***These posts are a continuation of part 1, and take up the discussion of SYDA that began on America ONline in August, 1995, after the publication there of an Open Letter About SYDA. If you have not read the 2 Open Letters about SYDA, one from 1995 and the other from 1981, please download these letters first, and also read the aol1.txt file before reading this one. Not all the posts that appeared are reprinted here, and most of the posts express criticism, satire and dissent about SYDA. Subj: Open Letters Date: 96-02-16 06:57:51 EST From: Dissent222 To those who are not aware, there are numerous former devotees of Siddha Yoga who have left because of extensive and ongoing deception, corruption and abuse in the organization and amongst its teachers and leaders, including Muktananda and Gurumayi. The Hinduism File Library contains An Open Letter About SYDA Yoga, and a 1981 Open Letter about SYDA, as well as a Critical SYDA Bibliography. Also, and edited version of a debate about SYDA on AOL is available, called AOL - SYDA Discussion 8/95. Please download these files and read them. Also, the World Wide Web has a page which archives an edited version of the discussion that took place on AOL about these Open Letters. The Address is: http://www.ex-cult.org/Groups/SYDA-Yoga/ Please read this material and be informed. You may address comments to: an302429@anon.pen Date: 96-02-05 21:22:11 EST From: Dissent222 The current head of the Saraswati order of monks is Gurumayi's brother Swami Nityananda, who is the Mahamandeleshwar of the Saraswati Order. This is the brother that she personally directed a campaign of harrassment and threats against for the last 7 years. Philosphical debate is not taught in SYDA because if anyone there had authentic thoughts that were not the product of mind control techniques, battering, intimidation and totalitarian propaganda, someone might see that the Empress Gurumayi is completely without clothes, let alone morals, values or ethics. Subj: Re:Shankaracharya and SYDA Date: 96-02-06 11:44:50 EST From: Paul429283 dissent i dunt no how u can say guru is not perfect and has no clothe on because she is and i give her all my money that is extra and thank her every day for what she give me. when she ask for money i give it like everyne does. u are not spiritualy develuped enuf to see how perrrrfect she is so u have too say nasty things to feel good. i am ahppy i give her money and think she is pretty also. my whole life is thinking how perfect she is and so i feel good. u shoudl think how pretty she is and u feel good too. everyone at the asrm thinks like me so we are right and yu rare wrong. we are spiritualy advanced souls.people who say bad things are fallen. we learn this truth at ashrm. ibeen in there long time and say she is not naked empror but she has nice clothes on. everone here agrees with me exceptt fallen people so go away. buy intensive and u will understand!!!! thank you . Subj: Robert193 Date: 96-02-16 21:21:50 EST From: MDSNMAN Although there were several women who had an ongoing sexual relationship with Nityananda when he was co-Guru in Siddha Yoga, Gurumayi singled out Hemananda and had her physically beaten. George and a few other siddha-sadists participated. Frank and Jeannie were witnesses (they were living next door to Hemananda at the time). But like all true servants of the one truth, they looked the other way. Subj: Re:MDSNMAN Date: 96-02-17 10:39:23 EST From: Robert193 Thanks, re: Hemananda. I'm still curious about bulimia. GM is an extremely self-controlled person. This is obvious and publicly observable. What may not be publicly observable is the flip side of self-control which is indulging, binging, etc. It's an interesting question. She certainly has two sides to her personality/ego/individuality. BTW, regarding Hola, this incident really isn't a bad reflection on GM, except how she dealt with Hola's friends after the incident. (She told several of them to leave.) But Hola's death itself was just a freak thing. Hola was there at a staff darshan and GM was asking various people questions and they were answering her. Then she asked Hola who stood up, gave a short answer, and then dropped dead without warning. She must have had a heart attack or something because she died instantly, never regaining consciousness. The bizzare thing about the incident was that it happened right in front of GM. There is one thing interesting about the Hola affair: The silly pretense that Hola died in the car on the way to the hospital, rather than in the ashram. The reason for this silliness: There was a statement that Baba once made that no one should be born or die in the ashram. So when Hola died in the ashram, GM instructed everyone to pretend that the death didn't happen there. But GM knew it did, and most of us who were in the ashram at the time knew it did, so why all the pretense? Who was she trying to fool and why? This is a very interesting question. The way I've come to understand it is this: Siddha Yoga (and GM) are very much caught up in superficial appearances. It was hard for me to believe this because it's the opposite of what they teach. But it is true. It was very important for her to create the superficial appearance of Baba's word being fulfilled. There is a pathetic shallowness and desperation behind such facades, whether they occur in "the world" or in an ashram. This incident is typical of something which occurs repeatedly in Siddha Yoga. A big gesture is used to cover up a lower motive or attitude. In Hola's case the big gesture was the yagna they held for her afterwards. The lower motive was the charade of having her "die" in the car (being attached to a false appearance) rather than in the ashram, and also sending her friends packing. So GM, with all the inner illumination she obviously has attained, is still lost in appearances, or feels compelled beyond her control to create a facade. And the cost of that is the unravelling of SYDA which appears to be happening (maybe slowly, but gaining momentum). Subj: Looking for Doramir Date: 96-02-18 07:46:17 EST From: Dissent222 Doramir can be reached at: an302429@anon.penet.fi More than simply making sure Baba's words about it being inauspicious to die in the ashram come true, Gurumayi lied about Hola's death to protect herself from being blamed for it. She does nothing without taking countermeasures to make sure someone else and not she will ultimately be held accountable. She sets each and every syda policy there is - including discourage people with HIV from coming to the ashram and mistreat them if they do come; have someone physically beaten; illegally smuggle money and goods out of the country; bug someone's room with a hidden microphone; get someone's friends to shun them; lie about someone's death; tear apart and destroy the countryside and the water system; allow young women to be sexually abused and demand that they keep it all a secret -- the list is endless. But she always makes sure, and her loyal staff know just how to play the game, that someone else claims that it was their idea, not Gurumayi's. Gurumayi is so good at being a sadistic con-man because she is also a coward. Many devotees come to know how totalistic GM is and how completely and thoroughly she runs everyone and everything in the ashram. Her control over people is such, however, that they ignore her cruelty and selfishness, and impute inscrutable divine motives to all her paranoid delusions. In other words, they play the perfect submissive masochist to her dominating sadist. You've read all the cult propaganda from syda, like Ram Butler's Correspondence Course. Anyone ever ask Ram what he thinks about adultery? It's a subject he actually knows something about. Just to round things out, why not read the professional literature about destructive cults - The Wrong Way Home (Deikman), Captive Hearts, Captive Minds (Tobias), Recovery From Cults (Langone). Gurumayi's mission is to gain wealth and power for herself by gaining control of people she can exploit. She is just another con-man. Open your eyes and see. Subj: "in my experience . . . " Date: 96-02-18 09:17:13 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, one reason the deluded won't open their eyes (as Dissent222 requests) is that they are sneaky and deceptive themselves. The first sign of sneaky status is when SYDAites (present and former) talk about their "inner awareness" when the going gets rough. (--Thus reinforcing their perception of a dualism between inner and outer realms, a dualism yoga is intended to dispel.) They say things like <> If someone wants to feel grateful about certain things, fine--I would never advocate black-and-white mentality (even if their guru does, for example, in her public villainization of her own brother, Nityananda Jr.). But it is a "no-brainer" to list some problems with the SYDA way of rationalizing away abuses. My points, having to do with the sociopathy of knee-jerk "experience-believers," are these: 1. these people hiding behind the "my experience is . . . " line absolutely won't come clean and call a spade a spade. In the thousands of pages on this AOL board, few come clean. Their lips cannot form the words. They beat around the bush, hurling gobs of solipsistic goo with every step. That is why I say they are sneaky and deceptive. 2. they use the idea of "whatever I think is true, is true" to rationalize self-serving behavior in their real lives. When your mental training is finding ways to explain away SYDA to yourselves and others, you are pretty well-oiled to become a trickster yourself. 3. they don't realize that using subjective sensations to explain away abuses is exactly what marks them as a SYDA product (or facsimile thereof). Their subjective "I feel, therefore it is" point of view is an obvious and embarrasing sign of mental conditioning--even when they insist they aren't disciples, and have moved on to a "personal" awareness. 4. The sneaky and deceptive disciples didn't start out that way. That is why people should be more concerned with examining the qualifications and "message" of the guru, rather than those of the ex-disciples. Underneath their mantle of brainwashing, the SYDA-stooges are probably quite different people. 5. My guess is neither guru nor most disciples see anything "sneaky" about their rationalizations. In this respect they are less self-aware than your average con-man. Subj: Re:Disent 222 Date: 96-02-18 16:34:06 EST From: Robert193 Thanks 222. I appreciate your sharp eye. But there's something more interesting going on in SY than just deception of devotees and lust for power and money. Much of the anger on this board can be traced back to being taken, being deceived, being victimized, etc. There is ample truth in that, of course, but it is my belief that these low motives coexist in GM and the SY leaders (including Ram B.) with a kind of sincere belief that they're doing the right thing, that they are somehow serving the devotees in the best way they can by doing all their shenannigans, and all the ruthless, deceitful things they do. Here's the thing: They deceived a lot of really decent people, but they also deceive themselves. Ram is lost in his own web which he has spun in the name of truth, love and freedom. This may be a little hard to believe if you have been hurt by his cultic correspondence course, but I am certain that it is true. If you can believe that, you can take the next step and see that GM is in the same fascinating delusion. She does many loving things and many wicked things and she is lost in her own maya of being a guru. The point is she *is* something, she subscribes her identity to being *something* and she too is deceived by her own myth, by her own deception. I am sure this is true. If it were so simple as to say that these are a bunch of unscrupulous people with ugly motives, that would be tragic, but not all that interesting. Those of us who swallowed the lie along with the light would just rebel, get angry, reclaim our valued individualaties, and move on. But it isn't that simple. GM and her chief people are lost in a kind of confusion that is very fascinating. Not that we should continue to drink from a stream after the toxins in that stream have made us sick. But this is a very remarkable thing which Baba created and GM has epxanded. I'm no apologist, just a former follower who is still amazed and fascinated by the maya which they created all in the name of bestowing the truth and God's blessing on us. Surely we must pity these people (and *marvel* at them too) as we thank God we have become free from their very sticky webs of illusion. It is an amazing world, isn't it? Subj: Re:Dissent 222 Date: 96-02-18 19:14:18 EST From: Dissent222 I think Gurumayi is certainly trapped in her own web, as are others, -- as I was when I lied to myself and others in the experience talks I gave, and in conversations I had, extolling GM's praises, protecting and defending her. I knew I was lying and I believed my lies, with all sincerity, because GM could not be held to any merely human standard of truthfulness, nor did I as her protector and defender need to concern myself with a lie told on her behalf. Here's a relevant quote from Nietzche: "Men believe in the truth of all that is seen to be strongly believed. In all great decievers, a remarkable process is at work to which they owe their power. In the very act of deception with all its preparations - the dreadful voice, the expression, the gestures - they are overcome by their belief in themselves, and it is this belief which then speaks so persuasively, so miracle-like to the audience. Not only does he communicate that to the audience but the audeince returns it to him and strengthens his belief." In other words, what is important is not so much to believe, but to be seen to believe. The appearance of belief counts for more than the sincerity of belief. In the process of acting, the actor comes to believe his own act. The mesmerist mesmerizes herself. And the audience that buys it just gives more conviction to the actor. Anyway, I don't like to spend too much time figuring GM out - I've got better things to do. But it's fun now and then to tell the truth out loud and declare my freedom. Subj: Re:Dissent 222 Date: 96-02-18 21:07:54 EST From: Robert193 Yes, that's excellent! And that's why this guru/ashram/cult/ thing is so fascinating. It is purportedly about going beyond illusion. And yet deep inside this thing what you see is a desperate need to create illusion.. The need to create appearances is so great in SY that entire sadhanas become organized around appearance -- to oneself and to others. And so many people in the ashram get lost in that. They are indeed very much spiritually correct (according to siddha yoga standards) but they have become lost in illusion and appearance. People become very confused about who they are and what they think. They become lost in the name of self awareness or self knowledge, and they declare their state to be spiritual attainment. One lesson I have learned over the years is to be very cautious about crusaders. Often the very thing which they crusade against lies unrecognized within themselves. I have seen this many times and I thought I understood it. And yet I was fooled by these gurus crusading against ignorance, who declared that they had become perfect, the highest human attainment. I really resisted recognizing that these people had big problems regarding appearances, self honesty, and simple self acceptance. It is true, though. Anyhow there is no way they could convince so many people that this might at least *might* be true, unless they themselves believed it, or half believed it, which is probably closer to the truth. You say you don't like to speculate about their psychologies, but it is good to do this. It is freeing in a way. Not only did *you* get fooled by Baba, but Ram B. did too, and Gurumayi did too, and even high ranking Brahmin priests. Even Baba got fooled by Baba. The same goes for his glorious successor. So it is a little easier to have some self respect and maintain you dignity when you look at these things. When you gave those brainwashed experience talks, you didn't compromise yourself one fraction as much as she does when she tells her lies day in and day out. I would bet that she half believes most of her own lies. What a pitiful life. No wonder she requires so much opulence and luxury. All these things just serve to buoy her up and keep her drunk on the illusion of her perfection. Of course she requires all those things. Of course she has to manipulate everything. She must do everything to maintain the illusion for both her devotees and herself. You shouldn't feel bad. You got away easy. Look at all the true believers who will go down with the ship. I think it's very good to look at these things. It is a great experience to pass through such a thing and come out unscathed. I think it is even greater if we try to understand this thing we have passed through. Subj: Larry, ethics & missing money Date: 96-02-19 10:18:48 EST From: Howie Sm Dear Larry, Your points are well taken, and having read your posts I feel we agree on much even if our emphases and rhetorical styles differ. One small quibble: In calling me anti-subjective, you misunderstand. As a pro-yoga person, I by no means consider subjectivism and experience-based thought meaningless. Rather the opposite. We both understand that SYDA views experience as a kind of untainted primitive from which knowledge stems. In the abstract, this concept is fine, and there is a long philosophical tradition which recognizes it. I acknowledge it without qualification. I'll go further--If the SYDA ship was ship-shape, I would be happy to join everyone in their obsession with epistemology and metaphysics. But the ship is not ship-shape. Yoga epistemology and metaphysics are used as a smoke screen behind which ugly motivations squirm about (as Robert and Dissent have outlined). So though I acknowledge yogic subjectivism, I nonetheless say it is high time that we all redirect our attention to the atrophied limb of the SYDA body--ethics. It's time to shift attention to ethics. Let's look at how platitudes translate into behaviors, how high-falutin' dogma becomes a rationale for misconduct. For example, here is an ethical question: "Is SYDA collecting money under false pretenses, e.g., the defunct Boston ashram fund?" Just because I ask questions like this does not mean I am challenging philosophical subjectivism. To accuse me of that is to put words into my mouth. My point is, a subjective stance should not be the foundation of philosophy of denial; it should not be a way of rationalizing participation in an unethical system. Yogic truisms were not invented for the purpose of discrediting those who ask common-sensical ethical questions. On this I'm sure we both agree. Subj: Larry, and allegations Date: 96-02-19 21:13:49 EST From: Howie Sm Dear Larry, You say <<>> I agree that there is an emphasis on allegations. That is unfortunate, for, to my mind at least, the allegations are the least interesting component of the travestization of yoga seen in SYDA. (This is not to say that I condone the abuses, of course.) Why their emphasis on allegations? In my perception, some of the critics seem to be operating under the assumption that allegations are the best tool for piercing the thick hide of SYDA brainwashing. Based on the reactions they have gotten, it seems that even the voicing of allegations is only of limited success in the piercing of thick, mind-controlled hides. If those hides weren't so thick, there would be more reform by now. For goodness sakes, how much "abuse" do people have to hear and see and read about and discuss before they drop the denial trip? Frankly, your reference to her attainment possibly not being "100%" is so euphemistic that it has the odor of denial to it. (If I'm off-base here, of course let me know.) Surely you would agree that the idea of her "attainment," 100% or otherwise, is the bathwater to be discarded and not the baby (to use your cliche). I bring up your euphemistic tone to make a point about some of the SYDA critics online--I think it is the euphemizing tone of SYDA apologists that makes SYDA critics focus on allegations. One problem about critics focusing on allegations is, if they get too specific about personal recollections, the SYDA stooges might "triangulate" on their positions. The critics' anonymity limits their ability to provide full eyewitness accounts. I think these dissenters could say a whole lot more if their audience was more sympathetic and less thick-hided, and if they didn't have to worry about stooges hunting them down. Subj: About being angry Date: 96-02-20 07:05:57 EST From: Dissent222 Some of the people who leave syda say they leave with everything all "resolved" within themselves, feeling "free" of anger. I will never be free of the anger I have toward Guruamyi, Baba and SYDA, for betraying me, and for the specific and protracted abuse I receieved directly from Gurumayi. I am angry about this 3 years after leaving, and I will always be. I spent more than 10 years of my life being swindled and deceived in syda, and the struggle to recover these lost years, emotionally, financially, and spiritually, has been enormous. It is a struggle I am succeeding with, slowly, step by step, using my own skills and talents and the support and love of the few friends I still have left who I didn't alienate because of living in the ashram for 10 years. Maybe others who did not become as dependent as I did in syda who later left are able to be more appreciative of what they got there. I am not. Was my dependency my fault? It was my mistake, and it was also skillfully fostered by Gurumayi. I'm paying for my mistake every day. Gurumayi isn't paying nearly enough, in my opinion. The way I have resolved things and become free is to express my anger. Anger (and ambivalence) are very uncomfortable for many people. They are meant to be abolished by mantra repetition, chanting, seva, and complete dependency on the guru. I no longer consider it desirable to abolish feelings and parts of myself. I consider "resolution" to mean the ability to feel a wide range of feelings, including anger and ambivalence; and to attempt to both contain and express these emotions appropriately, to one's self and others. This is exactly what is forbidden in Gurumayi's dictatorship, and this repression is why so many of her managers and swamis are so frequently ill, with eating disorders, depression, hypochondriacal conditions, anxiety, and more. So while I appreciate the voices of other dissenters here, I wonder why some seem to need to soothe, make things nice, and in a sense patronize those who they feel have not attained their higher state? Subj: Dissent222 & SYDA prattle Date: 96-02-20 08:39:11 EST From: Howie Sm Dissent222, You write <<>> A couple of ideas on this--First, a SAMPLE OF SOOTHING PRATTLE: <<< "After I chanted, I felt good, THEREFORE I have no more doubts, and realize that the New Yorker article is not relevant to my reality, just like Ram Butler tells me. If only those dissenters were spiritually-oriented, they would understand that being a Hitler-stooge can be a learning experience, if you are high enough to grasp the subtle truth of it. Oops--there goes my signal watch. Time to go practice the Sieg Heil arm gesture that is now the fad kriya in group chanting at the ashram. Ah, isn't life orderly!">>> 1. PLAYING GURU. A patronizing tone is part of the "playing guru" routine--the aping the guru shtick that many SYDAites internalize early on. SYDA's traveling advice-givers are fortunately clogged up enough that they cannot smell their own embarrassing aroma (though everyone else can). A license to have a superiority complex is one of the selling points of SYDA (ostentatious shows of humility are very much part of this superiority complex, needless to say.) Boss-woman has written the book on the patronizing tone. "And thank you very much for your very nice question." 2. NUMBING ONE'S CRITICAL FACULTIES. Making all things nice and sugary for others is an exercise in rationalization. If they stop making those "cooing" sounds, they'll hear their inner voice say--"You've been had." That's why they've got to keep up the mental Brownian motion. 3. PHOBIC RITUALS. Just like a compulsive person who has to wash their hands incessantly to ward of phobic reactions, the inner prattle must be maintained inside and out. It's bothersome to be within earshot of it, but we don't have it too bad--just think if we were one of their kids, or parents! (Fortunately, kids are better at shrugging off "weird" parents than some give them credit for.) Indeed, chanting and "guided" meditation are other tools for warding off the troublesome inner voices of conscience and common-sense. 4. INABILITY TO DISCUSS THE PHILOSOPHY OF POSITIVE THINKING EXCEPT IN THE CONTEXT OF A SYDA-DEPENDENT STANCE. What these folks can't realize is that everyone (except perhaps an institutionalized moron or two) grasps the philosophy of positive thinking--who could miss it, it has absolutely saturated pop culture! Their need to "remind" everyone of how to see the bright side of things WITH REGARD TO SYDA is a defense mechanism so deeply lodged that I sincerely believe they don't recognize it as such. Note that their "positive" outlook is always firmly attached to and framed in terms of the SYDA thought-system. Subj: To Larry. 1 of 2 Date: 96-02-19 18:01:06 EST From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 2 Dear Larry, Thanks for your response. Larry, you write <> There have been many attempts at direct communication with the "top" in SYDA. As I'm sure you know, people who touch on uncomfortable issues are warned and/or ejected from the ashram. This includes people "at the top," who suggest the wrong things. In some cases there is follow-up damage control--discrediting of the individual ejected (sometimes through whisper campaigns), and even threats, sometimes veiled, sometimes not. In short, no one has yet been able to find a way to make the top-down approach work. Now that incoming mail is being routinely burned, the lines of communication have gone from ridiculous to absurd. To many, the gag-order policy is the best evidence for assessing the motivations behind the organization. SEE PART 2 Subj: To Larry. 2 of 2 Date: 96-02-19 18:03:39 EST From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 2 Dear Larry, you write <> If you could expand on this, I would appreciate it. A disagreement between what is hurtful and what is healing seems to be at the root of much of the banter in this chat area. In general, the dissenters strike me as sincere in believing that their point of view might save others from hurt. So what is hurtful, it seems, is exactly what is being debated here on AOL. To take as a premise that dissenters' have hurtful intentions is to miss the point. (I recognize that you aren't making this assumption, but others, such as Paul, seem to have.) The chatter on this AOL board is a simple case of information and opinion exchange, the kind that just cannot happen under the authorized SYDA roof. As Kai has correctly pointed out, SYDA thrives even as it metamorphosizes, and in my view will continue to thrive (for a while at least)--for a mixture of reasons, not all of them benign. Given the bustling present state of the organization, it seems unclear that the noise made by a few shadowy outsiders is a cause of anything, hurtful or otherwise, at the institutional level. Larry, I'll get to the point now. The chatter on this board is more of an effect than a cause. If SYDA experiences problems in the future, they will be of its own making. SYDA is creating its own future. The messages here, both pro and con, are merely a "trace" of a SYDA effect, produced by SYDA itself--that is, by how Gurumayi treats people. One should not overestimate the extent to which the lifecycle of SYDA, and the perception of its followers, is a function of the actions of people outside of SYDA--including SYDA critics on AOL. Just as was the case with Rajneesh and Da Free John, SYDA has the might to mold its own destiny. Whether that destiny is bright or dismal depends precisely on how they respond to the issues raised on this board. The dissenters here are just a sample for an ex-SYDA population that is an order of magnitude larger than the present-day followers of SYDA (as simple arithmetic indicates). As time passes, there will be an accumulation of dissenting voices. Sevites who are used up and discarded will be the most vocal of these critics. It seems that for critics to speak out as they have (on AOL or elsewhere) is what one would expect, given their experience. What else but the sound of dissent is to be expected, given SYDA's treatment of disciples? This combination of growth, change, dissent, and decline is an inevitable part of the lifecycle of pop religious groups with problematic leadership. Perhaps with a radical change of policy, and some potent confessions from the top, SYDA's future might be brightened. Perhaps it is too late for such a reversal. Yogic culture, like nature, has a way of renewing itself. The spirit behind yoga will not be harmed by any of this. Yoga, and the experiences of yoga, will continue apace regardless. On this happy point I know both you and I agree! Which is precisely why all should boldly move forward with straightforwardness, without fear that straight talk is somehow injurious, hurtful, or inappropriate. It just isn't. Subj: Re:Kaiwahine Date: 96-02-19 19:29:18 EST From: Robert193 Hi Kai. Thanks for your response. >>Come on tour,to a talk,a program,an intensive and see for yourself by the numerous overflow rooms how Siddha Yoga is unravelling.lol and aloha,kai<< I actually said SYDA (not Siddha Yoga) is unravelling, and I think it is. SYDA is like a huge building supported by weak timbers. Many of the competent and capable people have already left and the exodus continues. An organization can survive that sort of thing only if it responds to the cause of the problem, if it successfully addresses why so many good, sincere, honorable long term devotees have left. Yes, I'm sure Gurumayi's tour is filled with light, love, and powerful inner experiences. But those things alone won't keep the strong, self-respecting honorable people in Siddha Yoga long enough for them to become part of the organizational structure of SYDA. Yes, many new people will come in because of the tour. But many won't stay unless there is a rock solid ground floor of morality and common decency in SYDA, in the ashrams, and around Gurumayi. All the light and warmth and inner experience at the programs and in darshan will fade dimly into memory when such people clearly see the duplicity and the ethical vacuum which surround Gurumayi. Why have such people left GM and why do they continue to leave? Not because they lacked meditation experiences -- they had plenty of them. Not because their hearts weren't opened and filled with love during darshan -- they were. They leave despite these things because at the core of their individualities they are grounded in a morality that they are not willing to discard. Do you think this is "wrong attachment" Kai? Do you think it is a mistake to maintain attachment to the part of our individuality that connects us to our Western spiritual heritige? It is only because we are all rooted in that heritage that we were willing to embrace what we saw when we first came to Siddha Yoga. No, that part of our individuality should not be renounced. Not for love, not for Gurumayi's attention, not for the inner lights. If those good and wondrous things come at the cost of that which roots us in our spiritual heritage we should walk away from them. We will see over time what happens to SYDA, to Siddha Yoga, and to Gurumayi. It's not necessary to bash Gurumayi, or to bash Siddha Yoga. We all came with our neediness and we all have received much. Only this is necessary: When we come face to face with the core of who we are as individuals we must decide how we are willing to engage ourselves in the world, including that part of the world which surrounds Gurumayi. Subj: Re:Kaiwahine and Robert Date: 96-02-19 20:33:48 EST From: Howie Sm Robert193, Thank you for the thoughtful post. Everything you say rings right. So true--the injuries SYDA feels do not come from without, but, rather, are self-inflicted. Boss-woman's paranoia about outsider talk and about the popularity of other gurus is just a symptom of terminal spiritual dementia. So true--one need not bash. One can simply buy some popcorn, take a seat, and watch the "Fall of the House of (philosophical and ethical) Mush-er." (I couldn't resist latching onto your architectural metaphor!) Let us hope that most stand clear of the falling debris. Subj: Re:LarryOm Date: 96-02-20 00:44:22 EST From: Robert193 Hi Larry, thanks for your thoughtful response to my posts. What makes the discussion on this board (and the sadhana of the understanding which it represents) so interesting is that it is not easy to see this thing clearly. You can look through one eye and see it all one way ("only your inner experience matters and we've all had profound inner experiences..."). Or you can look at it through the other eye and see all the misdeeds and inexcusable things ("Siddha Yoga is rotten and bad and you should run away fast..."). Can you look through both eyes and see it clearly in focus? This is a worthwhile undertaking. You are already struggling very nicely with this thing and I think you should continue to do so. Here's why: If you embrace Siddha Yoga completely, knowing what you know, and force yourself to follow the path of blind devotion, you are denying a part of yourself, practicing self obfuscation in the name of self knowledge. While many people do this, there is a tragic element in it. Tragedy cannot be swept under the rug forever, it always re-emerges to collect its toll. On the other hand, what if you just run away angry? How many things have you ever run away from that you were ever really finished with? Running away, by itself, doesn't get you to freedom. It only gets you to a temporary safe place. From there you can then get to freedom, that is if you still remember that you want to get there. I have seen people run away from disturbed relationships only to take on some of the very qualities of the person they were running away from. They ran away and then failed to do the sadhana of the understanding. We all have blind spots and it is very easy to do this. This can be tragic too, and it often is. I have even seen people close to me run away from spiritual teachers and gurus (not Siddha Yoga) and do this. I watched a close friend do this once, and I tried to warn her, but she proceded to take on some of the worst characteristics of the guru she ran away from, never realizing how manipulative and phony she had become. So what's the alternative? Can you find one? I don't think it is easy, but I do think it's worth trying. Here's one suggestion: You can pursue you spiritual beliefs and practices, and participate in Siddha Yoga activities with both eyes open. The only way I know of to do this is with your own integrity clearly in view, and by taking ashram experiences, or other Siddha Yoga experiences in small portions. This means you need lots of time away from organized SY activities, time with others who are honest with themselves, and time alone. I have found that this leads to self knowledge and self respect growing within me. That is what yoga is all about, isn't it? There is a kind of self knowledge we can get in the ashram, an inner space of awareness and healing. This is a blessing but it is not the only blessing. And it is not the only thing we need to nourish our souls unless we have completed all our other spiritual work, all our lessons. I am very grateful for my time in the Siddha Yoga ashrams, I am grateful that I came to Gurumayi, and I am grateful that I left. I lived in the ashram with both eyes open for almost a year and I continued to be very involved in Siddha Yoga for about two years after that before I finally walked away. I am very glad I did this sadhana of the understanding and didn't just go away angry and confused. It isn't worth it to invest so much of yourself in something only to have it remain unresolved inside you. The lessons will just have to be learned another time in another context. Good luck to you. ---- R. Subj: Re: p.s. to LarryOm Date: 96-02-20 00:51:41 EST From: Robert193 You wrote, >> (I don't know what specifics of Ram Butler's course you were referring to--I've seen little there if any that has to do with all this stuff).