityananda Jr. left the scene. What I'm including in this letter is only a small part of the story! "Where there is smoke, there is fire". This is a letter Janet sent to the editors of Common Boundary. She gave me permission to post it on the Net. Janet can be contacted through me. Arianna Elise Lindemann Director, White Lotus Dharma Center http://www.speakeasy.org/~ari ari@speakeasy.org Dear Common Boundary Letters editor: ,~ . I spent the past year experiencing first hand what it's like to speak out about abuses suffered at the hand of a psycho-spiritual teacher who is much loved by many people. I'm way past ready for the psycho-spiritual community to grow sophisticated in its response to abuse. The letters you published written in response to the Andrew Harvey interview are illustrative of the hurtful denial that an abuse victim typically faces when he or she finally reveals a violation and turns toward a community for understanding and support. Please learn: 1. The victim's voice -- his pain, his wisdom -- is typically invalidated because he is "too angry," "spiteful," "muddled in his thinking," (Georg Feuerstein) and "going through extreme personal upheaval" (Kim Chernin). Reminiscent of women's historical mistreatment by psychiatry (women were "hysterical"), the community thus justifies its disregard of the victim, and avoids dealing with valid rage that is so necessary for a victim to feel and express in order to heal from abuse. There's an implication that intense feeling and clear understanding are mutually exclusive; to the contrary, those who resist feeling intensely will have difficulty understanding the reality of abuse. Particularly, the ideology of the psycho-spiritual community invalidates anger in the name of spirituality and "love," as if anger is somehow impure, unspiritual, in opposition to love, and not a healthy human response to hypocrisy, cruelty, and violation. You can sanctimoniously dissect a victim's suffering, preaching psychospiritual dogma of character flaws, overattachment, and self-responsibility, and never deal with the reality of abuse and injustice at all. 2. other community members (like Kelly Cross, Martin Soloman, and other letter writers) defend the abuser and their continued, unaltered relationship with him/her by citing their own positive experiences. They imply either that the abuse therefore couldn't have happened, or that it's irrelevant to them. Is it so hard to consider that both experiences may be valid? If your guru genuinely inspired you and cruelly abused the people closest to him, mightn't you want to re-evaluate the meaning of your own relationship with such a person? Should he not be held fully accountable for his abuses, just because you've loved him? (If he isn't, they're very likely to get worse.) ;. 3. People blame the victim for hurting the perpetrator by speaking out; and when the community re l. X victimizes the victim with its ignorance, denial, and lack of compassion, he's blamed for bringing this upon himself (as Robert Batten comes close to suggesting). , .. I Look at how much energy is directed toward Andrew Harvey, invalidating what he has to say: so much anger toward him, and so little toward Mother Meera for her cruelty and hypocrisy! I recognized all these patterns of denial from my own experience, and I suspect many incest and other trauma survivors did too. Gurus are falling like dominos these days. How many more gurus must fall before we reevaluate our relationships with gurus, therapists, and spiritual teachers? even, our relationships with each other? When an abuse happens, more than anything the victim needs a community willing to hear her experience, to know the truth. This, unfortunately, is a rare experience indeed for abused children, for incest victims; for victims of sexual abuse and ha rassment by gurus, spiritual teachers, priests, psychotherapists, Supreme Court Justice nominees; for battered wives, ex-political prisoners, holocaust survivors, Vietnam veterans, trauma survivors. No one really wants to hear about trauma and abuse. This isolation is usually the worst injury of all. As a "healing" community, I think our greatest commitment must be to face and know the extremity of human abuse; to do so requires facing our constant tendency toward denial, about others and ourselves. The dynamics of abuse permeate our relationships, our families, our politics; but let's start by looking at all the guru and therapist abuse in our midst. I'd like to see the psycho-spiritual community, and your magazine, take this subject on. Is it really healthy to "surrender" to a guru, spiritual teacher, therapist? Are these "chaste" spiritual communities really healthy? Maybe sexuality is the litmus test of a community's integrity. Let people tell their stories. Let's listen, let's bear witness. Let's dare to get angry! It needn't cost us our hearts. Janet King Subj: Fwd another open letter sec. 3 Date: 95-08-12 21:22:26 EDT From: Chipwitz (This is the end of my friend's letter and goes with sections 1 and 2 a couple of messages behind. Thank you.) Section 3. I get no pleasure out of telling you these things. I love the SYDA practices. I miss my many friends in SYDA, who now want nothing to do with me. They are scared of me, because they know I don't lie or make stuff up. I do not think it is wrong to continue with this Yoga. But people should not surrender their hard-earned money to make SYDA richer. You must go by what your mind, senses and gut tell you, not just the shakti or your chakras. That is why God gave you a brain. It is not merely an unreliable, impure egocentrical organ! One cannot buy God! New people should be told what they are getting into. I would also not bank on ANY Guru knowing what is best for you, solving your problems, or even finding you a new center. Gurumayi is still in the process of doing sadhana herself and has her own problems. Seekers are so quick to label a person a "Saint". A real saint will welcome doubts, questions, open dialogue and have nothing to hide. I suggest you be moderate, consistent and disciplined in regards to how many hours you spend doing the practices. These seminars where one spends 8 hrs a day in silence doing japa can be dangerous and imbalancing. Ditto for breath retention during pranayama. Not everyone can handle the subconscious tapes that emerge as a result. Contrary to popular opinion, there is NO ONE controlling the Shakti. Use your discrimination when doing Seva. If Gurumayi tells you to kill Nityananda Jr., or poison me, is that considered Guruseva too? Will there be Shakti in that? People have got to stop denying, repressing doubts and fears, get together and share honestly, openly. Otherwise stuff sits and festers. Isn't having courage part of the spiritual path too? You can't just rationalize away all the abuses by saying "It's good for our ego", or "it's the shakti". I'm sure some devotees will hate me for writing this letter, and will "tattletale" on me to Fallsburg. If this letter has helped one devotee out there, it was worth it. Subj: Re:Chipwitz & MahaChitti Date: 95-08-13 01:20:44 EDT From: Dissent670 Thank you, Chipwitz and friend-of-Chipwitz for posting the letter. I personally appreciate it. As you say, where there is smoke, there is fire. The question remains: is the fire simply "our deluded egos"? Is the problem that we "haven't surrendered enough" and "have negative minds"? Or is there real crazy-making brainwash going on, calling itself "teachings", "programs", and "tapasya", masking itself in scriptural yoga-speak, sidestepping into GENUINE experiences of bhakti (this is what really disgusts me) to be shared with devotees, and then flipped around to invalidate others who "don't get it about the power of the Guru". And, as you so refreshingly point out MahaChitti, what does that mean about the central tenets of "Siddha" ("Perfect") Yoga? MahaChitti, you are the first devotee to move the question forward past the invalidation and denial stages expressed by true believers, and I really congratulate you on your courage. When you see how missing it is in other devotees, do you not sense that something has gone horribly wrong? The letter has been posted for almost two weeks, yet you are the first to even say you take the allegations seriously. They are meant seriously. This is a serious matter we are discussing. I'm really glad you appreciate that. To quote you: <> Pivotal, indeed. You bring up a very important point about accountability. If the Guru is perfect, no accountability is needed, because she is accountable to God (assuming God is perfect), so devotees can leave the whole messy "worldly" question aside of justice or injustice and chant and meditate and do seva in her utopian world. The ultimate benign dictatorship, as it were. If she is NOT perfect, however, we have a real nightmare on our hands. Nightmares have a quality of being difficult to wake up from. To wake up from this one, we need to reach into thoughts and feelings we have previously rejected, and examining our motives and reasons for doing so. I have embarked on such a process for about five years now, and I have discovered this about my own gullibility: 1) I desperately wanted to be saved and rescued at a crisis time in my life. 2) I desperately wanted evidence that I was not only loved, but special in some way, and Shaktipat and the glories of the Siddha Path fed strongly into my own hubris (the flipside of my feelings of inferiority). 3) I felt a strong desire to be seduced by Gurumayi, though I sublimated sexuality yearnings into more wholesome "spiritual" ones. Yet the desire, pushed into the subconscious, now motivated my actions and decisions on a level largely outside my conscious reach. I took these vague yearnings to be "mystical" and received support for seeing them that way. 4) I liked being part of a global community of "friends". Of course, the price of that friendship, I found out later, was unquestioning devotion and faith in Gurumayi's perfection and guidance. 5) I was already convinced before I got into Siddha Yoga that anger, fear, rage, and other controversial feelings were "making me suffer" and needed to be rooted out of me if I was going to be happy. I was not willing to truly feel these feelings or listen to any information they might have for me. I just blamed myself for having them. When I discovered Siddha Yoga, I also discovered: a) a supernatural force/being capable of "purifying" me of these nasties, and b) a community of people similarly concerned, who could "help" and "understand" my need to "conquer" these feelings. Subj: Re:Chipwitz & MahaChitti pt. 2 Date: 95-08-13 02:04:25 EDT From: Dissent670 So now that we are growing up a bit, is it a sign of evil intent to ask for a little accountability? Since you have references, go back to the pre-1982 publications and you will probably find several quotations about the need for novice disciples to test their Gurus. Have you ever heard Gurumayi say anything like that? I have not. But I have heard plenty about how we are supposed to accept the Guru's tests. Thank you Ram Butler. The Nityananda-to-Muktananda lineage controversy you mention also clearly shows that the real story of this yoga is far more complicated and human than the dust-cover blurbs on SYDA publications ever want to imply. I used to think that it was simply doing newcomers a service to keep things "simple". Is it really - especially since newcomers NEVER get any more real information about the controversies and complexities unless they really seek it out (rare), and then risk ostracization? I would feel guilty and furtive if someone made an aside to me that was clearly outside of the party line, especially in the ashram. Now why would I have such a feeling if there was official openness around historical truth? I'm really glad you bring up the example of senior-Nityananda's "improper actions" resulting in unexpected benefits. To me, it illustrates several things: 1) Ancient miracle stories of long-dead personages are still being circulated today as fervently-desired evidence of Gurumayi's supposed power to confer similiar benefits 2) Abuses such as those reported in the Open Letter are clearly having no beneficial effects on the recipients, and yet such actions are being lumped into this category of "unexpected and controversial methods used by Siddhas to confer blessings on their devotees". I find this a highly suspect categorization that deserves close examination by any disciple concerned with his or her own maturity. All one needs to do is talk to one of the victims. Can't find any? Surprise, they've been kicked out, shamed into silence, or split the scene on their own. Or worse yet, they are giving talks on how wonderful it is that the Guru is working so powerfully on their egos. Don't pay attention to their eating disorders, however. Go back to your practices, read your Correspondence Course, and keep your mind on the Absolute. The Guru hates gossip. It is right and fitting that you should bring up Gurumayi's brother, because her relationship with him can hardly be construed as enlightened or beneficial. And because her own mother is outspoken, she bans her from her ashrams. This is not likely to be reported in hushed tones 80 years from now as one of Gurumayi's many misunderstood miracles. Given her way, the information would be suppressed entirely. So who indeed are we serving here? Do we deserve some answers that honor what integrity we have not already "sacrificed"? Or are we to assume that Ultimate Truth overrides everything else and keep confusing fear for love? Others may be able to live this way, but I cannot. Subj: Re:Tapasya4U's healing request Date: 95-08-13 02:29:32 EDT From: Dissent670 Okay, Tapasya, can you handle some? <> I will do so. What you are implying behind your plea for peace is that we have no right to question eachothers' experiences. We should absolutely not challenge anything anybody says, because they are all equally valid, right and true. In other words, no friction, no work, no communication, no relationship - NO TAPASYA. <> Yes. And? <> Could you be more specific? I am interested in addressing this concern. <> Pain about what? What is being triggered for you? Again, you imply that dissenters such as myself are "causing" you pain. What about the pain of discovering you have been worshipping a corrupt and utterly unaccountable guru? Believe me, that is painful to me. Get ready for pain, my friend. There is nothing that can be done. Sooner or later you are going to feel it, and if you move into the pain as I finally did, you will find there is information there that will help you grow. It won't kill you. There is vital information here. It is not my intention to be cruel - only to challenge. <> So what are you saying, that healing happens without pain? What are your images of healing? That the dissenters shut up and get the fuck off the board? This is important. This is indicative of SYDA conditioning around controversial feelings, and controversy in general. If you don't want to examine this, please say so explicitly. Then we would at least be stepping to a new level of emotional honesty. Believe me, I didn't want to examine this for a long time either. Subj: Liber Boomerang Date: 95-08-13 05:15:54 EDT From: Para tox I found this today and it means to me that when we try, by force, to control ourself and to control life and make it the way we 'think' it should be---rather than loving ourselves completely for what we are, we run into trouble. It means one should have the courage to face the Inner Self and the faith that 'it' will be OK and that 'it' is already OK. We should have the freedom to leave ourselves alone and to give ourselves a break. Sometimes giving ourselves a break means we must challenge ourselves. The Paradox. Remember, the Self is not a pristine concept, separated from normal life, needing to be guarded and defended against attack. It's expression is the manifestion of the entire diverse creation. The Shakti can't be so easily disturbed by whatever anyone may say. Illusion, however, can be shattered very easily by the truth. (Number 2 reminds me of SVP10. This was written by Peter Carroll.) LIBER BOOMERANG A god ignored is a demon born. Think you to expand some of your "selves" at the expense of others? That which is denied only gains power, and seeks strange and unexpected forms of manifestation. Deny death and other forms of suicide will arise. Deny sex and bizarre forms of it's expression will torment you. Deny love and absurd sentimentalities will disable you. Deny aggression only to stare eventually at the bloody knife in your own hand. Deny honest fear and desire only to create senseless neuroticism and avarice. Deny laughter and the world laughs at you. Deny magic only to become a confused robot, inexplicable even unto yourself. Subj: Re: another open letter sec. 2 Date: 95-08-13 09:55:33 EDT From: Chipwitz In the "Fwd another open letter sec. 2" post, I left out one sentence when I retyped my friend's letter for AOL. Sorry. Here it is. Have a nice day. The sentence before "Why did Gurumayi wait so many years before disclosing her brother's secret life" should be "Why are the rich, famous, and well-dressed given better seating and preferential treatment? Subj: To Dissent Date: 95-08-13 11:05:04 EDT From: Tapasya 4U <> No, I don't mean that. My pain is this: The teachings of Siddha Yoga have been extremely beneficial to me and my SO. Between the two of us, there's 25 years in Siddha Yoga. Neither I nor my SO have ever had any horrible traumatizing experiences, yet I do not dismiss the allegations against the lineage. I'm not naive enough to suppose that SY is the world's only "clean" path in that regard. "How do I go on with SY not knowing the truth about the lineage" is part of the pain; how do I keep my own integrity staying in a path where the teachings are true and the teacher may not be? (For me, the teachings are more important than any current teacher; the message is more important than any current messenger.) <> No, Dissent, you are not causing me pain. My "pain" is trying to walk a tightrope here. I am curious: what are you doing on this board? I feel your anger. What is *your* message? What is the information you would have me discover? The choices I see here are thise: Stay on the path wearing blinkers. Leave the path. Do something to run the risk of retaliation. Keep quiet. <> I know you're not trying to be cruel, and I don't take what you say as cruel. I feel your outrage at betrayal and your frustration in being held back in doing something effective about it. <> No, never. I'm saying, why must we fight each other on this board? (Continued next entry) Subj: Re:Tapasya4U's healing request Date: 95-08-13 11:11:48 EDT From: Tapasya 4U (Continued from the first entry) Could we not brainstorm a way to set aside our differences and work out some way to resolve our own minds and hearts in a situation that--it seems to me--we really have no power to change. <> No, *unless* this dissent can be replaced by something better. <> I am not one of those conditioned by SYDA. I refuse to be. But just "dissent" as you put it doesn't even relieve the anger and the frustration. You mention emotional honesty. By all means, let's have more of it. All I'm saying is this: I've followed all this stuff on this board for more than a year, and it just goes round in circles. As someone said on some prior post, if SYDA is rotten at the core, it will topple some day. Meantime what do we do? Do just sit around here chewing on each other? Peace to you. Subj: Circles? Not! Date: 95-08-13 15:52:55 EDT From: Para tox It is my experience that this message board is not going in circles. I don't mean to deny to flow of other's experience. This is really only a computer board. Very usefull in it's own way. Amazing and marvelous and I worship it. However I view the 'calls' for it to become a 'place of healing' or 'a place of resolution' in the same way I viewed the calls previouly on this board, earlier this year, to change the board into something more appropriate to standard Siddha Yoga. People thought it should become a place of Siddha Yoga as understood by those who surrender to Gurumayi, visit the ashram regularly etc. Maybe such people should look into a Siddha Yoga WWW page. There could be pictures of Gurumayi, audio, video, experience testimonials, discussion of the scripures of Kashmir Shavism etc. In this way the staff of the SYDA foundation would have control of whatever was in it. We should not make the mistake (and I have a feeling noone is listening to me on this), of wanting to 'do' anything more on this board than what we are already doing. ( I obviously know everyone's going to do exactly what they want anyway.) If you want to say anything more or different, just say it. Obviously there are unresolved feelings calling for closure. Listening to one another is in itself a practice. Why isn't that enough, if it isn't? Really sharing our feelings and thoughts, especially for those of us who have not felt able to do so before, or have not been able to find the venue, is enough. Why is there a push for 'action' or a yearning for something more. If I remember correctly, exactly those people who were calling for the board to be something different hardly had anything to say. They seemed to be calling for someone else to say something 'more appropriate'. They apparently didn't know what that might be, because they hardly posted themselves. All they knew was they didn't like what was here. What we are doing is action enough. What is it, exactly, the people who are asking for healing, for resolution, for renewal, want? I recognize and sympathize with the call for it but what can you honestly expect to get out of a computer bbl. You're looking where it isn't. I am so happy to just listen to you all. I feel connected to you and know that I have often seen many of you and maybe even spoken to many of you over the years. But without knowing you even a little bit until now. (am crying now.) Am sorry I feel the need to be anonomous. May I not use it to hurt anyone. Why do you want to change it? Why is it not enough? Subj: To Open Letter readers Date: 95-08-13 07:46:05 EDT From: HenryD7890 Well, this board is getting interesting. The incredible disparity between the experience of those who know GM through their "inner experience," as well as through their fantasies and idealizations - and those who know her as she really is, is indeed astonishing. Here are a few stories of the objectively real Gurumayi, not the inwardly experienced Gurumayi: In the early 80s, adivasi laborers at the Ganeshpuri ashram went on strike for more money and were sitting-in in front of the ashram. This is how they were handled: Devotees, under the supervision of Geo.Afif and Gurumayi, poured boiling ghee from the rooves on the heads of the adivasis. That broke up the demonstration. Later, one of the construction crew men took a group of devotees from the ashram and went around the adivasi villages, burning their huts. That silenced the adivasis. Next story: A chiropractor named Hola, from Oakland, was in a staff darshan with Gurumayi. GM asked her a question, she stood up, and dropped dead. Since I wasn't in this darshan, I don't know what happened. But I remember well that "official word from the managers" went out immediately. "Hola died in the car on the way to the hospital, not in the ashram." Even though my supervisor told me that Hola died instantly, as she stood up to answer the question, it was urgently important that her death be placed outside the ashram. "It's very inauspicious for someone to die in the ashram." We all knew, the loyal staff, that we had been cued to make sure that everyone was going to tell the same story: she didn't die in the darshan, she died in the car, after she left the ashram. We all knowingly agreed that this version of the story would be for everyone's good. Several of Hola's friends wrote letters to Gurumayi to express their feelings about Hola's death. They were told by Gurumayi to pack their bags and leave the ashram immediately. Here's a little story I witnessed: GM was walking through the GSP offices, when someone showed her a Time Magazine article about Neil Simon. Apparently because he met Baba and then later rejected Siddha Yoga in the early 80s, GM didn't like reading about him as the cover story on Time magazine. She said (I was standing right there): "Neil Simon is going to be reborn as a pauper, because his plays are about nothing but ... PASSION." Now, was GM turned off to passion because her lover, George Afif, was sleeping with so many other women, and teenage girls? Was it because she didn't like how Baba had slept with hundreds of young girls and young women? Is this why she sees Passion as something evil, that a successful playwright should be punished in the next life for? Like Chipwitz's friend, I was around a long time and saw a lot going on. I ignored it and rationalized it then; I'll be damned if I will now. I sat in an old time Indian devotee's kitchen once. He's a real old timer, goes around the ashram yelling "RAM" at inappropriate moments? Anyway, he was proudly describing how the young 14 year old MALTI (now Gurumayi, for the new folks) was sitting there at his table, screaming and crying, pulling her hair out, talking about Baba and saying "That crazy old man is killing me, I hate him, he's insane, he's torturing me!" We all laughed as he told this story, thinking what great sadhana she did. Now I know how sadistically she was abused and tortured, mentally and otherwise, by Baba, and why she herself is capable of such intense cruelty. The cycle of abuse continues. Subj: Re:To Open Letter readers Date: 95-08-13 17:08:05 EDT From: UmaBe Those stories are pure crap. Nobody poured boiling ghee on adivasis or burnt their huts. First of all, we