<< The problem with the correspondence course is that Ram himself doesn't really believe a lot of what he writes. There was a time when he put himself into it completely, as he was. He didn't feel like he was representing SYDA or the ashram. He just called it like he saw it. Then around 1984 Gurumayi told him that even if he didn't feel like he was a representative of SYDA and the ashram, the people who read the course saw him that way and he should write the course with that in mind. After that the course became more stilted and spiritually correct (that old appearance thing again!), and Ram has been plagued with self doubt and inner conflict. The course continued to retain some of its excellence, but it lost most of its simple honesty and freshness. Ram knows this and he is quietly anguished about it. He tries mightily to follow Baba's command (that the course should be so strong that no one could doubt it) and to serve Gurumayi. But he knows he has compromised himself. I stopped taking the course before I moved out of the ashram. Maybe it would have better if Baba just told him the course should be very strong, not that it should be so strong that no one could doubt it. We mortals have a hard time living up to superlatives. Subj: Re:To Larry. 2 of 2/Dissent Date: 96-02-21 11:24:10 EST From: Howie Sm Larry, thanks for your posts. Larry you write << I've gotten too much out of SY to feel anything other than that there is more good than bad in it.>> My response is: I don't buy that good experiences for some = adequate validation of SYDA Foundation. Then we could justify Shoko Asahara (nerve-gas guru). Some kind of ethical criteria has to be taken into account. One of SYDA's core ideas, that the leader is a perfect human and the path is spontaneously perfect, and all the ideas that feed into that core idea, have caused serious injury to many (not all)--as Dissent has outlined. And there is much else there that is systematically misleading. (I don't mean to say that these kind of ideas are dead wrong in theory--just that their implementation in SYDA is.) The question is: can't we all "get a lot out of life" without having to depend upon an unscrupulous organization? Without having to either believe in lies, or condone the practice of systematic lying? Wouldn't you agree that talking about SYDA euphemistically is to be an accomplice in the lying, in a small way? Larry, you yourself have beautifully said elsewhere something to the effect that "the good is in US--not in it" (SYDA organization's trappings). So why do you backtrack now in the passage I just quoted--where you say "there is more good than bad in it." Larry, you say <> I (Howie) agree. One last comment, not directed at Larry, but at everyone here. Didn't Dissent's last post make everyone's heart ache? Why can't we respond to comments like Dissent's with empathy (even those who disagree)--why must statements like Dissent's always FIRST trigger a critical analysis of the dissenter's "mental competence" and credibility, and then lead into guruish advice-giving? It appears that Dissent has had a lifetime dosage of advice from gurus and guru-wannabes--can't you sense that? Why play back tired guru-babble scripts to people who have not only read them all, but possibly written some of them? There are other ways to engage another human being. My main point is: where is the compassion? Or is SYDA really nonempathetic, and just about "me me me"--"about me and my experiences"? Larry, thanks again for your forthrightness. Subj: Re:Is Ram B. propaganda? Date: 96-02-21 14:09:51 EST From: Dissent222 Ram B. may be propaganda, but what about "TRUST YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE?" How about that one for the perfect weapon of repression. What does that actually mean? "Trust your own experience" is the answer to anyone who raises doubts, or questions, or fears. The problem with this is that the doubts, questions and fears ARE YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE!!!! So what is really being said is "Do NOT trust your own experience, i.e., your doubts, questions and fears. Only trust and believe what I want you to and command you to. Your doubts, fears and questions are not you, they are some alien evil things that you should disregard, deny, ignore." So "Trust your own experience" simply means "ONLY think good things about the perfect Guru who is God incarnate; never have doubts, fears or questions about the guru. If you do, you will be excommunicated, and if you are excommunicated, terrible things will happen to you. Perhaps the most terrible of all will be that you will lose your identity - you will lose Me." So even if you see lies and abuse right before your own eyes, do not trust what you saw and heard, ONLY trust your unwavering devotion to me. Remember, I am perfect; any flaw you may notice is YOUR flaw, not mine." This is the kind of mind control used in SYDA which has been remarkably successful. But you can't really function as a human being by annihilating your thoughts and feelings and idolizing someone else as an absolute. It all falls apart, sooner or later. This is what is known as masochism. As Peter Berger has written in "The Sacred Canopy,": "The masochistic attitude is inherently predestined to failure, because the self cannot be annihilated this side of death, and because the other can only be absolutized in illusion." You REALLY want liberation? Trust your doubts and fears about Gurumayi and SYDA. It does wonders. Subj: Re:Dissent222 & SYDA prattle Date: 96-02-21 00:23:55 EST From: Larryom >>Indeed, chanting and "guided" meditation are other tools for warding off the troublesome inner voices of conscience and common-sense<< Is that what you think of these particular practices in any context? If, after chanting, I neglected to even think about whatever may have been troubling before chanting, I'd say your idea had some merit. But generally I find that after chanting I am better equipped mentally to tackle the very issues of conscience you seem to feel chanting was an attempt to evade. This is a simple example of how the same practices don't work equally well or in exactly the same way for all practitioners. Or even the same way on each occassion--some chants affect the same people in different ways at different times; different chants affect us differently and uniquely too. Much of your previous post was deliberately insulting. I don't know why people love to compare any group activity they can't endorse to Nazis. It seems to me the surest way to lose any power of persuasion with or respect from the ones whom you are supposedly trying to show the error of their ways would be to make such insulting insinuations. Is it supposed to shock them or just get others to laugh along (with you) at them? If I soft-peddle my criticisms of Gurumayi & Siddha Yoga it is because I have a lot of respect for those who sincerely believe and are practicing in a heartfelt way. Subj: Re:Dissent222 & SYDA prattle Date: 96-02-21 11:30:31 EST From: Howie Sm Larry, thanks for your notes. Larry, you say <<>> I agree with you: gratuitous Nazi comparisons are dumb. But come on Larry, you've been to the ashram chants. The Nazi comparison has been mentioned to me by others! What I am referring to is, the tendency for people to do the "Heil Hitler" arm gesture while chanting. Often people go "Heil Hitler" with their arms, all together, at points of accent in a chant. In the context of a mob worshipping a God-person sitting in an elevated chair in the front of an public hall, the Hitlerian similarity is IMPOSSIBLE to not notice. You'd have to be blind not to make a Hitler connection. Hey, if someone brought their European grandmother down to see the ashram chant, she'd probably have a heart attack when the "Heil Hitler" routine begins! Again, others have mentioned the "Heil Hitler" gesture to me without me bringing up the subject. The "Heil Hitler" gesture makes SYDA look bad to visitors. One simple SYDA reform is--let's cool it with the "Heil Hitler" arm gesture while chanting. So you see that my Hitler comparison was not gratuitous. I was being literal. I wasn't trying to be ominous or deep with the Hitler comparison. That arm gesture is funny, don't you think! I'm sure that you, Larry, probably chuckle at the oddities down at the ashram yourself from time to time. As to your other point. My post was NOT intended to insult whatever, and I stand by every shred of what I say. I say it as straight as I can without beating around the bush. I do use metaphors as shortcuts, and don't apologize for that since that is part of standard English. If you disagree with me, then great--let's talk about the content of our posts. But I never intend to insult. Larry you say, after I note how practices are used to "brain-stop," <> My answer is no. Of course no. And I agree with what you say about the variability of responses to chanting. What I was driving at is: SYDA has travestized the wonderful universe of yogic practices. For example, "dakshina" is a concept that is easily travestized (in any religious tradition). To me, the carefully crafted travestization enacted by SYDA is its most fascinating aspect, and the most fascinating aspect of pop religious movements in general. It's more interesting than the allegations. Weird monster offspring of cultural traditions are spawned in this way. For example, sales pitches like this become possible: SALES PITCH--"If you want the rare, one in a million experience of having a personal and eternal bond to a world-Sadguru, take initiation from an authorized television set (a TV intensive) for the mere price of $399.95, payable in cash or money order at the registration desk." If people want to buy said product, that is fine--this is America. But don't be surprised if onlookers characterize this as a travestization of the guru-shishya tradition. Subj: Re:To Larry and Howie Date: 96-02-21 14:26:42 EST From: Dissent222 Thank you both for commenting on my post about anger. Larry, please note that I remain angry about SYDA, but I am joyful about many other aspects of my life, which I communicate and share with many other people in many other places. Here, I take the opportunity to state my feelings and share my experiences about SYDA. It gets a lot of response. Nityananda and Gurumayi both read it all, from what I've heard. Many others also read it, as well as the Open Letters in the Hinduism File Library. Telling the truth helps people, and I am telling the truth. I got into SYDA because I love truth and I wanted to help people. I got out of it for exactly the same reasons. Tyrannical dictators are usually not susceptible to change and reform, but they have, in the past, been overthrown through protest that starts with underground resistance. I am thoroughly convinced that Gurumayi will never have the courage to be accountable for her deception and cruelty, so I do my thing with this little underground protest. Gurumayi and Baba ARE Siddha Yoga, and neither of them have ever truly practiced what they teach. They are not what they have claimed to be. So keep the teachings you like; I like some of them myself. Baba and Gurumayi didn't make up any of those teachings, they ripped them off from all over the place. They don't own those teachings - they have betrayed those teachings. Subj: Re:Appropriate Anger Date: 96-02-21 20:30:01 EST From: MDSNMAN Dissent's comments regarding anger toward SYDA and its tyranical rulers are right on the mark. I share that anger, but honestly also feel more than a little foolish at having become so entangled in the webwork of lies that define siddha yoga. How is it that educated, intelligent, more or less rational people, who in most any other aspect of their lives think clearly and act rationally, become so willing to literally abandon their minds, forego liberty (in the US of all places) and join circus siddha yoga while their friends and family watch with open-mouthed amazement? This is a great puzzle to me. Whatever it is, it provides the Babas and Gurumayis and Jim Jones of this world a never-ending supply of power, money and narcissistic pleasure. It would be funny if it didn't mean that peoples lives were sacrificed in the process. Anyway, it is nice to have found this forum where at least a few of us can, with ample and rightous justification vent our anger and share what we came to know about SYDA through our years of service to Twisted Sister and her perverse lineage. Just wish it could reach a few more folks who are just now being sucked into the toilet as they lay their first $500 or $1000 on the registration counter. (No personal checks, please) Subj: Re:Larry -- Ram B's course Date: 96-02-21 20:22:06 EST From: Robert193 Ram's correspondence course *is* cultic. As Disent222 pointed out, >>"Trust you own experience" is the answer to anyone who raises doubts, or questions, or fears. The problem with that is that the doubts, questions and fears ARE YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE!!!! So what is really being said is "Do NOT trust your own experience....<< I think Dissent is right about this. In SY and the correspondence course, "Your own experience" has come to mean those experiences which are expansive or positive. In other words, experiences which would appear to validate or support SY. Experiences other than these are labled "kriyas" which are not to be taken seriously or acted upon. The correspondence course leads its readers to compartmentalize their experience into "valid" experiences (which are supportive of SY) and "kriyas" (which are non-valid experiences). It leads them to *redefine* themselves in terms of their experiences in the first category: "Who I really am" is limited to those feelings and experiences which are supportive of SY. People who follow this teaching of Ram's will deal with their doubts and questions by saying, "That's not really me, that's only a kriya." When they are confronted with the disturbing truths about SY they will say, "These things are not true," or they will say "These things just bring up kriyas. They are intrusions which lead me away from my 'experience', hence they are not real." This is definitely a form of mind control. It is brainwashing. That is why the correspondence course is cultic. There are many good things about the correspondence course. It offers a lot of useful perspectives and there is a lot of sincerity and honesty in it. I think that is why it appeals to so many people. But then the course goes overboard and plunges into cultish brainwashing. Most readers probably resist that aspect of the course. But Ram offers so many good things in the course that he seduces people into trying out the brainwashed perspective, at first nibbling on it, then swallowing it whole. I believe Ram himself is half brainwashed by his own writings. He tries so desperately to convince his readers to live in the brainwashed perspective. This makes me think he is really trying to convince *himself* to live in that perspective. If he was really there (like many hard core devotees are), he wouldn't be torn by inner conflict and anguish. But I think he *is* torn apart inside. He puts all his energy into forcing himself into being something totally contrary to his nature, which is an iconoclast, a maverick, a free spirit. I pity Ram and I have prayed for him many times. Subj: Dissent222/ SYDA dictatorship Date: 96-02-22 08:15:00 EST From: Howie Sm Dissent222, with your characteristic clarity and balance of mind you write: <<>> In SYDA, change won't come from within. There is nothing that is inhibiting Gurumayi's behavior. She has so much power and is so insulated from the outside world of laws and press, that she can and will continue to run amok. This is because the disciples go along with ANYTHING, no matter how contrary it is to logic or conscience. It's a case of absolute power combined with zero conscience. It seems clear that she really learned that THE DISCIPLES WILL SWALLOW ANYTHING during the period in which she wrested the SYDA fortune and dictatorship from her simpleton brother's hands. At first, her actions showed a bit of caution. Her statements show that she was worried about how the disciples might react to the fact that she was caught with her pants down. She was worried that no amount of expensive spin doctoring could be bought to make her prat fall stop hurting. And swamis, disciples, and trustees did indeed leave in disgust during this period. BUT LO AND BEHOLD! The disciples proved themselves to be as malleable as clay, as herdable as sheep. Incredibly, they bought any and all nonsense that was printed on SYDA letterhead. Reasonable statements by others that were not printed on SYDA letterhead were ignored as "kriyas." The instant dictator-types recognize the extent of human gullibility, the efficiency of lawyers, and the intimidating power of thugs, their sociopathy is going to go into overdrive. Can you imagine the moment she realized THE DISCIPLES WILL SWALLOW ANYTHING? She probably thought the rush that came from that moment was self-realization! ! ! And SYDA went from bad to worse in a giant leap. Subj: Robert/SYDA brainwashing Date: 96-02-22 07:43:59 EST From: Howie Sm Dear Robert, I don't add anything new here to your last wonderful post--the post about SYDA's use of Ram Butler as a hired brainwasher--except an afterthought. You say <<<"Who I really am" is limited to those feelings and experiences which are supportive of SY. . . This is definitely a form of mind control. It is brainwashing. That is why the correspondence course is cultic. . . the course goes overboard and plunges into cultish brainwashing. Most readers probably resist that aspect of the course.>>> What about those who, in your words, "resist that aspect of the course"? Many who notice the brainwashing nonetheless exhibit spiritual dependency and superstitous fears. Many who privately chuckle or grumble about the cultish aspects of SYDA nonetheless believe that "something bad will happen" if they face those "negative" perceptions of SYDA. They might "lose their shakti," or "the bogeyman might get them." They remain silent and refocus their attention because there is a fear of negative sanctioning "on the astral plane," and a fear of "loss of love/bliss/etc." If people who notice SYDA's brainwashing stay silent, it suggests they are spiritually dependent on some level. Otherwise they would act with clarity, instead of muddling about with complex denials and rationalizations. The same holds for people who sugarcoat SYDA's faults using improvised "experience talks"--i.e., public "confessions" of their attainments and acquisitions--as pap. People who euphemize about SYDA's "indiscretions" reveal their spiritual dependency. This population is well represented on this AOL board. On some level these people feel that they can't afford to lose SYDA. For those who claim they are "casuals" or "exs" but still exhibit brainwashing, they fear losing the circuitry that SYDA has installed in their brains--the circuitry they are now running their lives on. And of course there are those who are afraid of incurring the wrath of the SYDA "spirit"--the superstitious, magical thinking types. Though all these people insist that they are quite rational and sane and sometimes describe themselves as ex-SYDAites or as casual philosophical types, they doth "protest too loudly." Under their exoskeletons of sanity are SYDA enablers, SYDA apologists, SYDA addicts, SYDA stooges--in a word: SYDA yogis. It is heartening to see that you (Robert), Dissent, and others can see through the cover stories of the spiritually dependent, and express what you see so splendidly. (By the way, I don't mean healthy spirituality. I'm talking unhealthy dependency.) Subj: Re: To Kaiwahine part 1 of 2 Date: 96-02-22 15:37:02 EST From: Robert193 Aloha Kai, or howdy as they say in my part of the country. You said about your involvement in SY: >>I have become so much more who I really am and so much stronger in my own self and more willing and able to speak my truth.<< I believe that. We all got something good out of our involvement in Siddha Yoga. There is indeed something good about the ashram and our experience in it, and about the practices. We weren't fools to have seen the good in Siddha Yoga and to have embraced its path. The folly comes in surrendering to an unethical, decietful, abusive person. If we don't know at first that Gurumayi is such a person, that isn't folly, only naivity. But once we learn the secret truths about her, it is very foolish and dangerous to put ourselves in her hands, to become dependent on her, to surrender to her. We all embraced SY because there was something good to be found there, many good things. This is true of other paths too. There is a time and a reason to become involved with a path like Siddha Yoga, and there is a time and a reason to leave such a path. There are some people who were wise enough to come when it was time to come and to leave when it was time to leave. Some of the anger you see on this board results from people staying far too long, many years after it was time to leave. I stayed involved with Siddha Yoga a few years longer than I should have. Even Steve Hassan (author of the book COMBATTING CULT MIND CONTROL) says that he had some good experiences in the Moonie cult -- there were some good, genuine spiritual aspects to that cult. He says that in some ways he benefitted from his involvement in that cult in the 1970's. He also says that this cult is extremely dangerous and destructive, and he is now one of Americas leading experts on cults and the problems associated with them. The point is to see things realistically, in a grown up way, not black and white like a child or a person without discrimination. It's not that Siddha Yoga is all bad. It certainly isn't. If Steve Hassan can say that there were some genuinely good things in the Moonie cult, how can someone deny that there are good things about Siddha Yoga and its guru? But the good things in Siddha Yoga are not the only things in Siddha Yoga and it would be foolish to pretend otherwise. You also said: >>why have so many people left you ask?Many who were ashramites now live in "the world" practicing Siddha Yoga and supporting Gurumayi's mission,as do I.<< There are also *many* good people who have left SY completely, who don't want anything to do with Gurumayi. Some of these people are angry because they had been deceived and exploited. I don't think it is a good idea to ignore this or to make excuses for it. Subj: Re: To Kaiwahine part 2 of 2 Date: 96-02-22 15:42:36 EST From: Robert193 -- continued -- As for our spiritual heritage, I don't mean contemporary manifestations of Christianity or Judaism. Our spiritual heritage is the profound wisdom about human nature and the magnificent ethical understanding of human life which form the bedrock of both of these religions. I think it is one of the greatest achievements in human history. *This* is our spiritual heritage. To abandon it is highly perilous. The reason cults are so dangerous is they seduce people into abandoning this precious spiritual heritage for the sake of some inner experiences. This is an invitation to tragedy. Idon't think Siddha Yoga is as dangerous for most people as the Moonie cult. But when we learn about the deceit and the abuse which have been rampent in Siddha Yoga, I think that is the time to get at least one foot off the path. You may not understand why so many people have so much bitterness and anger about Siddha Yoga but the way I see it is this: Too many of us willfully abandoned our great heritage for the sake of some good inner experiences and the promise of more to come. This is wrong and most of us knew it was wrong. I think some of the people who have left Siddha Yoga feel a lot of shame because of how they thought and behaved as devotees, and I think this is at the root of much of the anger and bitterness. In a recent post MDSNMAN made a comment about people throwing away $500 or $1000 when they enthusiastically arrive at the ashram. But I think it is the squandering of our ethical / spiritual wealth that leaves people angry and bitter in the end. As for Judaism, I don't know too much about it but I recently read a really excellent book called JEWS, GOD AND HISTORY by Max I. Dimont. This book is so popular that it has been in print since 1962. I learned a lot from it. He even talks about some large scale cults which developed in Judaism in the middle ages. There is nothing new under the sun! ---- R. Subj: To MDSNMAN:LatoyaJackson? Date: 96-02-23 14:53:20 EST From: Howie Sm ********** WARNING TO PEOPLE OTHER THAN MDSNMAN: PLEASE SKIP OVER THIS MESSAGE IF YOU ARE EMOTIONALLY UNSTABLE. ********** MDSNMAN, Given your sense of humor, maybe you can answer this: is there a Latoya Jackson thing going on here? 1. Jackoesque facial plastic surgery, in order to resemble Caucasian models. 2. Big purpose in life is to attack brother, tooth and nail. 3. Romantic liason with the business person running their organization. 4. Makes wildly implausible statements with a straight face. 5. Goes for variety shows and revues. 