wouldn't waste ghee, and second of all, the adivasis do not live in huts. They have pakka houses. The trouble was started by outside labor organizers and the strike was eventually settled amicably. As far as the Illustrated Weekly of India is concerned, you should also mention that they printed an apology and a retraction after getting all the facts. Nityananda may now be a Mahamandeleshwar, but he hasn't stopped lying about his resignation. He wanted to resign. He requested it. So, now that he has resumed his interrupted mission, it would be good if he told the truth. Subj: Re:To Open Letter readers Date: 95-08-13 18:02:00 EDT From: Howie Sm Uma Be says "Nobody poured boiling ghee on adivasis or burnt their huts. First of all, we wouldn't waste ghee . . ." What about "we wouldn't disfigure defenseless people?" Isn't that the reason that should immediately come to mind "first of all"!? Maybe the adivasis only qualified for low quality boiling oil. You are a daughter of your guru. LOL. To UmaBe from HenryD7890 "UmaBe- You have written privately and asked me to reveal my identity. I'll have to ask you to see God in my anonymity for now, as I'm not at all convinced that Afif isn't still hooked up with Gurumayi (hitherto referred to as GM). And even if he isn't, I know him very well and that sick, cruel rage of his. I know the violence that he's capable of. So you may think I'm cowardly, but I am concerned for my safety and have good reason to be. I sat before GM many times, countless times, and I saw and heard her point to something black, and she would say to her assembly, "That thing I am pointing to is white." And I, and her whole court would nod, and we'd all say, "Yes, GM, it is, it's white." So I'm not at all surprised that you want to convince me that things I have said, and that others have said, are lies. I'm sure you believe that. I used to tell people the same thing. I believed the lie I was telling, because since the lie was going to protect and defend and uphold Baba, and Gurumayi, and Shaktipat, and the Siddha lineage -- why then, it wasn't really a lie, it was beyond true or false. It was the sacred duty of a "true disciple." So I told many lies to many people, to protect and defend Gurumayi and Baba and George Afif. And I was rewarded by Gurumayi with many signs and tokens of her approval. You say you put things in an "I don't understand" file. I say that this is a sign of someone whose humanity has been atrociously violated by masters of control and exploitation, -- violated to the point that it becomes possible to overlook and ignore pedophilia and other forms of sexual abuse and harassment, homophobia, deception, violence, and cruelty. Those are the things I saw that I learned to lie about, to ignore, to defend, or to simply divert people's attention away from -- all to better serve the guru. So I must decline your invitation to have a conversation with you, in which you could relieve me of what you refer to as my unnecessary baggage. I have a sizable network of friends and allies who I feel very supported by, an who are also committed to admitting and speaking the truth about SYDA. Why not just post your opinions as freely as anyone else does here. And I will post mine. And we can all rejoice in the bliss of freedom, which, here on AOL, unlike in the ashram, does include freedom of speech. Subj: Circles and 'huts' Date: 95-08-13 20:25:40 EDT From: Para tox By the way, the Nityananda people do not like to speak up about what they have suffered under the hands of the SYDA enforcers. I know 'cause it was hard for me to get the information out of them when I would visit there. (And the suffering was not trivial.) They, unlike the supposedly 'orthodox' group, understand that anything said against one side by the other, works to the detriment of both. Both being unarguablely in the same lineage. The people around N. strove to minimize publically what was being done them. Stuff that was happening to them, in India, up until winter before last. I don't know what happened last winter because I'm out of touch now with the N. people. Ask them. If it was nothing they will definitely tell you so. They are anxious to make nicey-nice with Gurumayi and for her to leave them alone. The winter before however, when they came back from India they were very shaken up. They had said before they left that they thought Gurumayi was finished giving them trouble (wishful thinking). The detailed explaination was never complete. I mostly heard, "It was bad". At one point SYDA people blocked his way when he was traveling and jumped up and down on the hood of his car, making him turn back. Their very close disciple (I'm saying 'their', indicating Devyani and N.), said that in Maharastra the shadowing, harrassment and the paying off of various temple guards to keep them out of temples during their Yatra, backfired. My informant, a close disciple, said that in Maharastra there is a tradition whereby 'great souls' are harrassed and put through hell. Therefore, for the grassroots people, the SYDA enforcers not too subtle tactics only served to increase his stature. N.'s people, like the people of Gurumayi, like to minimize any 'negativity', so there isn't a lot of overt angst about his treatment. And he certainly doesn't write about it or make it public. He has pictures of her at his place. Shows videos in which she is included. And in fact wrote a letter to her nicely asking her to let them make peace. You see, since Baba picked them both what good does it serve him to minimize her. If Baba picked someone no good what could that possibly show about the whole set-up. The throwing out of N. should have been understood at that time as a very big mistake and likely to backfire. As it has. My intuition is that it was G. Afif's undue influence that caused it. A couple of things stand out in my mind. Been following this for years. When George Afif sued N. for slander in India--in a trial that lasted for five years, in which the penalty N. was facing was prison (in India!). N. could have called his mother (*their mother*) to testify. She was willing to do so. In fact *their parents* were being at least somewhat impoverished having to pay N.'s legal fees. They are not rich people. N. has only a handful of people who stuck with him. Anyway the Mother was not allowed to see N. for the 3 weeks he was locked-up prior to stepping down. Gurumayi made some comment to her to the effect of, "leave", but slightly stronger. I forget the exact words. This would have helped N's case, but he wouldn't use it. Also N. could have forced Gurumayi to appear in court and he wouldn't do that either. He won the case anyway. What finally turned the tide was that it was shown that George Afif lied to the court in denying that he was convicted in Calif. on charges of statutory rape. It really kills me when I hear Gurumayi talk unself-consciously about the importance of family values. I 'love' to hear her lecture people about how we should treat family members. "If you can't respect and love your own family.."Chutzpa! Two more things. I never heard of the burning of the Adivasi's huts but I did hear another chilling hut burning tale. N. enjoys Yagna's, same as Gurumayi. He founded a school a few years ago in South India, "basically a hut with a few books in it", Subj: "huts" continued Date: 95-08-13 20:49:46 EDT From: Para tox Anyway it was in order that young brahmin boys could be trained in the Vedic hymns and become priests. It was really a small place. It would be nice if the 3800 plus-year-old tradition could continue. Brahmins who can chant the hymms and perform the yagnas are another of India's endangered species. 2 thuggies were sent from you know where and burned it down. It's a little heartbreaking. Those are the two things that stick out in my mind. Like I said, the people who told me these stories were not broadcasting them (like I am doing), or eager to tell them. They told them with chagrin, shame and sadness. Still they are have tryed to push ahead, say good things about Gurumayi, and put the past behind them. I am not part of their group. By the way, if you're wondering who is writing this message. I am a hacker who has broken into someone's machine, gotten their password and is about to jump out of the window of an 64 story building. I could say bad things about N. to 'prove' I wasn't from his camp, but I don't feel like it. I'm not in love with him but I don't dislike him either. I don't dislike Gurumayi either and just hope she doesn't go mad as do so many Gurus, who have somehow fallen out of sync. Subj: My $0.02 Date: 95-08-13 21:14:15 EDT From: Yogi J I'd like to thank everyone on this board for helping me through an important time in my sadana. I've been involved in Siddha Yoga for 7 years. I've had wonderful experiences, periods of incredible growth and i'm deeply grateful for them. I have never been even close to the "inner circle". Not that the opertunities were'nt there, but i never wanted to. I've always somehow diferenciated between Siddha Yoga and SYDA. I wanted nothing to do with the Organization. To me it was always a personal relationship between myself and the Guru, and not necessarily the physical Guru. I thought of the worship of the guru as a tantric ritual, like worshiping a statue, its not the physical image but the transendental image that is the object of worship. During my first days at the ashram there were so many things i thought were so tacky. Swamis hawking GM's latest book, The trees of immortality (the money for which is probably paying off envirnmental fines), there"s something about it all that's just so CATHOLIC!! That's probably why it didn't bother me more that it should of. It was famaliar. Now we're debating the infallibility of the pope all over again. Well that's just my excuse for ignoring what was right in front of me. It was just so nice and comfortable to have a form of the Guru, a beautiful young woman, so full of love. A personal relationship. But the Guru is the liberating principle, and maybe one of the things that the guru needs to free us from is Siddha Yoga. It's just a name and a form. GM and Baba are powerful archtypical images for me,which are contradictory to the reality of their personalities. The next step in my sadana is let go of the name and form, not the principle. The behavior of the SYDA foundation all the way up to GM is unacceptable, and surely not in accordance with the concepts of Yama and Niyama. I've never been one to deny GM or Baba their humanity. It made it easier to accept their behavior as unfinished karma of the physical body. My discrimination has been there all along, it was just so COMFORTABLE, to ignore. Well i'm no longer very comfortable. I appoligize for my ramblings, and again i thank everyone on the board for your words. It's good to see that the flamings have been minimal. We're all in process. I'm not angry (maybe i should be) but i certainly understand others anger. But no matter what your point of view, if you're reading this "stuff" you're in process too. So let's indulge each other. Points of view can change hourly. Thanks again, i wish we could all get together and chant (I do miss it!) Namaste, Jahnu Subj: My experience Date: 95-08-14 10:37:54 EDT From: UmaBe First of all, Sadgurunath Maharaj Ki Jai! I would like to share some thoughts about Baba, Siddha Yoga and Gurumayi with all of you who are interested. I was drawn to Baba because I perceived him to be a knower of the Truth, and I wanted to know That. I was not disappointed. It was Baba who accepted me unconditionally and who taught me self acceptance. It was his shakti, his mantra, his grace that gave me Shaktipat and hundreds of experiences of my own Self. It was Baba who taught me that my attitude as a disciple is responsible for the experience of the Guru that I have. One of my favorite quotes along those lines is "The greater you perceive the Guru to be, the greater you become." I remember dozens of questions about the inner Guru vs. the outer Guru, and never once did Baba ever say to disregard your inner Guru. In fact, he repeated this thousands of times in his talks over the years: God, Self and Guru are three names for the same being--you. Over and over Baba repeated the same message: Kneel to your Self Honor your Self Meditate on your Self God dwells within you as you. It seems to me that this one teaching alone is worth every drop of spiritual sweat if one could just experience the truth of those words, even for a nanosecond. There were many things about Baba that I did not understand. Same is true about Gurumayi. So I keep a file called Things I Do Not Understand. It's far better to stay open to new understanding than to make up your own version of what must be happening. If Baba or Gurumayi or even Nityananda do not live up to your idea of the Guru, then turn within to your own inner Guru and be a disciple of that Guru. It was your desire to know the Truth that brought you to Siddha Yoga and gave you many positive experiences, or you would not have stayed long enough to witness any "abuse." Why trash your own experience? Contemplate it instead. Treasure it. Don't get into the extreme of rejection to balance the extreme of previous acceptance. If your awareness of the Guru does not fill your heart with unconditional love, then you are not experiencing the Guru. If no human being can fill the bill, turn within to your own inner Self and be a disciple of That. It is our responsibility as seekers of Truth to pursue our own evolution and spiritual development. To me that has become a seeking of balance on all levels of my being--physical, emotional, mental and spiritual--and Baba and Siddha Yoga and Gurumayi have been a big part of that. What has remained with me is devotion to the Guru. It was Baba who gave me that access to my own Self. Opinions about things that happened do not reside on the same page as experiences of the Self. Whether Baba was perfect, Gurumayi is perfect, or any human being is perfect is irrelevant to sadhana. What is important is what you feel, what you think, what you fill your being with. Find someone or something that you can love unconditionally. Then meditate on that love till you merge into it. You can't see it in someone else until you've seen it in yourself. Give yourself the experience of your own Self. Nothing else matters, really. Subj: My experience, by UmaBe Date: 95-08-14 15:03:37 EDT From: Chipwitz Chipwitz here. Man, I'm going to charge rent to my friends! I turn things over now to some other character (really an okay entity). This is from a friend of the friend who wrote the earlier long letter. Next time a friend of a friend of a friend. Will it ever end. Take it easy. When UmaBe says "why ruin it for yourself" I wonder why it is ruining the experience if you discard Siddha Yoga's pre-canned interpretation of the experience that we are not denying that we have and continue to have? It seems that during shaktipat some kind of emotional bond is created between disciple and guru. But this is created no matter whether the guru is of good moral character or not. It's like women who love an abusive husband no matter what they do. Who can explain it? I don't find rejecting the gurus a problem. Why doesn't UmaBe admit that the gurus are nasty people? Why does she put their nasty behavior in a "I don't understand" file? Why not call a spade a spade and go on. You'll be surprised at how your experiences don't vanish. To my mind Nityananda Jr.'s greatest teaching was when he started giving shaktipat again after the whole debacle. Something clicked in my mind and I realized the whole philosophical framework they had given us is flawed. There is something else going on here. It is really a shame that good studies can't be done of this because the disciples that have shaktipat think it's unstudiable since it is so holy, and scientists think it is just mass hypnosis so they don't think it is worth studying. Subj: Things we all understand Date: 95-08-14 17:38:56 EDT From: Howie Sm A previous post reads, "There were many things about Baba that I did not understand. Same is true about Gurumayi. So I keep a file called Things I Do Not Understand." I, in contrast, keep a file called "Things I Do Understand." I understand that pedophilia is wrong, for example. That throwing a used-up sevite out of the ashram and making her pay back rent and expenses AFTER THE FACT--under implied threat of losing the guru's blessing--is spiritual extortion. Indeed, it's the worst form of simony I've ever heard of. I understand that older SYDA disciples are backpedaling as fast as they can to a solipsistic "inner guru" position because they sense (perhaps unconsciously) that Gurumayi is getting nuttier and nuttier, and because the mountain of allegations is erupting like a volcano. They are taking the position of last resort now that all the pat excuses have grown threadbare, now that the foundation of their lives is being seriously threatened. Why don't people come clean and say--if for no other reason than to save newcomers the trouble of figuring it out for themselves--that the gurus are not what they claim to be? Is "Things I Do Not Understand File" an acceptable euphemism for "Wrongdoings File"? Clearly, the wrongdoings are not understandable precisely because the SYDA framework doesn't admit the possibility that you could have gotten shaktipat from a immoral, dangerous person. I'd warmly acknowledge the backpedaling clarion call--the call for a "retreat to the hills!" of the inner self--if it was sincere. But I don't think it is sincere. Some (but thankfully not all) of the "INNER self" people seem to be capable of only processing what their EXTERNALLY-IMPOSED brainwashing allows them to. Their failure to come clean suggests to me that they are scared to think the unthinkable because they remain under the sway of some kind of outside "mind program" that they have internalized. What makes their "INNER self" position sadly hypocritical is: you can only be afraid of something you perceive to be EXTERNAL to yourself. Many on this folder seem attached to externalities and taboos taught to them by SYDA, appearances and protestations notwithstanding. I will forever be deeply saddened by the conscious and unconscious fear that has been installed into some friends of mine. The shakti loves truth and expansion--it is not a mind policeman. Instead of rationalizing, wouldn't it be better to have a guru that you could enthusiastically do puja to? For the sake of satya, why don't we frankly tell newcomers what oldtimers know, both good and bad? Don't we all understand that a spade is a spade without having to keep files? Let's join together and explore with loving curiosity the miracles we truly don't understand, instead of claiming we don't understand things our mothers taught us when we were children--when we learned right from wrong. (Note: Since underlining is not available, capitalizations are used to highlight words and phrases, not to convey "anger" or a shouting tone of voice. Question marks indicate a gentle, not a confrontational, question. Exclamation points indicate not heated intensity, but expressions of surprise, irony, astonishment.) Subj: From the Internet: pt. 1 of 2 Date: 95-08-14 20:40:26 EDT From: DoraMir This is a letter that was on the alt.meditation group, by someone who is addressing the letter writers who responded to Andrew Harvey's recent article about false gurus. I think it beautifully addressed many of the issues on this board right now. "I spent the past year experiencing first hand what it's like to speak out about abuses suffered at the hand of a psycho-spiritual teacher who is much loved by many people. I'm way past ready for the psycho-spiritual community to grow sophisticated in its response to abuse. The letters you published written in response to the Andrew Harvey interview are illustrative of the hurtful denial that an abuse victim typically faces when he or she finally reveals a violation and turns toward a community for understanding and support. Please learn: 1. The victim's voice -- his pain, his wisdom -- is typically invalidated because he is "too angry," "spiteful," "muddled in his thinking," and "going through extreme personal upheaval" . Reminiscent of women's historical mistreatment by psychiatry (women were "hysterical"), the community thus justifies its disregard of the victim, and avoids dealing with valid rage that is so necessary for a victim to feel and express in order to heal from abuse. There's an implication that intense feeling and clear understanding are mutually exclusive; to the contrary, those who resist feeling intensely will have difficulty understanding the reality of abuse. Particularly, the ideology of the psycho-spiritual community invalidates anger in the name of spirituality and "love," as if anger is somehow impure, unspiritual, in opposition to love, and not a healthy human response to hypocrisy, cruelty, and violation. You can sanctimoniously dissect a victim's suffering, preaching psychospiritual dogma of character flaws, overattachment, and self-responsibility, and never deal with the reality of abuse and injustice at all. 2. other community members defend the abuser and their continued, unaltered relationship with him/her by citing their own positive experiences. They imply either that the abuse therefore couldn't have happened, or that it's irrelevant to them. Is it so hard to consider that both experiences may be valid? If your guru genuinely inspired you and cruelly abused the people closest to him, mightn't you want to re-evaluate the meaning of your own relationship with such a person? Should he not be held fully accountable for his abuses, just because you've loved him? (If he isn't, they're very likely to get worse.) 3. People blame the victim for hurting the perpetrator by speaking out; and when the community re l. X victimizes the victim with its ignorance, denial, and lack of compassion, he's blamed for bringing this upon himself. continued in Part 2 Subj: Internet - Part 2 of 2 Date: 95-08-14 20:41:33 EDT From: DoraMir continued from Part 1, From the Internet Look at how much energy is directed toward Andrew Harvey, invalidating what he has to say: so much anger toward him, and so little toward Mother Meera for her cruelty and hypocrisy! I recognized all these patterns of denial from my own experience, and I suspect many incest and other trauma survivors did too. Gurus are falling like dominos these days. How many more gurus must fall before we reevaluate our relationships with gurus, therapists, and spiritual teachers? even, our relationships with each other? When an abuse happens, more than anything the victim needs a community willing to hear her experience, to know the truth. This, unfortunately, is a rare experience indeed for abused children, for incest victims; for victims of sexual abuse and ha rassment by gurus, spiritual teachers, priests, psychotherapists, Supreme Court Justice nominees; for battered wives, ex-political prisoners, holocaust survivors, Vietnam veterans, trauma survivors. No one really wants to hear about trauma and abuse. This isolation is usually the worst injury of all. As a "healing" community, I think our greatest commitment must be to face and know the extremity of human abuse; to do so requires facing our constant tendency toward denial, about others and ourselves. The dynamics of abuse permeate our relationships, our families, our politics; but let's start by looking at all the guru and therapist abuse in our midst. I'd like to see the psycho-spiritual community, and your magazine, take this subject on. Is it really healthy to "surrender" to a guru, spiritual teacher, therapist? Are these "chaste" spiritual communities really healthy? Maybe sexuality is the litmus test of a community's integrity Let people tell their stories. Let's listen, let's bear witness. Let's dare to get angry! It needn't cost us our hearts. Subj: To Howie, Part 1 Date: 95-08-15 02:58:49 EDT From: Kumuda Hi Howie, You recently posted the following statement: -------- "Kumuda, who posted her grateful letter, is said to be following Gurumayi's command that she give $100,000 to Gurumayi for the many years she worked day and night without sleep and for almost no pay in the ashram as the video editor. Is that true, Kumuda? You may think you are paying out of love and gratitude, but I think you are paying (if in fact you are, as others are) - I think you are really paying out of FEAR." --------- Now this statement gave me some insights into what is happening here, insights I would like to share and offer up to the yajna we have created on this board. You stated this information as though it were clearly fact. I think your question of "Isn't it true Kumuda" at the end was meant more to be punctuation to your statement than an actual question. Well, there is a seed of truth within what you wrote, perhaps a 5% seed of truth, taken quite out of context and mixed with some statements that are not true at all. I am not paying back anything to the ashram. In the six years since I left the ashram, noone has ever asked me for a dime. If I've felt moved to send an offering I would do so, if I didn't, I didn't. I've never been one to do anything I didn't feel moved to do inside, and I've never been one to hide from the truth or not speak my mind. Anyone who knows me can vouch for that! I did have a conversation with Gurumayi before leaving the ashram, in which I expressed some concerns and desires, and in a specific context -- which I don't feel like elaborating on here as it is personal and lengthy -- some of the words used in your post came up, but again, in a specific context which is quite different from how you make it sound. The discussion was based on something I said, and the teachings that came to me from that darshan gave me the motivation to move