6. Source material for comics. Humorously yours. Subj: Re:To MDSNMAN:LatoyaJackson? Date: 96-02-23 16:24:14 EST From: Dissent222 Only difference, Intensives aren't offered on a 900 number - - - yet. Subj: To NaradaP, Vedanta Date: 96-02-23 20:05:52 EST From: Howie Sm Narada, I understand you pursue Vedanta as a philosophy, and are sympathetic with the Vedanta folk as a group. I have found the Vedanta folk to be, in general, good folk. I've tracked their organization since the 60s and have also looked into their history before then. Although the Vedanta organization had some growth pains, which involved intraorganizational strife and a two-way split early on having to do with their reluctance to recognize women in leadership roles, I would never compare them with SYDA. Some time back one of Vedanta's representatives wrote a letter pleading with Da Free John (aka Adi Da, etc.) to clean up his act so as not to give Hinduism a bad name. As you might know, Da Free John had an authorizing letter from Swami Muktananda which helped launch his guru career. John was a Muktananda follower early on, and since then has built an organization based on zapping people in dramatic ways, as Muktananda did. I was impressed with Vedanta taking the effort to write to him in the hope of curbing his misconduct. It was a real down-to-earth show of social responsibility. The swamis I knew in Vedanta were always more focused on spiritual substance--than on spiritual fireworks. The razzle-dazzle of experiential fireworks, one of SYDA's calling cards, is something the Vedanta organization never stressed. That is to their credit. Subj: Re:To Howie, on Dependence Date: 96-02-23 23:53:42 EST From: Robert193 Hi Howie, thanks for your comments on my post about Ram's course. >>What about those who, in your words, "resist that aspect of the course"? Many who notice the brainwashing nonetheless exhibit spiritual dependency and superstitous fears. Many who privately chuckle or grumble about the cultish aspects of SYDA nonetheless believe that "something bad will happen" if they face those "negative" perceptions of SYDA<< All I can say about this is from my own experience. I think it has to do with a notion which is promoted in SY: That spiritual experience comes *from* the guru, from our connection to the guru. I noticed the brainwashing long before I rejected it. But I thought, "Maybe he's right. Maybe if I take another step into the brainwashed perspective I'll have better experiences." In much of his writings Ram is very credible. I used to think "I don't know much but Ram knows a lot, maybe I should take his word for it even though it seems wrong. Maybe it's just my limitations and samskaras which are holding me back." This is how the correspondence course encourages people to think. The idea is that we grow spiritually by disassociating ourselves from what we believe and substituting Siddha Yoga beliefs in their place. This is coupled with the notion that the guru is the source of our spiritual experiences or our connection to God. This is what you call spiritual dependency and I agree with you. SY and the correspondence course cultivate a psychological dependence and a childish, almost infantile stance in life. People relate to Gurumayi like a small child relates to Mommy and Daddy. It is only natural as we regress in this direction to become fearful of our independence. We become fearful of having our own thoughts and fearful of striking out on our own, away from Gurumayi (or the ashram, or the correspondence course). This is the child's way of being in the world, and for many of us it was our way of being in Siddha Yoga. I think the superstitious fears you mention are the result of the childlike state which SY promotes. Jesus said we should become like children if we wanted to enter into the kingdom of heaven but I don't think this is what he had in mind. I think he meant childlike wonder and openness, not childlike fear and dependency. p.s. Maybe you're onto something with this Latoya Jackson thing! Subj: Re:Larryom -- on Ram B. Date: 96-02-25 12:42:31 EST From: Robert193 You're right Larry. I don't actually *know* that Ram is anguished. I never knew him personally. But I took his course for a long time and I heard him talk many times at courses, intensives and workshops. I think I have a pretty good feel for what he's like and I feel pretty certain that he is torn apart inside. Here's why: In the early days of the course Ram lived in Florida and he attracted his own following of people. He was like an independent spiritual teacher within Siddha Yoga. Baba didn't tolerate that and he brought Ram to the Oakland Ashram and busted him severely for it. Ram writes about this in the course, although he doesn't mention much about having his own little following. You have to learn that from people who were around in those days. (I wasn't -- I came in the spring of '83.) The point of this is that Ram thrives on the support and love that others give him. I think that is why he writes so often and so strongly on the subject of "others" in the course. (The opinions of others don't matter, others are just part of the maya, others are a projection of your mind, etc.) I think he is writing mainly to himself on this subject. He values the attention and affection of others a lot, and yet he isolates himself in the ashram. You can live in the ashram and not see him for months. Then when you see him he doesn't look happy at all. He looks troubled. Why would someone who thrives on the love and attention of others isolate himself within his own community? I think it's because he's very unhappy about being in that community. He is alienated within the ashram but no one has alienated him. He has alienated himself. I think underneath his strong exterior support of Siddha Yoga he really can't stand it. I think SY is really repulsive to him. He gives many hints about this in the course although he never comes right out and says it. He writes about it in the past tense, as if he's gotten over it or as if it's good for him to force himself to embrace something he really can't stand. In many of the lessons he talks about how crazy and unpleasant the ashram can be. He then goes on to say that this is good for us and we should ignore it (the brainwashed perspective). He used to talk about "the wonderful wrongness of everything in Siddha Yoga", although he no longer says this. I don't think he has stopped feeling that so many things in SY are wrong. I think he has just stopped saying it. When he gives talks or answers questions, you often hear his sardonic humor and you get a glimpse of what he's really like. People who are really brainwashed (or who naturally accept SY completely) don't have that mocking outsider's perspective. Someone like Ram doesn't become "company man" without forcing himself to be that way. Ram says in the lessons that he has had all the doubts that others have had, even more doubts than they have. I believe it. That's the kind of person he really is and I don't think his doubts have left him. I think he just forces himself to "go beyond them", that is to discount or reject what he really feels. He calls this sadhana, and he holds it up as an example of living a spiritual life, but I don't think he really buys it. I think Ram is hurting because he forces himself to be something which is he knows is wrong for him. I think that is why he is so alienated in the ashram, and why he never looks well. I felt very uncomfortable about SY for two or three years before I finally left. Since then I have realized that many others in SY also do, and I think Ram is one of them. I think he knows it is wrong for him to still be there and that is why I have prayed for him. Subj: About the Corr. Course Date: 96-02-26 00:09:03 EST From: Dissent222 Ram B. has been receiving Gurumayi's contempt and devaluation for a long time, even though she makes a lot of money off of the Course. She resents his "mini-Guru" status, and he tries to pretend he adores her as the inner self, or whatever. Why doesn't he write about his rage, and his loneliness and dissatisfaction? Because he doesn't dare admit to himself and the world that SYDA, Gurumayi, and he are all running on empty. Today I read what Ram had to say about the New Yorker article. Don't argue, don't disturb your mind, don't this don't that. Surrounded by new age platitudes we have a brutally frank hypnotic suggestion to ignore the whole thing, treat it like a cloud floating by, and put on a happy face. If these are the effects of spiritual awakening, how do you tell them apart from clinical brain death? Subj: Re:Siddha Yoga 20 years Date: 96-02-26 17:55:05 EST From: Shridevi I have been practicing Siddha Yoga for about 20 years now. I am currently 29 years old, so it is a very deep part of my life. During my second trip to Ganeshpuri (around 1977) I began to understand what my relationship to this path was about. Even though I was so young, I was definitely doing 'real' sadhana. And also, I was precocious. Baba and (then) Malti used to say that I was an old soul in a young body as I was already studying Sanskrit with Swami Tejo and taking the "teacher training" courses etc. etc. etc. The Brahmin priests came to do a yajna and I remember sitting for hours and chanting with them, the mantras coming from some familiar place. When I was 13 I was raped by one of the adults on staff (a VIP.) A tape of my voice was made and edited to sound like I was servicing several ashramites at once (by the ashram video staff) and was distributed under the title "the best little whore house in south fallsburg." This was during the time that Baba's own misconduct was coming out, but I didn't know about it yet. I was told it was my fault, that I was a whore. If you want to say this was my karma - go ahead. I'm familiar with that cop out and it only reflects one's inability to take a moral stand as far as I'm concerned. When I was 21 I had finally had enough shame and sexual scapegoating and I began to do my own research into the allegations against Baba. I've talked to many people who are not so naive as the average, well-intentioned, yogi. Indeed it is true. More than you can imagine. I'm sure that people are getting wonderful things from their practice, but for the sake of true Dharma, it is important to want to know the truth and to take a moral stand. All of the women whose bodies were violated in the most horrible ways were, like me, never supported. He got away with it. He continues to get away with it as long as well meaning, good people like yourselves choose to remain in the dark and to give your precious time and energy and money to that corrupt organization. Make the connection. Visualize your daughter, your mother, your sister, yourself taking your clothes off, lying on a specially made table, spreading your legs. I know it is hard. But it is true. One young woman was in hysterics - she was called to Baba and did not want to go. She sought help and the person who came to her aid was the person who you hear had threats of dismemberment etc. etc. I lived in Ann Arbor. I know the story there too. I watched my intelligent friends, who were sweet but new to the organization and its politics, be lied to and used as pawns in a pathetic power struggle. If you are inspired to delete this message, look into your soul. There are better ways to be with God. Subj: Ram Butler Date: 96-02-26 18:41:19 EST From: Shridevi Last year, when Ram came out to the west coast to do one of his workshops, we got together. I used to work in the SYCC office. Ram befriended me after the sex thing happened. He was the only person that wanted to support me. Anyway, I spent a lot of personal time with him last year and talked candidly about where I was coming from. This was before the New Yorker article came out. I told him "I think I will feel free when I feel free of Siddha Yoga. I can't go to the ashram, I just feel like I am being smothered by all these righteous ideas of 'spirituality' etc. etc." His comment was that he felt the same way. He left. I was called by Liz Harris to be interviewed for the article. We talked. I connected to many old friends who have finally left. And then I got my (scholarship) course in the mail with the newsletter suggesting that we pray for the poor deluded people who wrote the article . . . quoting the outraged naive (but probably integrous) people who don't know what they are talking about AS IF what they are saying is true. . . Anyway, I thought it was pretty pathetic of Ram. I expect that since I have finally unsnagged myself, he should too. But it took me 8 years. I've talked about getting together with Ram when he comes out here at the end of March. Of course, now that I've said this, I am probably up a few notches on the preverbial "LIST." Subj: Re:Lotoya/Shridevi Date: 96-02-26 20:38:00 EST From: MDSNMAN Great post Howie. Funny. And Dissent's 900 number idea is no doubt getting serious consideration in the bowels of siddha yoga right now (What do you think, Mac?). But as we all laugh at this pathetic cult now from the outside, let us not forget the real human cost that has been paid by people like Shridevi. Her story is not unique. I was never raped, but I lost 20 years of my adult life. I lost my will, my self-confidence, my independence, and for a while even my ability to distinguish right from wrong. There are hundreds of us out here. My prayer is that others are spared the anguish of being snared into that world the way we were and that we all continue to heal, move forward with confidence and get on with our lives. God bless. Subj: the story of 20 years in SY Date: 96-02-26 23:45:42 EST From: Shridevi Dear Siddha Yogini, it appears that you are truly fortunate to have practiced Siddha Yoga for as long as you have and have not encountered anything but the beauty of the teachings, the joy of devotion and an open hearted spiritual community. I spent 20 years in Siddha Yoga (at this point more that two thirds of my life - I grew up in it) and have had many thousands of wonderful experiences. When I was nine years old, my family went to the DeVille (the first South Fallsburg retreat center) to meet Baba. By the time I was 11, I was the youngest person ever to become a formal teacher of Siddha Yoga. The teachings of Kashmir Shaivism resonate at the very core of my being. I feel that I came to Siddha Yoga at such a young age because I had been doing these practices before. They are still my religious practices of choice. When I was 13, I was sexually assaulted by a senior staff member of Baba's tour. He was on the video staff and made an audio tape of my voice which he edited to sound like I was servicing (giving head) to a number of ashram young men (a story which they all corroborated later.) I was punished for this, and was told I was a whore - a label which followed me for many years. I know how it felt to have no one take a moral stand on my behalf. Everyone was more concerned with protecting the ashram and protecting their "experiences" from the possibility that something was fucked up. I can understand that because even after my experience, I remained uncritical for another 15 years. This happened at the same time that the "alleged" sexual misconduct letters by Sam Trout were circulating. I had no idea at the time that part of the reason I was being so severely sexually scapegoated as a child had to do with the enormous sexual shadow floating around the ashram. Anyway, when I was 21 or so, I started investigating these rumors. I trusted that if it is TRUE that "nothing exists which is not Shiva" then I need not be afraid of anything I might discover, there is no territory that is not sacred if I approach this with respect for Dharma and for the truth of the teachings. Strange events in my life lead me to meet people who had first had experience of these accusations, and were not just "gossiping." Also, after so many hundreds of accounts of things, I decided that keeping Baba's name clear at the expense of innocent young girls was like protecting OJ Simpson because he is famous and rich, and at one time we all had a transference on football players. Just because I had a transference on Baba, and a powerful one at that, did not change the fact that he had told young girls to take their clothes off and spread their legs for him. They were often quite traumatized. I don't think it is righteous to cling to igorance and to defend Muktananda at the expense of so many other human beings. Subj: the list Date: 96-02-26 23:53:14 EST From: Shridevi Yes, there is a "list" and I am on it. Again, I have known people who were very high in the security department. Not only is there a bonafide list, but there are bonafide weapons in South Fallsburg and in India. I know there is a bonafide list also, because I am on it. I was told I was on it by someone who saw it, but knew this for myself when I was called out of bed in the middle of the night to "talk" to the manager. She wanted to make sure I felt "comfortable" with my experience in Ann Arbor. What happened in Ann Arbor? Well, after they totally went after Nityananda and lied to the devotees about it, I stopped going to satsang. Most of my friends were very clearly ex-communicated and I was told if I was ever to associate with them again I (like they) would not be allowed ever to come back to the ashram. My friends had videos of the violence that took place against Nityananda and which clearly exposed the lies Gurumayi's people were telling. However, I never had contact with these people because I graduated and moved home. When I came back to Ann Arbor several months later, a huge list of false allegations were presented to me after they dragged me out of the meditation hall. I told them they should get their story straight before I wrote to Gurumayi and they shaped up right away. They said "Nityananda could destroy my sadhana." I replied "How about your lying and gossip and attacks in the name of Siddha Yoga, what does that do for my sadhana?" They apologized profusely and realized they had a person who was not a total idiot on their hands. I could tell the whole story if anyone is interested, it is actually humorous. But anyway, I did tell Liz Harris and (see next bulletin) Subj: the article Date: 96-02-26 23:56:02 EST From: Shridevi I was one of the people interviewed by Liz and I have to say that she was very careful to print only what was corroborated my many many many people. Liz had so much more information that she did not print. Everything in that article is true. I know because I experienced most of it first hand. Dear Ms. Marie, Please wake up. For the sake of the young girls, for the sake of them, stop protecting this organization. Your righteousness now will embarrass you later. Subj: Re:the list -Ann Arbor Date: 96-02-27 06:35:12 EST From: Dissent222 The most interesting thing to me about how the Ann Arbor devotees attacked Nityananda, at Gurumayi's request, was that a licensed clinical psychologist there, who now works with a former SYDA Trustee, was instructed by Gurumayi and George Afif to hire a local thug to threaten Nityananda and disrupt his meeting. This licensed clinical psychologist is also someone on Gurumayi's panel of advisors who Gurumayi sends people with problems in the ashram to. This man's behavior shows the extent to which loyalty to Gurumayi is the equivalent of loss of integrity. Loyalty to her ALWAYS means, in the end, the willingness to be exploited and degraded. Why? Read "Captive Hearts, Captive Minds". I participated in several of the Nityananda bashing events over the years, all at Gurumayi's request. I have a hand written note from her thanking me for doing so. He was followed all over India, and all over the world. Travel and lodging fees for those sent to stalk and harass him are paid by all you loyal devotees, from your so-called dakshina. Subj: Bhagwan Hasheesh Date: 96-02-26 22:28:23 EST From: Dissent222 I heard this weekend that B. Premanand, the head of the Indian Skeptic organization, grew up in the town Bhagawan Nityananda used to live in. It seems that Nityananda Sr. was quite famous, not for miracles, but for being continuously stoned on hemp. No wonder the gurus who claim descent from him are Muktananda, Gurumayi (aka Twisted Sister), Nityananda Jr., Swami Rudy, and Adi Da (or Da Free John). The names of the Gurus in the lineage before Nityananda Sr. have never before been revealed. Now it can be told! They are, not necessarily in sequence: - The Marquis de Sade - Atilla the Hun - Leona Helmsley - Bozo the Clown - The Wicked Witch of the West (later reincarnated as Swami Kripananda) - The Artist Formerly Known as Prince - Cruela DeVil and loads of others! If you know their names, feel free to add to the list! Subj: Re:re: Lawsuit Date: 96-02-26 22:30:22 EST From: Dissent222 Suhasini Dobrovolny and Sudama Sitkin brought the restraining order against SPV on behalf of SYDA. SPV tried to use the 2 Open Letters in his brief, but the SYDA lawyers got that stricken from the record. They succeeded in restraining him from harrassing women in the Oakland Ashram, and apparently got him off of AOL. SPV's claims of victory are typically twisted. Subj: Re:Bhagwan Hasheesh Date: 96-02-27 06:08:05 EST From: Howie Sm Bhagwan Hasheesh! Now it can be told! (continued): THE THOUSAND QUALITIES AND NAMES OF THE LIVING GODHEAD -aesthetic taste of Tammy Faye Bakker -tactics of Tanya Harding -singing ability of Roseanne -profile of Dorian Gray -conflict resolution style of Amy Fisher -scriptural knowledge of Knucklehead Smith -trustworthiness of Pinto gas tank -family feel of Menendez Bros. -meditative stillness of Norman Bates (last scene) -sense of humor of a SYDA apologist (Keep the Vedic oral tradition alive! Those who know the other qualities, please help complete the list) Subj: charlie's frontal lobe(s) Date: 96-02-27 21:41:03 EST From: Shridevi Sometimes "the guru" doesn't ask us to do the elite, violent and clearly amoral things, sometimes she asks us to be one of the masses whose job it is to stubbornly and skillfully defend, as you are, her behavior. (I remember that night of the dancing saptah. I was there, one of the elites. The ashram video department was located above the 'teacher training room' and I was up there desperately trying to get my hands on the 'whore house' cassette and destroy it.) You seem like the kind of person who has enough integrity to stand up to security guards in SYDA. This is a very straight forward thing. However, to stand up to your own complex rhetoric is another matter. One is black and white, another is smeared to grey. I spent many years tangled up in such an esoteric web of thoughts, and felt righteous because of it. (mine was not the easy answer.) Well, I still don't have a simple answer aesthetic, but the molecular dance of ideology and power becomes clearer over time. Here's a quote from my thesis, adapted from Anti-Oedipus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia by D&G. "Schizophrenia", like those suffering from it, goes by many names. "Philosophy" is one. Not just any philosophy. A bastard kind. Legitimate philosophy is the handiwork of bureaucrats of purity and spirituality (and don't show you're angry 'cause then you're the weak one) who speak in the shadow of the despot and are in historical complicity with the state (read ashram). They invent a properly spiritual absolute state that effectively functions in the mind. Theirs is the discourse of sovereign judgement (scripturally correct), of stable (non-hysterical, not angry, not feminine) legislated by "good" sense, of rocklike identity, "universal" truth and (white male) justice. Thus the exercise of their thought is (already even before they think it) in conformity with the aims of the State with the dominant significations and with the requirements of the established order." What is important about these pseudo sophisticated ideologies put forth in statements like yours, Charlie, is that they are complicit and entrained BEFORE YOU EVEN THINK THEM. Ideology IS ideology BECAUSE it APPEARS to be NATURAL. Ideology is the mirror that you look into and say "this is me! this is authentic! this feels like 'coming home.'" And it does not take a 'weak' person to get sucked into it. I'm sorry to say that every truly sophisticated intellectual (god forbid people have intellects, I know, especially us women) would totally laugh at the idea that only 'weak' people succumb to ideology. That is what ideology WANTS you to think! It wants you to think that YOU with all of your native american stories and sweet wisdom sound bites are AWAKE by god. I know I sound like a conspiricist. I'm not, I just am trying to keep it simple here on aol. Subj: Re:Dependency Paradigm Date: 96-02-27 06:41:37 EST From: Dissent222 Your paradigm sounds fine, but don't blame victims for feeling victimized, OK? Gurumayi is a con artist and a psychopath, and her organization has refined the art of exploitation and mind control to a tee. Many people who fall into her trap have dependency issues, but everyone has them, not just people who get into cults. Just about anyone with a talent for self-suggestion, some idealism, and some vulnerability, can get seduced into SYDA, have experiences, and become controlled. Read some of this literature out there, it's good stuff - The Guru Papers; Captive Hearts, Captive Minds; The Wrong Way Home; etc. Subj: shridevi Date: 96-02-27 14:20:40 EST From: Soloflyr11 dear shridevi, again i have to thank you after reading more of your posts. i can't tell you how i appreciate your sharing. you obviously became involved in siddha yoga with your family. i do hope that the rest of your family also has left. i have a cousin that i love very much that is still quite involved. that is difficult for me especially cause i have this strong inpulse to shake him and say "don't you see". but of course when i tried it was like talking to a wall or maybe more like a machine where i could press a button and get a totally predictable response. it makes me angry it makes me sad. my cousin's response to the abuse of nityananda which he partook in was "well, he broke his vows". it is so sad to me that people (like my cuz) who really are seeking enlightenment and awakening could be so misled to believe that abusive behavior is alright. life truly is interesting. but then wasn't it confucius that said that it's a curse to be born in interesting times.... thanx again!!!!! solo Subj: Re:Dependency Paradigm Date: 96-02-27 21:07:30 EST From: NaradaP Dissent222, Thank you for the post and the reading list. I agree with you that most people have dependency issues, but I believe that is only a phase in our spiritual evolution. Eventually we will out grow it. We have to if we are ever to become truly enlighten in this life or in some life to come. No enlighten being is ever dependent on another. Why should they when they have every desire satiated? In fact to me, evolution on the spiritual path means to become more and more independent until we are liberated from all external dependencies. But I disagree that everybody has dependency issues. To say that is pure projection. We have to understand other people from where they are coming from, not from where we are coming from. Myself, I am very independent. In fact, since my happiness lies in the non-dual, I've never formed relationships for happiness sake, I know nothing about giving or receiving affection. If I projected my independence on you, I couldn't understand the hold SYDA held over you! I feel that being dependent is definitely a weakness that leaves one open for manipulation. Charlie said, "I wonder if you're the victims of a corrupt Guru or your own inner weaknesses." I would agree with what Charlie said if he would change one word. If he would change the word 'or' to 'and'. In other words I would agree with Charlie if he would of said, "I wonder if you're the victims of a corrupt Guru and your own inner weaknesses." Because a corrupt Guru could only get to you through your own weakness. A Guru who was not corrupt would try to strengthen your weakness. Don't you think so? You said, >>but don't blame victims for feeling victimized<< To this I would say that we learn that fire is hot by getting our fingers burnt. That is how we learn. So if a child gets his fingers stung learning fire is hot, do we blame that child for burning his fingers, or do we understand that the child is learning a useful lesson in life? The same with being victimized by ones dependencies issues, when one gets burnt enough, one will began to differentiate away from ones dependency issues into living more independent lives thereby giving one more control over ones own destine. But one *must* take responsibility for ones own life and actions. It is because you neglected to resolve your dependency issues that gave an angle for a Guru to 'get' to you. If you neglect to take care of it still, you will find history repeating itself. Namaste Subj: Re:Dependency Paradigm Date: 96-02-27 21:27:29 EST From: Dissent222 Narada P You state: " I believe that is only a phase in our spiritual evolution. Eventually we will out grow it. We have to if we are ever to become truly enlighten in this life or in some life to come. No enlighten being is ever dependent on another. Why should they when they have every desire satiated? In fact to me, evolution on the spiritual path means to become more and more independent until we are liberated from all external dependencies." You are talking about fantasies, not reality. A completely independent human being is a monster, someone without the capacity for empathy, without the ability to genuinely, intimately connect with others, and desperately empty inside -- all of which describe Gurumayi to a tee, the tortured, bulimic restaurant owner's daughter who became a perpetrator after being a victim for so long.. The rest of your argument is proof of your total lack of contact with yourself and with reality. And you have the gall to say you're independent? Judging from your text here, I would say you are isolated from people and reality. Read what is on this board and wake up. People have been raped and abused and betrayed in the cruellest possible ways by Gurumayi, Muktananda and their closest staff members. Your puerile idiotic blather is utterly inappropriate, truly sick. Subj: enough heavy shit Date: 96-02-28 05:41:23 EST From: Shridevi I hope you all have a philosophical sense of humor. One of the nice things about being out of that scene is that you're not trying to wield heavy scriptural weapons all the time. While GM was here in California, one of my good friends got back into SY. A couple of days ago she sent me a letter telling me our friendship was over. I've been in human-ness here for a while - feeling sad about the whole thing. And pissed. And righteous. And relieved. And liberated. And all kinds of things. I don't want SY to come between me and someone I love. Love is the bigger thing. Two intelligent people with their hearts in the right place should be able to work it out. But we weren't. And I don't really believe that we will. And that sucks. I wish I had never been raised in that organization, then there wouldn't be a whole group of people on the planet that made me want to barf. I hope that this wears off over time. Actually, it is just the "power denial" as my friend calls it, that makes me want to barf. Subj: Hitlerian herd behavior/BVena Date: 96-02-28 05:19:34 EST From: Howie Sm BVena, about the SYDA appropriation of the "Heil Hitler" arm gesture you say: <<<>>> The SYDA "Heil Hitler" gesture--the specific, wooden way it is executed in SYDA--is not an Indian universal. Conformist displays of the "Heil Hitler" arm gesture were not even a FAD in SYDA until late on into Gurumayi's regime. And the "Heil Hitler" effect is not seen at routine chants. The big-time "Heil Hitler" effect occurs just at the more intense chants directed by Gurumayi. Perhaps you haven't been to these bigger chants, so you don't realize how specific I am when I single out SYDA as the champion of the "Heil Hitler" arm gesture. The way SYDAites do "Heil Hitler" is distinctive. You can almost hear the heel clicks! It takes more than they physical "Heil Hitler" arm gesture to get the Hitlerian effect. It takes a mob doing it with the correct Hitlerian "bhav." Shridevi understands this well, when she writes: <<>> HERD BEHAVIOR: that's the significant concept. The arm gesture is just gravy. Subj: Shridevi: SYDA story/movie Date: 96-02-28 05:41:09 EST From: Howie Sm Shridevi, you ask <<>> The story has just been made into a wonderful movie titled "Harrison Bergeron." This story of a zombie culture, in which the intelligent/creative are arrested and forcibly lobotomized while the masses sit with dopy smiles, will seem a trot down memory lane for those who know SYDA. The zombies are portrayed as incapable of responding to the simplest, rational arguments against the rampant mind control. Sound familiar? Parents smilingly hand over their children for lobotomization. Sound familiar? The zombies have been brainwashed into believing that intelligence/creativity and unhappiness are synonymous. Sound familiar? I strongly recommend it to movie-lovers. It's a fun movie that is worth seeing. Subj: Re:To NaradaP Date: 96-02-28 00:50:39 EST From: Robert193 Thanks for bringing your purity of mind and purpose to this forum. I think it's good to think spiritually or philosophically and I think it's good to get grounded in the interpersonal / dualistic realm. We are, after all people who exist in that realm and we are belong here. This business about independence is very tricky. I think it's great to become independent of some things, but some people lose touch with the ethical framework which is necessary for human life (which exists only in communities of one sort or another). A person who becomes "independent" of that is truly dangerous. I think Dissent 222 is right about that. I hope you continue both your contemplations and your work and relationships in the realm of "duality". I also hope you aren't chased away by the anger on this forum. That anger exists for a very good reason and although it may sometimes come your way, it's really not directed towards you personally, but towards those who have used spiritual language as a way of masking manipulative and destructive agendas. There's a lot to be learned on this forum and you're lucky to be involved in these discussions before you got yourself into a situation where spiritual language was used for manipulation and deceit. Subj: Re:Dependency Paradigm Date: 96-02-28 05:22:38 EST From: Shridevi Total independence is an idealist notion, not reflected in nature. In reality, as opposed to spiritual theory, we are mutually interdependent. There is a relationship. The relationship that most people in Siddha Yoga