into the world with faith and strength after ten years in the ashram. I still treasure that darshan. What you wrote reminded me of a National Enquirer version of the story: "ROSEANNE HAS THREE HEADED KID WHO BURSTS OUT CRYING AS SOON AS HE SEES THAT ROSEANNE IS HIS NEW MOTHER!" Yes, Roseanne had a kid; no, he didn't have three heads, and yes he cried when he came out -- but his motivations have been taken out of context. This is how I feel about what you posted as fact about me. There is a kernal of truth in the statement, but it is so convoluted and misinterpreted as to be almost completely without basis at all. Now if you were a good reporter for the UPI instead of the National Enquirer, you could have checked your facts before posting them. After all, you know my screen name, and I am a very nice, open person who would have been happy to discuss the experience with you. But you didn't seem to be looking for the truth in this case, you just wanted a big headline: "DEVOTEE WORKS ALL DAY AND NIGHT WITHOUT SLEEP FOR TEN YEARS AND IS FORCED TO PAY $100,000!" Well, maybe I can't clarify the actual truth behind your other headlines, but this one is mine. I was there, and it's not like that. Subj: To Howie, part 2 Date: 95-08-15 02:58:55 EDT From: Kumuda And, by the way, I did work day and night. . . I loved seva with every particle of my being. I loved writing scripts and researching footage of Baba and Gurumayi. I loved editing and choosing music and trying different shots and dissolves and effects to try and express the beauty I was feeling in my heart and share it through my art, my seva. Even when the ashram had strict rules about people going to sleep at a reasonable hour, I would sneak down to do more seva. So don't try to give the impression that I was forced to do some kind of slave labor. It was a labor of love. There are many other secrets involved with your statements, secrets even you don't know about Siddha Yoga, secrets Gurumayi keeps quiet about, which I also have kept quiet about. I'm just going to allude to a few of these secrets to make a point that there is much more than meets the eye, or the big headlines, going on here. Secrets of how Gurumayi took care of my student loan so I could stay in the ashram, how she sent me to school and looked through catalogues to find the right film school for me, how she gave me a little envelope of dharma money when I left the ashram so I could have a good start in the world, and many, many others. . . secret gifts of material, spiritual and emotional blessings that have showered upon not just me, but many people who have touched Siddha Yoga throughout the years. So if we're going to have an open discussion, lets include all the secrets. As I said in my previous post, I do not have blinders on to all faults of Siddha Yoga, of this world, or of myself. But I also consciously chose to focus on the greatness first, placing the faults within the context of that greatness. Whoever has come to this board has some degree of commitment to their spiritual growth. That doesn't mean ignoring the facts, but it also doesn't mean presenting them out of context for the sake of anger or revenge. I think this "trashing of Siddha Yoga" has become a little cult in its own right, and Howie is like one of those mean old hall monitors who only wants to let HIS version of the truth into the hall, giving HIS ideas a front seat and making everyone else sit in the overflow room. (Hey, since we're on analogies!) There are truths and lessons to be gleamed from all that is happening here, truths and lessons on all levels from the mundane to the highest understandings of who and what we really are. I wish everyone who comes here the best, including Howie. And I pray that each one of us is able to attain the highest, purest goals -- even beyond those we think we have for ourselves -- expressing and experiencing whatever we must, and then allowing all the layers of fear, anger and worry to fall off of us like old clothes that can no longer hold our wings down. There is so much to discover in this world, so much life to live. Go where your heart takes you, and move on to new vistas if it is time. Bitterness doesn't take you anywhere good. There are much more beneficial goals to be had than revenge. And as I toss this expression into our fire, I say. . . "SWAHA!" Thank you God Subj: Re:To Dissent Date: 95-08-15 09:51:23 EDT From: Dissent670 To Tapasya4U, I appreciate your thoughtful reply to the post that was removed by TOS due to the vulgarity I used in the last paragraph. I will exercise restraint on that score in further postings. I said: <> You said: "No, I don't mean that. My pain is this: The teachings of Siddha Yoga have been extremely beneficial to me and my SO. Between the two of us, there's 25 years in Siddha Yoga. Neither I nor my SO have ever had any horrible traumatizing experiences, yet I do not dismiss the allegations against the lineage. I'm not naive enough to suppose that SY is the world's only "clean" path in that regard. "How do I go on with SY not knowing the truth about the lineage" is part of the pain; how do I keep my own integrity staying in a path where the teachings are true and the teacher may not be? (For me, the teachings are more important than any current teacher; the message is more important than any current messenger.)" An excellent point. Howie and others on this board have been exploring this question. What is important is having the perspective and awareness to challenge and test the party line, which remains: the physical Guru has been fully cooked in the yogic fire until there is nothing left but an unobstructed flow of the grace of God. Any impurities you see are your own, and anything you experience in relationship with the physical Guru is for your benefit alone. I said: <> You said: "No, Dissent, you are not causing me pain. My "pain" is trying to walk a tightrope here. I am curious: what are you doing on this board? I feel your anger. What is *your* message? What is the information you would have me discover? " I am doing what I need to do right now, which is stand up and speak up to a belief-system I swallowed whole when I was an ashramite for almost a decade which eventually resulted in a nervous breakdown. I do not pretend to be pure or holy, I am only needing to move some thoughts and feelings and experience the response. This is my education. I don't plan to do this forever. I have the same judgements, doubts, and fears that you and others express about what I am doing here. My message is: stand up at whatever level feels right. That level for me is posting anonymously but responsibly on an AOL board. Others in SY may see that as cowardly, but what are they doing to test their own fear of excommunication? You said: "The choices I see here are thise: Stay on the path wearing blinkers. Leave the path. Do something to run the risk of retaliation. Keep quiet." Those choices are completely up to us. Are we looking for a guru to show us which way to go? We already know what one guru will recommend. I said: <> You said: "I know you're not trying to be cruel, and I don't take what you say as cruel. I feel your outrage at betrayal and your frustration in being held back in doing something effective about it." Yes. I don't like seeing revered authorities say "black is white and white is black" and watch everyone nod at the wisdom. GM has no head at all for debate, so everyone who wants to be like her seems to have lobotomized themselves in response. I find this a very outrageous state of affairs. As DoraMir posted: "There's an implication that intense feeling and clear understanding are mutually exclusive; to the contrary, those who resist feeling intensely will have difficulty understanding the reality of abuse." This summarizes my quandary when I was a devotee. Subj: Re:Henry not Howie! Date: 95-08-15 12:44:03 EDT From: Jaifishman Hi Kumuda. I have to really check my motivation for posting this. Two times I've gotton it written out and it got accidently erased. Then I couldn't get the password right to get into aol, 2x's. One holdover from the years as a disciple of the Gurus is that I'm 'superstitutous'. But then again, I don't have to apologize 'cause I know a lot of you out there are too. It's part of having a connection to the larger picture of the universe and the play of life. It's part of the play of life being a living thing. Because I was delayed in what I wanted to say I going to change it. And start somewhere else more personal. A friend pointed out the similarity between the words, integrity and integrated. Thinking about it I realized in some ways my viewpoint about SYDA is not integrated in to all parts of my life. Specifically, there are plenty of people I meet physically, not on a bullitin board, who do not know my true feelings. I would like to give my real ID on this board and feel bad for not. I understand that a person may tend, consciously or unconsciously, to say some things different, when one does not have to stand behind the words. It can be very ugly because it can lead to abuses. Having an anon ID is really a privilige. I have tried not to abuse it. Subj: Well. . . actually both! Date: 95-08-15 12:55:30 EDT From: Kumuda LOL, well I guess it was both Henry and Howie I was referring to. Howie also referred to the "Enquirer-type headline" in a recent post: "I, in contrast, keep a file called "Things I Do Understand." I understand that pedophilia is wrong, for example. That throwing a used-up sevite out of the ashram and making her pay back rent and expenses AFTER THE FACT--under implied threat of losing the guru's blessing--is spiritual extortion. Indeed, it's the worst form of simony I've ever heard of." Used up! Why I oughtta. . . ;) Subj: Re:Henry not Howie! Date: 95-08-15 14:34:00 EDT From: Jaifishman Oh boy! This last message almost broke off too. I mailed it before I finished, to avoid the anxiety. Anyway, people have commented on the USENET that there is a coarsening of communication often associated with the use of the anon. ID. I have reflected on this myself and can say I agree. I'm am saddened by the fact that I feel it necessary not to give my real name. I'm afraid even to keep one pseudonym for more than a day. Ignorance may be bliss. By the same token, knowledge, in this case, is paranoia. I happen to know hacker/crackers can get in anywhere. I don't hide myself out of shame. I do it out of real fear. People may try to laugh and characterize this position as unstable. Belittle the fear by an, 'Of course how ridiculous.' 'We all know how sweet and divine and (someone said), 'pristine', is the energy of the ashram and GM. These anon. voices must be demonic, out to destroy us. They must be hateful, jealous, egotistical beings caught in the web of Maya.' Is it true SYDA uses some of the same laywers as the Church of Scientology. I want to find out. I recommend people look into the story of Barry Fishman. An amazing tale, better than *any* movie. More of what I tried to say before. Indian tabloids are out, as far as good sources of info. (Don't be insulted I need to post the perhaps obvious). However, someone posted an article from one of them and didn't bother to mention that the accuracy of the Indian tabloids is the same, if not worse, than those here. (And for those of you who think that the heat-wave was Satan or that 'McGiver' is a real person, I can't help you. Or rather, 'Get Help'.) On the other hand, New Yorker is a very good source of info. Their 'fact checkers' are reputed to be the best in the business and spend more time on it than any other publication. In regard to well-grounded fear. Lis Harris does not want to write any more about SYDA because of the intimidation and scare tactics and threats directed at her. The info. in that article was not, by any means, all that she had. Since she had been threatened by them *before* the article appeared and *before* anyone at SYDA had even seen the article; not only the fact checkers, but the lawyers were put to work there. The sources who were used, to make the New Yorker comfortable, had to be willing, if needed, to testify in court. I trusted my life for many years to the *Guru*. I'm not interested in doing that further. If I feel a need to write here what I know, feel and think, it is only because, IF I WAS STILL IN THERE I WOULD HOPE SOMEONE WOULD DO SO FOR ME. I know, as an anon. witness, I will never be particularly credible. I also know that everyone is not me. What I want in my life is not necessarily for others and vis versa. Many people are perfectly happy with the way things are there and everything that has happened. Good for them! I am glad they have found happiness in life which is so hard , for many , to find. I do not think the SYDA yoga people are suffering particularly or need to be 'rescued' in any way. But in my case I see it as God's grace that led me away from there. If I hadn't questioned, I would have never found out any of the things that led me to leave, and would still be giving year after year of my life. Getting older, and never seeing or participating in broader life, which now gives me so much joy. What led me to Siddha yoga, in the first place, was a strong desire for truth. I've always wanted to know the truth, whatever it may turn out to be. I *love* the truth. The truth is my highest god. I have always tried to be balanced and moderate in what I have said. I have not gratuitiously attacked anyone to my knowledge. Check out everything for yourself. Forget the emotional cocoon of denial and damage control. Look at the truth as much as you can emotionally stand. It's worth it. I love you Kumuda and I'm glad you are doing well. Subj: Re:A Siddha's Actions Date: 95-08-15 23:53:33 EDT From: Dissent670 I can't let Nublue's post get away unexamined. So much of such utterances do around SYDA. This may feel painful to you, Nublue, and others (unless you have disassociated yourself from pain, at which point nobody can help you). Examining scriptural brainwash is one of the things I want to do on this board. It is not being done much anywhere else such statements pass muster. <> This is straight out of Play of Consciousness and other SYDA publications. This is an idealization. I wanted to believe this about GM for many years. My question to you is: if the current guru were not a Siddha by this definition, how would you know? The fact that you choose to throw this post in so incongruously to the discussion in "play" on this board indicates that you would be the last to know, Nublue. Your bookish posts are a product of a sleeping mind, not an awakened one. <> Again, this sounds all very nice. But the same was true for Adolf Hitler. <> How does any of this help me or you? What you are saying behind this scriptural cover of yours is "you are too immature and disconnected to understand the mysteries behind Gurumayi's actions, ya dweeb". I hear you loud and clear, Nublue. Care to try being a human being before it's too late? You don't know ANYTHING about what you are talking about, or you would express yourself as you are, A HUMAN, not a scriptural robot who posts dissociated Shaivite love-bombs like a choking hunks of frankincense hurled into a group of people earnestly engaged in a vital discussion. Thank you very much for your expression of "love". Now how many among us find my anger unloving and Nublue's rarifications full of love? Subj: Re:The institution of the Guru Date: 95-08-16 00:00:44 EDT From: Dissent670 He's at it again. Nublue writes: <> OKAAAAY.... so what are you saying here, my cagey, frightened friend? That dissenters like myself, Howie, Henry, and others are blind to the perfection of the current head of the Siddha lineage? What do YOU say? Or are you pretending there is no "you" left.? If so, too bad - you've failed. Your denials are quite visible. It just occurred to me that you may be playing a joke here. I can't tell. Care to step out from behind the book counter, Nublue, and share some real feelings? It makes it easier for me to communicate without offending presumptiously due to lack of information. Subj: Is SYDA YOGA based in LOVE Date: 95-08-16 01:59:08 EDT From: Pwtoo21 If SYDA yoga is based in and on love, why is it that when you people leave syda yoga you loose your friends in it? I can't grasp why this is ! Are they based in love or not? Subj: Kumuda's error Date: 95-08-16 05:12:42 EDT From: Howie Sm Please note that Kumuda's message, "Well, actually both!", is a misreading of Howie's "Things we all understand" post in this way: When I, Howie, mentioned "spiritual extortion" and a "used-up sevite," I was thinking of a close friend of mine who was asked to leave AND pay thousands of dollars. The friend prefers to remain anonymous, at least as far as AOL is concerned. (I was not thinking of Kumuda.) (I have duplicated below, from Kumuda's message, the Howie quote Kumuda misread.) "I, in contrast, keep a file called "Things I Do Understand." I understand that pedophilia is wrong, for example. That throwing a used-up sevite out of the ashram and making her pay back rent and expenses AFTER THE FACT--under implied threat of losing the guru's blessing--is spiritual extortion. Indeed, it's the worst form of simony I've ever heard of." Subj: On experience talks Date: 95-08-16 07:07:32 EDT From: Howie Sm Aldous Huxley felt that the common goal of all religions was transcendental; he felt those who focused on religion as a mechanism for "petitionary prayer" were more interested in magical answers in day-to-day living than in transcendental spiritual freedom. Perhaps Huxley would therefore view with shock the presence of statements in "experience talks" about the Mahayoga, about Shaktipat yoga, that say something to the effect of: "I was unemployable and/or a drug addict and/or suicidal and/or unmarried and/or emotionally disturbed. Now, after more than a decade of pursuing Siddha Yoga, I have a job and am happier about life." "I didn't have the money for the Intensive at first but, after doing puja, my grandmother died and left me $500, so I can now take the Intensive!" He would probably see the "experience talker" as someone attached to an inefficient remedial therapeutic colony for the socially dysfunctional, a colony that relies on heavy doses of "magical thinking." He might never think he was hearing about a Mahayoga whose goal is transcendence--it would all sound more like a sales pitch for a quick-fix remedy. The thrice-repeated phrase, "Take the Intensive!", coming after the talk would perhaps confirm his impression. The nonexistence of announcements saying "this person has finished the path" in an ashram of thousands would further confirm his impression. He would probably be yet further dismayed if he learned that the colony was being run under false pretenses--as a "perfect being" scam. These "miracle cure" stories (which the programming department sees as good copy) would be fine--apart from the fantastically long time and the amount of brainwashing the therapy seems to require--if it were not for the fact that the "cure" depends on a megalomaniacal delusion that makes the believer think he/she is "different" from others. After brainwashing, believers think they are karmically-advanced souls who, by virtue of superior destiny, are prepared to take the last lap on the soul's marathon towards God-realization. In other words, they believe that they have found a short-cut to becoming advanced yogis. Their ability to hold down an ordinary job after a decade in Siddha Yoga is held up as proof of their attainment. This "chosen people" delusion strengthens the ego in a way that blocks the liberating experience of a humility-based spirituality (that Huxley and other yogis would endorse). People don't have to become utterly brainwashed to overcome serious problems and find happiness. This may be hard for some to see, perhaps because the world outside of SYDA has not adopted the exhibitionistic ritual of the experience talk. That shaktipat (whether from Baba or Gurumayi or Nityananda) does confer amazing benefits--such as getting rid of addictions overnight--should inspire people to take a spiritual view of kundalini yoga, instead of a "it gives me what I want" view, instead of an "allegations be damned, I want mine" view, instead of a "I now must depend on its thought-system" view. Be grateful for what SYDA has given you, but don't let that gratitude blind you to the responsibility of letting newcomers know what they are getting into. Don't give talks that make the high path of kundalini sound like an inefficient remedy for the socially dysfunctional which needs to be sales-pitched. Experience talkers, drop off the scaffolding of wishful fantasies about your guru and path, now that the house of your life is built. (Note: The above does not refer to any specific person or experience talk, but to a pattern in experience talks many recognize.) Subj: Re:Is SYDA YOGA based in LOVE Date: 95-08-16 11:28:32 EDT From: TheCatmen I do not think people are involved in Siddha Yoga because of love. It appears to me that people run to SY to escape and try to find a salve for their painful wounds. SY is a compulsion. I was for me. If love had anything to do with it, you'd find the generosity of heart the allows for two different view points to co-exist. Most people I used to be friends with in SY are intimidated and fearful to hear about my feelings. It stirs up too much for them that they have tryed to manage and numb with the "correct" teachings and repeating the mantra. Silencing the mind from thought using a mantra is not the way to tame the mind. It only cuts off all logic, reason and common sense. It's taken years for me to re-claim those birth given abilities (which were damaged but well functioning before my involvement in SY). My old friends see my health and are repulsed and attracted to it. But more repulsed by my truth telling than anything else. It wrecks their well constructed illusions that their world is ok now that they are "protected" by the Guru's grace. Protected from their own minds is more like it. The bottom line here is that Its impossible to have a close and intimate friendship when there are subjects that are absolutly verbotten. Secrets to be protected. If someone in SY is continuously talking about Gurumayi and I'm not allowed to speak about what I think about her, what kind of relationship can one have? Most of my old friends think I'm "negative" and "bad company," that I have something wrong with me that I can't take all the bullshit that SY doles out. What person with an ounce of self-esteem wants to be around those kinds of attitudes? Or that kind of abuse? Love indeed! Subj: Re:On experience talks Date: 95-08-16 11:52:53 EDT From: TheCatmen Howie, thanks for your brain, your compassion and your patience at taking on the challenge of explaining a contested point of view. Phew!! I'm so glad to see you, Henry, Dissent and other voices with a healthy point of view are out there. Yea!!! It's so important to talk about this stuff. Especially "experience talks." I remember giving those talks. By the time my talk was remodeled by the Programming tutor, I wasn't sure exactly whose talk it was. It only vaguely resembled mine. The funny thing (and sad) was that I believed that the "new" talk was now "better" and that now that it was in proper "Guru speak" it was an EXPERIENCE!!! How deluded I was. I think I was totally enamoured of standing up in front of people and getting some badly needed attention. Your Huxley view cracked me up. <> as I look back on my own talks they were just as pathetic as that. Mostly motivated by this intense need to see that my life had become better because the Guru had lifted me up out of the sorry heap I'd come to her in and made me a shining jewel. A jewel that could be showed off in public. (I think I was more like the prize cow being shown at a 4-H State Fair!) Nothing could be farther from the truth. I was a frigging MESS! And being with Gurumayi for 3 years in the Ashram hadn't made things better, only made things worse. I had the self esteem of a frog, and couldn't do much of anything for MYSELF after leaving the ashram. I was so conditioned to do seva (for others) that I compulsively tryed to do the same thing in the SY center at home. No wonder people think that they are nothing without the Guru. She conditions one to believe that they are NOTHING. And unless we are perfect we have this enormous fight going on in our heads that erupts when we tried to do anything outside of the SY context. Again, how pathetic!! Oh well, thank God (and I mean GOD) that I am out of that horrible, gross and forsaken waterless region. And thanks again Howie! Subj: Re:Syda exper.talks-anger Date: 95-08-16 17:11:34 EDT From: TheCatmen Dear DoraMir, Thanks for bringing up the A word. This has obviously touched a nerve. Good. The thing I noticed again and again in SY is that people work really hard to sublimate their anger and then BLAST it off towards GM's brother, dissenters, family, and anyone else they don't agree with. Pretty sad really. I agree with you. Anger is a way to experience your own power and is a potent tool on the healing and spiritual path, when used constructively. Feeling anger and using it in action is truely how a warrior is a warrior. Using anger to be cruel and mean to others is just a waste of energy. Thats why Gurumayi needs to suck up so much energy, she's busy belittling, humiliating, and cruely torturing her devotees. Now there's some unexpressed anger!!! The Hassan book is a good one. Another that really addresses things that are said and unsaid here is Jack Kornfield's book "A Path with Heart." Chapter 18 "the Emperor's New Clothes: Problems with Teachers" addresses the cult issue directly. More later! Subj: Context, Part One Date: 95-08-18 00:36:36 EDT From: GuruFire Hi everyone - Sadgurunath Maharaj Ki Jai! I've been in Siddha Yoga for over eight years, and I've done a lot of supervisory level seva in ashrams (but not management). I no longer do seva in ashrams on a regular basis, but I am not averse to it. I have simply decided that the only seva I can honestly do is "direct" seva, such as cleaning or cooking or gardening, rather than "representational" seva, where I would represent SYDA Foundation in any way. This is my ongoing resolution to this problem of SYDA organisational shenanigans, and I don't claim it is perfect or even final. It is just current and the best I can do right now. To me there is a difference between Siddha Yoga and SYDA Foundation. The first is the practices and philosophy, the second is the corporate organisation. While it is tempting (in a spiritually lazy way) to associate Gurumayi with the former and not the latter, it is simply not possible to do this without also challenging Gurumayi's Siddha Guru status. If She's a Siddha, then she's in charge of both, and there's no way around it. I understand and sympathize with people who have not experienced Gurumayi's blessings. It is truly not possible, in my opinion, to comprehend the Grace she extends without experiencing it oneself. Before I met her, I abhored the very concept of "guru". I still believe that most gurus are simply teachers of one level or another, and not true Siddhas. But, despite everything, I feel that Gurumayi is a legitimate Siddha Jagadguru - a genuinely Realized world Master. I cannot explain everything away. But I know personally that most of the allegations so freely passed around here and elsewhere are *greatly* exaggerated. Nevertheless, there exists a small number of incidents that are truly troubling. However, there is also the enormous and continual body of activity and blessings on every conceivable level of power that constitute Gurumayi's enormously positive interaction with thousands and thousands of people - myself included. To ignore this overwhelmingly beneficial evidence in trying to assess the negatives is simply hypocrisy. I don't mean to belittle anyones experience of actual criminal harm (legal or spiritual), but it just cannot be taken on its own - context IS important here if we are to try and understand meaning. In my experience, most managers in SYDA are amazingly arrogant and abusive, even for this day and age. For some of them to burn out and then claim victim status neither surprises me nor evokes my sympathy. In my experience, the reason management "works so hard" is because they drive everyone away through their manipulative abusiveness. But they never figure this out, because they seem to genuinely feel themselves superior to the average devotee. And I insist I am not generalizing - I feel this is the attitude and behavior of the *vast majority* of SYDA managers. That they then feel harried because their work piles up as a result of driving away the very people who have come to *volunteer* their effort is just too damn bad, in my opinion. "Yogaspeak" is new-age-based control talk. Neither Gurumayi, nor the Kashmir Shaivite philosophy upon which Baba placed Siddha Yoga, supports either the new age or yogaspeak - though you'd never know it by listening to the managers. Every single time Gurumayi came to the ashram she would repeatedly, both publicly and privately, bust the hell out of the yogaspeaking management for their hypocrisy and abusiveness - in other words, for their egos. And the moment She would leave, they'd go right back to it. (Continued) Subj: Context, Part Two Date: 95-08-18 00:39:27 EDT From: GuruFire I can only guess why Gurumayi uses such people for management. One idea I feel most comfortable with is simply that the Guru-disciple relationship is not democratic. The Guru exists to destroy the disciple's addiction to their delusions about who they really are - which, according to Kashmir Shaivsm, is nothing less than God. Throughout history, Gurus have been very consistent in disrupting social expectations in order to force a disciple to re-evaluate their self-identity. The repetition of this process, in whatever form, is the essence of sadhana - the spiritual path. The difficulty the disciple has in re-evaluating themselves is tapasya - the fire of spiritual transformation. And the particular mental addictions that are being uprooted are nothing less than karma itself. So my best guess about the management is that it is precisely *because* they cause nothing but trouble that Gurumayi uses them to run the organization. They force everyone to constantly go within themselves to find their *own* direction, instead of becoming addicted to external organizational direction. So in this, management does a great job! I mention all of this because I believe it is very easy to loose track of *context* in discussing the Guru. The very idea that someone would accept some other being as their Guru is still pretty much repulsive in our society to most people, because they believe it is an abdication of personal integrity. And, unfortunately, in many cases it is just that - and the "guru" is false as well. Unfortunately, a real Guru doesn't make it any easier. Their validation is intensely personal, and NOT rational. Every possible claim about a Guru can also be *externally* applied to a tyrant, and every possible claim about a devotee/disciple can be *externally* applied to a codependent/slave. But genius is not madness, no matter how similiar they appear to be. And unfortunately, this whole subject is very much the opposite of democracy. Yet so is school, but by *voluntarily* subjecting oneself to the discipline of school (or at least learning), one can become a better citizen - and a freer person. But it is also true that by becoming codependent to a tyrant, one can undermine one's personal integrity. It all depends on the legitimacy of individual effort, and not on external appearances. So what are we trying to resolve here? The existence of criminal activities? The existence of true Gurus in general - or Gurumayi's legitimacy as one in particular? The validity of Kashmir Shaivism or the Guru-disciple relationship? Or are we really proposing the idea that the spiritual path has to be democratic to be legitimate? How about money - that if the SYDA bookstores were cheaper, Gurumayi would be more authentic? Maybe it's the proposition that a smiling face is a spiritual face, and anger is a sign of the ego alone? As they say in battle: "pick your target". Subj: Context, Part Three Date: 95-08-18 00:40:05 EDT From: GuruFire To set the record straight, Gurumayi continually, both publicly and privately, exhorts people to think for themselves, to accept the legitimacy of ALL of their feelings and thoughts, to stand up against abuse of ALL kinds, and to study the scriptures and *balance* the mind (jnani) with the heart (bhakti). Gurumayi's mastery of the scriptures is profound - something Baba saw to during her years of discipline under Him. But just because She *tells* you to stand up for yourself, doesn't mean She's not going to put you into a situation to test you, to force you to *actually* stand up for yourself. After all, this is the way we *actually* learn. To criticise Her for spiritual difficulties *in general* is to simply be ignorant of the process of spiritual growth itself. And to criticize Her for creating tests is to be ignorant of the purpose of a Guru. I have found, over the years, that it pays to be extremely precise in thinking or talking about the Guru, because She is so precise in what She does. "Bad" thinking is simply sloppy thinking, and it breeds nothing but confusion. Dharmic thinking is fearless, and as precise as we know how to be. So let's make this a dharmic discussion - truthful and fearless. And if the truth is that you're angry, then speak about what you're *actually* angry about, and not some vague thing you heard somewhere. Otherwise all we're going to do here is waste time and energy, and if there really are some lessons to be learned, we're going to miss them. Subj: A Clarification Date: 95-08-18 22:01:01 EDT From: GuruFire There is something I would like to clarify. I am not taking the position that the negative experiences people have had in SY never happened - I am NOT refuting the validity of ANYONES personal experience, whether or not I believe in it, understand it, or even comprehend it. I don't claim to have all the answers (and there are those, I'm sure, who don't feel I have *any* ). All I am saying is that, in my experience, being around Gurumayi in any way is often like being inside a furnace, where the ego itself is on fire. Countless times I have become enormously upset over something during a program or intensive, only to burn through it to a state of serenity and discover that the issue was actually a place where I was emotionally wounded, and now I had been healed. Sometimes this healing process happened immediately, sometimes it took days, or weeks, or months or years. And a *lot* of it is still unfinished, and I'm sure I would be horrified to see what I haven't even started to grapple with yet. All I'm saying is that, from either the viewpoint of someone external to the process, OR the viewpoint of someone burning *inside* the process, things can look as evil and black as words can describe. Yet the same person reaches a new level of peace once the issue is finished (on whatever level the Shakti was dealing with it - sometimes the same issue is worked on over and over again, on steadily deeper levels). This process is a *fact*, as anyone who has gotten connected with Gurumayi knows. If indeed, besides this process and its effects, criminal behavior is *also* going on, then it must be *clearly* differentiated from the legitimate spiritual purification process. That differentiation is not so easy to do. But it cannot be done at all unless the existence of the two separate scenarios are admitted and addressed. As painful as I am sure it is to hear this for some people, I just see most of the complaints about Gurumayi falling into the burning camp, and not the criminal camp. Perhaps the only subject that pins me to the wall in the criminal camp is the sexual abuse - everything else seems like it could easily be attributed to tapasya. This doesn't mean I don't have empathy for the burning - I do! But burning is not criminal! On the other hand, even if the criminal is somehow legitimate tapasya, I guess the way I feel is that I have to honor the dharma of my culture and its laws, under which children must be protected from predation of *any* kind. There doesn't really seem to be any way out on that one... nor, in fact, do I think there should be. But if you're a manager asked to do something you don't think is right - DON'T DO IT. Did you ever think that saying NO was the test, and you flunked it? That sounds like a brutal and heartless thing to say, but I mean it with tremendous respect, because *I know* how terribly Gurumayi can pin you between a rock an a hard place. Nevertheless - it is a *legitimate* possibility that these are *spiritual tests*. And if it means you would lose your association with SYDA, then at least you would "lose" it by Honoring Yourself - and thus follow your Dharma, stay connected with the Shakti, and *please* the True Guru. TO:Gurufire: From: E2233 You make many interesting points. As one of the people you are describing, according to your understanding - i.e. one of those that burned out and claim victim status -- I would like to address and refute some of the points you make. I would like to do this in a "dharmic" spirit, to "address what I'm actually angry about," and clarify that what I'm angry about is NOT "some vague thing I heard somewhere." I HEREBY STATE THAT EVERY THING IN THIS SERIES OF POSTS IS FACTUALLY TRUE FROM MY OWN FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE. I have learned, though, that stating facts is utterly ineffective in convincing stubborn minded loyal devotees that they are true or that they are important enough to pay attention to. There have been ample facts stated in these posts, and in the 1981 Open Letter and the 1995 Open Letter. The newspaper articles listed as worth reading also state ample facts. Anyone who doesn't want to believe them just doesn't believe them, in spite of the fact that they are facts. What is that about? Since I knew of these facts and didn't want to believe them for over 10 years, I know that for me, not believing was about being utterly dependent on Gurumayi and needing to deny anything that might penetrate my delusion of her perfection. It was also about being controlled by fear, fear of her disapproval, of losing her love, of being shunned by the community I loved, of being crushed by disillusion. All of that ended up happening, and I'm living a better life than I ever lived before. The pain of facing all that I feared was terrific, but I'm healing, and I am loving living a life based on telling the truth rather than on lying to myself and others to protect Gurumayi. Gurumayi is a master of getting people to keep secrets. She is a master of hiding her own decisions, choices and actions, behind others - these managers you find so repulsive, for example - so that she can maintain whatever image suits her at any given moment. She learned this from Baba. So her managers, or close disciples, learn to execute her commands, LIKE FIRING ALL THE GAY HATHA YOGA TEACHERS WITHOUT TELLING THEM WHY, and then completely shield Gurumayi from any accountability. You say these managers are "arrogant and abusive." They are following Gurumayi's orders, shielding her, and then engaging in one of Gurumayi's favorite rituals, which is publicly shaming and humiliating someone, pretending she is angry with them for doing EXACTLY WHAT SHE TOLD THEM TO DO. This goes on day in and day out and has for years, starting with Baba. Managers learn their techniques of "manipulative abusiveness" directly from Gurumayi, and they learn how to lie and accept public humiliation in order to protect and defend Gurumayi. You think these facts are not facts and they come from burned out cry-babies who never "received Gurumayi's blessings." I recieved innumerable gifts, perks, loving words in loving letters and loving darshans, and used to give experience talks to standing ovations about the incredible blessings she had showered on my life. Having come to be personally familiar with the extent of Gurumayi's sadistic cruelty as a result of being in very close daily contact with her over an extended period of many months, I decided that it only serves Gurumayi when everyone talks about their blessings, but it does not serve me, nor, I think, the larger devotee community, to be silent and in terror of revealing this other side of her personality. You say "genius is not madness." Anybody know who Sol Wachtler is? He was the top ranking judge in New York, wealthy, highly respected, someone who would have been elected governor. He'd been one of the most respected judges in the system for more than 20 years. It was discovered that he had another side to his personality when he was arrested for sending condoms to his ex-lover's teenage daughter, and calling and writing death threats to them under assumed identities. He had a secret life. If you read Stan Trout's heartbreaking letter about Baba, you will see that this was the same story. Baba was this wonderful brilliant powerful genius who was totally split, and who was secretly a pedophile who seduced and molested scores and scores of young girls, from the age of 10 into their early 20s. He also arranged for his devotees to threaten the whistle blowers with having acid poured on their faces, with castration; and he told vicious lies about them. I'm angry about that, even though it happened so long ago, because essentially the same exact crap has been going on since he died, while SYDA has been in the hands of Gurumayi and George Afif. The stories about harassment of Nityananda are not about managers doing things Gurumayi didn't approve of. Gurumayi approved of it all and spent lots of time and money directing those activities with George Afif. They are factually presented in Lis Harris' NEW Yorker article, which devotees were told not to bother reading, of course. Gurumayi also knew well that Afif continued to molest young girls, as young as 13, in the ashram, and she protected him and supported him and defended him, even when he got caught with a 16 year old in Oakland, which led to his pleading no contest to statutory rape. He never ceased his seduction all the years in the ashram. Gurumayi had full knowledge of it, and she did nothing because she was in many respects in Afif's power. She owed him her rise to Guruhood and the downfall of her brother. These are facts. Gurumayi does not tell people to stand up against abuse. I personally know that most often, when a devotee tells her that someone in their family was abusive, Gurumayi will tell that person to forget about it, reconcile, forgive, don't say anything. Since Gurumayi was so brutally abused by Baba for her whole life, and since she continues to verbally batter and break people down as a matter of course, usually gathering loyal staff members to watch so they can later claim it was for the victim's own good, and since she knew of and allowed so much sexual abuse in her own ashram -- well, I have to disagree with you that Gurumayi tells people to stand up against abuse. I know for a fact she usually does just the opposite, because abuse is what she understands human relationship to be about. It's what she grew up on. That's a fact. Nothing I've said here is stuff I've heard, it's what I personally experienced. What has fascinated me ever since I started to speak out is how the vast majority of people in SYDA can look a fact straight in the face and say it doesn't exist. The 1995 open letter lists facts, all of which I know to be true - the bugged rooms and cameras and mikes all over, the discrimination agains gays and lesbians, the sexual abuse, the harassment of Nityananda, the cruelty, the manipulation, the lies. This is what I am angry about. If you don't believe it, don't believe it. Gradually, enough people will speak and enough people will dare to tell the truth, and gradually people will wake up to the fact that they are enjoying their experiences of divine grace while they support ongoing abuse, cruelty, and deception. There are plenty of hard facts in this correspondence and all the preceding ones since the 5 part Open letter, and in the Letter it self. Look at them again. They are true. Hari Om Tat Sat. Satyam, satyam, varanane. Long live the truth! Subj: Scientific materialism?????????? Date: 95-08-19 07:24:43 EDT From: DoraMir Sientific materialism? HELLO??? No, I'm not from the Anti-Hinduism World Mission Society. I like Hinduism. I just don't like Bulls--t which gets passed off as Hinduism, or any other religion, spiritual path, etc. I like dharma, and I think the following passage is very "dharmic." It's by a writer named Harry Guntrip: "The adult develops the mature capacity both to be alone without feeling isolated, and to commit and involve himself in true self-devotion, or even apparent self-abnegation, for adequate reasons, without losing his proper individuality. This perhaps is the peak of maturity (unfortunately easily neurotically counterfeited), to be able to give oneself to the utmost in love, for convincing reasons, without loss of ego-integrity." It's been my experience and my observation that the idolization of the Guru required in Siddha Yoga is infantilizing, and constitutes the loss of integrity and individuality described above. I have come to the personal conclusion that projecting all this adoration to Gurumayi depletes me of my own integrity and maturity, keeps me dependent, and makes it too convenient to avoid any kind of real intimacy or self-knowledge, because the only knowledge really worth contemplating becomes one's adoration of the guru. Another point: in refuting the negative experiences people have posted here, loyal devotees argue everything on the basis that: 1) Gurumayi is a Siddha. 2) Therefore, she might do something that is APPARENTLY wrong, but because she's a Siddha, and perfect by definition, nothing she does could ever ACTUALLY be wrong. 3) Therefore, the one who points out the wrong-doing, is wrong. What if she isn't a Siddha? What if the Shaktipat she's giving is not the real thing? What if she doesn't really have a clue as to how to control it or guide it? Why are people terrified to even think such things???? THE BOGEYMAN WILL GET YOU IF YOU DON'T WATCH OUT!!! That's not religion and that's not spirituality, not Hinduism, not dharma. That's manipulation and exploitation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subj: SYDA & Mind Control Technology I Date: 95-08-22 17:12:16 EDT From: TGPARKER Part One of a 3 part Note: SYDA & Mind Control Technology? I ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ever since I barely escaped getting "hooked" by the SYDA GURU GOONS, I still have felt the need to ask alot of questions from Ex-SYDA members to get a clearer picture of what went on with all these people, as well as what it was that was done to me. I am also intersted in hearing about any "recovery actions" that have been taken since leaving SYDA. If anything I'd like to be able to pass some E.S. & H. to other Cult-Abuse victims when and if they ask for it. I agree that the GURU GANG relies very heavily on emotional & pyschological manipulation, personality-cult dynamics, and the usual "Jail-House Cons", "Street Scams", "carnival tricks" and street-corner "three-card-monte" routines, like "bait & switch" etc.. with acomplete cast of SHILLS, ACCOMPLICES, FRONTS, & JUDAS-GOATS"! BUT I'm still more inclined to look more deeply into "externally induced" hypnotics, sub-liminal technologies, and other external agents, as the source of the Guru Gang's initial power. I think that I've been stimulant-free long enough (15 Years) to really tell when something has been "administered" to me. My meditation experience is such that I can also make the distinctions between the types of spiritual experiences like "UNION" or "JOINING"and PHYSICAL EGO-BASED "SENSATIONS" like "joy", "euphoria", & "bliss" that I've also experienced here-to- fore. Fortunately my own meditation experience has allowed me to be able to tell the difference between my own inner emotional and spiritual states, and those coming from outside. What ever happened to me at SYDA, I distinctly and clearly experienced as coming from the outside! I swear I could tell the difference! If I were put on the witness stand today, I would say on oath that I had been "physically" affected in some by some kind of external undetermined technological agent, and NOT A SPIRITUAL STATE INDUCED BY THE GRACE OF GOD DESCENDING OR BEING AWAKENED IN ME THROUGH A GHURU. ----------------------------------------------------------------- End of Part One of the 3 part Note: Read "SYDA & Mind Control Technology? II" Subj: SYDA & MIND CONTROL TECH. II Date: 95-08-22 17:35:01 EDT From: TGPARKER ----------------------------------------------------------------- SYDA & Mind Control Technology II Second Part of a 3 Part Note ----------------------------------------------------------------- The spiritual Mastery, & Mystical Powers necessary to affect others in the manner we're discussing could ONLY be attributed to a true AVATAR, a real Adept & Master! Even based on the shallow biographies of all members of the Guru Gang, provided by Liz Harris' article. None of them including Muktananda, underwent the rigorous life-long spiritual commitments, deprivations, sacrifices, and seclusions practiced by the true Masters, and genuine Spiritual Adepts. They may have picked-up some Fakhir's rope climbing and Bombay Marketplace Illusionist's tricks, board-walk carnie routines, circus tent acts, some basic jail-house cons, street scams, and even some basic meditation techniques which they could have picked-up from almost any temple in India. It is very clear that they never really made the rigorous spiritual and moral progress necessary to attain the powers they claim they had. If we accept that these are imperfect, evil, even, criminal people, then how could the "GRACE OF GOD" DESCEND TO YOU THROUGH SUCH IMPERFECT CHANNELS? Either the grace of god is attainable & available anywhere & everywhere, and you really don't need anyone to give it to you. Especially priests and Ghurus! (Gee didn't a Hebrew Adept and Master called Jasua Ben Josef say that almost 2000 years ago getting himself executed in a really painful way?) OR You were experiencing something else and were TOLD it was "God's grace decending through the Guru". GEE WIZ! THEY LIED! If you had never experienced electricity, and if I touched you with a cattle prod that gave you a distinct electrical shock, and then told you it was: "The Grace of God Decending being awakened in you through me your Wise and Spiritual Ghuru Tony Bannannanda the 15th re-incarnation of the Llama of Raj Dapurghj!" Under the right circumstances you would believe me! With the right Special effects, sound effects, lighting, chants, Peer Pressure, Pyschological manipulation, etc....you would believe and do anything else I told you too! I suspect that's always what's been going on at SYDA from day one! THE SIMPLE EVIDENCE OF THEIR DAILY ACTIONS AND "PRIVATE" BEHAVIOUR BELIES THERE IS NO WAY THAT ANY ONE OF THE GURU GANG EVEN CAME CLOSE TO ANYTHING APPROACHING ENLIGHTNMENT, TO INFER THAT ANY OF THEM, EVEN MUKTANANDA, EVEN CAME CLOSE TO ANY KIND OF SPIRITUAL MASTERY IS LAUGHABLE! THEY NEVER HAD NOR ARE EVER LIKELY TO HAVE THE SPIRITUAL POWERS NECESSARY TO INDUCE THESE EFFECTS WIHOUT THE AID OF TECHNOLOGY! Spiritual titles are bought and sold in the Far East in almost the same way Mail order Doctorates of Divinity can be obtained here. Though