agreed to was not a corrupt one. To spend our time trying to psychoanalyze ourselves misses the point, I think. It fails to understand ideology as such, and instead, gets us side tracked into subjectivizing everything. Subj: Narada/Dependency Paradigm Date: 96-02-28 06:25:42 EST From: Howie Sm Narada, Since you probably don't really endorse rapists and sociopathy, perhaps you would like to know how your attempt to write has misfired. Most people on this forum know I have a thick skin, but when I read your recent messages I gasped--I literally HOWLED--with embarrassment. Someone who is conspicuously slow on the uptake should not try to ape Hindu philosophers. Perhaps without realizing it, you are arguing that SYDA's abuses--for example, SYDA rape--is a problem of metaphysics. It is not. It is a problem of ethics. Ethics--the principles of conscientious human conduct--is not metaphysics. This is obvious to someone who has grasped even the Cliff's notes version of Vivekananda and Shankara. Both these fine thinkers were sophisticated ethicists as well as metaphysicians. There is of course a connection between philosophical subdisciplines. But the notion that someone who shouts "help, I'm being raped" is wallowing in duality is patently absurd! The way you cobble words together paints you as a sociopath. As Dissent222 points out. Worse, you drag in Hinduism in your display of misspeaking! Dissent222 is maybe your best friend--if you aren't really a sociopath, I'd listen to his easy-to-grasp advice. Robert--with remarkable elegance and politeness--is telling you the same thing Dissent222 is. I have written this message because they forget to tell you this: unless you want the world to think you are a lunatic, start writing plainly. Watching you play with words is like watching a chimpanzee play with loaded guns. I admit I am not a good writer either, for I was unable to find a nice way to put this to you. Subj: I'm leaving Date: 96-02-28 13:13:38 EST From: Somadatta Charlie, the lesson I need to learn is how not to get mad when I read brainwashed people.It reminds me of the way I used to be. It is painful to read. These inappropriate defenses of siddha yoga feel sadistic. Yes, I have lessons to learn. I already feel pathetic enough as it is for being so stupid for so many years and don't need to hear sanctimonious spiritual putdowns right now. But maybe now that I'm not brainwashed anymore at least there's hope for me. I regret that I started writing messages because it feels like getting dragged into a world with brainwashed people all over again. I feel like I've been sucked into something crazy again. I'm leaving this areafor now. Thank you everyone. I learned something here. Subj: Re:to Mira about "Nit Jr." Date: 96-02-28 11:21:35 EST From: CHIKKAR Why is everyone using up valuable board space and time to digress on something that occured 10 years ago. Baba is dead for over 12 years. He is not present to defend himself. Also, Gurumayi may ultimately be in charge, but anyone who has ever been involved in the real business world or even in church affairs knows how much power is abused by even average workers. Where is the proof that GM and George had an affair? Scandal and slander are serious issues. They can be cause for lawsuits. Be careful what you spread around on the net. Think of the harm it is doing! If anyone besides the original group of open letter writers has hard evidence of what has been going on in SYDA YOGA, please have the courage to come forward and settle this devisive issue. Otherwise, please discontinue this endless ranting and raging.It's exhausting to those of us who prefer honest, rational dialogue. Vasagupta Subj: Re:to Mira about "Nit Jr." Date: 96-02-28 14:26:58 EST From: Dissent222 Telling the truth about the history of corruption, abuse and deception in Siddha Yoga, which has always been the case and continuest to this day, does not do harm. It is Muktananda's and Gurumayi's and Geo. Afif's corruption, abuse and deception that has harmed and continues to harm, even destroy, so many lives. Subj: Re:I'm leaving Date: 96-02-28 15:31:54 EST From: Shridevi I had the same impulse as Somadatta. I saw myself getting all reactive about things that are difficult for me, but basically I feel pretty clear about. I also saw myself being rude to people just because they were saying righteous things that I myself might have said several years ago. I apologize for that. I don't think this is about the battle of the belief systems, or who to blame. It should be about learning about this phenomenon (not just cults, but power and ideology in general) and making a positive contribution. I do think that calling attention (over and over if necessary) to the abuses perpetrated by SYDA is a positive contribution. There is so much dis-information, it is wonderful that there is a place to speak the truth. However, if we look outside our little cult world, we see that a similar kind of fascism is taking over the bigger reality. How can we use what we have learned to wake up and take action in that sphere as well? Subj: SYDA employment practices Date: 96-02-28 15:58:05 EST From: Bob1258487 Why not get down to what's really important here? The thing that really bugs me is the fact that the SYDA business empire is built on the backs of the full time sevites - people who have been persuaded to give up the best years of their lives in the expectation of some undefined spiritual benefit. And what do they get when they leave in return for this generous donation of their sweat and career potential? Any of the benefits that would be expected from any self-respecting business? A pension? Health insurance? A savings account? Maybe just something to put on their resume? Maybe just a few friendships that survive their departure from SYDA? Not bloody likely. "Hi, I'd like to apply for the job of manager at your firm." "OK, what are your qualifications." "Well, I took the Fire Course twice, and spent ten years volunteering full-time in a religious group." Who is going to take care of these ex-SYDA people and ex-Swamis who leave for one reason or another? They haven't even made Social Security contributions, since any pay they may earn in SYDA is considered a "stipend" and any room and board a "scholarship." That kind of fraudulent employment practice is the kind of thing that earns you more than a casual glance from the IRS if you try it with your housekeeper, but powerful religious groups all over this country get away with it all the time. (Note - SYDA is not even the most egregious in this respect) These people wash up on taxpayer beach after years in SYDA, most likely without remaining friends and family to care for them, having lost the threads of a career or education, like middle-aged divorcees who thought that staying home and taking care of the kids would be enough to see them through. And the kicker is that the way people are persuaded to give up their lives and become full-time staff members is through the kind of hard-sell practices that a used car dealer would be embarrassed about. "The opportunity of working for a sadguru comes up only once in a lifetime." They go after young people who have no idea of how deleting a chunk of the best years of their life will affect their careers. I have no objection to people volunteering some of their time for a cause which is important to them. It is when they become full-time employees for years without the minimum safety net that is accorded even a minimum wage worker in this country that I take note. Even if no actual tax or labor law has been broken, in an age when the mere appearance of impropriety is enough to bring down a corporation or politician, surely the line has been crossed here. Subj: charlie Date: 96-02-28 16:40:21 EST From: Shridevi i have always been loyal to my friends in and out of siddha yoga. like i said, love is the most important thing. the pattern that seems to come back over and over is that as long as I am taking a clear stand about siddha yoga as an organization, those people that i love tell me i am bad company. yes, that makes me angry. it makes me sad. i am human. i also spent time being able to be both in and out of siddha yoga. i had no 'problem' with it because i was able to keep my distance from the politics. there is some wisdom in that, i think. and even though all those horrible things happened to me, I was able to move on and not have a chip on my shoulder. i give myself some credit since for many years this had a lasting effect on my ability to experience any kind of sexual arousal whatsoever. there were damages. but what has changed for me is that i began to put things together in a different way. i didn't separate 'the politics and the organization' from other things. i saw that as long as i didn't speak up, as long as i continued to go and sit in the back of the room, and chant and buy dhoop at the bookstore - i was in some way giving my energy to something that really should not be supported. so i stopped. i stopped for the sake of the women like myself who had to bear their shame in silence because everyone was willing to make the kinds of negotiations I myself was making. i see you making these negotiations and yes, it makes me mad, it makes me sad, i am human. and have been posting for two days now, and i'm also human enough to admit that i don't want to take my anger out on you. i would ask you also to please not judge me too harshly. i have not lost my love for the teachings. in fact, this is a chance to REALLY practice them. (like the story in the Don Juan books about the cat who had to finally be a cat to save his life.) It is easier to see god in the people you agree with. but for me, healing is not about the teachings from above, but being able to be human and see that in our willingness to simply be human, there is love and there is something sacred. Subj: it does suck Date: 96-02-28 16:45:36 EST From: Soloflyr11 i too lost a friend who felt reborn into sy when gurumayi just came through california. when we talked she was very angry at me and blamed me for her previous lack of involvement because of my outspoken doubts. she would not stop yelling at me. i tried to get her to calm down and talk, but when she refused to stop attacking me there was nothing left to do but hang up. it was very upsetting to me, i was trembling all over, but i also knew that i was moving on and our paths had to part. i was sad and i was pissed. but i also have no doubt that i have chosen the right direction in leaving, so if that means loosing yet another friend, well so be it. yes it does suck. my emotions regarding the incident did calm, though i'm sure i still have some pain and anger lurking in the shadows... when i left sy one of the hardest things was that i was loosing the wonderful sense of belonging and i was loosing almost all my friends. seems to be a common part of the leaving process and one of the most difficult, especially if *all* your friends were in sy. though it was not easy, i am *so* grateful i left cause i know that had i remained i would NOT have had the opportunity to grow in the ways that i have.... a friend told me a story of goethe's that went something like this. you walk down many roads in life and ocassionally there comes a time when you will need to go faster or slower or down a different road than the friend with whom you have been traveling. at that time you bid your friend goodbye and travel on. as you continue on your new path or at your new speed you will meet new friends on this new road that will become your new traveling companions ... of course that doesn't explain all relationships, but i did like the way it portrayed the need to "move on" and the fact that we *do* make new friends. and indeed as i move on, and on, and on, i make new friends along the way, always more suited to path i am currently traveling.... i'm sorry that somadatta feels it's necessary to leave but i do understand. it is difficult for me to listen to the brainwashing, i get angry, i get sad. at first i wished i never posted and got involved cause i felt myself getting sucked into the craziness that i had left behind. now i am rather enjoying the variety of things that are being posted in these sy folders and often feel grateful to those who are sharing their time, energy, thoughts and feelings. it's given me much to contemplate both from the content and from my own reactions and it has helped me in many ways in my healing process. i have also found that posting here has been a very healing for me, letting out some of these thoughts and feelings and hoping to help others. it even does in a small way give me a little communal satisfaction. i think i'll stick around a little longer.... solo Subj: Humorous healings 1/2 Date: 96-02-28 20:55:28 EST From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 2 W E L C O M E T O D E A R A B B E Y A N A N D A ********************** Dear Abbeyananda, A hydrophobic she-dog ripped my throat and the blood is spurting. I am without insurance, without pension, and near retirement age. All I have to show for the past thirty years is a couple of orange skirts and a cult-induced psychiatric condition. Ram Butler never mentioned this. What to do? Signed, Swami A-poorhouse-ananda Dear Swami A-poorhouse-ananda, You have fallen. You are wallowing in duality. Immediately assume the Sanmukhi Mudra. The Sanmukhi Mudra is when you block your eyes, ears, and nose with your fingers and palms in order to perceive nothing. Then stop thinking. Hold this position until further notice. Signed, Abbeyananda SEE PART 2 Subj: Humorous healings 2/2 Date: 96-02-28 20:57:37 EST From: Howie Sm PART 2 Abbeyananda's P. S. People in the Sanmukhi Mudra make spare change hiring out as one of the "see-no-evil, hear-no-evil, speak-no-evil" monkeys that Chidvilasananda reached for when asked if she and her brother were Siddhas (perfect beings) on November 26, 1982. Here are some excerpts. NOTE: The following excerpts are REALLY WHAT THEY SAID, including the reference to the three monkeys--except for where HSm butts in, which is set apart in parentheses and clearly labeled. Q. ARE YOU SIDDHAS? --Chidvilasananda places a wooden statue of the three monkeys in front of them.-- Nityananda: Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil; that's the answer. . . .So it is up to you to figure out what we are. We leave it up to you. (HSm says: HEY BOSS! NEWSFLASH! THE RESULTS ARE IN! WE'VE FINISHED FIGURING!) Q. WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO BOTH OF YOU, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT STATE YOU'RE IN? ARE YOU REALIZED? Chidvilasananda: It's such a wonderful question . . . (HSm says: MDSNMAN--quick! pass the barf bag! ! !) . . .Baba always said you cannot answer this question in words. You can only answer this question through action. (HowieSm says: Actions like cosmetic surgery or loot collecting? MDSNMAN--hurry up with that barf bag, would you--whoops, too late.) (HSm says: THOSE OF YOU WHO DIDN'T DESTROY THE NITYANANDA-POLLUTED FEBRUARY 1983 SIDDHA PATH, LIKE YOU WERE ORDERED TO, CAN GUZZLE THE REST OF THESE FOOTWATER ANSWERS.) Subj: Rharrison bergeron Date: 96-02-28 16:46:45 EST From: Shridevi THAT WAS IT! THAT WAS THE NAME OF THE STORY I READ. yes, a trot indeed. ya wanna know the truth? in this culture of which sy is also a concentrated metaphor, it DOES seem to be much harder to be creative and free thinking. i wouldn't be honest if i didn't say that, from my experience, there is a (subtle/structural/whatever) conspiracy against freedom. Subj: Re:to Mira about "Nit Jr." Date: 96-02-28 14:26:58 EST From: Dissent222 Telling the truth about the history of corruption, abuse and deception in Siddha Yoga, which has always been the case and continuest to this day, does not do harm. It is Muktananda's and Gurumayi's and Geo. Afif's corruption, abuse and deception that has harmed and continues to harm, even destroy, so many lives. Subj: Vasaguptacharya Date: 96-02-28 15:43:29 EST From: Shridevi I have personally experienced many of the allegations made by the people in the open letter. Sexual abuse, excommunication, violence. If you want to talk to me, you can send e-mail. 'Hard' evidence abounds but (like OJ) a perpetrator can still get off if they have good lawyers and people willing to double talk for them. I understand your frustration with the ranting and raving, but, as a young woman who was raped, and who was condemned and attacked and scapegoated for someone else's inability to own their desire (in the ashram, of course) - I find it to be an ultimately healing endeavor to finally take a moral stand. I wish that someone had taken a stand when I was still a child. Subj: Re:PROOF OF ABUSES Date: 96-02-28 15:49:51 EST From: Shridevi This is america. In America, money buys justice. Siddha Yoga has money. As a mere plebe in the relative scheme of things, I have experienced pretty painful things as a result of "taking a stand." I continue to take a stand of course, but for friends of mine who were more of a risk, their 'punishment' was greater. I watched them anguish and live their lives in fear. If we all came out, Siddha Yoga might not have a chance. Sort of like the student revolts and civil disobedience. If we all do it, they can't go after all of us. Frankly, I think we've come a long way and I think it is possible that someday more people will feel safe. But that will depend upon two things - many, not just a few people need to speak the truth (this is happening more and more) and also these people who speak out need to be supported. They need to know that others will not sit back and watch them fry. I will tell you everything I know. I will tell you who I am. I will tell you whatever you want to know. I don't care if you are a 'spy' even. But I'm not going to put my other friends at risk whom the ashram really IS out to get. Subj: you have a part too. Date: 96-02-28 16:04:41 EST From: Shridevi You have a part in this too. The swamis and vip's can't do it all. Your part is to read whatever you can get your hands on about this (New Yorker, Co-Evolution Quarterly, Common Boundary, Open Letter, Swami Abhayananda's letter (a SWAMI - there you go! and do you know what they did to HIM?) and books on cults if you wish) and then think for a minute and say to yourself "well, I can continue to call this all 'gossip' because i haven't yet seen the video of baba naked with so and so or whatever . . . or I can just use my common sense and support the people who are doing what they can." People are doing what they can. They have to do what is most efficient. They can't blow it. You already have experience with this in your life. For instance: if Ronald Regan tells you that he is supporting "freedom fighters" in Central America do you believe him because you don't have 'hard' evidence to the contrary? Every intelligent person knows that we have an imperialist goverment that is out to exploit the rest of the world. But they will always be seen as crazy for saying so. But if we all start just SAYING SO it won't sound so crazy after a while. Subj: Re:mira and thesis Date: 96-02-29 00:48:48 EST From: BREAD DR Funny, how all of you who seem to have "the" way, spend so much time trying to demonstrate the faults of other's systems. In the name of "teaching"? And where are you with your lives? Are you trying to demonstrate the traits that you aspire to? So many analyzing the words of others to find fault. I guess that is what I am doing, isn't it? Answer to Bread Dr: Where are we, the critics, with our lives? 'We are free of the mind control, battering, exploitation and deception of a corrupt, sadisitic guru. We are reclaiming our reality, our feelings, and our minds. We are living our own lives free of enslavement to con-artists. We are learning how to be active instead of passive and masochistic. We are taking some time in our lives to attempt to spare others the betrayal and devastation that we experienced. We are attempting to alert parents in SYDA to the fact that their young daughters are not safe from sexual abuse there, because their Guru will not protect them, she will only protect the abusers - whom she is one of. So that's where we are with our lives. It feels really good. Subj: Re: Shridevi Date: 96-02-29 01:19:12 EST From: CHIKKAR Shridevi, I am not a spy, only a seeker of truth. I apologize that you thought I was trivializing your appalling experiences. As a feminist, I am outraged at the knowledge that ANYONE has been abused or raped or threatened with violence. All I am asking is for people to concretely share the facts with others so that we can make educated decisions re our future in this yoga organization. In no way was I suggesting that your story is untrue. I was mainly interested in finding other sources of disclosure re said issues. I have read the open letter, the swami's letter, the New Yorker, and the package GM distributed in 1986-1986, regarding her brother. I also read the coevolution quarterly article and purchased a kit from cult awareness. My only problem with this board has been the fact that pusilanimous commentary has taken space away from honest research and disclosure. Many of the comments in recent weeks have been comic relief. A subject so serious should be explored as such. I was not aware of a *list* until presently. I had heard of verbal threats but did not realize the severity you speak of. Forgive my ignorance. Anyone out there wiling to share? Chikkar Subj: CHIKKAR & pusillanimity Date: 96-02-29 10:36:16 EST From: Howie Sm Chikkar, Q. Why don't people disclose evidence and their identities online? Why are they, to use your word, posting "pusillanimously"? A. Because they don't want to wake up one day with a Lebanese screwdriver stuck into their eye socket. Chikkar, your post begs the question--"tell your story online Chikkar, what evidence do you have?" But I do not ask it, for I would hate to see you have to sell your house, car, whatever, to pay for legal fees when it becomes a zombie army's seva to "get you." But that's not why I'm writing now. I want to say to you, cut some slack for the plural forms of expression here: humor, anger, Charlieism, legalistic bantering. Many have explored your boy/girl-scout approach to whistle-blowing and a search for justice. I endorse the approach fully. But it's a tough road. Try it yourself. It's a long haul, and you'll hit many brick walls. You will also become a target. You are 100% right: formal disclosure, evidence, and due process are an appropriate focus for certain kinds of ethical ends. So, you ask, why all this other talk on the chat boards, talk you find irrelevant or perhaps even disturbing? The answer is: for those who have been through the SYDA meat-grinder, other kinds of expression having to do with recovery become important. Their talk may not sound important to you, but it's important to them. This board is living evidence that the sheer existence of a free speech area is enormously liberating for some ex-SYDAites, people whose lives matter, people who were hitherto consigned to silent exile. My sense is that people here (some of whom write me privately but seldom post) gravitate towards the kind of expression that suits them. So we have a mixed bag of expression online. There should be a mixture of SYDA apologists, dissenters, and outsiders; a mixture of ranters, comedians, philosophers, zombies; a mixture of realists, idealists, and Marxists. After all, this is an AOL chat area! There should be plural threads running simultaneously, love fests, flame wars, people leaving in a huff, people wanting the information number to SYDA foundation. This plurality is healthy. I say let it stand. I also say stick with your boy scout approach, for it is an important one. But the fact is, no one (that I am aware of) has the financial resources to take on the SYDA foundation--yet. But if we all stick with it, as Shridevi suggests, the truth will eventually come out. The legal system is expensive: it is easy to discredit and silence moderately wealthy people who have a lawyer when you are an ENORMOUSLY wealthy multinational corporation with a legal staff. Especially if you are a corporation that doesn't conduct any ACTUAL business to speak of, but merely exists as a slave machine for the psycho-fantasies of a snitty boss-woman. Subj: Re:Rabbit story flaw Date: 96-02-29 15:29:46 EST From: Robert193 The following excerpt is from "Leaving the Ashram" in the July/August 1992 issue of Common Boundary. One section of the article tells the story of Jim and Dodie, a couple who for many years were leaders in the John-Roger cult. This little excerpt exposes the flaw in attempting to apply the Rabbit story to what is happening in this forum. ================== For months [after leaving the cult], Jim and Dodie talked nonstop -- to a few close friends who had left the group with them and to eachother, late into the night. They talked to sort out what was true from what was false in their experience, to review, in the light of their new awareness, encounters from nine years in the movement. Once Jim saw how foolish he had been to place his trust in John-Roger's claims to spiritual superiority, he was overcome by rage. "I was furious for a long time. I went around the house screaming about how I'd been duped...." The very fact that Jim could feel duped was a breakthrough of sorts, because it meant rejecting the sacrosanct Insight philosophy that "you create your own reality." (In the seminar, participants shake admonishing fingers at one another and say, "Unh unh unh.... don't be a victim.!") Now Jim came to see how that philosophy blinded group members to spiritual fraud. One could never get anywhere by accusing the guru -- of controling and infantilizing his followers, for instance -- because the others in the group would simply nod their heads knowingly and say that it was one's own fault for giving up one's power. This kind of shame the victim logic, abhorrent in cases of child abuse, seemed to be business as usual in MSIA, according to Jim. ================== Subj: Zombieproof post to Shridevi Date: 96-02-29 19:20:50 EST From: Howie Sm **********ZOMBIES, DON'T BOTHER, FOR YOU WILL FIND THIS INDIGESTIBLE************ Dear Shridevi, Your posts are fabulous, and open up new areas for us all to consider. In the course of my travels, I uncovered much abuse in spiritual organizations. Also, I had to listen to SO MUCH ROT. I'm sure you know what I mean on both these points. One thing is clear: any future intelligent society will look back on our times as the dark ages of spiritual inquiry. We have indifferent and underfunded scientists on one hand, and throwback fanatics on the other. So what has not yet taken place is: a frank investigation of so-called "religious experience." Yes, the future will probably see this as the dark ages in the field of consciousness--a wasteland of pop fanaticism and narcissistic consumerism. Ironically, the dead-end road of pop-spiritual consumerism is founded on the myth that we are now in the Aquarian age of consciousness-pioneering! It could be such an Aquarian age--if people would drop the dark, culturally-tinted paradigms, paradigms that were developed in cultures in which women and whole classes of people were systematically treated as sub-human. You are right in describing SYDA as a metaphor, a microcosm. Few things are more interesting than power structures: how behaviors and thought-systems coalesce within the crucible of power dynamics. There is nothing special about SYDA--what is seen there can be found in any totalizing ideological power structure. Permit me a biological analogy: SYDA is like a primitive organism that is suitable for dissection precisely because of its simplistic makeup. In being primitive and simplistic, it shows the chief issues of human nature in relief, without the confounding presence of intricate or subtle structures. This involves one of the paradoxes well known to medical research: Intelligent researchers, interested in learning about intelligent life, begin by studying dumb life. So SYDA provides a rich field for investigation. Though I am sympathetic to metaphysics and epistemology, in my view, a perverted emphasis on these subjects are to blame for the blind eye the spiritual sheep have turned towards rampant abuses of power. Narcissistic metaphysical people are zombie-stooge fodder for any Hitler type that comes down the pike. The way SYDA easily cranks out zombie-stooges should raise the eyebrows of political scientists, even if one accepts that SYDA is just a harmless microcosm--a freakish cul-de-sac within the larger scheme of society in general. Striving for a zombie mindset is a defense mechanism gone awry, a last refuge for those who have found their individual dreams too difficult to negotiate in the bright light of competitive realities, and who have therefore lost faith in the possibilities of a self-defined lifestyle. We should all find zombifying ideologies unacceptable, we should all celebrate (wo)man's ability to redefine him-herself. This is of course what you have been talking about, in both revealing the truth about SYDA while also pointing to how those revelations apply to the world outside SYDA. Thanks for your posts. Subj: Bob-SYDA as employer Date: 96-02-29 19:51:08 EST From: Howie Sm Bob, you say about discarded sevites <<>> Bob, how did a sane person like you find a crazy place like these AOL folders? Bob, you are ONE HAPPENING DUDE. People are caught up in worrying about whether GM and George are rolling in the hay when they should be looking at the INSTITUTIONALIZED ABUSE you describe that THEIR LEADER IS OBVIOUSLY AWARE OF. People dwell on disproving the hay-rolling because it has to do with their fragile, idealized, infantile fantasies about "goo-goo maya." They don't care about THE ECONOMIC REALITY OF what happens to the sevites that are serving them! Perhaps they would say: "that wasn't my experience." But if they really cared about OTHER PEOPLE--if they really believed in the GOLDEN RULE--they would have noticed this INSTITUTIONALIZED ABUSE that you are describing a long time ago. Proofseeking SYDA apologists--how are you going to explain away or discredit what Bob is saying? There is no way to get around this one. Subj: Bread Dr Date: 96-03-01 15:26:14 EST From: Shridevi I would like to respond to your message about those of us who think we have "the" way. I think you were referring to those of us who are pretty sure SY is not "the" way and I am one of those, so . . . It's important to be able to observe a process going on underneath the content, as you have done in your post. And to turn your observations around on your own behavior shows a lot of integrity. When I was sexually abused as a young woman in Siddha Yoga, no one seemed to be able to do that. Observations about the process were not allowed. So after having been violated and feeling frightened and alone - I was then blamed, scapegoated. That was "the" way it was. Whore was the only observation that was accepted. Other observations would have been too threatening. (I'm repeating things most people know in case you haven't read that far back in this folder.) None of my friends would talk to me anymore after that incident. And yet, I was stuck. My father made the decision to send me to india. I would wake up at 4:00 in the morning and young ashram women would wait for me and call me slut while I walked by. Still, there was no context for my experience. I did not know that many many other young women where experiencing the same shame at the hands of my guru. If I had known that, if my family had known that, the insanity would have stopped. That is why I speak out now. It is not because I have "the" way. But whatever I was doing for 20 years of my life was not "the" way, as far as I can tell and yes, I would rather that others not have to experience what I did. ((And by saying that SY is not "the" way, I am in no way trying to invalidate the genuine spiritual experiences people have as a result of those teachings and those practices. But the money that we spent to do those practices was going to support a lot of not so spiritual things. )) Don't hesistate to criticize what you see here, though. This is not a