there are a multitude of temples, monastaries, wandering "MASTERS", and "TEACHERS", throughout India, who is to say whether any of these "MASTERS'" credentials are real or worthy! By and large there is no way of knowing whether a Ghuru ever even studied where and when he/she said he/she did. There is also no way of ascertaining what a particular Ghuru "mastered" or what kind or level of "en-lightenment" was actually attained. Most temples, monastaries, masters, or ghurus, don't hand out diplomas, or keep transcripts! What if a master, priest, monk, or devotee, had even been banished and expelled, from their temple, monastery, or village for sexual perversions, i.e. molesting children, etc.? Given the the constant state of civilian and adminstrative chaos and disorder of INDIA There would be NO RECORD OR WAY OF CHECKING A GURUS CREDENTAILS ANYWAY! ----------------------------------------------------------------- SYDA & Mind Control Technology II Second Part of a 3 Part Note ---------------------------------- Subj: SYDA & Mind Control Tech. III Date: 95-08-22 17:43:21 EDT From: TGPARKER ----------------------------------------------------------------- SYDA & Mind Control Technology III The Third part of a Four Part Note. ----------------------------------------------------------------- My limited understanding of the general traditions of the True and Great Spiritual Masters and Avatars, is that: a.) They run very few and far between i.e. they don't re- incarnate that frequently! Like maybe once every 1600 to 2000 years! They don't keep popping up in the same country all the time either. They definitely do not run in families! b.) They shun fame, noteriety, fortune, and any secular power, because they know that that stuff corrupts & dimishes their spiritual powers. c.) They are also very pickey about choosing their initiates, who they teach and what they teach to their students. They are fully aware of the consequences of just a little of their knowledge falling into the wrong hands. Very often the Teacher seeks out the WORTHY Student! Since MONEY, POWER, AND PRESTIGE, is NOT a factor in the tradtional Guru-Student relationship, UNWORTHY Students, are quickly dismissed! PERIOD! d.) Most of the time they keep themselves locked up safe and sound inside their monastaries and temples, so as not to be corrupted or have their spiritual powers diminished by the temptations of the outside world. e.) The duration of the "training program" is life-long, say a minimum of 12-25 years! If they do emerge at all into the public secular arena they usually tend to do so rather late in life usually only for a particular event or a purpose and then to quickly return back to the safety of their temple or monastery. The "Child-Prodigy" stuff is a dead give-away. f.) They tend to avoid the fame and noteriety caused by the display of miracles, as they consider that it diminishes their spiritual powers, and that the publicity and noteriety could tend to corrupt them. g.) They avoid the use of High-Tech aids like T.V., video, radio, etc, again because they consider that it diminishes and corrupts their powers. h.) They practice complete celibacy. They have no problem with celibacy & there is none of this crap about the TANTRA. Sexual temptations are never a problem. Any kind of sexual problem should be a dead give-away. Period. i.) The embracing of sexual celibacy and renunciation of worldly goods, and family ties would pre-clude any nepotism, and family involvement. Any "family" involvement or nepotism would also be a dead give-away. (In terms of its rapacious, and un-ethical, financial & business management style, and the notorious power struggles over where the real money is kept and who holds the secret Swiss Bank Account numbers makes SYDA seem more like a trashey, tacky Bombay Upwardly mobile Nouveau-Riche Indian "Family Import/Export Business" than a religious order! IS SYDA BOLLYWOOD'S ANSWER TO "DYNASTY!" ) SO LET'S FACE IT - THERE NEVER COULD HAVE BEEN NOR IS THERE EVER LIKELY TO BE ANY ADEPTS, MASTERS, AVATARS, OR DEITIES, AT SYDA! ----------------------------------------------------------------- End of "SYDA & Mind Control Technology III" Read "SYDA & Mind Control Technology IV" ----------------------------------------------------------------- Subj: SYDA & Mind Control Tech. IV Date: 95-08-22 17:50:39 EDT From: TGPARKER ----------------------------------------------------------------- SYDA & Mind Control Technology IV The Fourth part of a Five Part Note. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Let's Face facts! We're dealing with Carnie shills, and Carnie shills use techology, slight-of-hand, psychological manupulation, and last but not least ... TELLING THE BIG LIE! THE SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF! Their heavy reliance on high-technology is apparent throughout the organization, The fact that they're bugging, and submitting everyone in the Ashram to electronic surveilliance & scrutiny, is almost evidentiary that they already have the means and the will to keep everyone under electronic control! The Muktananda - Erhardt EST connection is a really interesting & possibly critical clue. Erhardt used the same Bio-Feedback Brain Wave Response/Stimulation Technology that the Church of Scientology people use and it's no secret that Church of Scientology defintely uses Brain Wave/Bio-Rythmn Technology to manipulate and control their members. Once you know how to build and use equipment that reads brain wave patterns...you can also build the equipment that can transmit signals to stimulate, control, and affect different wave patterns. This stuff was news in the 60's & even considered "classified" for use solely by "Cold War" CIA OPeratives for interogating, "breaking", and then "turning", foreign agents. By the mid-to-late seventies however you could by bio-feedback equipment from Edmund Scientific. With some minor hacking & tweaking and some experimentation, I am certain this equipment could be put to more potent uses. I remember meeting a Cult-Pyschologist around 1974 who had a whole a array of Bio-feedback equipment that he claimed he used in diagnosing and "re-programming" his patients.... using a combination of his equipment and post hypnotic techniques. Luckily my bull-shit detector started flashing red lights and ringing alarm bells. I never heard from him again, except reading about his being cited for having sex with his women patients while they were under the effect of the equipment and hypnosis. Plus ca change...Nothing ever changes! So it's pretty possible that this equipment was available, and well known to be effective as a mind control technique by the New-Age Pop-Psychology, Pop-Spirituality crowd from the early 70's on. If Muktananda "borrowed", or "bought", or "franchised" the concept of the EST "3 day intensive", and re-packaged it as "Kundalini Yoga", its pretty likely he bought the hardware and EST technology as well. The best magician's tricks are usually the simplest, almost obvious, and even taken for granted. So whatever they're doing it's done in the presense of everyone and it's something that occurs at all the SYDA rituals, and almost taken for granted. All the various books on mind control and cults all warn of the use of Video and Audio Tapes purportedly for use as background music, & as the means of delivering "canned" messages from the Guru. These are also the "classic" means by which "white noise" & subliminal hypnotic suggestions can be transmitted! Now for the second part of the hypothesis: A discussion of us the "marks" in this Mystical Three Card Monte Scam. Every cop from Brooklyn to Bombay will tell you that the "Mark" in every scam is the main Accomplice. Without "hooking" a "Mark" with his/her own greeds, avarice, lusts, prides, angers, jealousies, a scam can never work! Every scam is based on presenting the "Mark" with one variation or another of the irrestible proposition of: SOMETHING FOR NOTHING! SYDA's-"SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF"-"BIG LIE"-"SCAM"-"HOOK" is SHAKTIPAT / KUNDALINI IN A WEEKEND! JUST ADD MONEY SAINTHOOD without sacrifice! ----------------------------------------------------- Subj: SYDA & Mind Control Tech. V Date: 95-08-22 17:52:04 EDT From: TGPARKER ----------------------------------------------------------------- SYDA & Mind Control Technology V The Fifth part of a Five Part Note. ----------------------------------------------------------------- I am not what you could call a profound, deep, or even long-time scholar of Hindu Mysticism, but all the texts that I've read, WARN IN BIG CAPITAL LETTERS that in order to progress and develope spiritually to the point of awakening Shaktipat, Kundalini, Opening up SHAKRAS, etc. requires TOTAL commitment, to a totally renunciate life, and 12-25 YEARS AT LEAST of seclusion, & physical, emotional, moral, and spiritual, preparation, under the watchful eye of an accomplished master who has followed, completed, the path beforehand. Most students fall by the wayside, for one reason or another, as the watchful Master or Guru evaluates, each of his/her students most carefully, only allowing those students to pass on to the next "level" that are physically, emotionally, psychologially, morally, and spiritually worthy and ready. According to Hindu tradition most "householders" i.e. normal mortals like you and I are extremely lucky indeed, if they can even progress through the "liberation" or "opening" of only one or two "Shakras" in a lifetime. Guru's are cautious ensure that a student only moves forward when and if he/she is ready and able. Awakening Kundalini or Shaktipat in a student who isn't physically, emotionally, psychologially, morally, and spiritually worthy and completely prepared results in MADNESS AND/OR DEATH! Very often both! Most students are simply sent home with the suggestion that a Spiritual life is not for them, and that maybe they should try and get a job in an Indian Curry Restaurant in Bombay! THE "SCAM" IS THE TOTALLY ABSURD PROPOSITION THAT: ANY Western student with enough money to spend from a culture and society so completely Alien to the Hindu mystical and spiritual tradition as ours can achieve in one or more weekends in the Catskills, MORE spiritual growth & attainment that FEW Hindus actually attain after a lifetime of devotion, seclusion, renunciation, deprivation, celibacy, service, & commitment etc. IN THEIR OWN CULTURE, AT BONA FIDE ASHRAMS, TEMPLES, MONASTERIES, ETC., under THE STRICTEST GUIDANCE & DISCIPLINE of bon-fide & truely accomplished & WORTHY MASTERS. THE "HOOK": IS OUR OWN IGNORANCE, PRESUMPTION, ARROGANCE, FALSE PRIDE, AND GREED! Once the "Mark" is hooked on the basic presumption of the Scam, all that's needed now is a little extra technology from our friends at EST or Church of Scientology and the illusion is complete! Admittedly, I'm extrapolating wildly, & this is all total speculation, hunch, and my very, very, limited, and totally un- imformed personal experience of what happened to me at SYDA. This would still seem much more in keeping with the coldly cynical, criminal personality profile of the GURU GANG and the actual facts If and when criminal charges start to land on the GURU GANG, I really think it would be a good idea for the FBI or whoever ought to closely examine the SYDA Audio and Video Tapes and the AV hardware used for any evidence of intended use as "mind-control", "brain-washing" techniques. Tony P.. ----------------------------------------------------------------- End of "SYDA & Mind Control Technology IV" The Fifth part of a Five Part Note. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Subj: Are you a spiritual John? 1of3 Date: 95-08-30 17:15:33 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 3 Dear AOL readers, Many SYDA people aren't following a guru, or a traditional sadhana, or anything remotely resembling these things. In the worst New Age tradition, they are making religion up as they go along according to whim. For example, someone recently wrote online: "Opinions about things that happened do not reside on the same page as experiences of the Self. Whether Baba was perfect, Gurumayi was perfect, or any human being is perfect is irrelevant to sadhana." This subjectivism is dead wrong according to Siddha Yoga. Baba used to go on at length about how the disciple had a duty to test and evaluate the qualifications of a guru. In Baba's own words, "Such a being (a false guru) can never be a giver of liberation, for he is utterly false." Baba cites the Kamaksha Tantra in his in-depth description of the characteristics of a false guru, which he describes as someone "who has not reached the state of Guruhood." Baba wrote in several places that noticing if your guru is engaged in wrongdoings is HIGHLY RELEVANT TO SIDDHA YOGA SADHANA. My guess is that Baba would agree that a disciple should not live a lie. That a disciple should not be a brainwashed ostrich. And any decent person would agree that oldtimers who have seen abuses should speak out to newcomers, since nowadays a knowledge of the SYDA lies is hard and dangerous to acquire, since there are a trillion zombie denialists and a thousand puppet lawyers ready to crush you if you openly talk about the SYDA colossus. The bottom line of Siddha Yoga is: it is a guru yoga, a yoga based on a siddha (perfect) guru. That is why it is called SIDDHA yoga. This idea is printed on every Siddha Yoga publication, including the smallest circular. Yet few wish to talk about this, perhaps because it clashes with the embarrassing reality. Most try to make up their own ad hoc philosophies. SEE PART 2 Subj: Are you a spiritual John? 2of3 Date: 95-08-30 17:17:13 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 3 Dear AOL readers, One of the few who has acknowledged online the basic idea of Siddha Yoga--that Siddha Yoga requires a Siddha just as potato soup requires a potato--is Kaiwahine. Even though I disagree with her, I feel we have a basis for productive discussion, since we both respect the central tenet of Siddha Yoga. She (and a handful of others) is clearheaded enough to recognize that any Siddha yoga should have a qualified guru. There is no basis for discussion with the hypocritical others who say one thing but do and think another. Most of these other so-called devotees treat Gurumayi and SYDA like a prostitute, taking liberties at will--whatever liberties of interpretation they want--depending on what kind of gratification they "want." One devotee, will cry and pray "grant me this boon, divine Gurumayi," when they "need" her for something; this same devotee will then say condescendingly to victimized exs "you are responsible for your disillusionment: you should have just focused on the practices like I do." What hypocrisy. Another devotee will say "I trust my experiences" when that is the furthest thing from the truth; these kind of devotees will behave like utter drug addicts, chasing not their inner experiences BUT THE EXTERNAL GURU for expensive "shakti fixes." These shakti addicts will offer devotions to Gurumayi IN EXCHANGE FOR having their urges for "bliss" or, if you prefer, "God's recognition" gratified. In this whoring of yoga, their is often an exchange of money and the processing of a lot of bodies. No respect of first principles: of the principle of the Siddha guru. After their moment of gratification, these kind of devotees strenuously defend their "right" to behave like spiritual Johns by pointing to their experiences. That's neither trust nor devotion. The "trust my experiences" devotee has no trust of experiences or of anything--they just have an itch they have to scratch, over which they shamelessly exercise no control. They violate the integrity of their minds, they use Gurumayi like a prostitute, they rape the tradition of Siddha Yoga. Their mantra is: "allegations be damned, I'm getting mine." SEE PART 3 Subj: Are you a spiritual John? 3of3 Date: 95-08-30 17:19:29 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 3 OF 3 Dear AOL readers, The sad truth is that most SYDAites don't even have the discipline to meditate and do a Guru Gita daily, even though this is an incredibly easy sadhana! This in itself is a disgrace to yoga. But that they don't even care to exert any mental effort to determine if their guru is a criminal makes them look not only lazy, but embarrassingly fanatical--a paradoxical kind of fanaticism, given their lack of disciplined engagement. The few who understand the basics of Siddha Yoga, like E2233 and Kaiwahine, can answer the following question with a straight answer. The only straight answers are yes, no, or I'm not sure. "DO YOU BELIEVE GURUMAYI IS A SIDDHA?" Someone who respects the central tenet of guru-yoga, someone who respects Gurumayi as a human being, someone who is self-aware enough to know one's own feelings can answer this question easily and straightforwardly. They will say "yes," "no," or "I'm not sure" without rambling on like Shankara-wannabes. The rest who can't give a straight answer are disgraceful devotees with busy, rationalizing minds. What do you think Gurumayi thinks when she sees that almost none has the integrity to address the question, "Do you believe Gurumayi is a Siddha," directly? It has been asked in this folder in a variety of ways, but few seem to want to touch this issue. If Gurumayi hears a lot of "nos" and "I'm not sure," she won't like it, but at least she will have been given the courtesy of an honest answer. She'll know what kind of devotee she's dealing with. Everyone who posts here, for the sake of honesty, should answer the question "DO YOU BELIEVE GURUMAYI IS A SIDDHA?" Let's start from a point of open honesty, and get away from the rampant subjective relativism we've seen that is a disgrace to Gurumayi and to yoga. Remember: if you are so weak-kneed that you can't bring yourself to answer this question publicly, that is the loudest answer of all. I leave it to onlookers' and Gurumayi's judgment what to think of people who opt to answer "on the inside" instead of in public. After all, you're willing to play the exhibitionist in every other way on the forum--experience talks, philosophical arguments, and so forth--but when the time comes to say "YES, I SUPPORT YOU GURUMAYI, I BELIEVE YOU ARE A SIDDHA" you hide and go "inside." What do you think she'll make of that? Wouldn't it be nice if people would give an answer to one another openly and, for our purposes, online? Isn't the question--is there a siddha in Siddha Yoga--a fair one? Why is this question treated as if it were one of the numerous TABOO topics in Siddha Yoga? If people own up to whether they are following a traditional yoga on one hand, or inventing a sadhana in a self-serving way as they go along on the other, we will have some kind of context for discussion. If it turns out that few believe in the basic tenet of Siddha Yoga--if it turns out that it is nothing more than a bunch of spiritual Johns who are lining up for darshan--we and Gurumayi are better off knowing it as soon as possible. Subj: Re:Are you a spiritual John? 3of Date: 95-09-01 03:10:52 EDT From: X1195 Howie>"DO YOU BELIEVE GURUMAYI IS A SIDDHA?" This is NOT the central question, in fact it is really irrelevant. Gurumayi is clearly designated as representing the line of Siddhas, that were previously represented by Baba and Bade Baba before him. That is ALL that is relevant to us. Her level of attainment is really only relevant to her and Baba. Howie>If it turns out that few believe in the basic tenet of Siddha Yoga... Howie>... the basic idea of SiddhaYoga--that Siddha Yoga requires a Siddha just as potato soup requires a potato--... You should at least do a little reading about Siddha Yoga. In this case, Siddha is an adjective.... "perfect". The basic tenet of Siddha Yoga has nothing to do with the Guru. It is: "Meditate on Yourself, Kneel to Yourself, Honor Yourself, God dwells within you as you." ----------------- Howie>... kundalini yogis are noticing that "the shakti" stays with you even if you reject, in DChap49045's words, "what you are being told." Howie>No matter how you slice it, this is an important spiritual truth that bears repeating to those who are entangled with dubious gurus and dubious thought-systems. Howie>It makes sense, since the shakti is not subservient to any human-made rhetoric of dependency and causality. No, this makes NO sense. If you say the Shakti "stays with you", then you are acknowledging that this Shakti came to you. How did it come to you? Through Siddha Yoga. Thus Siddha Yoga is a valid path for the Shakti, and thus there is nothing "dubious" about it. By the way, nothing in Siddha Yoga encourages dependency, nor does it claim that there is any cause other than You. Citing cases of devotees who misinterpret Siddha Yoga (mostly because they've never cracked a book) by thinking they are dependant, proves nothing. And, as others have said, printing allegations proves nothing either. Subj: Re:Are you John? X1195 Date: 95-09-01 05:54:09 EDT From: AMiller52 X1195 - I've read every book ever written by Baba, about Baba, by Gurumayi, about her, and all the scriptures in the Arati General Store and Moneesh. I'm quite sure Howie Sm has, too. In fact, I know it for a fact. Unfortunately, I threw out all these books when I learned the evidence of Baba's extensive sexual activities and child-molesting - and of Gurumayi's ongoing acceptance of those activities in her ashram. However, open your Guru Gita and read: The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Brahma, the Guru is the ultimate, there is nothing higher than the Guru, give your life, your car, your wife, to the Guru. The Guru is unborn, eternal, the Guru is the root of all yogic action (kriyas). You are the one who has obviously not been doing your required Siddha Yoga reading. Your selective definitions of the SYDA message are either incredibly naive or just duplicitous ( duplicitous is the more likely, since it is the preferred modus operandus of SYDA). It's purely bait and switch: Bait: it's all about the inner Self. Switch: worship the guru, pray to the Guru, bow to the Guru, meditate on the Guru (read Play of Consciousness). The destructive mind game that SYDA plays on devotees is this schizophrenic-making double message. Gurumayi knows quite well that 98% percent of her devotees would drink the water out of her toilet if they had the chance, although the Guru Gita merely prescribes drinking her bathwater. And for Gurumayi and Baba, it's the absolute power and control they have over others that is what SYDA is all about. Subj: Hola's death Date: 95-09-02 05:52:55 EDT From: An302429 Shivamurti has mentioned Hola's death, her shyness and Gurumayi's tendency to pick on her, as a possible cause of her death in her darshan with Gurumayi. What is striking is not only the total denial by the ashram that Hola did indeed die right there in the darshan --- but that Gurumayi never stopped using her battering techniques of verbal and mental rape and torture, even after someone literally died at her feet as a result of it. I guess that since Baba battered Gurumayi in the same way from a very early age, she is compulsively addicted to that kind of behavior. By the way, Gurumayi's plastic surgery was revealed on this message board. Does anyone know more about her eating disorder? Some insiders report that she is or was in the recent past extremely bulimic/anorexic. It is tragic, I think, that so many devotees bring their histories of abuse, eating disorders or compulsive behaviors to Gurumayi, in hopes of being cured. They might as well be telling it to Michael Jackson, Sol Wachtler, or O.J. Simpson. Subj: Re: Sweetness Date: 95-09-03 01:11:23 EDT From: DEVyPABLO Judi, you are a sweetheart too!!! Your appearance on this board inspired me to speak up after just reading. You are so alive! So is, (and I say this with all the love I have to give and someday it will be all the love that I have ), so is everyone else here. Yes things have been messed up by the workings of the human condition... in us as well as the gurus, devotees, finger pointers and defenders. But all I have to say is that we are all doing some courageous work. Look at other boards. THE GOLDEN DAWN. THE YOGANANDA BOARD. THE ROSICRUCIANS. MOTHER MEERA. TIBETAN BUDDHISM. Everywhere there is finger pointing. Everywhere there are disputes about lineage. Everywhere there are people calling eachother wimps,phonys, or worse. This may be a little premature, but I feel that could be moving on... So Howie, please share with us the other yogic sites we should explore. So Judi, I have questions too about the midnight posse that pushes ME around! So Stephen...please tell us in a way that is NOT condescending what it is that we need to know. And the open letter writers, what is the state of your sadhana now? Do you still meditate? With a mantra? Kriyas? Does anyone know about or practice "latihan"? Has anyone anything to say about the Andrew Harvey article in Yoga Journal? What do you think he means when he talks about an unmediated, naked contact with the Divine. And what about the Feminine Divine? And how am I to explain the experiences, both sweet and terrifying, that I experienced in the SY meditations and the inkling of corruption even though I was not an insider... and even if you guys saw me I was just a face in many...hungry for who knows what. I believe that the abuses happened. I can only think of GM as a deity in the context of all of us being deities. Not as someone to worship. If people need to get out the anger about the abuses, DO IT! But I have further concerns... I want to learn. Lets talk about experiences. Why is Shakti so ...SEXY? What about this sweetness? Didn't we all experience it? We all tasted the nectar. We all lost ourselves in song. We were intoxicated with the Divine. And now we lose ourselves in debate about facts, sins, lies... But there was truth there somewhere. I am not giving up so easy. I had a really beautiful love once, about ten years ago... It ended sadly and with lots of hurt. But I also know that the lessons learned were among the sweetest I will ever learn. I was, in the end manipulated and misunderstood. But I wouldn't change a thing. I have courage now that I never had then. What can I say, lovely people? Here and now, there is work to do. Let GO! Lets GO! WE have work to do. Namaste, Pablo Subj: State of Open Letter Writers Date: 95-09-03 04:24:43 EDT From: An302429 Someone recently asked what is the state of those who wrote the open letters. I can't speak for all 108,000 of us, but here's a brief summary of the lives of a few of us: 1) Mr. X was recently named "Sahasrar of the Year" by Realization Magazine, for the 5th consecutive year. Congrats, Mr. X! 2) Mr. Y won $10,000,000 in the Publishers Clearing House Sweekpstakes, and just got engaged to Julia Roberts; current projects include saving the rain forest and re-sealing the ozone layer! 3) Ms. W is completing her 7th year of sitting under the Boddhisatva tree (and thanks again for graciously coming out of samadhi to help us write the letter!). 4) N has transcended all pairs of opposites, including gender, and is currently the manager of Rupaul's Tour Staff! 5) Many of the authors of the letter are denizens of Siddaloka and were channeled. You can speak to them yourself, IF you're sufficiently tuned in! Thanks for asking! We love to share the particulars of our spiritual attainment, and we love to compare our attainment with the attainment of others (I bet my nadis are less clogged than yours)! If you're interested, and I KNOW you are, we can also supply all the details of our diet and exercise programs! Open Letter Writers Ki Jay! Subj: If it talks like a duck . . . Date: 95-09-03 08:53:35 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, To the question: "DO YOU BELIEVE GURUMAYI IS A SIDDHA," we have to date ONE yea, and one CONDITIONAL yea. (Not exactly a stampede of support; let's not stumble over one another in our eagerness to support her!) Nixon had more vocal supporters even in his worst day. Since Gurumayi claims she is a siddha--given what SYDA publishes--I don't think she will be pleased with her disciples' silence and evasions, given that they line up in droves for her to process--with their upturned, devotional countenances. I guess hypocritical behavior is a two-way street. A few people, like Shivamurti and Pablo, have been willing to answer the question "NO," and move our discussions forward with their own views. Perhaps more AOL readers will follow their lead (even though it means pointing out the fraudulence of published SYDA rhetoric). The time has come for us to accept the implications of the gurus' wrongdoings and their lack of qualifications (hey--my next-door neighbor, Mr. Tomkins, is a much better role model); the time has come for us to share how we pursue sadhana as a result of this awareness of fraud; the time has come for us to accept that SYDA's brainwashing is designed to repel yogis who can't--in good conscience--pretend they buy the SYDA shtick (even if they love and respect kundalini) since these expanded-thinking yogis might "poison the minds" of the SYDA sheep. The time has come for us to openly discuss the miracles of yoga without dependence on the wooden, yogaspeak rhetoric of SYDA brainwashing. By the way, this applies particularly to those who think they have successfully broken away from SYDA, given that their posts clearly fail the "duck test." Subj: Open Letter to Gurumayi Date: 95-09-03 14:25:17 EDT From: Siddha Because you have always welcomed me with great respect and with great love, given all that I have been reading here, I need to respond with great respect and great love for all you have given me. I need you to answer these terrible accusations. I believe you are a siddha; I know you have given me shaktipat and much more. I do not need to believe you are perfect, since you have said and written that we are the same. Regardless of what happens, I will keep you in my heart, as my inner guru, and I will continue the sadhana you started for me. But my relationship to you as a person and to Syda Yoga as an institution depends on your being willing to come forward and openly say what is the the truth--(1) what you knew and did not know about George and his treatment of women and girls at the ashram; (2)what you did about what you knew; (3) whether you have kept your vows of monkhood; (4) what do you know about threats towards devotees who have been raising allegations, and what will you do to make sure that does not occur [given what has been written here, I feel that I need to remain anonymous in writing this]; (5) what has been, and what now is your relationship with your brother and his desire to practice his lineage through his own ashram. (6) Finally, and most importantly, since I know you must be aware of the pain of so many of your devotees in response to the reports in this forum, what you will do to encourage openness, honesty and integrity at your ashram about your personal life and among your various managers. There is too much mythmaking and confusion about these issues even among those of us who are devoted, nevermind many of those in this form who are now hostile. I know that if you love us you will respond soon. I expect your response to take a little time. I repeat, I do not expect perfection, but I need truth to be able to stay in Syda Yoga. No response to these serious issues is not adequate from someone with the power and love for us that you have. Please reply in this forum as to when and what avenue (this forum, Darshan, a letter) you will choose to give your devotees a response. With great love and respect. S. Subj: smug replies Date: 95-09-03 16:35:23 EDT From: SpringGift Kai, I want to express my love and somewhat sympathy for you. You get flak from both sides of the SYDA debate. You are a very strong woman. I know that and I want you to know you are respected and admired by someone (me), even though we don't agree on everything pertaining to SYDA yoga. It must be hard for you to mince your words. I know your true voice is very strong. Whoever, (1138?), wrote with an official sounding voice stating SYDA yoga does not require a 'Siddha', but is based on the 'teachings', I have a few replies. (I liked the previous reply to the effect that viewpoints were seemingly being distorted to conveinently fit situations as the situations arise. The examples of this were convincing.) This is what I know. I can only document part of it. SYDA foundation has all the transcripts of Baba's talks. I was too stupid, at the time, to keep a diary, as I should have---and as Baba requested! This part I can probably document because I believe it was published and I have saved everything. When Baba left for Ganeshpuri, in the Autumn of 1981, he had finished having the legal documents all drawn up for the establishment of the SYDA Foundation. (The main legal architect of this, Ron Friedland, died Thanksgiving's day, that year). Before Baba left the U.S,. at the end of that summer, he had a series of statements, "I take refuge in.." published, for us to memorize and contemplate. Part of this, getting everything in order before he left, included an explanation of the SYDA Foundation. One could probably obtain the documents which established the Foundation and read it there. I seem to remember they were publically filed. The principle is very clearly stated. There is no SYDA Foundation, there is no Siddha Yoga, it doesn't exist at all, without a Siddha. B. explained this in detail. Without the Siddha, nothing will work properly. Without the Siddha, the true teaching cannot be disseminated. One, the teachings inevitably will be corrupted because only the Siddha can interpret the teachings properly, apply them in an effective manner, and with the proper timing. Two, the teachings are embodied in the person of the Guru. The guru is the living embodiment of the completion of the aims of yoga. The 'Guru' is basically the definition of Siddha Yoga. Now this next part is what I believe and not what I remember being said. The Guru is extremely special and one can only understand this by having a relationship with a one who is the authentic item, as I believe Baba was. It's not a fantasy or a wish for, hope for. I do not deny the evidence he was also, to phrase it nicely,(antiseptically,and euphemistically)--"more than 'worldly'''. I do have trouble worshipping him at this point, but then again, I'm a westerner and it's against my culture to worship a person anyway. Nothing can change the fact he was my guru. I'm getting used to the idea of a renegade for a guru. It's definitely better for the spiritual pride and any problems with the dreaded ego!? ;~) I guess I'm a disgustingly smug yuppie yogi who does love the world, who does feel for those who did not get what they bargained for or wanted, but who, still though, firmly believes if one is true to oneself and God, ultimately one will be satisfied. To be fair to the person who posted that the 'teachings' themselves were 'Siddha Yoga', (I am open to all information I receive through my 'senses', HURRAH!), Baba also said, "Those who are close to me are not necessarily those who have been close to me physically in this life. Most of those dearest to me will never meet me in person. If one is close to the teachings and loves the teachings, one is close to me". He also said, "While the great being is alive there is no 'religion'. The great being is the religion. Only when the great being is gone does the religion begin." These things I heard with my own ears and I am able to remember with my own good memory. I am a lucky one! smugsmugsmug.:=) Subj: Re:Open Letter to Gurumayi Date: 95-09-04 05:56:15 EDT From: An302429 As one of those who contributed to the writing of the 1995 Open Letter, I would like to sincerely thank the person who posted the Open Letter to Gurumayi, who used the screen name Siddha. This person has responded to the Open Letter in exactly the way that I and the others who wrote it had hoped. I am deeply touched by your response, and with no rancor or sarcasm, I want to respond to you. But first, I will answer X1195's recent post, and state with absolute conviction that I and many others believe that Siddha Yoga is indeed a cult - SYDA is listed as one with Cult Awareness Network, American Family Foundation, Jewish Board of Family Services, and many other organizations. X1195 certainly demonstrates the kind of Kamikaze loyalty that Gurumayi has been so successful in exploiting. This loyalty is what allows the abuses to go on and on. In spite of the fact that the The New Yorker Magazine is one of the most carefully fact-checked publications in the world, X1195 still talks about "rumors," when what we are talking about is facts. And to Howie Sm, thanks for all your insight. We wrote the Open Letter because we believe that Gurumayi is lying when she says she is a Siddha. We believe Gurumayi, and Baba before her, give Shaktipat. We believe that this does NOT therefore mean that they are authentic Siddhas. Gurumayi does claim to be perfect, and this is a false claim. Siddha, your 6 points in which you ask for accountability from Gurumayi are great. This is how I thought that a human being who is open and compassionate and courageous would respond to the Open Letter, the New Yorker article, the Rodarmor article, the Stan Trout 1981 Open Letter. I cannot thank you enough for your response. I am saddened by it, as well, because you have pinpointed exactly why the letter was written and why there are those of us who are now hostile to SYDA. Because we have learned, from years and years of experience with both Baba and Gurumayi, that neither have ever been willing to be accountable about deception and abuse in their ashrams; that they themselves are the source and origin and agents of the deception and abuse and will stop at nothing to conceal it, or shift the blame to others. Someone recently told me that devotees have been told that certain managers are responsible for the excessive expansion of SYDA in the '80s, and that it wasn't what Gurumayi wanted. What nonsense. Gurumayi controls every thing that happens in that Ashram. She has battered her core staff into a cringing, submissive, masochisitic state, from which they gladly shield and protect Gurumayi from any accountability for anything, by taking it on themselves. In fact, they don't blink an eyelid without her permission. The only one she could not control was George Afif. Sometimes he did things she wanted him to do; sometimes he did what he wanted whether she wanted him to or not. Gurumayi may now try to blame Afif for many abuses in the ashram, but the fact is that they ran SYDA together. Gurumayi knew of his abuses of young women, and did nothing to stop it. In fact - and I witnessed this - she encouraged him. Ultimately Afif and Gurumayi got into a power struggle, and she dumped him. But this happened before, when he pleaded no contest to statutory rape charges in the case of the 16 year old girl in Oakland, and he came back then. Gurumayi is weak when it comes to George Afif. We wish that none of this were true. We never wanted to lose what we had devoted our lives to. But we have witnessed and observed and learned of all the things in the 1995 and 1981 Open Letters, the New Yorker article, the Rodarmor article, and of much much more that is not in any of these essays. We believe that as human beings who wish to uphold values of decency, compassion, honesty -- in short, dharma -- we must speak out about what we know and attempt to stop Gurumayi from hurting, deceiving and abusing others. Thank you again, Siddha, for writing the Open Letter to Gurumayi. Subj: On the question of motives Date: 95-09-04 09:40:38 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, I join An302429 in thanking "Siddha" for posting the open letter to Gurumayi (if only something meaningful like "Siddha's" open letter could be presented formally in a private darshan, but that would probably be impossible; we know that the mere mention of reconciliation with Nityananda is not only grounds for having a private darshan request rejected by the gur-eaucracy, but has in the past been grounds for physical expulsion from the ashram, and blacklisting. I also thank An302429 for reminding us that the open letter writers display a sense of conscience and duty, like that displayed by Swami Abhayananda when he wrote: "I believe that when a Guru begins to lose sight of moral values--whether because of senility, madness, illness, or whatever reason--, and regards others as objects to manipulate and use for his own ends, and when he begins to resort to threats of violence to hide the lie of his personal life, it is a disciple's DUTY to leave that Guru." Abhayananda's decision to write an open letter is inspiring and commendable, and demonstrates spiritual awareness. What are the motives of the 1995 open letter writers? A few thoughts follow. It seems obvious why people who know about SYDA take a minute to post on AOL, one of the only free speech zones where one can address SYDAites. If I were a victim of fraud, I should hope others would point it out to me; that would be common courtesy. Since the open letter writers are pointing out fraud, I accordingly interpret their motives as altruistic. Also, perhaps some want to come forward as a matter of conscience, to make up for their active or passive involvement in Gurumayi's wrongdoings. Those who wish the open letter writers would drop dead elsewhere are too self-centered to notice that the open letter writers seem to be STAUNCH SUPPORTERS of spiritual development. Someone who loves humanity would naturally want to expose fraudulent yogis since they are harmful to others. The open letter writers' intent seems clear: to facilitate people's upward mobility--spiritually, financially, emotionally, and so forth--by reporting the facts they know. I am honored that an earlier post mentioned me in the company of the open letter writers, for I feel they, Michael Dinga, Stan Trout, and others like them are clear-headed heroes. It obviously would have been easier for them all to have taken the selfish route, that is, to walk away without telling what they know. As it is, they are taking the heat. (For example, SYDA threatened to castrate Michael Dinga for talking.) The open letter is a public service message, made possible by the great free-speech medium of AOL! (Thanks, Golden Seva.) Though the open letter's few pages scarcely counterbalance the tons of propaganda spewed from the infinity of SYDA documents, programs, videos, tapes, courses, talks, and brainwashed mouths, the open letter's ideas will nonetheless rise to the top, as plain and honest speech always does. Subj: Re:Kaiwahine's answer! Date: 95-09-07 16:18:34 EDT From: TheCatmen Dear Pam, Spiritual experiences are a totally different and seperate thing from all the goings on up in the ashram, or in the centers. I used to love Gurumayi. Now I see it totally differently. I can't trust a teacher who gives double messages, ie: amazing experiences and being told to keep secrets or to harrass people who challenge the system. Those things didn't add up for me. They are not compatible. Integrity comes when I come face to face with my good and dark selves in meditation. This also applies to my understanding of Gurumayi. She also has a bright and a dark side. We aren't allowed to call it that, her dark side is OUR faults. I now see her as a whole and stop taking on her dark side as my bad karma, or my short commings. I can see where she ends and I begin. The stories are disturbing. But the same thing goes on in our own relationships with Gurumayi. You have to ask yourself, what do take on in this situation which isn't really me. I tried so hard to fit the yogi mold as dictated by Gurumayi. It wasn't me. Yet I was pretty much demolished by her cruelty. It's taken years to regain my health. I don't hold myself in contempt for falling for the deciets, for there were good reasons for becoming involved. I'm just so damn glad I saw the truth and got myself out of SYDA. Subj: Holah Speirs' Death Date: 95-09-08 18:07:03 EDT From: Shivamurti I received an e-mail today from Snagulator, who claims to have been Holah's best friend. She says Holah loved Gurumayi, there is no doubt at all about this. Holah, as did many, devoted her life to her guru. She worked long hours at the clinic in Ganeshpuri, and found time to take care of animals as well. While she may not have been as shy with the devotees, she was indeed this way with Gurumayi. Many times others would have to speak to Gurumayi for her, when the guru asked her a question. Do you deny this, Snagulator? And how do you feel about the way your best friend's death was handled by Gurumayi and SYDA? Are you still a devotee after this? Holah was a kind, loving person who deserved better than controversy after death. Subj: Re:Holah Speirs' Death Date: 95-09-08 21:52:34 EDT From: An302429 Shivamurti, I also have never forgotten Hola's death, although I put it out of my mind for many years, accepting and ignoring what happened in the ashram after her death. Only when I made up my mind to reject Gurumayi after hearing from a friend about Gurumayi's cruelty to her when this friend was being sexually harassed by George Afif, and started to allow myself to feel all my feelings about the innumerable unethical, cruel and dishonest things I'd seen Gurumayi do over the years, did I then recall Hola's death. Gurumayi's # 1 agenda when Hola died was to find all the ways Gurumayi could avoid any responsibility for Hola's death; it was all about damage control. The close devotees were alerted that they were expected to protect Gurumayi by saying that Hola didn't actually die in the Ashram, she died on the way to the hospital. But she did die, right in the darshan. When Vinaya, and Malcolm and Tejasa, and others, wrote to Gurumayi about Hola, they were told to leave the ashram at once. People who were there and who knew about this and are willing to be honest about it should speak up on this board. These are facts. Gurumayi silenced the whole ashram about Hola's death by instantly banishing those who had any questions about it. Everyone else shut up quick when they heard that the people who asked questions were banished. I don't think Gurumayi "caused" Hola's death. I just think she demonstrated her typical cowardice and selfishness by making it her priority to protect herself first, get everyone to clamp their mouths shut, and go on as though nothing had happened. Almost 60 people have downloaded the Open Letter about SYDA, and almost 30 downloaded the 1981 Letter. What do you people have to say? Are you scared to get on here and talk about what you are hearing? I invite you all to delete your user profiles, remain anonymous, and talk about what you are thinking and feeling as you hear Hola's story and all the other information in the Open Letters. Nothing will happen to you. Fear of speaking the truth or of having feelings is a sure sign that Siddha Yoga is damaging you. Please feel free to speak out here. You sought liberation for all these years with the Guru - this is it! Speak out, say what you think, criticize the Guru freely! See what it feels like. It's not the truth that hurts people, it's the lies. Subj: Question on SY history Date: 95-09-09 15:09:27 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Q and A--a good idea. FACTS OF SIDDHA YOGA HISTORY (THAT HAVE BEEN COVERED UP, ORWELL STYLE) Question: Who did Baba want to be his successor? Answer: Swami Prakashananda was Baba's choice of successor. Prakashananda refused it repeatedly: the offer was repeated numerous times. After Prakashananda's refusals, Baba finally decided to offer the lineage to the bush league dynamic duo--Malti and Subhash (AKA Gurumayi and Nityananda). If you doubt this, carefully interview honest, inner circle, oldtimers. Subj: Re:Gee a Siddha? Date: 95-09-10 18:16:05 EDT From: LD3140 Dear Fellow Posters, I have been away and reading two weeks of posts is overwhelming. I wanted to respond to so many, but would find someone had already said what I wanted to say at some point.We are connected! Whatever position we may take its clear that people really care about the truths that run their spiritual lives. That's inspiring even if it is exhausting. Howie: No, I don't think gurumayi is a Siddha.She is spiritually gifted and seems to have a powerful charismatic personality, none of which she has been able to rest solidly in an integrity that would inspire us. I received alot from my association with her, I loved her and that gave me alot. i am clear that she did not return the feeling but used me; not unlike many a love relationship! the beauty of it was that it allowed me to tell the difference between real love and the user variety. The important part is me.I was there to receive. I was there to use what I received.I can tell the difference and know the truth. The guru giving it to me was INSIDE me. The gurumayi outside was just a finger pointing like so many fingers pointing toward the grace in me/ in us. The guru disciple relationship you spoke of is an INSIDE job.If the gurumayi or the baba who came along to point at it hadn't been there another pointer would have been found by that supremely creative and loving God INSIDE who seems to use these poor guru types to teach them a lesson. This is not to say she can't become a better pointer and telling the truth would be a good start. I see my disappointment with her inability to tell the truth comes out; I find myself unwilling to capitalize her name. No, she doesn't have to be perfect, but I worked in the PR department and she had to be perfect and we all knew it and we knew what happened to people who didn't portray her that way.She was in charge you betcha! Pam, Ghosts and Deamons( Lions and Tigers and Bears Oh My) are not the reason for the abuse, lying and cruelty in the ashram. The causes are just the same old mundane stuff that corrupts any of us,the desire for more power, more money and a cleaner and brighter facade to hide the dirty tricks. Pam and D Chap49045 I think you both mentioned therapists or being therapists. Some of my friends had the misfortune to go to Colin Horn and Richard Gillette, gurumayi's pet therapists who think nothing of reporting back to gurumayi everything told them in confidence so they can have a good laugh. Yeah, I am angry about the contempt in that, and sad about the detail it adds to the picture of a gurumayi who wants to control people so much, who fears their pain and is willing to manipulate them. And I thought she was busy meditating and chanting and wishing us all well. Perhaps she did that as well in between her sessions with George. Oh well, we're none of us perfect. Subj: You call this spirituality? Date: 95-09-12 03:14:04 EDT From: BnBrned My experience with SYDA was brief and intense. I saw, in a matter of months, the kind of self-serving, delusional, selfish mindlessness which history ultimately remembers as those which have poured poison in the well of life. To call this spirituality would be to say that skinheads are humanitarians. These are people who collude and conspire to reward their own super-inflated egos and to destroy the well-being of the dissident, the confused and the weak. Gurumayi, her cabal, and her inconsistent teachings prey upon the consciences of the unwary as hyenas prey on the young, feeble and lame. If the world were governed by moral law, these people would be high criminals. They are, in any case, and one can only hope that someday they will be uncovered and treated to their just desserts. Which, they will wash down, no doubt, with Kool-Aid. If you wish to be spiritual, to follow the path of the holy; find a man without a home, and feed him; find a child without love, and love her. Give love. But, not to a guru. When you visit their country club, ask yourself this question: "Where does all the money go?" Is anybody being helped? Saved? Healed? I did, and was told that the money is needed to support the country club, and the travels of Gurumayi and her entourage. In other words, for their comfort, and for the process of collecting more. Go there, to learn how to waste your life on yourself! Go inside yourself, to learn how to save the world! Subj: " CBS 60 MINUTES" - ANYONE? Date: 95-09-12 13:19:20 EDT From: BnBrned As these fires burn brighter and hotter, as more and more people come forward with their painful experiences of SYDA, as the world reels from the devastating effects of cults, DOES ANYONE AGREE THAT IT'S TIME TO SHINE A BRIGHT LIGHT INTO THESE DARK SHADOWS? ISN'T IT TIME TO SEE WHAT CRAWLS OUT? IF YOU WISH TO HELP CAUSE AN INVESTIGATIVE REPORT ON SYDA, GURUMAYI, ET AL, BY "60 MINUTES", PLEASE SEND YOUR ENCOURAGEMENT/STORY TO: CBS NEWS "60 MINUTES" 524 W. 57TH STREET NEW YORK, NY 10019 ATTN: STORY EDITOR C'mon, people, it really is time that we stop bantering amongst ourselves about what is going on here. Other than those still infected with the "bliss", every one of us knows that there is something very insidious and dangerous happening under the guise of spirituality. How many times do we need to see similar to this go up in flames, taking lives, before we try to stop it, before it happens again? If Gurumayi and her followers have nothing to hide, nothing will be exposed. If they do, maybe they will be stopped, lose their tax shelters or, at least, the unwary will be warned. Please think about the responsibility you have in the knowledge you possess, and stop operating just at the level of an AOL forum, for long enough to help turn on a BRIGHT LIGHT! Let's really stop those who hurt others, for their own good. Whenever we can. Subj: Re:SYDA Dissent-Bibliography Date: 95-09-12 18:45:07 EDT From: Howie Sm I noticed one significant omission to the posted SYDA bibliography. One other useful selection is also given below. 