new ideology to replace the old one. At least for me. warmly, shridevi Subj: spiritual experiences Date: 96-03-01 15:49:23 EST From: Shridevi These questions that are coming up are very interesting to me. The organization issue (at least for me) seems fairly black and white. The question about our inner experiences is another thing altogether. One thing that seems true for me is that the simple fact of large numbers of people putting there energy into one thing really intensifies the whole process. Now, this is probably true of Nuremberg rallies as it is of saptah purnahutis. But I miss the opportunity to chant with others, to meditate with others. I really miss it. I have had bodywork sessions where I feel the kind of energy in my body that I felt around Baba. Much more intense, actually. That was a big revelation, and that energy has stuck around. But i don't cultivate it right now because i'm fasting from "spirituality." i just don't want to DO anything "spiritual" for a while. If i have a "spiritual" experience, I let it go immediately, though not all that consciously. It has something to do with not feeding distinctions between sacred and ordinary. Not wanting to chase after a certain 'state', even subtly, anymore. Exhaustion? who knows. what are other people's experience? Subj: Re:CHIKKAR & pusillanimity Date: 96-03-01 07:47:51 EST From: Howie Sm Dear Chikkar, Thanks for your messages. I understand better where you are coming from, and wanted to retract my last message to you in light of Dissent222's recent message about information disclosure and sharing. When I first got online here, I knew A LOT already about SYDA's abuses. At first I thought I might learn yet more from people in cyberspace, but what I encountered instead was a parade of zombies lunging for my liver. For the longest time there just wasn't much to be gained in the direction of specific discussion of the realities in SYDA. Dreary and predictable Rube Goldberg yogaspeak defense mechanisms click away in these folders much of the time. So I know exactly what you mean when you said "hey, would somebody do something about the signal to noise ratio?" I have resisted the impulse to give specific testimony and details online. There will be a time and a place for that. My feeling is, if people want to stay anonymous in AOL and not get specific about what they know, that's okay with me. That doesn't mean I'm not still curious. That doesn't mean that I don't feel like telling the specifics I know every day! My last message to you overstated the case for anonymity, so please ignore it. Dissent222's newest message is really the right tone to set. People who still have intact cerebrums should move towards sharing the truth about SYDA using appropriate efforts. Yours and Dissent's messages are a call to forming a better information network. That's what we should be doing. Both of you are 100% right. The public areas online aren't the greatest environment for sharing specific information, because of the distracting noise of fishheads flipping about on the deck. We still have people who say ludicrous things like "in SYDA, the good outweighs the bad. Are you sure you aren't just a victim of your own weaknesses?" Chikkar, I don't know if you have figured this out yet, but the simple fact is: SYDA is a BALDFACED CON THAT (TOS'S) PEOPLE'S LIVES AND MINDS, AND YOU DON'T NEED IT TO BE A YOGI(NI). I refuse to think that SYDA is what people "deserve," so even if the zombies don't like the feeling of having their brainwash stirred around, out of respect for their humanity WE ALL REALLY SHOULD STAND UP AND SAY what we know about SYDA in no uncertain terms (even if we are limited by the demands of anonymity). And even if it feels like teaching mathematics to a cockroach pressed in a book. Despite the zombie presence, online chat is still a great resource, and a way of putting people together who can then discuss things elsewhere, in an appropriate forum. Chikkar, thanks for helping refocus things in a productive way by calling for "hard copy." Your instincts are right on. Subj: armed with automatics Date: 96-03-01 08:51:21 EST From: Muktinanda reprint from article. >>After the speech, there was another surprise in store for some devotees. When some of them, more specifically the listless group who contemplated taking some action to 'rescue' Nityananda, approached him during darshan, Scott Wallace and some other foreigners forcibly asked them to sit down and not move away. After the crush of devotees was over, they were again forcibly made to accompany Wallace. Wallace led the protesting group of about a dozen devotees including a lady into an underground hall where intensive meditation sessions used to be held. The doors were closed and the foreigners numbering about six were now armed with automatics and threatened the Indians into standing against the wall. They stood there for about two hours, during which time they were denied water and toilet facilities. Later, Nityananda was brought into the hall by Wallace and he began to question the group about how, and who originated the rumours of his captivity. Even if the devotees, failed to perceive the irony of a swami speaking after publicly announcing a vow of silence, they did not fail to notice the grim reality of the situation. Nityananda was hardly carrying himself like the head of his order. He was all too obviously-behaving in accordance with the wishes of the gun-toting cabal in the room, which by now had increased to about 20.<< Subj: recent ideas Date: 96-03-01 16:18:40 EST From: Shridevi About everything that has been said lately here, let me underline that it feels good to have the opportunity to speak (type), disagree, be disagreed with, ask questions, offer answers, not like the answers, ask new questions, etc. etc. etc. This can only be more healthy than homogenizing our brainwaves to the same discourse. My comparison of SY to the Native tribe was not to be taken as an exact reflection, alike in everyway. The US Gov't does have more money still than SYDA and does still get away with more atrocious shit. And yes, it is more atrocious. Thank you for calling attention to that so that it does not seem to be trivialized. My purpose of comparing the two was to just say that the psychology of the people experiencing these forms of repression is similar and that our learning about SY can help us to understand what is going on in the world around us. And oh by the way, I have seen children being violently attacked and beaten by psycho 'nam vets in the ashram. That is why my mother told SriPati that if he ever talked to me she would have him arrested. Subj: institutional abuse Date: 96-03-01 15:58:38 EST From: Shridevi I agree with Howie agreeing with Bob about the economic reality of SY. I imagine that if Ram Butler, for instance, did not have a family to support, he might be able to think thoughts that his economic situation preclude. What would he do if he left, etc. etc. I met a family who was really involved and left SY. It took them months to save money on their staff stipend to do it, during which time they were more or less trapped in the insanity. It is sometimes hard to tell the true economic situation of the people that serve SYDA because, frankly, they all dress like they were unbelievably rich. I always assumed that these people were independently wealthy. Well, anyway . . . Subj: Re:institutional abuse Date: 96-03-01 20:58:28 EST From: Dissent222 GM gives her underpaid, underfed and ill-housed staff a yearly trip to Paramus, New Jersey, where they buy good looking clothes at a discount. So while they have no actual security in terms of the future, they at least look good. As long as they look good, Gurumayi doesn't have to be reminded that when she finally has to abandon them because her organization collapses, most of them will be penniless, middle-aged, and swindled. Subj: Shridevi/dosas and nerve gas Date: 96-03-01 21:26:49 EST From: Howie Sm Shridevi, You say <<>> Exactly--that's what I've been saying for years. Putting a related idea in SYDAesque terms, for the sake of comparison, we can contact the inner self, bliss, insights, yogic experiences, and all the rest WITHOUT NEEDING THE CONCEPTS: SYDA, GURUMAYI, OR BABA. Your story about bodywork I hear all the time. Network chiropractors all over this country see symptoms consistent with what SYDA calls "shaktipat" every day. That's citing just one of hundreds of contexts in which "shaktipat" can be seen. So SYDA has no copyright on either the philosophy or the experience. What does Baba have to do with the phrase "God dwells within you as you?" The answer is: nothing. Nothing more than I do, or you do. For some reason, people are too dependent to face this obvious fact. "Gratitude" has become SYDA's euphemism for a kind of sick, umbilical dependence that has nothing to do with pursuing spiritual freedom, and with proper remembrance of inspiring truths. It is part of their brainwashing shtick, part of how to keep people hooked for years--even after they sense that boss-lady is fishier than a week-old sushi-refuse dumpster. People learned yogic ideas from Shoko Asahara--the nerve-gas guru. Hitler had a utopian vision. Gurumayi's place makes good dosas. I can still like yogic ideas, utopian dreams, and dosas WITHOUT GOING FOR THE NERVE-GAS, HITLER, OR GURUMAYI. Subj: On psychotic relativism Date: 96-03-01 21:31:37 EST From: Howie Sm Charlie, you say <<>> There's relativism. Then there's psycho(tic)-relativism. "Nooorman! Nooooooooooorman!!!! yes mother . . . " (Alfred Hitchcock, we miss you) Subj: Re:spiritual experiences Date: 96-03-01 22:12:02 EST From: Dissent222 Shridevi - I also have stopped chasing spiritual experiences, and am in fact allergic to them for the time being. I prefer to focus on the love I feel for my family and they for me, on the day to day interactions I have with people, and on my work. Focusing on experiencing myself as possessing a center of initiative, with a mind, a heart and a will of my own, with my own skills and talents, values and ideals, feels really sublime -- especially after so many years of trying to fill and exchange myself for the illusion of a perfected guru/deity. Those years were kind of like being a heroin addict, with similar results. Now, I know that God and man are united at times, but that mostly they are separate; and that man cannot with any authenticity live in constant union with God. Man is often lonely for God, and must often bear the feeling of not being connected. To help him bear this spiritual loneliness, he has family and friends, the community he lives and works in. He turns to this community for sustenance. And in building strong bonds with family, friends and community, he brings himself closer to God, enjoying at special times a reunion with God, a feeling of intimacy that becomes more and more precious each time because it is fleeting. But if one person in this community of men and women claims to be in constant union with God, and demands total obedience from the rest, and says in one way after another, "love only me, forget everything and everyone else," then that person is a liar and a thief. Subj: Chikkar/Howie's a moderate Date: 96-03-01 21:21:44 EST From: Howie Sm Chikkar, Thanks for the messages. You've opened up a new topic. I sense that you view my position, or perhaps some of the other dissenters' position, as extreme. If this is so, you have fundamentally misread what is being said by dissenters here. You are as wrong as can be, and some might even see it as a slap in the face of those in recovery. To some I know who have been really hurt, to be called "extreme" is a painful, discrediting jab, for it indicates to them that their point has been missed. Some of them may lose heart, and stop trying to convey the important message about SYDA that they have. So it is important that we understand the dissenting position. Specifically, it is important that we understand how fundamentally moderate and commonsensical it is. What is being said here is--to participate at all in SYDA is to be an accomplice in something unethical. If you are against rape, etc., vote with your feet. That is all we are saying. This is a moderate, and reasoned view--a view that is free of the extremism and fanaticism that goes with brainwashing. Here's another moderate idea. We don't need to sacrifice one iota of spirituality when we walk free of SYDA! God can reach us wherever we are. All the beautiful things that go with a spiritual life remain with us. You must agree that this is not an extremist stance at all. If you have faith in God's omnipresence, there is really no reason to support, either actively or passively, the corrupt SYDA colossus. To say this is quite moderate, and consistent with common-sense ethics. So that is my position. If it's okay with you, read on. What if someone knows the above, BUT STILL PARTICIPATES IN SYDA? OR ENDORSES IT? One view is: they are "evil," or "criminal" (or whatever term you care to use for this concept). One might think they are intentionally supporting sick people doing sick things. But a VERY MODERATE view would give them the benefit of the doubt. That is my view. My view is, they aren't evil people at all. My view is, there is something that is impairing their ability to see clearly. So a moderate person would say: "they are, in effect, brainwashed; something has adversely affected their ethical core in a life-transforming way." Another moderate idea is: don't walk away with what you know, but communicate it as best you can. What could be easier than just keeping quiet, and letting newcomers and others just fall into SYDA's propaganda trap? A moderate person would say--"that's too selfish. Why not spend a little effort putting up a warning sign here and there?" The dissenters hold the moderate view. Only a SYDA apologist would take it to be extreme. If you still have suspicions that we are extreme, contemplate this: "siddha--perfect human being; one who has attained the state of unity awareness; who experiences himself as all-pervasive and who has achieved mastery over his senses and their objects." Given what I think you know, what should a moderate person's reaction to this be, with respect to SYDA? I trust you will see that the moderate position is my position. Subj: Re:institutional abuse Date: 96-03-01 22:16:23 EST From: Bob1258487 Thank you for shedding light on the poverty issue! It's the little details that really tell the story and they are usually overlooked. Paramus, NJ, indeed! Probably some cheesy outlet stores, I assume? It is truly sad that when innocent people donate their time and effort for a spiritual goal, they can be thoroughly taken for a ride. Americans have always been great volunteers - that's one of their best qualities. But plenty of cults have found out what a goldmine freely given labor is, and thoroughly abuse it. I've heard stories of just how stingy SYDA is with their cash - they would rather put some poor ashramite through almost anything than pay an outsider to do the job. It's one thing for people to volunteer a few hours or even days a week - it's quite another to allow or encourage them to give up many years of their lives without real pay or benefits, and to isolate them from "normal" society and support systems. Surely they stretch the concept of a "scholarship" or a "stipend" with all its educational overtones past the traditional definition. Free labor is being used to create elaborate renovations and improvements to the ashram that increase its equity. This is just underpaid labor - it's no education. Subj: shame the victim logic Date: 96-03-01 23:13:24 EST From: Shridevi Here is a new twist on the shame the victim logic that was quoted in the "leaving the ashram" article. It is called "empathy for the victim." If anyone has had similar experiences or has insights, I would appreciate hearing them. Especially experiences. This past fall I went to the GM program to say goodbye to a community that, though I deeply loved, I could no longer participate in. I sat down. I listened to Durgananda tell me to put my intellect aside because it would only get in my way. I smiled at the transparency of their tech. GM walked in the room. A wave of hysteria went through the crowd. I cried. Yes, despite myself, I cried. It was amazing to see the group thing at work, how powerful it is, even still. I listened to her talk. It was TOO LONG. I listened to her sing. I was embarrassed for her. I went up for darshan (don't have any idea why exactly, except to complete the ritual of separation) There was my boyfriend from college (who told me that my sexuality dragged his sadhana down) sitting where George used to be. I freaked. I realized this was a dangerous place for me. I felt horrible for being 'angry' in the darshan line. All this repressive stuff. I was weeping. Strangers tried to comfort me. I left with my friend (psychotherapist/devotee). She said, "Oh S. I'm so sorry. You've been so shamed." She said it with a lot of empathy. She was sincere in her own way. It was days later that I finally said to myself, "like, if I hadn't been shamed would I be OK with all that?" There is a vritti that bubbles up from time to time that suggests that healthy, independent, properly distanced people should not be reactive about SY. I mourn the loss of the good things in SY. I am no longer pathologized for being 'seductive' but for being 'paranoid' or 'wounded.' Anybody have any thoughts? 1¾«SB†˜˜˜˜˜™Subj: empathy for the victim Date: 96-03-02 08:52:17 EST From: Dissent222 Shridevi - You speak of your friend expressing to you how shamed you have been. She is of course NOT expressing how sadistic, manipulative, and abusive your abusers were - and how cowardly and selfish those who said nothing and protected the abusers are. Empathy for the victim is fine; what about indignation and action against the perpetrator? Or are we afraid of asserting ourselves beyond our dependent, symbiotic clinging, our magical thinking? Do we need to neutralize everything with philosophy, so that, like Charley, we live in a void? The average devotee who hears stories about syda and refuses to attend to them is obviously displaying the way they have been controlled and deceived by the group leaders. But there are many in the group who have crossed the line; they know they are lying and that they are accomplices to a criminal. The longer they pretend not to know, the more they become the property of the guru. And of course, the guru can do whatever she wants with her personal property - including dispose of it any time she feels like it. Subj: Larry's call to Gurumayi Date: 96-03-02 09:07:42 EST From: Howie Sm Larry, you say <<<**Gurumayi, if your really out there reading these posts, please comment on them online!**>>> Larry, when I read this it warmed my heart. It said to me, "Larry is really a sincere person." The fact that you could actually believe she would respond to direct inquiry indicates that you aren't aware of the situation in SYDA; your ignorance (in a way) makes you less of an accomplice. You must not know her at all. Yet I stick to my position that--even if inadvertently--apologists are accomplices. In my opinion, your insistence that there is a "baby" in SYDA's bathwater (a baby that calls for a preservation of the organization) is an apologist stance. Apologists send the wrong signals to newcomers and onlookers. Apologists are pawns in SYDA's campaign of false advertising. Obviously she won't answer questions straightforwardly in any forum or context. If you want a quick lesson in SYDA, go up in darshan and ask her any of the questions MDSNMAN posted a while back. I know people who have been FORCIBLY AND IMMEDIATELY ejected for simply asking her why she doesn't talk to her family. I trust you will do the right thing when you figure out what's going on. But until you do, you are an accomplice, and that's not good. Subj: Re:Larry's call to Gurumayi Date: 96-03-02 13:08:13 EST From: Shridevi Now Howie, I'm going to put my two cents in here. Ready? K. "Not throwing the baby out with the bathwater" can have several interpretations, and Larry's mind is ever in flux just like the rest of evolution so how do we know for sure which interpretation to attack if we don't ASK him first? As a strategy, if we are going to convert all these fence sitting people to our great understanding, we should probably use tactics that don't alienate them unecessarily. I agree with you about SY apologists, but, if your relentless humor has had an effect, maybe Larry is in a new place, who knows? Do you think Larry REALLY thought GM would comment on-line, or maybe he was just being rhetorical and sarcastic like you! Or maybe he was appealing to her human side, however buried it is under a strange mix of sociopathy and spiritual inflation. Planting a seed. I have a friend, the friend to finally helped me off the fence, who went up to Gurumayi at the Thanksgiving satsang and told her he sincerely hoped she would get it together. He has no illusions about her, I assure you. Gurumayi, after all, grew up with one hell of a set of influences. She was just like me, a young girl. Yet she came from a completely male dominated culture and had much less protection from the mind and body of the sexist, totalitarian, pedophile patriarch known as Muktananda. People who knew her as Malti say she was one of THE most insecure person they ever met. I wonder why?? Does anyone know for sure if she was sexually abused by Baba? Does anyone besides me think the chances are pretty good? Sexual abuse and bulimia usually go hand in hand. I am NOT apologizing for Siddha Yoga or Gurumayi by suggesting that it is not totally pathological to have compassion for her. She needs therapy, not to be running that organization. It is sad that she is so entrenched that she'll never be free of the shit she has created. I've done some pretty bad shit to people in my life (nowheres near . . . of course) and entrenched myself too and it was damn hard to be human and admit what I had done and come clean. I'm not making excuses for her behavior. All I am saying is this. As a person who is now free to think my own thoughts, I am free to muse about GM's humanity as well. I have a friend in jail. He is a black man. AIDS. Crack addict. Kidnapped my other friend. Beat her up -violent, scarey. Bad. I'm not apologizing for this, but I don't cease to see him as a human. I see that if he was a white man, he would be treated for MPD and not be dying in prison. Anyway, as a pluralist, I'm sure you can appreciate the plea for polyvocal non-totalizing discourse. :) later, s. Subj: the baby and the bathwater Date: 96-03-02 13:29:21 EST From: Shridevi when i first left SY, actually off and on since then, throwing the baby out with the bathwater means: I can't hear anybody talk about anything "spiritual" no matter how sincere and unconnected to SY because it makes me barf, makes me feel rage, makes me cry. i don't have any connection with anything divine or sacred whatsoever in my own private life. i feel totally cut off from even the Planet. Mother Earth being the only deity I would even try to supplicate at this point. I can't meditate for five minutes without screaming at the absolute top of my lungs. I have so much hatred for all people whose faith has not been trashed and feel that it is totally unfair what has happened to me. I am isolated from every friend who does have a spiritual life of their own. That is for me what throwing the baby out with the bathwater meant. Now, for me, not throwing the baby out with the bath water means being able to meditate for five minutes, being able to reclaim my relationship to the divine, being able to listen to another human being talk about their spiritual experiences without throwing up on them, etc. etc. it has nothing to do with being an apologist. i think that there is an impulse, generally felt behind the "screen" (no pun intended) of this forum that wants to also understand, OK - so I leave Siddha Yoga in the dust, so WHAT ABOUT MY RELATIONSHIP TO GOD. And that is not an apologist question, in my mind. thank you for listening. Subj: Embarrassing, isn't it? Date: 96-03-02 19:26:01 EST From: Howie Sm *************THE FOLLOWING IS ZOMBIE-APPROVED****************** Why can't Howie "chill"? I of course understand that, for example, the notion of a "zombie" is at best a shorthand for a larger spectrum of types. And of course I am capable of drawing finer distinctions in discourse--you probably can guess that. Nonetheless, I sincerely feel that my free-wheeling approach to this board is not only the most appropriate rhetorical stance to take--it is the most psychologically healthy for all parties. While always taking care to be clear and honest, what's wrong with just opening up and airing out the stable of musty metaphysics, and waving aside the smoke-screen of backpedaling qualifications? Psychological health requires one to quickly cut the gordian knots of denial and rationalization, instead of trying to cater to and mimic its labyrynthine twists. One point about "appearances," and how strong rhetoric--such as mine or Dissent's--is the soap for washing away false appearances. I, over the years, have had proved to me over and over again this fact: while knowledge of abuses seems to have little effect on disciples, the "loss of face in the eyes of others" has a big effect. (This itself is a sad testimony on the egotism of the SYDAites, but that's another subject.) The obsession with appearances was well illustrated by the reaction to the New Yorker article. People who knew of certain abuses early on but didn't change their attitudes towards SYDA, DID CHANGE their attitudes when the New Yorker article came out publicizing the VERY SAME INFORMATION. Why? Because of the embarrasment they felt in the eyes of others. The New Yorker was a magazine that their larger social group was aware of. Their coworkers in offices, their extended family members, their employers, all see the New Yorker. These disciples, who had perhaps once flaunted their spirituality in their SYDA honeymoon period, suddenly had to face their social group--knowing full well that their social group had been informed by a credible source that SYDA was a cesspool of weirdoism. The loss of face, the failure to maintain "appearances" had an effect that the simple knowledge of allegations didn't. Indeed, SYDA Foundation's obsession with maintaining appearances is a reflection of the appearance-driven engines of their disciples. (Makeup and saris for women, suits for men . . .) Because the SYDAesque way of discrediting critics only works on SYDAites and not on outsiders, the disciples had to just simmer in the embarrasment that followed the appearance of the New Yorker. They couldn't go up to their boss and say "you believe the New Yorker because of your ego." This simmering really cured a lot of people. In other words, more than the substance of the allegations, the embarrasment in the knowledge that the allegations were known by others had an effect. Although this scenario is of course not what everyone went through, it was what A LOT OF PEOPLE went through. I know this from testimony. When someone catches a glimpse of themselves as others see them, often that is a turning point. Embarrasment from the New Yorker gave many that glimpse. Anyway, just holding a mirror up to SYDAites is certainly a responsible way of engaging the issues of SYDA. Why Howie's rhetoric?: to accurately conjure up the ludicrous appearance of SYDA calls for strong rhetoric. Now is certainly not the time for euphemism and whitewash. Subj: Re:recent ideas Date: 96-03-02 19:17:37 EST From: Bob1258487 And I'd like to bring up someone else - NamDev Hayes. I hear from someone still in Siddha Yoga that he just left. Anyone know why or where he is? Subj: Re:institutional abuse Date: 96-03-02 08:42:08 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Dissent tells us that for appearance's sake, Gurumayi reclothes the slaves--the overworked, financially-castrated laborers at SYDA--at Paramus New Jersey annually. These folk are discarded at middle-age, ruined. I don't know why, but I instinctively found this message to be one of the most devastating indictments of SYDA I've ever read. Somehow it captured the real flavor of what makes SYDA tick. When thinking why it struck me so, a few thoughts came to mind. 1. These people are subjected to total control, by a total control freak. 2. These people have become completely infantilized. 3. The "guru" who manipulates and controls them doesn't really care about them or their futures. It's a sick, loveless situation. 4. The casual, nonresidential devotees are selfish accomplices. I'm talking about you--you know who you are. Your little SYDA fun and fantasy is off the backs of abused sevites. When any of you play "house" at the centers (center = zombie recruitment facility) you are an accomplice. Where is your empathy for others? Shame on you. So you got straight A's after meditating. Do you think your Momma's going to be proud of you after reading your messages on this AOL board? Didn't you read how the devotees ostracized Shridevi? It's not just one or two bad apples--the whole thing is sick. Lining up devotees against the wall under threat of automatic weapons? Apologists, can't you feel anything anymore except your own narcissistic urges? Has the razzle-dazzle of "seeing the blue pearl" asphyxiated your conscience? Accomplices--I mean you--where is your self-respect? We all have fond memories from the past. Wouldn't it be nice if some of the people who went through SYDA could have fond memories that weren't so utterly tainted? Some prison-camp survivors have reported fond memories of isolated experiences in the camps. That doesn't mean we should start a fund to reinstate Auschwitz. That doesn't mean there is a "baby" in the Auschwitz "bathwater" that we should carefully try to preserve. GET REAL! You casual seekers are parasites, sucking nutrients for your own narcissistic experiential fantasies without giving one thought to the human cost of SYDA. How can any self-respecting person read the recent messages and still argue that their "experiences" justify the continuation of that sick place? I don't get it. For shame! I beg you all--reflect on this. Enough is enough. SYDA has just got to go. It's basic design chews people up and spits them out. Apologists, where is your self-respect? Are you all really so brainwashed that you can't empathize with others? Doesn't anyone feel anything in their hearts anymore? Subj: more shame Date: 96-03-02 12:32:51 EST From: Soloflyr11 dear shridevi, enuf already you've got my head spinning with thoughts. only kidding, i'm loving it. seriously though you really touch me with your stories and feelings. reading yours and others posts has just brought up so much for me, i have that sensation that i don't even know where to begin. i thought i was more "over this", but what i'm seeing from my reactions to the posts is that i still have some "unfinished business". yet it's funny 'cause just as much as i've discovered the corners where there is still much pain and anger i have also been delighted to be able to see that indeed i really have moved on. when i think of the pain and confusion that i felt when i first left sy 7 years ago, i am very pleased to realize how far i've come. in time i've gotten my footing and my discrimination and am now enjoying my continued march down the long and winding road.... one little story before i have to go. in the middle 80's, being with the tour, we were in a particular city where an old lover of mine lived. since the relationship ended badly i called her and to my delight we were able to laugh and lift massive weights off of both of our shoulders. i went back to my room, and in sharing my elation with my roomates i got fed up wording things "carefully" and said in passing that i had been bisexual (before being a celibate) so i could stop avoiding the word "she". well one of the roomates freaked out (unbeknownst to me) and went to pat mcgee who went to gurumayi. next thing i know gurumayi passes me in a large group and starts yelling at me that if i don't learn to control my mouth i'll be off the tour. let's talk about shaming.... seconds after she finished "busting" me george joins the fun and says in utter disgust and then followed by laughter that i was no better than a dog, dogs did *that*. all this because i merely said that i was bisexual. what kind of a world was i living in? i was pretty devastated, not just because they did this so publicly, and not because of what they were saying about me, but because my heart felt completely torn apart . gurumayi was everything for me and now i was beginning to face the possiblity that i might someday have to leave (i mean she even said it). i kept this agony to myself, afterall who could i share it with, and besides "controling my tongue" was the thing she specifically busted me for.... anyway, just thought some of you might like hearing another concrete story of how the guru works.... later, solo p.s. i realize i loose anonymity when i tell specific stories, some one may have been present or who knows maybe even gurumayi sees these posts, but ya know what.... swaha Subj: Re:more shame Date: 96-03-02 13:22:20 EST From: Shridevi SWAHA It does seem that SY is remarkably Calvinist, now doesn't it. If only the people who thought my sexuality at age 14 was threatening only knew me now!!!!!!!!!!! sorry you had to go through that. love, shridevi. at we should carefully try to preserve. GET €SBw-/ ^ -- Çàiïó:^› ïàTïP^‰Eï E0v^V^èv^²`^^^V^--èt^³w!v^²/w!