1. A "must read" to be added to the bibliography is: The Illustrated Weekly of India, January 19, 1986. Sailesh Kottary's cover story. This article has too much in it to summarize--just find it and read it. Oh yes: while sitting down. 2. Also see "Guideposts on the Path" by Stephan Bodian, Yoga Journal, January/February 1991. This might appeal to those who sincerely desire a guru path, but are experiencing confusion over what has been written on this board. Part of its sub-caption reads: "Here is some hard-won advice for avoiding the most obvious pitfalls on your spiritual journey." Bodian's article fits SYDA like a glove. Whether you like Gurumayi or not, you probably will find Bodian's article stimulating. Subj: Healing in SYDA? Date: 95-09-15 09:52:11 EDT From: AMiller52 My recent comment about many of the people in SYDA coming from very disturbed backgrounds was considered by one person here to be a "snide commentary on the amount of ex-addicts, alcoholics, incest survivors etc. among SYDA's population - you should be thankful that such a group has been able to heal within the Guru's environment, or if nothing else, to change their behavior from that of self-harm to self-love." The point of my comment was not to be snide. It is that many of us who sought refuge in SYDA from painful backgrounds did gain some ground; we did drop some of our addictions, we did experience love that felt healing. Unfortunately, we also experienced seriously detrimental effects from our participation; in many cases, we substituted Gurumayi for the drug, or compulsive behavior, or addiction, or workaholism, or fear of intimacy, etc. etc. that we were suffering from. We became addicted to the guru, and in my opinion were encouraged to do so. The Guru is like a narcotic drug, which synthetically fulfills all our human needs, for a while. When the effect starts to wear off, and we must face our fears and aloneness again, we turn to the drug. Even though the drug eventually will kill us, will kill off our humanity as we keep turning to it again and again. Why I think this is true of SYDA is that most participants refused to read the New Yorker article of Nov. 14, 1994, or they read it and ignored it; and thereby closed their eyes and ears to the grotesque sexual abuse, deception, and cruelty that was so painstakingly and accurately documented there. This is the price they are paying to maintain their addiction to the guru and prevent themselves from facing the fear, pain and aloneness that drove them to the guru in the first place. The price is their own ability to discern the truth, and to respond appropriately to crimes against humanity. The truth, and their humanity, must be sacrificed to maintain loyalty to an idealized, magical, stranger, a drug called the guru. Subj: Allegations (part 1 of 2) Date: 95-09-15 17:19:02 EDT From: X1195 An>Muktananda was never a true successor to Nityananda, for example. An>The pictures that show them together are cut and paste jobs like those you see in the tabloid papers. There are all these little allegations floating around. So far, two others have been shown to be false in this forum by people who were there at the time. Here is another: This is a quote by someone who is not at all affiliated with SYDA in any way. This quote is from the early 1960's: " The first time I was in Ganeshpuri, I met a man who was acting as one of Nityananda's lieutenants, Swami Muktananda. We seemed to understand each other, even though he spoke no English, but then I often get along better with the lieutenants than the generals. " Since Muktananda was there, and was in a close relationship with Bhagavan Nityananda, then there's clearly no reason to fake pictures. So, while some here jump up and down screaming "What if the allegations are true?", we must think clearly,and ponder "What if the allegations are not true?". This is definitely something that must be contemplated by those reading these allegations. If the allegations are not true, then among other things, it means: - People who have seen certain things have misinterpreted them. We've already seen strong and specific evidence of this in earlier discussions here. - People assume that if the same allegations are repeated often enough they must be true. - People whose egos were assailed by the processes of Siddha Yoga that are specifically and legitimately designed to do just that, became angry at the "cruelty". When I read that "cruelty" is one of the allegations, it became clear to me that some of those involved in the allegations had no real idea of what is *supposed* to happen in Siddha Yoga. [Back about a thousand years ago, Milarepa was asked by his Guru, Marpa, to build a house out of stones which he had to carry by himself. After Milarepa built the house, Marpa found some tiny flaw and angrily demanded that Milarepa tear it down and rebuild it. This process went on until Milarepa had rebuilt the house nine times, at which point, Marpa, realizing that Milarepa had now worked off some pretty bad karma and some strong ego problems, announced that Milarepa was his successor. Fortunately, there were no anti-cult deprogrammers then, otherwise Milarepa could have run to them, protesting about the "cruelty" and would never have become one of the greatest yogis in history.] - People assumed that, like in a corporation, years of service would be rewarded with some sort of promotion to positions of authority and a banquet in their honor, and became angry when it became clear that this was not happening. Again, these people really didn't understand what was *supposed* to go on, since clearly that sort of ego inflation is the worst possible thing for your sadhana. Some of these people became angry enough to either deliberately concoct lies, or else their anger simply caused them to assume the worse possible interpretation of things that they saw or heard gossip about. - To these disaffected people, all these events become distorted further and further from the original bare facts, as the process of "telephone" occurs, and each person in the gossip line restates the incident in their own words, coloring it further. Note that none of the various articles and letters contain one word of first-hand description, everything is told by someone who was told by someone else, etc. (continued in part 2) Subj: Allegations (part 2 of 2) Date: 95-09-15 17:20:24 EDT From: X1195 (continued from part 1) - Note that we have a mix of people involved in support for these allegations. Some, like Mr. T.P. were involved for a very short while, and due to their angry and egotistical dispositions ("I'd like to take a baseball bat to the head of the person who introduced me to Siddha Yoga"-T.P.) decided that participating in the attacks would be a satisfying activity. Others were involved for a long time, but never contemplated enough to really understand why ego-bashing is so important to sadhana, so they couldn't quite release their societal programming that what they saw was "cruelty". Thus we have some people who can't help viewing everything the way mainstream society views it, who then hear other things from angry, aggressive people that are severely distorted or even wholly made up out of thin air. Thus dissidents can point to both nice people and long term devotees who agree with them, even though that means nothing. The main thing to realize that, due to the nature of Siddha Yoga sadhana, there will always be people making these sorts of allegations. People who expect ego rewards instead of ego bashing will become disaffected and make allegations, this will continue to happen in any effective yogic discipline. This is one of the reasons, why, in the days before Siddha Yoga, initiates had to go through a whole ego crushing experience *before* being allowed to have Shakipat. This is the trade off that Baba made when he opened the doors to anyone who was interested. To:X1195 From: E2233 OK, X1195 - According to you, the open letter authors and other SYDA critics are cult deprogrammers. And are you a brainwashed, Kool Aid-drinking cult-clone zombie? My point is, we can all call each other names; we can descend to the lowest common denominator all over the Internet, any time we want. I think it is more important and would be more productive if we could listen to each other with respect, and find out why various people are using this forum to speak out about taboo, suppressed information. Your position is that all the criticism is untrue and/or irrelevant, and written by malicious people for malicious purposes. Isn't that rather harsh? Are you certain of this? Aren't you protesting too much? Are you deeply afraid of looking at the truth? I have discovered that many, many people in SYDA come from backgrounds of abuse in their family of origin: sexual abuse, alcoholism, physical abuse, and so on. Many people cannot bear to learn that baba and gurumayi are also abusers; IF THEY HAD TO CONFRONT THAT INFORMATION, THEY WOULD ALSO HAVE TO CONFRONT THEIR OWN PAINFUL HISTORY, WHICH THEY HAVE TURNED TO SYDA, IN DESPERATION, TO TRY TO PUT BEHIND THEM. I have observed this over and over with people who refuse to look at the truth about SYDA. You'd be amazed to know how many of the wonderfully together-looking people in SYDA used to be cocaine addicts, or prostitutes, or alcoholics, or compulsive gamblers, or heroin addicts, or etc. etc. etc. I could name many names, but of course, I won't. So, X1195, there is far more to the comments of the dissenters on this board than what you would like to reduce it to. It's much bigger and more meaningful than you try to narrow it down to. Shouldn't our consciousness be expanding, rather than contracting? Isn't that the point of sadhana? Subj: Re:Allegations of X1195 Date: 95-09-15 17:54:54 EDT From: An302429 X, I disagree with you about ego deflation. I think the majority of people who come to SYDA have terribly weak egos to begin with. They need to have their egos strengthened - you need a strong ego, as Baba used to say (and here I agree with him), to be able to distinguish true from false; to distinguish between surrender and submission; to be able to honor and respect one's self and others. Gurumayi bashes egos because she is a sadistic power-abuser, who needs to control others so that she can protect herself from being exposed for her dishonesty and fraudulence, her acceptance of sexual abuse of young girls, her participation in financial fraud, and all the other abuses she learned at Baba's knee. In my opinion, sheep-like devotees who blind themselves to the corruption and abuses of their gurus have very weak egos that need to be strengthened. It's their bashed down egos that make them such perfectly compliant and obedient battered spouses to the guru. Subj: Proof Date: 95-09-16 01:42:36 EDT From: Hazrat10 Where is your proof? Name names! If there are hundreds of girls - where are they now. Where is the documentation? Or like the article in the New Yorker where the girl states the Baba talked to her after they had intercourse. Of cause it is never mentioned that Baba spoke no English - and this girl was an American. Where are all these scores of people you speak of? How come Gurumayi has so much radiance if she is such a bad person? Are you blind to that? Or can you explain that away saying its the make up she uses. How come Baba had so much radiance if he was such a sinner ejaculating every night with a different woman. Why are there so many highly educated people that have been with Gurumayi and Baba for years? People you cant fool. Thousands of them. You are one percent out of 99! But you say you are right! And we are all wrong. Are you more radiant than Gurumayi! What a person is on the inside shows on the outside. Yes you can explain all that away. But your still one percent out of a 100. Because of people like you - the Darshan line will be shorter! Thanks! Why do you post here if you hate Siddha Yoga so much! Is this your therapy writing here. Why Don't you seek professional help. I guess your trying to warn us all, right? In your mind you got burned, so now you want to warn the world! Hazrat - Baba spoke broken English, about as much as Venkappa does. He just didn't do it in public, for the most part. As for all the educated people you can't fool, what I am saying is that they have been fooled. The whole German nation was fooled by Hitler, and much of the rest of the world was, by the way. Most did not believe there were concentration camps - and there are still plenty who will say that there weren't any. And of course many Germans are and were highly intelligent. Gurumayi's plastic surgery and make-up, her colorful silk robes, with the occasional diamond-showered pin, do contribute something to her "radiance," as you describe it. She certainly is charismatic, as have been many dangerous leaders throughout history, who also had many highly educated and brilliant followers. Such leaders may also be brilliant thinkers, with great talents, although I don't (and most of the world doesn't) put Gurumayi in that category. She is powerful, but her power is stolen, in my opinion, from the devotees that adore her. Their love, their devotion, their faith, is the source of her power; which they give away to her, and which she gladly accepts, because it keeps her in business. As for naming names, it is my hope that some day the women involved will all gather together and present themselves publicly. The ones I know and know of, are still struggling with confusion, shame, and fear. "Didn't I enjoy it at the time? Sometimes I thought he was divine, maybe it was divine having sex with him? Maybe it was my fault? If I speak out SYDA will never stop threatening, harassing or maligning me. I've gone on with my life, I don't want people in my new life to know all this." Etc etc. They go through all that the countless victims of incest, who also do not always speak out, go through. There are many reasons why people don't speak out. Of course, when people first did speak out (see the Rodarmor article), they were threatened with violence. Name names, you say: ask Ganapati, Marcel, Kaunteya, Ganesh and Sanand, who were the men who chased Nityananda around the airport, as described in the New Yorker article? They may not tell the truth, but it was them; Gurumayi's top managers, acting like common hoodlums on her behalf. The other way people in SYDA now talk about this is to say that, well, these abuses occurred because of George Afif, and things are much better now that he is gone. One thing I always noticed about Gurumayi was her extraordinary ability to avoid all accountability by scapegoating others. Yes, the 1 percent who have spoken out, Like the former Swami Abhayananda, are pretty effectively silenced in SYDA. That's why I post here. Yup, I want to warn the world, and so far, although Gurumayi is indeed being fed the information being posted here, SYDA has not succeeded in silencing it. It wasn't just my own personal experience of abuse (you call it "got burned") that leads me to speak out; it's the pervasive abuse discussed in the Open Letter, and its impact on so many people, that is important to me. Since I once thought that I could make a worthwhile contribution to the world by supporting SYDA, and found the opposite to be true, I may as well use the SYDA platform here to continue my attempt to contribute something. If you don't like it, skip over it, just like I skip over all of Steven Vanier's posts. Finally, I cannot deny that it is very therapeutic, having been so well trained by Gurumayi to lie on her behalf, to now speak out and tell the truth. Subj: Re:To: svaroopa Date: 95-09-16 22:06:54 EDT From: LD3140 If Gurumayi and SYDA could remain true to just one central teaching "See God in each other" none of these posts would be necessary. Harassing her brother and his followers, following them from city to city, throwing young girls out of the ashram when they complained about George's sexual harassment, and covering up Baba's sexual activities arethe antithesis of the compassion evoked by that wonderful teaching. If you follow that teaching you aren't going to be able to hurt people. I was asked to harrass someone and told it was Gurumayi's idea. Luckily I said no. But, I was blackballed and not allowed to do any of the sevas I had done before. A whisper campaign (one of the favored methods of control in the ashram ) was begun about me. It sounds like such a childish way to behave but it was the order of the day around gurumayi.I know others who were asked to harass their colleagues and her brother. they said yes and have the courage now to admit their mistakes. The whisper campaigns still go on. I am grateful this board exists. It provides a forum very different from the fearful, careful deadened atmosphere of the ashram and many centers where people who had questions and doubts were shunned or ridicule and kept from any "meaningful" seva. .Anyone can post, anyone can ignore a post or be stung into replying. There is a real dialogue about gurumayi and her organization going on. I know it's real because it's sometimes angry, not pretty, incoherent, sly, over heated as well as to the point, accurate, clever, funny etc.Except in the most sanitized way,Syda could never be discussed among the devotees who wanted to serve in any other place but the garden (remember the bodies buried there? I do.) Subj: Is SY a cult? Date: 95-09-16 22:33:03 EDT From: Yogi J "When you meet the friendliest people you have ever known, who introduce you to the most loving group of people you've ever encountered, and you find the leader to be the most inspired, caring, compassionate and understanding person you've ever met, and then you learn that that cause of the group is something you never dared hope could be accomplished, and all of this sounds too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true! Don't give up your education, your hopes and ambitions, to follow a rainbow." -- Jenne Mills, former member of the People's Temple and subsequent victim of assasination a year following the November 18, 1978 Jonestown suicide/murders of 911 adults and children. Subj: surgery Date: 95-09-17 10:29:18 EDT From: Sara128977 To: An302429 how do you ((know)) Gurumayi had cosmetic surgery? Do you have dates, eyewitnesses? just curious Sara - You bring up a good point. Baba had power, prestige, he had respect, he was connected to Bade Baba, not a mere imposter. He was an extraordinary man. Thank you for acknowledging that the photos are composites, though. There have always been highly respected individuals who have accomplished great things, who were privately engaged in compulsive behavior they could not control; some of this behavior, in some cases, has been violent, cruel, destructive. I believe Muktananda was such a person. His sexual activities were compulsive, beyond his control, and he needed to use every kind of denial to defend his reputation. He was willing to use, and did use, threats of violence to keep others' mouths shut. And he developed many ways of covering up his abusive behavior which continue to be put to use by Gurumayi today. Both Gurumayi and Baba, despite their extraordinary power, did not and do not have the courage or the strength to openly face up to or free themselves of the secret, compulsive, destructive side of their nature. They deny, rationalize, justify their destructive behavior -- and they abuse their power over their followers with little phrases like "gossip in Amrit." With that one little phrase, which people still use today, they succeed in shutting everybody up, getting the whole dysfunctional family to keep the secrets. Didn't they also say, 'test the guru, don't accept a guru, test them, use your discrimination'? Just try doing that in the ashram these days, IF you can get past the Big Brother digital photo technology. If you do get past it, and ask questions, you'll get passed around to swamis and trustees for a while, and if you don't shut up, you'll see those gates clanking shut in your face when your picture comes up on the security computer. And of course, this obvious measure to shut out any and all dissent, controversy, or 'testing of the guru,' is hailed by devotees as a blessing from gurumayi, who is "protecting" them from unspiritual vibes. So while once, Gurumayi had ten million hostesses trained, and all the staff exhorted again and again, to welcome everyone, sacrifice your seat in the hall, we're expanding and you old timers and staff have to make way for all these new people; well, now that the hidden secrets of SYDA are out, it's "managers wanted it big, Gurumayi wants it small" and "let's protect everyone from tourists." Well, if Americans voted for Nixon, I guess they can have Gurumayi for their guru. Some of us used to collude with the gurus of SYDA about keeping these secrets, but we're gaining the strength to stop lying now, and face the truth in ourselves and the truth about the guru. Subj: complete and utter hypocrisy Date: 95-09-17 23:51:55 EDT From: Dasein5 I would like to wish a hearty congratulations and thank you to those who for so long on this post have so bravely presented themselves honestly. I just the other day discovered this discussion group and the famous Open Letters and have rapidly read through as much of the history as I could. In answer to the question of Gurumayi's siddha status: I think it is obvious that she is highly eloquent and charismatic although dishonest, materialistic, and vain. Does this disqualify her from an enlightened siddha status? If we make the claim that her character does disqualify her, the retort will simply be made that we cannot judge these beings by our ordinary, limited understanding. We will be told that she is simply a mirror, reflecting back to us the faults we seem to detect in her. So be it. What I would like to point out is the complete and utter hypocrisy demonstrated by SYDA followers. Evaluating behavior to detect a false guru, a critical thinking skill encouraged by Baba himself, in the case of Gurumayi or Baba is dismissed by SYDA followers as negative or immature. "We just cannot understand the ways of siddhas." And yet, the very same sorts of evaluations are made by them in declaring her brother Nityananda a false guru. The difference in the case of Nityananda is that he has admitted his mistakes. He admits of past indiscretions. He doesn't claim to be more than human. He has on occasion demonstrated the ability to be honest. That is the first step in earning my respect. Now I do not claim that he is therefore an enlightened siddha. But for that matter, I also do not know that anyone can claim that for anyone. I believe he is a human being attempting to deal with a very bizarre and confusing life situation which was partly thrust upon him and for which he also bears some responsibility. His becoming recognized as a Mahamandeleshwar is a great cultural honor, but it is entirely a cultural honor. I believe we are all simply human, and we achieve various sorts of insights in various sorts of disciplines. Einstein realized something. Buddha realized something else. It is worth noting that those who rise to the greatest levels of spiritual respect in our history maintain something of personal humility. Compare the character of Gandhi to that of Hitler. Both were great leaders. Both were shrewd. Both had great strengths. Both also had faults. But in our hearts we trust Gandhi in a way which we cannot with Hitler. Why? It has something to do with honesty, integrity, humility. Gandhi attempted to correct his own faults, whereas Hitler attempted to correct those who faulted him. Which character do we feel in the leadership of SYDA? "By their fruits ye shall know them." Subj: Re:complete and utter hypocrisy Date: 95-09-19 21:00:48 EDT From: Dasein5 >Gandhi was not enlightened either. I agree, but that really isn't the point. More to the point - neither of us actually knows anything at all about Gandhi's state of mind, but I would certainly trust him as a person more than I would someone like Saddam Hussein. Again, we are all just human beings attempting to make some sense of our existence. People achieve various types of realizations about various things in various ways. The fundamental insight is that which genuinely resolves the conflict we feel in our hearts regarding who we are and what "things" are. People are too glib with the term "enlightenment". What really matters is - are we at home in our heart? Now there are some who have achieved this "at homeness" in their heart but have retained some arrogance. They do not love others or feel compassion. They think of others as stupid fools to be ridiculed, used, or manipulated. We might consider this a demonic realization, although we shouldn't take the term "demonic" too seriously and thus become superstitious. SYDA embodies this sort of demonic realization. There certainly is an uncanny presence of something there, a remarkable presence, but it is dark, tainted, self-serving. Subj: Re:complete and utter hypocrisy Date: 95-09-19 21:02:50 EDT From: Dasein5 >Gandhi and Hitler were two sides of the same coin. It is more like this: Gurumayi and George Afif are flip sides of the same coin, but the coin is counterfeit. It is a very cleverly made coin, in many ways a very beautiful, seductive coin, but it was manufactured with some deceit. Subj: Re:To Posting by HenryD7890 8/13 Date: 95-09-01 21:07:29 EDT From: Shivamurti Concerning Hola's death, some of the devotees felt that Gurumayi used to "pick on" Hola too much. Hola was extremely shy (this is an understatement!) and nervous individual who could barely bring herself to talk, or even sometimes to look, at Gurumayi. I cannot judge Gurumayi's asking someone like this to stand up in front of everyone to answer a question as being cruel, knowing her mental and emotional fragility. It very likely, indeed, almost certainly what caused poor Hola to have her heart attack. Subj: Re:Allegations (part 2 of 2) Date: 95-09-21 01:35:16 EDT From: Lintillent It's simply not true that there are no first hand reporters on this bbs. The people who posted the Open Letter were obviously, to me, who has been in it half my life, people who had been close to GM, as they said they were. There is simply no other way for them to know the things they know and to speak the way they spoke. Do you think the eyewitness account of the person dropping dead in front of GM as well as the numerous accounts of the cover-up of it was second hand? I, myself, could believe, as well as did believe, for a very long long time, that the allegations, against Baba, of sexual *misconduct* were lies made up by a single disgruntled individual. (I really did not want to bring this up because it is a very unpleasant subject for me and detracts from the very real value of the Siddha Yoga teachings.) However, you really must understand that there are real people out here, talking about real experiences and real events and you are not, sort of, hearing some wierd echo of a telephone game, started and kept going by people with offended egos. (By the way, if you think having your ego destroyed and bruised makes you enlightened, why don't you just get a dominatrix? Or a least a psychiatrist? It's cheaper financially and time-wise. If that is what it takes to become spiritual. And doesn't pretend to be something it's not.) You seem to be a spokesperson for the teachings. They sure must have changed since Baba's time. He always taught over and over again to love ourselves, to not believe we are *sinners*. He taught that for a Kashmiri Shaivaite the worst *sin* is to feel less than perfect. And that we should practice feeling good about ourselves, as in practicing the attitude "I am Shiva", "I am the Guru". Have you ever heard Gurumayi teach any of this at all? Is this what she also teaches? I certainly haven't heard or read it. However, after many people who I'd known for many years, some of them still *in* Siddha Yoga, and all of them much closer to both Guru-s than I ever was, attested to it, in detail, with specifics, with individuals. The same story over and over again by so many people,from so many different sources, from people I had known and seen for years. People who had been honored in the hierarchy of Siddha Yoga for many many years, who had been around Baba, traveled with him, who I had known and seen forever and a day. Why would they all be lying? Unfortunately I could no longer deny it. My own experience of the Shakti would not have led me to believe such a thing. In fact, after the death of Baba, it was the second most shocking thing I have experienced in my life. And I believe I have yet to get over it. I truly feel like crying. I know for a fact that you X1187, whoever you are, have not contacted the writer of the New Yorker article to find out HOW MANY women she spoke to who all told the same story. Nor have you tried to talk to any of them yourself. Or else you would know the truth. And you wouldn't be posting such an ignorant, but nevertheless, truly offensive post. I'm sorry if you are hurt by this. Wake up. It's a good thing to do. It's what I was told when I first found this out. Subj: Re:Photos Date: 95-09-21 02:59:22 EDT From: Lintillent X1195, Didn't you notice the security guards and the guard house? Or that the whole thing is fenced in with chain-link fence? Have you ever even been there? Do you live in a daze? Or are you just on the wrong BBS? Next time you are there you should take a look. The computer in the guard house stores pictures. Everyone who comes in gets checked. Your *voice* sounds sarcastic and know-it-all, even though you happen to be wrong about some very basic things. (While come to think of it, accusing others of what you yourself seem to do). Wonder of wonders a SYDA yoga principle of life holds up! So that's why they call it ancient teachings! Mr. know-it-all, please get your facts straight 'cause you're embarassing the Ashram. The computer in the guard house is definitely not old. Neither is hardly anything else in the whole Ashram. The answers\apologies emanating from the Ashram are much better, more polished, than yours. Maybe you should just let them do it. I'm glad they finally started responding. For awhile I thought there was noone home there. It's nice to know some of those protecting the Ashram can write intelligently. And by the way, not only do they have a computer in the guard house, which can store pictures. They also have a computer that can digitally remove Nityananda Mahamandeleshwar from any archived photo of Gurumayi. It's not that big of a deal with todays technology. Not that they'd ever need to use it. Not with devotees like you. Seriously, I do want to say I am sorry because I don't want to be sarcastic with you. Personal message to you: Check out what you know. I have. It's worth it. P.S. Your not getting points with the Ashram (I don't believe) for your so obvious incorrect postings. Subj: Re:Photos Date: 95-09-21 10:04:13 EDT From: Lintillent Dear Anon., When I mentioned responses from the Ashram I meant the defenses recently posted here on this board. I have been following this board for at least 6 months and I have recently noticed a substantial improvement in the messages posted here in support of the Ashram. I believe this is because the administration there (Gurumayi), is taking this board seriously instead of pretending to ignore it, and is putting better minds to the task of respnding to whatever is going on here. Check the messages. Whatever you see there is it. About the Ashram, I have heard from 2 or 3 people who are "fixed-up devotees" there, ( to borrow a phrase used by Vaisnavas here in U.S.,"fixed-up" meaning in good standing), and people are not encouraged to mention the subject, whichever one it is. And there is no official Ashram position on the contents of the article in the New Yorker nor the Open Letters etc etc.. Needless to say? Did you expect any different? After posting the article last night, I really couldn't sleep. I'm not that 'big a fish' for them to hurt. However, I did toy with the idea of losing my anonymity. Then they could personally discredit me and run a smear campaign as usual, but at least then I wouldn't have to fear for my life. If they kill me now noone would know cause I've been anon. However, Ashram beware. If you do kill me, or I somehow end up dead, I have friends who will beat the bushes about it for a long time. They know my postition, and that I've been posting here, and if anything happens to me they won't let it go. My friend, a first-person eyewitness, will soon post a message here that will maybe put a context to my perhaps seeming paranoia. As the author of the NY article said to my ears (ear witness) the other day, "There's a lot of paranoia floating around this whole story....And with very good reason." This morning was the first time I have been able to cry about Baba's double life. I've always wondered why I have been unable to cry about it or have been seemingly emotionless and not caring. I'm crying right now too. It's funny. Perhaps the mind can never know the heart. Because I'm not exactly sure why I am choosing this time to cry either. Nor do I know why I never cried before. For all of you who are perhaps going through the intial phases of finding out. It has taken me many years to be able to cry about it. So don't get 'down' on yourself if you don't respond in, what one would assume to be, a 'normal' way at first. It's takes a while. Those who have been there know. Lis Harris made an interesting question. Why were the followers at Kirpalu, when confronted with the same information, able to face it, adjust to it, basically retire the Guru, but continue to practice and teach their yoga together as a community of seekers? They kept the place intact. And Siddha Yoga was not? My answer was that in SYDA yoga the guru is central and the path basically doesn't exist without guru worship and, at least int the past, guru identification. She said she believed it was because there, at Kirpalu, people actually believed in and practiced the teaching. Took the teaching to "See God in Oneself" seriously. So that when this happened, the devotees themselves were capable of taking over. To: Lintillent From: E2233 Dear Lintillent: Thanks for your posts. When we first dare to speak out about corruption and abuse in the ashram, we have to work our way through a lot of phobia that's been drummed into us. It makes you realize how much Gurumayi controls people by making them afraid. After you've spoken out for a while, you work through the terrible fear, the rage, and the grief; finally, you feel strong and solid because you're not lying to yourself any more, and you're able to speak the truth in a way that feels like the greatest spiritual awakening you ever had; better than the magical one that got you into this thing in the first place. It takes a while, though, so hang in. Eventually, we will even stop having to be anonymous; the open letters (1981 and 1995) are circulating all around the world now, via the Internet, and the incredibly sad truth about SYDA will be common knowledge throughout the yoga/guru/spirituality movement. As for why can't SYDA people have the courage and integrity of the folks at Kripalu? I guess Amrit Desai must not have had the power to terrorize people that Gurumayi (and of course George Afif, and Baba) has. But we know that truth is stronger than lies, and love is stronger than fear. If only Gurumayi could have dared to tell the whole truth, and been accountable for her lies and her abuse in her ashram, past and present. But it's been too long coming, and it's too late now. I share your sorrow and I wish you well. Subj: Re:Photos Date: 95-09-21 10:04:13 EDT From: Lintillent Dear Anon., When I mentioned responses from the Ashram I meant the defenses recently posted here on this board. I have been following this board for at least 6 months and I have recently noticed a substantial improvement in the messages posted here in support of the Ashram. I believe this is because the administration there (Gurumayi), is taking this board seriously instead of pretending to ignore it, and is putting better minds to the task of respnding to whatever is going on here. Check the messages. Whatever you see there is it. About the Ashram, I have heard from 2 or 3 people who are "fixed-up devotees" there, ( to borrow a phrase used by Vaisnavas here in U.S.,"fixed-up" meaning in good standing), and people are not encouraged to mention the subject, whichever one it is. And there is no official Ashram position on the contents of the article in the New Yorker nor the Open Letters etc etc.. Needless to say? Did you expect any different? After posting the article last night, I really couldn't sleep. I'm not that 'big a fish' for them to hurt. However, I did toy with the idea of losing my anonymity. Then they could personally discredit me and run a smear campaign as usual, but at least then I wouldn't have to fear for my life. If they kill me now noone would know cause I've been anon. However, Ashram beware. If you do kill me, or I somehow end up dead, I have friends who will beat the bushes about it for a long time. They know my postition, and that I've been posting here, and if anything happens to me they won't let it go. My friend, a first-person eyewitness, will soon post a message here that will maybe put a context to my perhaps seeming paranoia. As the author of the NY article said to my ears (ear witness) the other day, "There's a lot of paranoia floating around this whole story....And with very good reason." This morning was the first time I have been able to cry about Baba's double life. I've always wondered why I have been unable to cry about it or have been seemingly emotionless and not caring. I'm crying right now too. It's funny. Perhaps the mind can never know the heart. Because I'm not exactly sure why I am choosing this time to cry either. Nor do I know why I never cried before. For all of you who are perhaps going through the intial phases of finding out. It has taken me many years to be able to cry about it. So don't get 'down' on yourself if you don't respond in, what one would assume to be, a 'normal' way at first. It's takes a while. Those who have been there know. Lis Harris made an interesting question. Why were the followers at Kirpalu, when confronted with the same information, able to face it, adjust to it, basically retire the Guru, but continue to practice and teach their yoga together as a community of seekers? They kept the place intact. And Siddha Yoga was not? My answer was that in SYDA yoga the guru is central and the path basically doesn't exist without guru worship and, at least int the past, guru identification. She said she believed it was because there, at Kirpalu, people actually believed in and practiced the teaching. Took the teaching to "See God in Oneself" seriously. So that when this happened, the devotees themselves were capable of taking over. Subj: Re:Allegations (part 2 of 2) Date: 95-09-23 09:16:59 EDT From: ORamAgam I'm telling you. A person who has not registered must go to that shack each time they visit the ashram and get their picture taken or get a copy of their picture printed out of the computer for them to wear inside. People cannot just walk in there. People who register get their pictures taken. Everyone must wear a picture I.D. I've seen 'tourists', people who want to visit the ashram and find out what is going on, turned away, by the security guard in that shack. Walk over and walk into that 'shack' next time and see the computer and the camera etc. You've obviously never been inside there. You've seen the cameras that take pictures of people at the registration desk, I assume, because you have been able to ride the shuttle bus. The people who work security are shown pictures of all the people who are not allowed in the ashram. Don't kid yourself about security there, it can be very tight. Also check out the 'hidden cameras', both in Amrit and the upper lobby in the main ashram building and in the meditation hall. You can see them if you look. I've heard long time staff people attest to microphones. One such close friend of mine, a staff member, left after many years because of an incident involving what he knew to be a microphone. It's perhaps unimportant to you since you are a loyal follower but it's good information to have 'just in case'. You're right that I haven't listened to all of Gurumayi's lectures in the past several years. (But I have to quite a few!) Not either because I have been visiting Pine Bush too much. As far as I'm concerned Nityananda M. also does not give lectures at all comparable to those of S. Muktananda. However, I've listened to a good number of Gurumayi's lectures. She doesn't put the emphasis and repitition on 'realization' that Baba did. (Find some of his taped lectures, *if you can*. It's very worth it.) Much of the emphasis in her lectures in on sadhana. The teaching that I mentioned, (and you responded to by saying she does teach, that I have never heard her teach), is something that Baba *repeated* all the time. Every night at times. For many years I heard every single one of Gurumayi's talks (which is not as many as it sounds like.). I never heard her talk much about the 'Self'. Nothing compared to what Baba did. Anyway, maybe her Swami-s teach what you say. Or other of her teachers. Subj: Re:Allegations (part 2 of 2) Date: 95-09-23 12:37:08 EDT From: An302429 The computer photo Orwellian/Nixonian trip is new, but for years the Registrar's List has been kept by Security and Registration and the Managers as a means of identifying and keeping out unwanted people. These included anyone who had acted crazy; and also anyone known to associate with Gurumayi's brother. Interesting that SYDA insiders justify their almost 10 years of harassment of Niytananda, now the Mahamandeleshwar of the Saraswati Order of Monks in India, by saying that he got his girlfriend pregnant and she had an abortion (which happens to have been true). Therefore he is a bad man and those who associate with him are bad, according to SYDA. I don't associate with him because I don't like him and never did; I was involved in numerous efforts at harassing him myself. I regret that now, because it was against all the values and ideals that have meaning to me, which I abandoned to gain Gurumayi's favor and show my loyalty to her. The campaign to harass, threaten, intimidate and hurt him was completely endorsed by Gurumayi, but it was especially important to George Afif. He hated Nityananda because Nityananda called George a rapist, after the incident between George and the 16 year old girl in Oakland. Since George had also seduced and/or harassed scores of other young women, some of them as young as 14; and since it was also rumored that he and Gurumayi were lovers, George particularly hated Nityananda, engineered his dethroning in a very violent manner, and continued to oversee his harassment for many years. This way, he felt he could control whatever damage Nitynanada could do to himself and Gurumayi. Does this sound like a spritiual path to you, or like Melrose Place? People with great power, even the power to give Shaktipat, can at the same time be tremendously corrupt, and that is clearly the case here. Things come full circle, too. Catherine Parrish, a high up in the Werner Erhard group of organizations (the Hunger Project in particular) is now Gurumayi's right hand person, practically replacing George Afif, so I'm told. It's no surprise that Erhard brought Muktananda to the west. These are both men who are now accused of incest: Erhard by his daughters, and Muktananda by the young women who thought of him as a divine father, or Baba. People who follow gurus with deep personality splits are not likely, in my opinion and experience, to find lasting integration, healing or wholeness in their own lives as a result of their devotion to these fraudulent people. You attain what they've attained -- in the case of the SYDA guru, that means dishonesty, cowardice, cruelty, and all the skills of a parasite. Subj: Re: The Article Date: 95-09-23 15:47:42 EDT From: Anon110166 I HAVE spoken, at length, to the author of the New Yorker article, and to several of those cited therein. The depth of research and detail is substantial. Everything was verified, and cross-verified. I was told by one of the people at The New Yorker that, after a proof copy of the article was submitted to SYDA, that lawyers descended on them AS NEVER BEFORE. I was told that The New Yorker was "lawyered down" some 5 additional pages of text - which contained more damaging, yet corroborated, information. I was also told that the people at The New Yorker are, to this day, still rankled by the experience of dealing with SYDA. Theirs is the TRULY sacred responsibility, as clearly conceptualized in the Constitution, of protecting, with information, all of those whom are preyed upon by the self-serving. I was also told that the author has had, and needed, bodyguards, ever since the publication. What's that all about, if SYDA is so blameless. I was in the "thick" of things, when the article was published. I was present for a series of damage-control calls, from the swamis. The line was simple: No need to read the article, it is full of lies, all propogated by Nityananda, and his followers. In fact, Nityananda seems to be responsible for everything bad, ever associated with the entire lineage... Lucky they've got him. If they didn't, they'd need to invent him. I have seen it said elsewhere, but it deserves to be restated: If the claims of the article were insupportable, The New Yorker would be up to its eyeballs in law suits -- and they are not. There is no shortage of resource or sympathetic legal support within SYDA, only a shortage of contravening truth. Subj: Re:Sara Date: 95-09-26 12:36:46 EDT From: TheCatmen Whether Hola's death was auspicious or not, it WAS still covered up. I knew of both the truth AND the cover-up. Living in the ashram, I was living in So Fallsburg at the time, everyone knew someone who was in India. We got messages that traveled faster than the anestetized version of the story that was later relaesed for "public" consumption. I too was told point blank how it happened. And I saw how others were told another official story. This was one of many instances of cover-up that happened. It was common knowledge that Nityananda was giving intensives near-by So Fallsburg at around the same time as Hola's death. It was also known that people went there from the Ashram to protest and throw rocks. I was one of the people who was asked to go and participate in "protecting" GM's reign as queen guru. I went, I saw, I participated. I walked for hours up and down the road outside the house where the intensive was to be held. We intimidated the hell out of those people. It was really WRONG to do it. I wouldn't have even participated had I known more about the situation. I was pretty new and didn't even know who Nityananda really was. And, I thought I was being a GOOd sevite. I was earning brownie points in the sick system of gaining the Guru's approval. It was one of many secrets that I was supposed to keep. You say that we sound bitter. If you were constantly asked to rearrange the truth and really mess around in your head your concepts of integrity, you'd be pissed too. Unless you have no integrity. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- THIS ONE NEVER APPEARED ON AOL. (An exactly transcribed excerpt from Illustrated Weekly of India, January 19, 1986) HEADING: "I WAS PROMISED FIVE LAKHS OF RUPEES TO KILL NITYANANDA" Ilyas Khan speaks to Sailesh Kottary about an offer he did refuse Ilyas Khan is a handyman at the Ganeshpuri ashram and has been in its service since the last two and a half years. In mid November, Khan was reportedly made an offer by George Afif to murder Nityananda on payment of Rs 5 lakhs. The Weekly learnt of this offer just while going to press and brought it to the notice of the police authorities living in Bombay who are investigating the matter. In Khan's own words: "It was around 11 O'Clock at night and George Afif entered my room which I shared with another driver. He sent him out of the room and spoke to me for about 10 minutes. We were all alone. George told me that we have a special affinity to each other as we were both Muslims. He told me that I could rise to great heights in the organisation if I would follow certain orders." "He then showed me a revolver in his pocket and asked me to kill Nityananda. 'I will give you five lakhs of rupees, which is in my room. I will also give you any car that you want. But you will have to kill Nityananda to earn this," said Afif remembers Khan. According to Khan, Afif selected him because he was always with Nityananda. Khan did not take up the offer. He pleaded that he was unwell. At which point Khan told him that they should put the plan into action later. Khan waited for two days trying to reach Nityananda privately. He only managed it on the third day when he warned him that plans were afoot to physically harm Nityananda. "Nityananda merely smiled," says Khan. Inexplicably, Khan kept silent about the offer. He even went to Goa in end November to track Nityananda in an expedition financed by Nityananda's family. But he never revealed it even to them. Finally, on Saturday, January 4, Khan mentioned the incident casually to a friend of his, Ashok Gaikar. Gaikar, also a handyman of Nityananda, immediately contacted the family who contacted the Weekly.