îÈÈÎ`-7,`€Ÿÿÿ½ÿÿÖÿÿØÿÿäÿÿæÿÿ4ÿÿƒÿÿÑÿÿÿÿeÿÿ²ÿÿÿÿPÿÿ—ÿÿáÿÿ0ÿÿzÿÿÉÿÿÿÿÿÿ9ÿÿWÿÿpÿÿrÿÿ{ÿÿ}ÿÿ†ÿÿˆÿÿÕÿÿëÿÿíÿÿ;ÿÿƒÿÿÒÿÿÿÿ^ÿÿªÿÿïÿÿ;ÿÿ;Šÿÿªÿÿ¬ÿÿôÿÿ@ ÿÿ‹ ÿÿØ ÿÿî ÿÿð ÿÿ; ÿÿ| ÿÿ~ ÿÿ€ ÿÿ¤ ÿÿ ÿÿÛ ÿÿÝ ÿÿ ÿÿ ÿÿ_ ÿÿ_ ¨ ÿÿó ÿÿ ÿÿ ÿÿX ÿÿ¥ ÿÿ¹ ÿÿ» ÿÿÿÿAÿÿCÿÿÿÿÝÿÿ)ÿÿSÿÿUÿÿ¢ÿÿïÿÿ7ÿÿ9ÿÿ9†ÿÿÒÿÿÿÿkÿÿºÿÿÿÿOÿÿsÿÿuÿÿÄÿÿÿÿZÿÿÿÿ‘ÿÿÞÿÿ-ÿÿPÿÿRÿÿœÿÿëÿÿëþÿÿÿÿOÿÿ›ÿÿçÿÿ,ÿÿ.ÿÿzÿÿ™ÿÿ›ÿÿ£ÿÿ¥ÿÿ©ÿÿ«ÿÿ­ÿÿÐÿÿîÿÿÿÿ ÿÿVÿÿVqÿÿsÿÿ¿ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿbÿÿuÿÿwÿÿÂÿÿùÿÿûÿÿJÿÿRÿÿTÿÿŸÿÿØÿÿÚÿÿ(ÿÿ*ÿÿ*oÿÿqÿÿ¾ÿÿ Subj: Re:Embarrassing, isn't it? Date: 96-03-03 03:07:50 EST From: Howie Sm Dear Larry, Greetings yet again! I write to you in the hope that we can both talk on the same subject instead of past each other, on different subjects. If we are too disagree (or agree), let's know what it is we disagree about! Your attendance at centers has nothing to do with my characterization of you as an apologist. It is your posts that have formed my opinion. Regardless of whether we (you or me) go to the centers or ashrams, the fact of our sustained presence on the SYDA folders online reveals that we are both quite connected to SYDA issues. Otherwise, we would post on sundry folders instead of returning again and again to the SYDA folders. We both feel the need to make quasi-public representations about what we think SYDA is. So on some level, we are both SYDA people, and need to accept responsibility for the positions we espouse. If we weren't both SYDA people of some kind, why would this debate be so sustained? I'll drop the word apologist for now, since it seems to be a source of both misunderstanding and friction. Without talking about anyone's experiences (which I do not dispute) answer me this: do you think the SYDA Foundation should be disbanded? Social responsibility sometimes requires us to make decisions. To make a decision is not black-and-white thinking at all, and can involve the juggling a lot of complex issues, and the exercising of careful judgment. Taking a stand is difficult, but nonetheless vital if one is to translate ethics into action. So I ask you, as a socially responsible person, in your best judgment, do you think the SYDA foundation should be disbanded? Subj: To Solo on Shame Date: 96-03-03 03:38:29 EST From: Dissent222 Solo- Thanks so much for disclosing your painful memory here. I too was shamed by GM and Afif, repeatedly for years, for whatever they could learn about me that they knew would be maximally hurtful. My room was bugged and my roommates fed GM information about me. Private confessions I made in letters to GM ended up being repeated in The Month Long Course. Afif routinely read GM's personal mail. In the Month Long Course, he had all the speakers with mini-receivers in their ears, and he broadcast what to say to them. They simply repeated what he was telling them - Ishwarananda, Durgananda, Robin, etc. Can you believe that GM gets a confession from me one night in a letter and the next day, Afif is referring to it in the Month Long Course, transmitting it to Ishwarananda for him to repeat? Think of how utterly invasive this is. And it happens all the time in syda talks. Afif and GM both use the techniques of the rapist - to induce a state of helplessness in the victim through fear, and then violate. I know many many others who share similar experiences of being violated by them in this way. And to think that we were so deceived as to allow them to say and do these kinds of things to us and imagine it was for our own good, when in fact it was for no purpose other than sadistic control, like any other rapist or batterer. Why do they behave in this way? The thing I finally understood was that there is no reason other than lust for power, which includes making others helpless and controlling them, just for the fun of it. That is the one and only reason - compulsive greed and lust for power is the engine Afif and GM run on. This ties in with the baby and bathwater debate. What is the baby here? Seeing God in each other? If that's the baby, then I agree, don't throw it out. But GM, her accomplices, the trustees and staff that are willing to tell any lie to protect her? The organization and its leaders that has become unspeakably wealthy while systematically subjecting young girls to sexual abuse, others to emotional abuse, and defrauding so many others of so much time, energy and money? That stuff belongs in the sewer and can't go down the drain fast enough for me. We can preserve for ourselves what is worth saving in terms of our spiritual beliefs. We have to, because once you turn your back on Gurumayi, at best, the supposedly loving and respecting syda community prays for your return to the fold; usually, though, they just leave you for dead and vilify your name. Subj: Re:To Solo on Shame Date: 96-03-03 14:44:51 EST From: Soloflyr11 dear dissent, thanx so much for sharing your experiences. everything i hear that confirms my feelings about syda has been helpful to me and your posts have definitely been amongst the most helpful. i love your style... you state it all sooooo clearly..... there are two things that get my goat the most. the first is when i have someone tell me to get over it, why am i still dwelling on my past experience. boy do i get on my soap box then. the other is (and larry i'm afraid i do see you still in this group though i like you lots) that for me personally my conscience will not allow me to participate in something which is unethical. i just find it so hard to understand how someone can knowingly associate with something that they know is corrupt, especially for people who have "high principles". i couldn't, and it gets me riled up when i hear people say that they know it is corrupt but still it doesn't effect them etc.... if you are truly on a "spiritual path" how can you participate even to the slightest agree if you know that there is corruption etc...... how can you in anyway participate in an organization that has an ongoing history of sexual abuse.... sincerely, solo p.s. hi judi, loved your last comment about "the" way. thus my screen name, solo..... Subj: bad words Date: 96-03-03 15:25:31 EST From: Soloflyr11 dear shri, spiritual brainwashing seems to take some time to overcome. it takes a a little time and effort to develop discrimination unblemished by the "spiritual dogma" or our prior programing with it's spiritual overlays. even using "bad words", which i see you have no problem with, even that i had to purge of the spiritual message, it's not spiritual to say ****... but i guess on aol there are rules and that makes sense to me. are there rules? i thot i'd heard there were. it's ok with me... but still i wanted to comment on bad words... solo Subj: government Date: 96-03-03 16:41:32 EST From: Brooohaaha Thank you Howie and Dissent and all. You are right. If I see bad things in Siddha Yoga I should have nothing to do with it, pay no more money for things, stop supporting even the shakti with my chanting. As a matter of fact, are you aware of how many really awful things our government has done? They have harrassed people, some government officials have had sex with young girls, they have lied and covered things up -- perhaps they have even assassinated people. I want no part of it! I'm outta here. No longer will I support these bad activities with my tax money. I'm moving out of the whole country. If you see good things in this country, you're just an apologist. As a matter of fact, I don't like a lot of the people at my job. They've discriminated against gays and minorities. Some people get paid a lot while others hardly get paid at all. And when they leave the company, where are they then? They give their life to this corrupt company that only wants to use them to make money. I will no longer support such a corrupt organization! No more work for me!!! And you know, the gym I go to -- they check nametags when you come in the door. And they charge so much money. What a greedy, money hungry, corrupt organization. If you try to get in without your tag they put you on a list! They don't even really care if I'm in shape or not! And I'll bet a lot of the people who work there have had sex with minors. No more gym for me!!!! Don't say there's a baby in the bathwater! How dare you! And do you know how many corrupt people are in Hollywood??? Its disgusting. Pedophiles, rapists, power hungry monsters exerting their position to use and abuse so many people. Those poor actresses being treated like meat. All they want is money. They don't take care of me after I leave the theatre, even after I put so much of my money and time into watching their movie. And do you know how much I spent for a crummy little box of popcorn? And they told me that coke was the real thing. Now I'm so disillusioned. No more movies for me!!! Uh uh, no way. Thank you so much Howie and Dissent and MDM for showing me the light. Now I'll really be able to enjoy life! Subj: re: Howie SM Date: 96-03-03 18:02:58 EST From: NaradaP Howie Sm You said something about writing a book about Religions Experience. That book has already been written and it is a famous classic. It is called The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James. (William James's book the Principles of Psychology is the fifty third book of the Great Books of the Western World set put out by Encyclopedia Britannica as recognition of his contribution to Western Civilization.) I feel William James was an enlighten man. His book on religions experiences was originally given as a series of lectures. William James was a Harvard Professor. He had a very pragmatic approach. In fact he also gave a series of lectures called 'Pragmatism: A New Name for Some Old Ways of Thinking' in 1907. Anyway, the contents of his book Varieties of Religious Experience, which I highly recommend, are as follows; 1. Religion and Neurology 2. Circumscription of the Topic 3. The reality of the Unseen 4. The Religion of Healthy-mindedness 5. The Sick Soul 6. The Divided Self, and the Process of its Unification 7. Conversion 8. Saintliness 9. The Value of Saintliness 10. Mysticism 11. Philosophy 12. Other Characteristics 13. Conclusions In the Chapter on the Divided Self he says the exact same things as I did which was objected to so much. He talks about the heterogeneous and homogeneous personality and the weakness of the heterogeneous personality. The following is an example William James took from the autobiography of Annie Besant. Annie Besant said... >>...I have ever been the queerest mixture of weakness and strength, and have paid heavily for the weakness. As a child I used to suffer tortures of shyness, and if my shoe-lace was untied would feel shamefacedly that every eye was fixed on the unlucky string: as a girl I would shrink away from strangers and think myself unwanted and unliked, so that I was full of eager gratitude to any one who noticed me kindly...<< (See how easily she could of been manipulated by SYDA) William James says, the "Heterogeneous personality has been explained as the result of inheritance--the traits of character of incompatible and antagonistic ancestors are supposed to be preserved alongside of each other." I could go on and on but you get my drift. Just armed with this book, The Varieties of Religious Experience, I can blow all your arguments out of the water by Hinduizing his concepts. If it was my desire to impress, I wouldn't tell you about William James, I would make you think his ideas were my own. As it is, I read this book so many years ago, when psychology was my obsession, that it would be impossible for me to comprehend how much I was influenced by his ideas. Minds such as William James, John Dewey, and Abraham Maslow have definitely influenced my thinking as much as Patanjali, Shankara and the Puranas. The ISBN Number of Varieties of Religious Experience is; ISBN 0 00 642520 8. Check it out. You will see in it the public library. Narada Subj: Re: Shrideva. Date: 96-03-03 18:04:18 EST From: NaradaP Shrideva I agree with you in the need for diversity. The United States is proof about how much more creativity is generated by a heterogeneous competitive population. I once wrote in a post about how this forum is exactly like the story of the Churning of the Sea. That was where everybody, Gods and Asurians, got together to churn the Sea for the nectar of immortality and for what ever else came up. I have identified the Churning of the Sea with the debating process where all points of view are important because who knows what line someone may say that will inspire an even more interesting line by somebody else. I am also against withdrawing from society too. And for that reason I deviated from the teaching of the Upanishads which gave me the impression that the most important goal in life is Bliss. That Bliss is Gods highest attribute. I have achieved Bliss so I know from my own experience how thinking Bliss is the end and goal is like a self administered spiritual prozac. It was my rebellion against this self administered spiritual prozac that I concluded that Creativity is God's highest attribute and that the Bliss and all the positive emotions derived from this Bliss is the environment to be creative in. After all, if God never created the universe, all the other attributes would never be, but God did create the universe. It was created from the environment of Bliss since who can argue that God isn't Blissful. And are we not gods in the making? So you are having a difficult time resolving the dualism/non-dualism, dualism. The resolution is easy. Think of it this way. True, we all have different views and perspectives in life. It is because of this that we can benefit from all the heterogeneous points of views. But, at the same time Ishvara, the Soul, within us all is one and non-dual. It is Ishvara, the unchangeable, in my soul that I ground myself in my self and it is Ishvara in the souls of everybody else that I ground myself in with others. It is in Ishvara in myself and in others that I pour my love into. Not the individual. I feel it wrong to do or say anything that would ever hinder the expression of Ishvara in myself or in others. And for that reason I will speak up when I see people hinder the expression of Ishvara in their lives like I have done in recent posts. The goals of psychology in the East is different from psychology of the West. The goal of Western psychology is to over come the hindrances that prevent an individual from fitting into society. The goal of Eastern psychology, (spiritual psychology), is to over come the hindrances that prevent an individual from fitting into their soul, (the non-dual.) I can't relate the non-dual towards Freudian psychology. Freud studied psychology from the pathologies of very sick people. He did make major contributions to psychology with his methods, but I prefer the self-actualization schools of thought in psychological circles led by Abraham Maslow together with Jung's work. (I love Jung's book "Modern man in search of a Soul".) Thank you for your post Shrideva. Namaste Subj: I have noticed. Date: 96-03-03 18:05:54 EST From: NaradaP I have noticed how even dissenters of SYDA have still not extracted themselves from the brainwashing techniques learned at SYDA. You have told me the brainwashing techniques SYDA used so you have alerted me to signs of their prescience. Like for example how SYDA taught how to push away doubting thoughts and unpleasant experiences so you can only feel good. But that is a very unhealthy and stagnate producing state of mind to cultivate. Doubts are really our best friends on the spiritual path because it is overcoming and resolving our doubts by testing them that we really resolve them. As long as we push away our doubts we will never make any forward movement on the Path. By pushing away our doubts and unpleasant experiences into the 'shadow' we are only creating dualisms that we will have to face and resolve later down the line. We tread forward on the path by resolution and integration. We tread backwards on the path by creating dualisms. As proof of what I'm saying, look at SYDA, see how instead of dealing with their problems they try to push them away by more security personal, more security computers. See how instead of dealing with their problems when they were small, they escalated into big problems. More and more of their resources being used to keep pushing them back. If SYDA used their resources to resolve their problems once and for all by putting an end to their abuses we are all talking about, then they can go on with their life and have nothing to hide. But as long as they are in a holding pattern of denial, their problems will keep mounting until the whole SYDA Foundation will topple. Another thing I noticed about ex-SYDAs is how a lot of them are still in awe with the glamour surrounding Gurumayi. When they were disciples Gurumayi was like a superhuman person, a perfect person. Now that they are ex-disciples I noticed they still see Gurumayi as a superhuman person, but a superhuman bad person. You know the posts I'm speaking about. (It's not my goal to step on anybody's toes here, I'm just calling it like I see it.) I see Gurumayi as an ordinary person who worked on cultivated her manipulation skills. She must of been good at keeping Baba happy though. :) Namaste Narada Subj: Re:Tinytim Date: 96-03-03 13:12:00 EST From: Dissent222 It bothers me that a SYDA board exists where people don't want to hear the historical facts and truth about SYDA; i.e., sexual abuse, exploitation, fraud, deceit, illegal harassment and threats, violence, rape, and more. What kind of people just refuse to want to know this information? What kind of world is this where people who say they are spiritual refuse to question their own participation in corruption, deception and abuse? Subj: Mission Impossible Date: 96-03-03 18:07:42 EST From: Howie Sm ***********M I S S I O N I M P O S S I B L E************** ----CLOSE-UP OF A PORTABLE MINIATURE REEL TO REEL TAPE RECORDER SAYING--- "The AOL folders have just reported that a girl was raped at 13 and abused by SYDA over a period of twenty years, and others who have suffered are beginning to find the courage to come forward." "SYDA apologist, your assignment, which you have been mind-conditioned to accept, is:" "DISCREDIT THEM AND ANYONE WHO HELPS THEM. DEFEND SYDA. USE WOOLLY PHILOSOPHY AND SYDA PARTY LINE AS A SMOKE SCREEN TO DO IT." "You must complete your mission in forty-eight hours. Should you or your SYDA apologist team accidentally post messages saying something reasonable, the "Ministry of Love" (see Orwell) will disavow all knowledge of your actions." "In the briefcase you will find cauliflowers that you and your team are to insert into the sockets where your brains used to be. The cauliflowers will help you blend into the general population." "Good luck. This tape will self-destruct after its completion. SGMKJ." ---CLOSE-UP OF TAPE SPOOLING OFF ON THE UPTAKE REEL AND FAILING TO IGNITE---MUTTERING HEARD "No good sevites left up there"--HAND SEEN TAKING THE UPTAKE REEL, AND BURYING IT WITHIN A CRUMPLED NITYANANDA PHOTO AND A NEW YORKER MAGAZINE PAGE--A MATCH IGNITES THE PAGE--- SWITCH TO INTRO FOOTAGE . . . **************M I S S I O N I M P O S S I B L E************** Subj: government Date: 96-03-03 16:41:32 EST From: Brooohaaha Thank you Howie and Dissent and all. You are right. If I see bad things in Siddha Yoga I should have nothing to do with it, pay no more money for things, stop supporting even the shakti with my chanting. As a matter of fact, are you aware of how many really awful things our government has done? They have harrassed people, some government officials have had sex with young girls, they have lied and covered things up -- perhaps they have even assassinated people. I want no part of it! I'm outta here. No longer will I support these bad activities with my tax money. I'm moving out of the whole country. If you see good things in this country, you're just an apologist. As a matter of fact, I don't like a lot of the people at my job. They've discriminated against gays and minorities. Some people get paid a lot while others hardly get paid at all. And when they leave the company, where are they then? They give their life to this corrupt company that only wants to use them to make money. I will no longer support such a corrupt organization! No more work for me!!! And you know, the gym I go to -- they check nametags when you come in the door. And they charge so much money. What a greedy, money hungry, corrupt organization. If you try to get in without your tag they put you on a list! They don't even really care if I'm in shape or not! And I'll bet a lot of the people who work there have had sex with minors. No more gym for me!!!! Don't say there's a baby in the bathwater! How dare you! And do you know how many corrupt people are in Hollywood??? Its disgusting. Pedophiles, rapists, power hungry monsters exerting their position to use and abuse so many people. Those poor actresses being treated like meat. All they want is money. They don't take care of me after I leave the theatre, even after I put so much of my money and time into watching their movie. And do you know how much I spent for a crummy little box of popcorn? And they told me that coke was the real thing. Now I'm so disillusioned. No more movies for me!!! Uh uh, no way. Thank you so much Howie and Dissent and MDM for showing me the light. Now I'll really be able to enjoy life! Subj: Re:government Date: 96-03-03 22:00:27 EST From: Bob1258487 Y'know, you're right! Siddha Yoga does remind me of our corrupt, cynical government. Only difference is - I don't worship George Bush or Bill Clinton as gods! Vote with your feet! Subj: Is The Guru Dead? Date: 96-03-04 01:18:32 EST From: Judi1001 There is good article in the sprin/summer addition of "What is Enlightenment" magazine. Andrew Cohen puts it out. ONe article is entitled "The Science of the Student/Teacher Relationship". Another is called "Spiritual Slavery and Prostitution of the Soul". Another is called "The Crisis of Trust". Also good article on Da Free John...called " The Dangerous and Disillusioning Example of Da Fre John. - Holy Madness. If any of you SYDA people would read these articles, I bet might help you clear a few things up in your head and help you along your path. It is food for thought! Subj: Re:PattyVTinytim Date: 96-03-03 20:10:40 EST From: MDSNMAN Oh, I'm sorry. Didn't realize you wanted a "truth-free" area here. Well, try this: If you need to pass sappy spiritual platitudes and mindless affirmations of your loyalty to THE FAITH back and forth, be my guest. But please do it in the privacy of your own head where the only brain you put at risk is your own. Many of us using this forum are doing so with the sincere hope that in some small way we can protect others from the suffering we have endured through our years of allegiance to cult SY. We may not change your mind, but maybe one or two people reading these posts will be helped. And that makes messages like this one in your "truth-free" area worthwhile. Don't you agree? Subj: Broohaha and Gov't Date: 96-03-04 06:31:10 EST From: Dissent222 Broohaha, I would agree with you that corruption and deception is not limited to SYDA, it appears in many other institutions. But in institutions that are not cults, there are checks and balances. There is legal recourse. There are ways of changing things, like impeaching Nixon, for example - or Bob Packwood. Corruption still happens all over the place, but we vote, we protest, we arrest - we are part of a system that guarantees us basic human rights and there are ways of fighting for justice. In SYDA, there is a woman, Gurumayi, and her on and off lover, George Afif, who believe they are entirely above and beyond any legal, moral or ethical authority. Like miniature, half-baked Hitlers, they are dictator/gods. They maintain their ultimate supremacy by destroying, or attempting to destroy, their enemies - like they have tried to destroy Gurumayi's brother, or threatened devotees who talked to the press about Muktnanda sexually abusing young girls. They believe there is no lie they can't tell and no illegal or immoral action they can't perform. They are accountable for NOTHING, in their view. There is no system built into SYDA that allows the leader to be questioned, sanctioned, or removed. So your post is really talking about apples and oranges. Dictatorships run by corrupt gurus are different from democracies run by corrupt politicians. The corruption may be quite similar, of course. The movie "Bob Roberts" was a terrific example of the politician/dictator/guru. Bob Roberts even had a shadowy partner who really ran the show, just like Gurumayi has George Afif. As dishonest as Bob Roberts was, though, even he never dared to proclaim in his brochures and other literature that he was God. It is truly embarrassing and incredible to me now that I could have ever spent even one second believing Gurumayi's claim to be God. At least I know now that a person who claims to be God and demands that others relate to her as such is, by definition, a sick, destructive person. Subj: more humourous healings Date: 96-03-04 14:50:15 EST From: Howie Sm ********INSIDE SYDA HUMOR--READ AT RISK OF YOUR SOUL*********** Q. Why is everyone required to wear the same "special" white clothing in SYDA's longer courses? A. So if they go crazy from the high-pressure brainwashing (like people I personally know have) they don't have to change on the way to the funny farm. ***************************** Subj: The new AOL mantra Date: 96-03-04 15:03:46 EST From: BIGBRAIN22 This is fantastic. I'm really getting into this hate thing. We should start a new AOL Siddha Yoga Mantra. Repeat after me: I HATE SIDDHA YOGA, I HATE SIDDHA YOGA, I HATE SIDDHA YOGA. Do you feel the difference? If that didn't work try: I HATE MORMONS or I HATE JEHOVAH WITNESSES (one of my favorite groups to hate). If you still feel love, don't despair. With patience and discipline you too can attain a state silimar to Howie's and some of the other hate guru's that are blessing us with their presence here. How sad! There's so much to hate and so little time to find fault. Subj: Gurumayi is laughing. Date: 96-03-04 17:41:45 EST From: NaradaP Dear readers, When I see all this escalating hate I can't help but think that Gurumayi is laughing. And laughing derisively at that. Because what, can you tell me, can be more painful then to have so much hate that everyday one rants and raves on their personal vendetta yet are completely impotent to do anything about it but rant and rave. How frustrating that must feel. Yet that hate grows and grows as we see here on these boards. But if all one focus their mind on is hate, what else can happen but have hate cultivated and grow inside. I shudder the thought. I think Judi has a point about how important love is. How much better to focus ones mind on love. How warm and blissful are the feelings of love, how cold and isolating are the feelings of hate. Isolated from ones own Soul... I don't like any of the abuses SYDA has committed against people who were naive about human predators either. But, don't you think teaching people how to hate is also an abuse? What happen to seeing God in everyone? How can you do that if you hate? Hate is an obstacle and an hindrance to Yoga, the Union with the Soul. I don't believe this Union can take place as long as one hates another. I have seen a Buddhist exercise where one takes their worst and most hated enemy and learn how to love them. I feel being a hate monger is as bad an abuse to others as anything SYDA has done. I think it would be much more healthy to teach those abused by SYDA to forgive those who abused them so they can get on with their life. How else can one resolve the hate. What was done was done, but life goes on. It would be much better to have the emotional scars healed with compassion, then to suffer with hate the rest of ones life. But I also agree that one should warn those who go through the SYDA process to keep both their eyes open exactly like Robert's post says. I feel those like Shrideva who learned how to take responsibility for resolving their weakness have a much more healthy approach to life then those who can't bare the thought of admitting they ever had a weakness and push it into their shadow, only to pop back up at the worst times. It isn't bad to have a weakness. To deny ones own weakness will only make one a victim of that weakness. We all have had them as we were growing up. I feel the abuser and the abused both are a victim of personal weakness. Both suffer. To have ones weakness taken advantage of proves the need to confront and strengthen what ever weakness ones finds in oneself. Or if one sees a weakness took advantage of in others, one should stop and look within to see if they have the same weakness and to strengthen it if they do. I am not justifying or apologizing for any abuses SYDA foundation has committed. My agenda is walking the Path of Yoga, the Union with the Soul. That is my highest priority. If loving my enemies is part of the path, so be it. OM Shanti Narada Subj: grass roots Date: 96-03-04 20:31:56 EST From: Shridevi <> This is a good idea, and of course you know, people are doing that. Including yourself, I believe. I support you/us to do just that. Not to appear as a hate mongerer (!!??)* but to share my experience, I was told I could not come back to the Ann Arbor center because of alleged attendance at such a satsang.) *I know you did not post the sarcastic 'hate' bulletin, but I'm going to express myself about that idea as well. . . ...I (for anyone who hasn't heard this story yet) was physically removed from the hall during the Guru Gita and told I was no longer welcome in Ann Arbor. This was a community that I had a very close relationship with. I knew its people, I had played the harmonium every morning while I was going to college . And this was several years ago. My only 'crime' at that time, was to find it difficult to support violent attacks upon Nityananda, to (quietly) refuse to participate in them, and to refuse to pretend that I was naieve about what actually took place. Most of my college aged friends were still more or less innocent. But by that time I was already involved for oh, 15 years or so. I couldn't be controlled through my ignorance, so they conjured up lies about me, saying they had seen me at so and so's house. It was somewhere I had never been in my life. But they had 'witnesses' that I had been there several times. And for that they dragged me out of satsang and very publicly and very severely humiliated me. Of course, this is no reason to stop organizing such sane satsangs, and I have actively done so for years since then, and continue to do so. These are satsangs where people just come and chant no matter what affiliation (or lack thereof) and know that no righteous ideology will be force fed them and maybe they will not even have to deal with the eau de spiritual materialism so heavily if, by chance, they have an allergy to it. Call it retro, call it reformation, call it just being ordinary. I agree, grass roots does work. It seems to fit the human scale of things. (bottom line - i dig the aesthetic.) Clearly, it is not any more likely that SYDA will be disbanded than it is that Scientology or Krsna Consciousness will be disbanded. However, because (hate mongerers)* like myself are willing to tell the truth about their experiences with these organizations, they have a lot less credibility in the culture at large. People are less likely to be victimized by them. (In the case of KC, dead even.) This in no way prevents people from benefiting from the spiritual wisdom tradition that Siddha Yoga places itself in. It makes these truths less likely to be veils behind which unkind, hurtful, unethical behaviors are rampant. Larry, I'm using your ideas to expand upon and express myself. Please don't think that I'm thinking I know where you are at. Thanks, Shree Subj: more about 'hate' Date: 96-03-04 20:40:59 EST From: Shridevi When I was 11, living in Ganeshpuri, Muktananda (that's Baba to you) gave a talk about the necessity to let go of the spiritual 'path.' That because you think you have something wrong with you, you avail yourself of swamis and gurus and priests, and then you REALLY DO have a problem. He talked about the prana of parabhairavi and removing one thorn with another thorn and leaving the second. To his credit, it was a great talk. Does anyone remember it? I have the tape and part of it I have transcribed if anyone is interested. I spent all my life with Baba pretty much. He always encouraged me, very directly and consistently, to continue to learn and to cultivate the gift of intellect that i have been given. I have no doubt that this gift of discrimination has brought me to where I am now. And sometimes in life, the ironies are hard. But it is in those holes in the discourse, the HOLES, that real spiritual practice can take place. I consider my strong moral response to the abuses perpetrated by the ashram to BE my sadhana. I do not insult myself by thinking I'm a hate mongerer. or by pathologizing my natural emotional responses either. If you e-mail one of the people here who appears to be a hate monger you will see that they are very sweet people who happen to have strong feelings and also, who don't try to appear spiritual (ie - not angry or negative). The fact that we all had to cop a spiritual agenda in Siddha Yoga in order to be taken seriously is one of the things that we now get to shed. Spiritually speaking, we're all just humans. And actually, speaking for myself, I care deeply about the teachings of Siddha Yoga, protecting the sacredness of those teachings, and protecting people who are temporarily unable to protect themselves. Whether it is because they are children, or because simply no one ever told them the truth. I do not go running around trying to sound spiritual on this board, quoting scriptures to everybody etc. etc., not because I am callous about those things, but frankly, because they mean so much more to me than that. This is a place to tell the truth, to support the truth in a very practical way. And hooray for all our de-homogenized personalities and the different ways we choose to do that. Subj: larry on innocence Date: 96-03-04 20:55:36 EST From: Shridevi <> I respect you for drawing your line. I wish it was closer to my line, of course. But a line is better than no line for me. . . Yes, they ARE innocent and I for one am not blaming them. I'm not sure it that was my quote you were quoting or someone elses who said they just don't understand how people WHO KNOW could support it. That is just it for me. I'm not blaming or shoulding. I'm expressing wonder. "I just don't know . . ." The truth is of course, I think I do know (why/how) because I was there for so long. And now I think I can speak to that place, because it is a place in myself. It is not "other." People read this board if they want to. No one is forcing them. They might lose their innocence. (but really, we are all Innocent at core, I think.) Losing our illusions is sad, its hard. They WERE such beautiful illusions. But like you, Larry, said in another post - we can create those utopias again in a more real and simple and organic way if we chose. Nothing is lost except ignorance. (for those of you with big intellects, lets save the lit crit slam on utopia.) But again, I don't force my friends who are still in SY (and i have a few) to lose their innocence. I tell them that I know things I believe they should know and do not at this point. I send them the Open Letter. They know what it is, they know it is coming, they can throw it away. What happens when the choice hits the bottom of our hearts, and reverberates for us to make a decision, that . . . that is where I have faith. I have faith that people, because they are GOOD will want to move toward what is good. And that they will do that in their own way. I wish it was my way, I do. I'll be honest. I wish people stood up for good when I was all alone with no one. But I'm not going to kick you out of my chanting group if you draw your line in a different place, Larry. peace, Shree. Subj: Re:Where you draw the line Date: 96-03-04 20:56:07 EST From: MDSNMAN Someone once said that all it takes for evil to triumph in this world is for good people to do nothing. Those of you who are aware of the ongoing abuses of SYDA but continue to support it by your attendance at chants, seva, etc., do just that. Your silent participation amounts to aquiesence if not tacit approval. You attempt to draw an artificial distinction between the messenger and her message. This is no doubt more comfortable psychologically, but it is morally and ethically wrong. It lends moral authority -- not to mention financial support -- to an essentially immoral and corrupt organization. And it allows the abuse to continue unimpeded. (Gurumayi thanks you.) Your ambiguity when it comes to right and wrong is exactly that which allows any tyrant to succeed. "I know they're taking the Jews away, but you know the trains are running on time now." Have the courage to take a stand. If you are not convinced of what you are reading here in the postings of ex-staffers and others, then take the trouble to find out, for God's sake, for yourself. Then act. Go or don't go. But don't sit on the fence. It hurts you, and it hurts others............... And by the way, NaradaP, there is nothing the least bit wrong with hating evil. Subj: Re:Gurumayi is laughing. Date: 96-03-04 20:59:53 EST From: Shridevi <> As I have tried over the years to put words to my experience, I read a lot of books on ideology and the relationship between Power and Knowledge. The power of interpretations, etc. From my life experience and my understanding I have to say with great conviction that people CAN be abused by the teachings. The teachings can be used as a weapon to repress people and are used that way by many people, groups, whatever all the time. Again, I've said this before, it is because I DO respect the teachings so much that I feel we must be very careful how we use them. If you would like any for instances, I'd be glad to supply. Please specify if you want gross or subtle examples. sincerely, Sd. Subj: to larryom Date: 96-03-04 21:02:32 EST From: Soloflyr11 dear larryom, thanx again for the ride, up and down and all around. i very much liked your idea of an alternative satsang. i have not thrown out yoga and i very much miss group chanting. i hope you don't think i would throw eggs. i am only trying to work out, resolve, find peace within myself regarding syda. it is very challenging and helpful for me to try to formulate my feelings and it is equally helpful to learn from the other posts and from my own reactions to other posts. i was 100% repulsed by what i heard was being done to nit., that is one of the things that helped me leave. some times i do feel angry at gurumayi, but i personally don't think anger precludes spirituality. being opened, mindful, and honest about all of ones feelings is more my idea of spiritual. i don't consider myself filled with hate . i do have pain and anger and i find it very healthy to acknowledge it, feel it, own it, expose it, etc. rather than let it remain repressed. for me *this* is spiritual, to embrace all of myself, not just my transcendent states, but everything, including my "negative" emotions. i think if there were people picketing or harrassing gurumayi they would only be behaving in the same ways as the one they were protesting against. (has that literally happened ?) i am still confused within myself about the "innocent" issue. if i may i would like to bring up a TOTAL exaggeration for the sake of magnifying my point. there were people who truly loved hitler and innocently believed him and dismissed any warnings. would you not wish to educate the innocent masses if you felt there was corruption? is there no parallel here? i am only trying to illustrate my dilemna, i'm not trying to compare gurumayi to hitler.... and i am not trying to cultivate hatred. i am trying to cultivate healing and communication. thanx again, solo Subj: to narada Date: 96-03-04 21:04:46 EST From: Soloflyr11 narada, (this is a little repetitive of my previous post to larryom) i do appreciate that you are trying to find the most peaceful and uplifting resolution. but i also think that you do not really understand the pain and anger of many people in this forum. my experience in healing and becoming more whole is that i find freedom when i no longer repress my feeling, when i dig them up from my depths to find out what it is i *really* feel. i find that by opening up to my feelings i become freer of them. if instead i try to transcend, let go, or focus *only* on forgiveness and compassion i will have not moved toward freedom from these difficult feelings, but will be bound by them albeit unconsciously. a conclusion i have been coming to lately is that balance is key, both practicing love and forgiveness, compassion etc. but also uncovering and embracing all of myself. i think much of what is on these boards is motivated by a wish to heal and i hope you do not think that *all* of the "negative" posts are people focusing on hate. i for one like to focus on love. but i also have other feelings that i am trying to work through and i find these forums to be more than useful. sincerely, solo Subj: Spiritual Slavery Date: 96-03-04 21:16:40 EST From: Howie Sm Spiritual Slavery and Prostitution of the Soul. A Dialogue with Andrew Cohen from *What is Enlightenment*, volume 5 number 1. Excerpts. Q: But I don't understand how, even after the failings of the guru have become obvious, people will still allow themselves to be taken advantage of. They often will continue to be followers in the face of unethical behavior, and in some cases even gross abuse. A: Often when a person meets a teacher in whom the Absolute is manifesting to a powerful degree, their heart will open up unexpectedly. They may experience unusual insight and understanding just through mere association with this kind of extraordinary individual. After this kind of experience it is easy to understand how one may get very attached to that individual. The bond that is formed through experiences like these runs very deep. Slowly without even realizing it, in order to protect the love and beauty of that precious event, the person starts to be willing to overlook things. The minute that begins, they become corrupt themselves. Q: Is that when they start to rationalize? A: Yes, then they become corrupt, in the same way the guru is. When you try to talk to the disciples of these gurus about simple virtues, they often are unable to make any sense. Also, they will frequently say things like, "Ethical conduct and enlightenment have nothing to do with each other," in an attempt to justify the confusing behavior of their guru. The minute anybody allows themselves to tolerate corruption, they become a part of it. These people desperately don't want to see the depth of the corruption that they themselves are immersed in. The security of their spiritual well-being *depends* on the fact that no matter what, the actions of the guru are *never* questioned. Because their hearts are so invested in the guru, they will make almost any rationalization or justification for the guru's actions. They will do almost anything in order to protect that love that the guru has revealed to them. This is spiritual slavery and prostitution of the soul. In weak-minded people the seal of enlightenment becomes a license for abuse. . . . Q: So how does one discern? To what degree do I question my own perception and trust? A: Just go by the basics. There are some very basic, ethical laws that anybody who's not insane knows. They are not esoteric. Q: So where do you draw the line? A: The line is drawn where suffering is caused to other people due to selfish actions that stem from ignorance. That's where you draw the line. Subj: yet more humorous healings Date: 96-03-04 14:51:28 EST From: Howie Sm ********INSIDE SYDA HUMOR--READ AT RISK OF YOUR SOUL*********** Q. Why did they discontinue the traditional practice of accepting gifts of fruit during darshan, and now just collect dead president salad baskets (i.e., cash)? A. You can't put an old banana into a numbered Swiss bank account. ***************************** Subj: again, humorous healings Date: 96-03-04 14:52:26 EST From: Howie Sm ********INSIDE SYDA HUMOR--READ AT RISK OF YOUR SOUL*********** Q. How many SYDA zombies with a ladder does it take to screw in a lightbulb? A. Only one. But they'll make sure it is a zombie with a fear of heights. They'll find out who to pick by getting an obsequious stooge "therapist" to violate therapist-client confidentiality. ***************************** Subj: humourous healings Date: 96-03-04 14:49:09 EST From: Howie Sm ********INSIDE SYDA HUMOR--READ AT RISK OF YOUR SOUL*********** Q. Why did the zombie cross the road? A. To get to the zombie silent walkway. (Stagger in peace, my children!) Note: Traffic on Brickman road can be treacherous, so be sure to look both ways before crossing! SMKJ! ***************************** Subj: Re:PattyVTinytim Date: 96-03-03 20:10:40 EST From: MDSNMAN Oh, I'm sorry. Didn't realize you wanted a "truth-free" area here. Well, try this: If you need to pass sappy spiritual platitudes and mindless affirmations of your loyalty to THE FAITH back and forth, be my guest. But please do it in the privacy of your own head where the only brain you put at risk is your own. Many of us using this forum are doing so with the sincere hope that in some small way we can protect others from the suffering we have endured through our years of allegiance to cult SY. We may not change your mind, but maybe one or two people reading these posts will be helped. And that makes messages like this one in your "truth-free" area worthwhile. Don't you agree? Subj: Home remedy for what ails ya Date: 96-03-04 14:44:21 EST From: Howie Sm ********DR. HOWIE'S HOME REMEDIES*********** Cure for the epidemic of AOL zombie misreadings: HERE IS THE TWO-STEP CURE: STEP 1. Read this out loud in your best chanting voice: "Calling SYDA incurably corrupt is not a criticism of Hinduism or yogic philosophy." STEP 2. GO TO STEP 1 Subj: humorous healings, yet again Date: 96-03-04 14:55:12 EST From: Howie Sm ********INSIDE SYDA HUMOR--READ AT RISK OF YOUR SOUL*********** Q. Why do SYDA ashramites wear required, coded name tags? A. Because the local authorities frown on the use of branding irons on human backsides. ***************************** Subj: To BIGBRAIN Date: 96-03-04 21:48:44 EST From: Howie Sm BIGBRAIN--to recognize that the SYDA critics are performing a positive service to the community is a NOBRAINER. BIGBRAIN, the message of people who criticize SYDA is not a message of hate. It is a message of love. Love can be expressed in many forms, including the form of warnings. It is an act of caring to warn others of the SYDA con. If my mother, or daughter, or best friend were thinking of going into SYDA, I'd tell them to read what the SYDA critics have written on these AOL folders. I think it's great and humane that some of these people who have seen the inner workings of SYDA have taken the effort to tell what they know. Their disclosures will save a lot of people a lot of trouble. It will prevent good people from inadvertently supporting an abusive institution. Good for them! Why don't you use your BIGBRAIN to "contemplate" and verify what the critics are saying instead of discrediting them in knee-jerk fashion? The critics are the ones that are trying to preserve the good name of spiritual pursuit. And lighten up. The whole idea that some weird girl, just because she inherited a truly first-rate con method, is now being worshipped as a God by gullible people from good families who are otherwise skilled, educated, and sincere, is something to be dismayed about (of course)--at the same time, it is something that it is quite easy to laugh at! And laughter is good for the soul. So here's a joke, just for you: Q. Why do people jostle in darshan mobs instead of focusing on God in their own hearts at home? A. Bill Cosby's TV wife told them to. Subj: Hatred Date: 96-03-04 22:29:01 EST From: Dissent222 Narada has decried what he terms the hatred of the SYDA Protest voices on this board, and Solo and Shridevi have offered very well-reasoned rebuttals. Mine may be more emotional, not so well-reasoned, but that's my style. So don't read this if you have difficulty embracing a full range of human emotions. Anger and hatred are not the same thing. Voicing anger and protest against corruption and abuse -- and lies, deception and cover-ups -- are spiritual practices. Feelings are nothing to be ashamed of, contrary to how SYDA would like to manipulate its adherents to believe. Feelings are what make us human. Being human is a real and noble goal; being "self-realized" is a con artist sales come-on. People who deny they feel anger and hatred are at best deluding themselves, at worst deluding others. The argument about spreading hatred that Narada uses is typical of the mind-*twisting* tactics of the SYDA spokespeople, many of whom, by the way, are sent to special training programs in New York, taught by a famous corporate spokesman, to learn how to do damage control. SYDA's long history of sexual abuse, financial fraud, lies, beatings, guns, rape, homophobia, spying with hidden mikes and cameras, ETCETERA, is swept completely under the rug with phrases like - "contemplate the feeling behind your question; focus on your experience of Gurumayi; still the vrittis; or let go of your anger and resentment". Those bromides keep the SYDA coffers healthy, but they give devotees the disease of blind obedience and self- annihilation. SYDA Yoga is iatrogenic - it causes the diseases of alienation and separation it claims to cure. I hate being lied to and betrayed, and I hate having spent so much of my life slaving in the service of this pair of sadistic megalomaniacs named George and Gracie, I mean George and Gurumayi. And my owning my anger and hatred and directing it to appropriate targets does not make you, Narada, -- if you're still reading this, and not sitting beshawled somewhere, twirling your rudrakshas and waving dhoop at your computer, -- my willingness to express my feelings of outrage about the despicable corruption in SYDA does not make me less spiritual than you. Subj: Hatred Date: 96-03-05 08:35:18 EST From: Dissent222 It is depressing that people use the concept of HATRED as a means of excusing and denying the atrocious kinds of abuses that are reported here, which identify SYDA as being pervaded with corruption and deception. HATRED is not what motivates me, or solo, shridevi, howie, robert, mdsnman. I don't know all these people, but I hear in their posts the profound hope of helping others become free of eploitation and abuse in SYDA. The motive for posting these things is to uphold truth, and justice - the point is dharma. Gurumayi and the leaders of SYDA behave in ways that are immoral and deeply offensive to any standards of ethical conduct - the stories are legion, and the surface has barely been scratched. Aside from the Open Letters available on the HInduism File Library, an archived discussion that took place last summer is available on the WEB at http://www.ex-cult.org/Groups/SYDA-Yoga/ Many specific, not vague or general, abuses are reported there, and there will be many many more to come. Subj: Re:Hatred Date: 96-03-05 13:46:06 EST From: Dissent222 Sadananda - pressed the wrong button. Let's try again. If you hate the protests, you will pretend that there have not been innumerable specifics already posted on this and the other SYDA boards, beginning last August and continuing until now. The August ones are archived on the WEB, the new ones are still available. If what you read is not specific enough, then you have already made up your mind not to hear it. In that case, say what you like, describe me in any way you like. FREE SPEECH that does not exist in Gurumayi's ashram does exist here, so go for it. Subj: SYDA folders improving? Date: 96-03-05 20:32:32 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Some have implied that the SYDA critics' postings have displaced a stream of intelligent discourse that the SYDA supporters would otherwise naturally generate. Poppycock. Except for two brief periods in the last couple of years--now is one of them--the zombies have ruled the AOL boards. During zombie dominance, were the boards filled with substantial dialogue? Absolutely not! They were splattered with utter drivel; fragmentary sentences; weirdly distorted platitudes; low-baud rate gurglings. It was so bad that at one point an onlooker signed on--someone not connected to SYDA at all, as far as I could tell--and said in exasperation "is this the Hindu retard board?" In fact the only thing that seems to focus the minds of the SYDA supporters on these boards is the presence of SYDA critics. When SYDA critics are online, the SYDA supporters make an effort to say something. Since the arrival of Dissent and others, the SYDA supporters have been doing much better. Also, they post more frequently, and attempt to make complete statements. Regardless of what your views are, you have to agree with this--plural voices on this board raises the level of discussion. Not to an acceptable level, I agree, but at least to a wee-bit better level. Subj: GM knows what you're feeling Date: 96-03-05 20:35:43 EST From: Howie Sm Dear SYDAites, I channel this from above: <<>> Subj: Silencing Protest Date: 96-03-05 21:22:22 EST From: Dissent222 Some of the people claiming that protesters are not listing facts and just spreading hatred sound an awful lot like Namdev conducting the Seva Course ( or I should say, Namdev with the earphone in his ear repeating what Gurumayi and George Afif say to him from the booth with the 1-way glass in the back of the Hall). Do you wish to intimidate the people who are attempting to expose lies in SYDA? Just like people were regularly intimidated, humiliated and exposed in the Fire Course, the Seva Course, the No Ego Course, etc.? I am neither shamed by what you say nor intimidated. I'm pretty well over that, and now I just tell the truth about SYDA. I would bet that there are about 50 people who regularly lurk here who have plenty of stories they could tell and don't, because they don't want to be threatened or harassed by SYDA deputies. I hope these lurkers (I know several of them personally) don't get frightened by the big bad voice of authority used by the SYDA defenders. In time, we'll be seeing a lot more skeletons in the closet. Subj: Brooohaaha/child sex abuse Date: 96-03-06 10:44:21 EST From: Howie Sm Brooohaaha, you say <<>> Brooohaaha, given the preceding discussion, it is clear that you are attempting to rebut SYDA critics by attributing their outrage to ignorant ethnocentricity. Brooohaaha, South Asian culture is extraordinarily diverse--most knew this well before you found the aol news center. Brooohaaha, it is ethnocentric of you to characterize a culture out of context. An appalling child-sex-abuse group in the US argues that their horrific activities are part of a cultural tradition from the Golden Age of Greece. Your self-serving reasoning is just like theirs. One the first things that shocked British researchers in India was the sex/meat-eating orgies of annual festivals in which caste, substance-code, and marriage distinctions were set aside for a day. The colored liquids and red powder of the now pleasant Holi festival today point back to a bloody early ritual. The Soma ritual occupies a central position in the Vedas. Etc., etc. Except for the grossly ignorant, everyone knows these and many other things about South Asian culture. Of course they are fascinating things deserving attention. There are so many interesting things about Indian culture. Why stay stuck on Gurumayi's Siddha Yoga? Subj: specifics Date: 96-03-06 11:53:30 EST From: Brooohaaha Speaking of specifics, the only clear, personal one I've seen is from Shridevi. And I have some questions about it -- not doubts that you are being honest, just clarifications. You say you were raped by a VIP in Siddha Yoga. Is this someone who lived in the ashram? Someone with authority over you in your seva position? A swami? A manager? A Guru? Who? An old man? A young man? What does VIP mean? Makes me think of one of the trustees or other wealthy men with fancy suits. Did you report the rape to the ashram management? To the Guru -- whoever that was at the time? To your parents? What did your parents say? Didn't you have to check to make sure you weren't pregnant after the rape? Did you tell your doctor you were raped? You seem far to intelligent and strong-willed to be silenced to that degree. What were you afraid of? Were you an ashram resident at the time? Did the rape take place on the ashram grounds? Did you know the person? Did you tell your friends about it? I'm not doubting you here. I'm sure there are many women who have been raped in their lives and chose not to tell anyone. However, based on your writing here, you just don't seem like the passive type to me, and that is why I have these questions. Have you told anyone (specifically Gurumayi) about what happened since then? I wonder what she would say if you told her now about what happened. Is the VIP still in a position of power now? Did you ever confront him? Thank you for your candor and openness. I think this is what we all need to hear -- specifics. General attacks and insults don't really do much to change people's ideas. They only bring up defenses and bad feelings. What is fun to the school bully is torture to his little victims. What we need is real communication, not bullying (yes, I mean you Howie). Subj: Re:specifics Date: 96-03-06 16:03:00 EST From: Dissent222 Broohaha's requests of Shridevi for details are a stunning, just mind boggling example of insensitivity and inappropriate interrogation and shaming of victims. This is why the girls who were sexually abused by Muktananda and Afif don't talk about it - because they are subjected to the loutish, crude invasive questions that Brooohaaha has asked. You want so many details, you people - did you ever ever once ask Gurumayi for any details about any claims she makes? You accept every word out of her mouth, but you want to tear up and devour anyone else who makes alternative claims about her. Subj: my first name Date: 96-03-06 16:15:12 EST From: Shridevi though i'm not going to hide my name, i would rather not use it in an on-going way on these bulletins. the vibes get such that i need to have some distance and privacy, thanks. Subj: Re:GET REAL Date: 96-03-06 16:27:11 EST From: Shridevi I have a friend who took a video of what happened in Ann Arbor. The woman who took it (a black woman) was followed home, harrassed and her home vandalized. She was not part of Siddha Yoga. Would you like me to try to send you a copy? Go ahead and leave your name and address on this board and I'll see what I can do. As for what happened to me, if people on this board weren't acting so self-righteous all the time, I would be much more likely to make myself more vulnerable. To friends who offer support and understanding, they know exactly who I am (if they ask) who the perpetrators were, etc. Some have even e-mailed me to say they've had similar experiences with the same people. I'm not surprised, of course. But I'm also done protecting these criminals with the "lack of proof" rhetoric. I'm not suggesting you are necessarily being strategic or rhetorical here, I'm sure you really are confused and want hard copy. But to me, given my experiences, I just can't relate. Plus, my mother, whose job it is to protect my "bodily human form" is really concerned. So I'm not going to traumatize her either. Poor woman. She's been through enough already. The fact is, since I have been (*********ed) more than once by the ashram, I am not currently in the mood for additional abuse. In whatever form. I don't want some righteous yogi or yogini to pass judgement upon what happened to me. It's like being retraumatized. It's like being raped all over again and having people watch and wonder if they should bother to do anything. All over again. That's how I experience it. Subj: Re:specifics Date: 96-03-06 16:33:02 EST From: Shridevi Personally, Broohaha, given what I have seen of where your head is at, you are not a person in whom I would chose to confide such personal, painful experiences. Asking me to post such things on a board like this is, frankly, insulting. Shridevi Subj: Re:specifics Date: 96-03-06 16:54:16 EST From: Shridevi I feel shakey. My heart is pounding. I am on the verge of tears. It hurts to be so unbelievable misunderstood. I started leaving SY before I knew, or was "sure" about allegations. I started leaving not necessarily because of abuses or corruption, but because the spirituality that was being sold by SYDA foundation did not match my understanding of Kashmir Shavism, my inner experiences or whatever. I just didn't feel like I really "fit" in that scene and was happier practicing on my own than trying to communicate with the average siddha adherent. Perhaps having been trained as a "teacher" since age eleven, and having been put through the Center Leader thing for so many years as well, I saw a different version than others, but I don't think so. It is there for everyone to see, if you care to look, and if you have the innate discrimination to recognize it. I didn't have the language yet to put words to my experience. Words and feelings stuck like a hairball in my throat because I had no context for where, in my deeper being, I was finding myself. Since then I have found ways of expressing my spiritual aesthetic. (This is clearly not the place to go into that.) Since then I have also found ways of dealing with traumatic experiences and observations. I am able to express myself the way I do now because of the reading the open letter, finding people like Dissent and Howie and Soloflyer and Robert and Mdsnman and Mmmmmmmaaaaaaaahh (and many many lurkers) who are willing to put themselves out there and say what I know to be true. They express what seem to be strong opinions knowing that they will be attacked as extreme or un-spiritual. Those kinds of judgements and mind warping arguments are gross examples of why I started leaving Siddha Yoga in the first place and I just don't take them seriously any more. I have immense gratitude for these people - particularly the authors of the Open Letter, for allowing me to cough up my hairball. I continue to feel torn open with love that they speak what is true despite harsh and righteous criticism. Don't separate me out. Don't idealize me. The pill may be easier to swallow but the medicine is the same. Subj: cultcha Date: 96-03-06 17:09:57 EST From: Shridevi They held up a stone. I said, "Stone," Smiling they said, "Stone." They showed me a tree. I said, "Tree." Smiling they said, "Tree" They shed a man's blood. I said, "Blood." Smiling, they said, "Paint." They shed a man's blood. I said, "Blood." Smiling, they said, "Paint." ==== "They altered the accepted usage of words in relation to deeds as they thought fit. Reckless audacity was termed courageous loyalty; prudent hesitation was called cowardice . . ." Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War, 5th Century B.C. (The word in Ann Arbor was that we were to be spiritual warriors for Gurumayi.) Subj: Ann Arbor Date: 96-03-06 17:26:24 EST From: Dissent222 And that thug the Ann Arbor devotees hired to harass Gurumayi's brother and intimidate him - I heard it was Colin Horn, who last I heard was working with Namdev Hayes in business -- it was Colin Horn who hired this local thug. Perhaps Colin was just following Der Feuhrer Afif/Chidvilasananda's orders Subj: Re:specifics Date: 96-03-06 17:41:14 EST From: E3346 Broo, I am stunned by your callousness. Do you have any idea how hard it is for someone to speak up about these things? Do you know what it is like to be confronted and disbelieved in your suffering? I was raped by someone I didn't know. The questions from the police were much like yours. I was made to feel like a criminal....like *I* had done something wrong. If someone within a family suffers sexual abuse...do you know how hard it is to speak up? How the mother and brothers and the sisters and the aunts and the uncles are likely to disbelieve the child who has suffered the abuse. Look at the family you are in. (by that I mean spiritual family) Is it likely that someone would be disbelieved or believed at their word. Which would it be? Would it all be explained away? The family never falls apart if the horrendous actions are ignored. Very safe don't you think? I am sorry for my anger. Forgive me for that. My hands shake as I write this post..... not because I want to discredit any organization or religious group but because a human being who has suffered needs to prove their experience. I cannot believe that anyone....EVER....would make up such a thing. My heart aches, not just for Shridevi but also for those who suffer in ignorance. E Subj: Re:specifics Date: 96-03-06 17:54:41 EST From: Shridevi thanks dissent and e. sign. breathe. My mother was supportive. My family supports me. The things that happened to me that were "un-provable" were much more devastating than the ones that were, actually. The kind of thing that you can't just hold up and say "look" here it is. The hardest thing is to talk to people who are totally blind to the other kind of manipulation. It is like talking to a schizophrenic, only you are the one that is getting pathologized. You see something, they don't see it. They tell you you are hallucinating. That is really nutz. It is like that being on this board. -shri. Subj: to shridevi Date: 96-03-06 19:31:20 EST From: Soloflyr11 dear shree, again, your posts, absolutely brilliant. i feel such sadness for what you have been through and are still going through. but with tears in my eyes for your pain, there are also tears of joy that we *can* feel and that we have escaped the life-negating path of sy.... i don't need to tell you that i'd stand up for you if i was there, however it's funny how it works, most people that would stand up for you would have already left..... with a very warm hug, solo Subj: Miss Sabrina Date: 96-03-06 17:30:26 EST From: Shridevi Is it true that Miss Sabrina has decided to leave? For all of you on both sides of the fence, and for Larry who doesn't care about the fence, I have consciously decided to ignore her pleas for hard facts even though I have a briefcase full. I hope you understand. There was just something really uninviting about the way she was asking it. My heart is tender about these things. I am not in the mood to dance with that kind of energy. And thanks, Larry, for dancing differently with me. warmly, me. PS - you will find my frustrated responses in other folders. Subj: Re:specifics Date: 96-03-06 22:46:32 EST From: MDSNMAN Brohaa: There are plenty of specifics available (with more to come) without you interrogating rape victims to spill their guts online. What is wrong with you? Try doing your homework. Start with the Aol library. Then, if you haven't already, read Liz Harris's article in the New Yorker. It is full of details, all meticulously researched and all supported by fact -- The New Yorker editors made sure of that before going to print. I don't know who you are, obviously, or how much inside knowledge you have of SYDA. But if you know anything at all, you know that SYDA is very quick to defend real or perceived threats in court. For as long as I can remember, the SYDA lawyers have been busy suing or threatening to sue on tax issues, copyright issues (Did you know they tried to copyright "Shaktipat"?) and on what they perceived as slander. So when Twisted Sister got wind that the New Yorker was going to publish, her lawyers got busy with the threats of a suit and attempts to stop publication using everything their armamentarium. Ms Harris told me that the editors and the legal department at the New Yorker had never seen anything like it. But guess what? No suit. Hmmmmmm. Ask yourself why a suit-happy organization with some very upscale attorneys in their employ never followed through. Better yet, ask SYDA, specifically, Sudama Sitkin and Mark Cohen, and see how they answer. (Then, don't be surprized when your name shows up on a list somewhere -- Ha Ha) Still, Broha, I get the feeling that it really doesn't matter what specifics are revealed here or elsewhere to you. To the true-believer, it makes little difference. Am I right? Subj: a little balance Date: 96-03-07 00:06:37 EST From: Soloflyr11 i feel a need to qualify my statement about sy being life negating. when i was involved in sy i learned many wonderful things and had many wonderful experiences. i can not deny that. nor can i deny other things which i witnessed that disturbed my sense of morality. when i was involved there were many ways in which i was not fully myself. for example i did not express many of my feelings because it would not be considered acceptable. this is partly what i mean by life negating, in that i had to suppress parts of myself in order to remain in the ashram. in so many ways my life is so much fuller since i left, no longer restricted. for me sy was in many ways a wonderful experience, but also it was extremely limiting, even negating of my full development. i don't know if i have made any sense, but i did want to explain and apologize for stating myself maybe too offensively. i do not wish to deny experiences such as satya's since i too felt that way at one time. Subj: Shridevi Date: 96-03-07 01:00:58 EST From: Brooohaaha Police ask questions to discertain whether a "victim" is being truthful or not. It is a necessary evil to keep someone from slandering another without giving any facts. If it happened so long ago as you mentioned, I would think you could at least answer the basic question of who did it, where it happened, what the context was, and if you reported it to management or the Guru. Just saying "I was raped" with absolutely no context doesn't make sense. My questions may sound "cold" or "official" simply because I have a background in law. If a victim treaded water around giving even the most minute fact about an accusation, I would have to assume their claim was false. If you were willing to publicly proclaim that you were raped "by the ashram", you have to be willing to give some clarification to exactly what that means. The word "rape" has a strong emotional connotation, thus the emotional posts that responded to mine. I'm not here to protect any organization. In fact, I don't consider myself to be a member of Siddha. I have only enjoyed its programs and teachings from the fringe, along with my own religion. Its just that my sense of right action has been disturbed by all of the meanness and vague claims being tossed about on this board. The open letters, though well written, are simply more vague claims. Here we finally have someone who says she was raped, and it is only natural to want to verify that it is true. Was it a rape according to the legal definition of rape? Was the person a representative of the organization? These are the important facts to know when someone makes a claim such as you have. I'll be just as happy to hear that it did happen as I would be to hear that it didn't. Just because you hate-mongers want to divide everyone into believers and disbelievers, zombies and open eyed intelligent beings, doesn't mean that I'll fit neatly into your catagories. You all are more cultist than any cult I've seen. You just try to tear down anyone who has an idea that doesn't fit in your agenda. There is no respect. I'm specifically referring to Howie, because she is the meanest bully on this board. Shridevi is very open and kind. I just want to know that her claims are accurate, since they are the first specific claims I have heard. Lashing out at someone for wanting to know the truth is a cult tactic. Dissent wrote me e-mail expressing his disapproval of my questions and telling me I should have my post removed from the board. Were you in charge of the picture burning, Dissent? Maybe its people like you and howie that were the problem with Siddha in the first place. Maybe you brought the cult with you. Maybe Siddha is better without you. Subj: Eyes to see, ears to hear Date: 96-03-07 06:48:32 EST From: Dissent222 Broo has this term "vague claims" which he seems to define as "anything, no matter how concrete, that I don't want to hear or understand." Fine. Whatever. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Unless it's Gurumayi's bath water, I guess. Yes, I'm snotty and edgy and perhaps I go overboard at times in expressing my feelings of outrage and betrayal. The disbelief and the dismissal I am often subjected to when I make claims, many of them filled with names and facts, about SYDA, feels like being in a Camus or Kafka novel, most of the time - or maybe in Orwell's 1984. As Shridevi's quote from Greek History shows, double-speak is nothing new, certainly not only the property of SYDA - although they probably tried to put their little trademark on it at some point. Anyway, I'm only human, and I don't always maintain my cool when confronted with people who are staring straight at a thing and still claim not to see it. I attribute this blindness to the power of mind control, and some day I hope I can witness this blindness without losing my cool. I got into SYDA because I wanted to serve God, and I wanted to live honestly and with meaning. Here's some of the disillusion points: - I was rewarded for involving myself in harassment and intimidation of Gurumayi's brother, rewarded by Gurumayi. - I was made to participate in discrimination against gays and lesbians, by having to fire gay and lesbian Hatha Yoga teachers at Gurumayi's command without giving these teachers any explanation. Even though at one time Gurumayi's personal fitness trainer was a lesbian, Gurumayi didn't like the idea of gay and lesbian hatha yoga teachers, beacuse they touch people when they teach. That was the official explanation. - I witnessed the purchasing of luxury items - hats, jewelry, ornaments - for Gurumayi and George that were unbelievably expensive. I saw that neither of them considered any amount of money spent on themselves to be too much. Meanwhile, staff lived 6 to a Catskill hotel room, worked 18 hours a day,-- often being punished for some sick reason, like someone took an afternoon off to see a movie, by having their holidays or vacations or days off cancelled. - I saw Gurumayi take orders from George Afif. I saw her lie, many many times. - I saw them both treat people with disdain, contempt and cruelty. Anyone who took any of those big courses like the No Ego course saw that. I have witnessed how devastating this has been to many of those on the receiving end of their hatred. The Open Letters, and many of the posts which are archived in the SYDA discussion on the WEB, (at http://www.ex-cult.org/Groups/SYDA-Yoga/ ) have plenty more details. I give details and names and dates in some of my posts, but not all. I'm still concerned about protecting myself from SYDA law suits. I lost over 10 years of income while working for Gurumayi. I can't afford to be sued now. Thanks for the support of those who have survived the damage of SYDA and can once again use their own eyes and ears, heart and mind to recognize corruption and deception when they see it, and name it for what it is. Subj: Brooo, legality, and decency Date: 96-03-07 10:07:29 EST From: Howie Sm Brooohaaha, Haven't you heard the outcry against your inappropriate post? The AOL folders are not a place for combative interrogations of victims. Let it alone. Brooohaaha, you say <<>> (Howie says) You're obviously--very obviously--not a lawyer. <<< I'm not here to protect any organization. In fact, I don't consider myself to be a member of Siddha. I have only enjoyed its programs and teachings from the fringe, along with my own religion. Its just that my sense of right action has been disturbed by all of the meanness and vague claims being tossed about on this board.>>> (Howie says) This backpedaling noise again, from someone with a persistent and heated interest in the SYDA folders. One wonders if SYDA has any members at all--everyone seems to be an auto-enlightened tourist. Am I the only one that thinks this sounds fishy? Brooohaaha, remember that we can all can apply the duck test. (Which reminds, me I've got to go to the lake with my breadcrumbs now . . .) <<>> (Howie says) I call it as I see it. Given that you just demanded details of a rape from someone in a public online area, do you think you are the one to give me advice about sensitivity training, Brooohaaha? (Um, how much do you charge for sensitivity lessons?) <<>> (Howie says) Dissent222, I didn't know you wrote to Brooohaahaa personally. Thank you for being a decent human being--apparently with a strong stomach. You did what you could. It's up to Brooohaahaa to swallow his pride and do the right thing. (Howie says) Brooohaahaa, attack me all you want. Everything that you feel the need to say about SYDA critics, say about me. But back off of the others. I beg you, please back off of the others. Subj: Re:Brooo, legality, and dece Date: 96-03-07 11:33:27 EST From: E3346 Broo, It is so interesting to me that you overlook the fact the Shri left SY because she outgrew it. I wonder why that is not of more interest to you. What is shared about her reasons for leaving is far more germaine than the specific incidents that were suffered through and lived through. They became a catalyst for change. For those who are now in the SY "way station": I hope that you all can learn and grow without any dangerous or painful experiences. Perhaps these are, in fact, the lessons of SYDA and some have to choose this path just to learn these specific lessons. That's too bad for it sounds like a very difficult path. I am so grateful for the postings on this board. I have learned so much. I have had a very difficult time wrestling with the issue of having a Guru or not....what that means. This board has shown me both sides of that issue with such absolute clarity. Thank you, to all of you who have shared your hearts. Peace to you, E Subj: Re:Shridevi Date: 96-03-07 11:42:42 EST From: Shridevi Dear Mr. or Miss Broohaha: So nice to be able to remind you in person once again that human beings have feelings. If you were a little more of one, perhaps you would have been one of the many people who DO know all the things you are asking. But since you don't act like one, and there are many like you out there in cyberspace, this board is the the place that I, as an adult, chose to post my most intimate parts of my life. If you were more in touch with your humanity, I think that would be more clear to you. If you would like to post your name and address on this board, and give some EVIDENCE that you really CARE, perhaps I would mail you the details you feel are so important. Please don't get out your 'hate-mongering' lingo again with me. You have made me angry. I'm expressing my anger. This is perfectly appropriate and natural. It probably will pass pretty quickly, too. Howie is not a hate mongerer either, he is also human. Perhaps this conviction of yours is coming from somewhere ELSE? I have a background in psychology and we can be even more ruthless than you lawyers when it comes to reducing someone to an epiphenomenon of our discourse. I thought you might like an example of how to be a lawyer and be a human being at the same time. I got this e-mail this morning. Dear Shridevi, my condolences on the Inquisition like nature of Broo's response on the SYDA message boards. He reminds me of many law students and lawyers I know; quick to let you know of their "law" background, quick to "appear" to use the rules of logic and dialectic as a banner to hide the emotionalism they are quick to pin on others in a last refuge ad-hominem attack, e.g., "hate-mongers," [the final refuge for those who have lost an argument but seek to save face. As a law student myself I don't recognize the message boards as a court of law, nor have I absolutized the legal realm as many with a background are inclined to do at the expense of often personal relationships. You need not respond to this, you may post this for others if it has any substantive value that you can see, so long as you keep me anonymous. Subj: Re:Shridevi Date: 96-03-07 11:54:23 EST From: Shridevi Thank you E, Dissent, Howie and anonymous. Yes, E. You're right. I left SY because I outgrew it. AND it is important to know how BAD it can get in there too. Broohaha - you really amaze me. Second post and I'm still blown away by you. You remind me of so many people. Get a (bad word) CLUE!!! Subj: Re:Shridevi Date: 96-03-07 11:57:05 EST From: Shridevi Dissent, so I seeeee. So you get upset unt you express your upset on zis board. I seeeee. Wow, so you're a human???? not a hate mongerer??? Thanks for reminding us. And more seriously, thank you sincerely for supporting me, for being yourself, for describing what it is like to be yourself, and for continuing to take the risks that you do and for taking responsibility for what risks you are willing to take. I support you. Subj: Re:Shridevi Date: 96-03-07 11:59:50 EST From: Shridevi Just one more thing. I have long felt protected by Howie's willingness to be extreme and take the heat for speaking the truth. I just want to acknowledge that service. It seems that someone will get attacked no matter how well integrated their posts are (thanks, broo) and so I'm glad it is NOT me on a regular basis. Subj: Changes in SYDA Yoga Folders Date: 96-03-07 12:35:16 EST From: GoldenSeva I will be doing some "house cleaning" of the Hinduism Board that will affect all SYDA Yoga folders. I will be decreasing the number of folders where this topic is discussed so that others may start new folders for their interests (the current limit here is 50). It appears to me that all the folders have pretty much the same type of posts/information in them and that it makes more sense to have them all in one folder. The creation of new folders seems to be mostly out of some peoples desire to create a folder for people that are involved in SYDA Yoga and want to share/discuss their experiences. Each time this is done, people that do not support SYDA yoga tend to dominate the folder. So here is what I am doing: renaming the original folder (Siddha Yoga 1), where the ethics debate began, to Siddha Yoga: Ethics Debate. Rename Siddha Yoga (2) to SYDA Yoga: Supporters Forum. This folder will be reserved for people who want to express support for the SYDA teaching, teachers and other supporters. WARNING: posts that are off topic I.E. in reference to the ethics debate may be deleted with out notice as off topic & "harassment" (see AOL Terms of service, key word TOS, then select Rules of the Road part 1 see # 9 ii Harassment) All other SYDA folders will be deleted Monday 3/11. If you want to copy any posts you will need to do so before then. Post and express what you want but WHERE APPROPRIATE. Please respect the right of others to do so as well. Subj: Larry's rah rah rah Date: 96-03-07 09:24:43 EST From: Howie Sm Larry, You say <<>> Dear AOL readers, I warmly agree with Larry--and (with some exasperation!) would like to point out that this is what I've been saying, doing, and calling for all along. I've noticed that pseudo-bhaktas target me (Howie) as the locus classicus of the ASPIRITUAL GODZILLA. I get this bum rap, perhaps because the way I express the good word doesn't fit somebody's standard-issue spiritual stereotype, and because I write sentences like this that don't beat around the bush. So let's set the record straight. I'll start the "luv in" Larry is calling for: TRUE CONFESSION I like and love many SYDAites, and enjoy what are going to be lifelong friendships with some. The "bottom" is indeed higher than the "top" in that organization. May I add one thing to Larry's call? Let's hear it for humor! Some think that Gurumayi is a portal to infinity, while others think she is a (expletive deleted). This colossal discrepancy produces a perfect humor zone. Can't we all laugh with one another on this? Laughter's good for the soul. There is room for all of us to say what we want to, and still plenty besides for humor. Let's hear it for humor! I almost forgot: ZOMBIE! Subj: Re:Larry's rah rah rah Date: 96-03-07 12:18:45 EST From: Shridevi Ya see, Howeee (can I call you by your pet name here in public?) I left SY because there were too FEW people like you. Where were you? Geez man, Hari Giri baba walks around with rocks in his pocket and in Siddha Yoga you can't even tell a good joke. I mean, a joke that might actually have some TRUTH in it. Geez. People take themselves so freeekin seriously. This was what was really bummin' me out. You know in Ann Arbor, they had this SYCC workshop with Ram Butler. Yours truly gave an experience talk. Ram spent hours trying to get the particularly uptite Ann Arbor devotees to loosen up. Then, when it was all over, Ram offered me a ride home. And these Ann Arborites, one of them, I think it was Pramoda Slomovitz (woah a name) actually went to check up on Ram and make sure he was back at home and not somewhere doing some bad thing with me. This is an extreme example of uptightness, not to mention totally insulting, degrading, disrespectful, scapegoating of me. But I'm used to that. Gosh. It was like catholic boarding school. All my friends with really good senses of humor were (for other reasons) eventually kicked out. I was told that if I ever spoke to them again I would be kicked out too. Which I ignored of course. So when they DID kick me out, it was a good thing it was for something I didn't do, because then I could really let them have it. They had a big apology session. Zenita was there. (Colin's wife) She just wanted to show us the necklace she bought for gurumayi. She thought I was not in tune with the shakti because I put too many things on the arati tray. I was not hip to the new way of putting together an arati tray (in the old days they would put a piece of jewelry on sometimes to represent wealth but they don't do that anymore so I was not in tune with the shakti). I'm rambling. I'm relieved. I'm relieved to have a few less clones in my immediate circumstance. Do I sound nasty? Well, once again, you see, for me partly this board is an opportunity to just get loose. If I step on a few toes, well, I'll come back as a slug, k? They also didn't like how I dressed. I didn't dress like an executive secretary. (that is how you're supposed to dress as a woman, or were anyway.) I dressed like an artist and I actually looked good. So they thought that I was being seductive. Geez. Sigh. Exhale. Oh, and yeah. I was never into those little poofy bows in my hair. Solo - you remember those poofy bows? I can't relate. Not my style. Now, I also have fond memories of those people in ann arbor too. don't get me wrong. I'm jus' letting it out, ya know? later, s. Subj: Re:Larry's rah rah rah Date: 96-03-07 12:36:20 EST From: Shridevi Also, I'm sure you're all going to read my gazillion posts in the now titled "ethics debate" folder. I just want to re-iterate the last one where I second Larry and acknowledge a shift. One of the things that the world's nations are trying to come to grips with is the relationship between our commonality and our diversity as humans. Hopefully this will be a place where we can practice that. s. Subj: cult members Date: 96-03-07 15:06:50 EST From: Brooohaaha If you could hear yourselves objectively, you'd be embarassed. You have become more cultist than any cult you are fighting against, more ruthless than any Afif, more close minded than any zombie. Subj: Re: cult tactics Date: 96-03-07 15:57:15 EST From: Brooohaaha Even Goldenseva had to step in to put an end to the cult tactics being used by the "hate club" members in this forum to quelch any opposing viewpoints through humiliation and harrassment. What a bunch of losers. Subj: Wow Date: 96-03-07 16:36:22 EST From: Cassyette Wow, I just found this whole area of america online. I just read through (or at least scanned through) most of the messages on these SY folders. I have a lot of thoughts about it all. I left SY years ago because of a lot of this stuff. But if Shrideva is who I think she is, based on all the information she gave, I was younger than you in the ashram, and I remember you chasing after all the ashram boys. I used to be surprised at all the stuff you'd say and do with them. This isn't a judgement about whether you got raped or not, but its interesting that you're here now as the victim. Subj: Swami Howie Predicts! Date: 96-03-07 16:39:51 EST From: Howie Sm ****SWAMI HOWIE PREDICTS ZOMBIE INFESTATION ON SOON-TO-BE ETHICS FOLDER*********** Dear SYDA folder visitors, The (infinitely patient) GoldenSeva's idea of keeping the number of folders to two is great. Ironically, my guess is that the ethics folder will be "where it is at" for many zombies--including monitoring SYDA officials as well as the more strident apologists. SYDA supporters (except when they play defenders of the faith) seem to have nothing to dialogue about since every answer has already been provided by their leader's thought-system. (I don't consider paraphrase, playing guru (per script), and experiential exhibitionism dialogue.) Zombies now must go to the ethics folder if they want to rebut SYDA critics--right? They are not allowed to rebut "ethics" messages on the "supporter" folder--right? If this is so, the "supporter" folder will be restricted to the kind of talk SYDA allows. (The mind boggles!) Since even zombies need stimulation and will no doubt grow bored with "SYDA-approved" dialogue, my guess is that on the ethics folder there will probably still be frequent interruptive zombie groanings. Where I sit, it seems that the zombies gravitate towards the critics and not vice versa. This will be borne out by "HOWIE'S PREDICTION" (see header). Zombies have the whole rest of the world and a propaganda machine spreading their "truth" to boot, yet nonetheless can't get enough of SYDA critics, and insist on controlling the critics' little Navajo-reservation-sized AOL space! There is so much of interest in SYDA, on so many levels. AOL has just recognized that the critics have a right to speak to these issues online. Great--otherwise I wouldn't pay my bill this month. As to what the content of the supporter folder will amount to--I shudder to think! ****SWAMI HOWIE PREDICTS ZOMBIE INFESTATION ON SOON-TO-BE ETHICS FOLDER*********** Subj: Brooohaahaa, lawyer-wannabe Date: 96-03-07 16:47:08 EST From: Howie Sm Brooohaahaa, <<>> My word, articulate (in a characteristic Brooohaahaa sort of way). Almost like a brief. I trust you will be confining yourself to the SYDA supporter folder then? Since you regard me as a charter member of the "hate club," I must confess that I feel Goldenseva's plan will give me a boost, rather than "put an end to Howie." I imagine this rains on your parade, but there it is. Subj: Re:Wow Date: 96-03-07 16:54:39 EST From: Dissent222 Cassyette - your post attempts to discredit Shridevi. I know other young women who were sexually harrassed and molested in the ashram. I also know that anyone asking about them is always told, about all of them, that these young women were provocative, loose, sluts, etc. I know some of these young women and I know that SYDA lies about them, plain, unadulterated lies - to protect the abusers. That's one of the main reasons I left the ashram, by the way, because a friend of mine was lied about by Namdev Hayes, called mentally unbalanced and sexually provocative, after being sexually harassed and molested by George Afif. Gurumayi's response was also to blame the girl, and protect Afif. As has always been her response - stand by your man and all that. Has SYDA asked you to get online and try to discredit Shridevi? Are ashramites now online, using Gurumayi's favorite technique of twisting and distorting the truth, so that those who speak out against her lies and corruption are termed "hate mongerers", and some kind of "cult?" And the discrediting begins. I have no doubt that as the revelations on the new ethics board continue, SYDA will up its efforts to discredit anyone who says anything there. How else can they protect themselves from the revelations - ther REAL experience talks? They would never dare to acknowledge the truth about their illegal activities - they would be put out of business and barred from this country. P.S. - If Brooo is a SYDA plant, may I suggest in the future that SYDA require a minimum IQ for all their plants of at least 75? Just to make it more interesting. Subj: Re:Wow Date: 96-03-07 17:06:08 EST From: Soloflyr11 when i first read broo's message i even had the thought that howie might have planted them to stir up trouble and make syda look foolish. sorry howie i tend toward paranoia. Subj: sex Date: 96-03-07 17:08:36 EST From: Soloflyr11 shree, they did seem to have some problems about sexuality in siddha yoga wouldn't ya say? seems to be something that is still unresolved for many people on the "spiritual paths". wouldn't ya say? ;) solo Subj: Re:Wow Date: 96-03-07 17:10:10 EST From: E3346 Cassy, YIKES! Is that to say that girls who chase boys deserve to be sexually abused and/or raped? I don't understand your point. E Subj: Soloflyr: Is Howie Broo? Date: 96-03-07 19:38:01 EST From: Howie Sm Soloflyr11, Hi! No apology needed for thinking Broohaahaa was me in drag, or some such thing. In fact, thanks for the chuckle! (And warm thanx back to you--it's been a pleasure; you know what I mean.) Dear AOL readers, I don't need to make up (nor am I capable of making up) characters like Broohaahaa in order to make SYDA look foolish. I don't need to do anything to make SYDA look foolish. They do a cracker jack job of it themselves! For example, they have a course called "How to Explain Siddha Yoga to Friends" for teenagers. (Perhaps in the genre of: "How to explain crazy Aunt Dodie in the basement to your fiancee.") They really should hire me to write the SYDA course . . . . Subj: Siddha curriculum Date: 96-03-07 20:05:45 EST From: Bob1258487 Would someone please detail for me what goes on in Siddha Yoga classes like the "No Ego," "Seva" or "Fire" courses? I never got around to taking one of them, but remember everyone gossiping about people getting "busted" in there. But nobody ever got specific, so please tell me, what went on in there? If you don't want to get detailed in public, please E-mail me. Subj: Re:Shridevi Date: 96-03-07 21:35:15 EST From: PattyV1953 I am also amazed at the insensitivity of Brouhaha's inquiries of Shridevi. If you have been profoundly abused, you recognize as self-preservation and protection the reluctance-in-details of one who has been told too many times to keep the unpleasant truth to themselves. Shamed silence is a classic and very effective "big lie" tool. Revelation is only healing in the most protected of circumstances. An online forum is NOT it! Satya Subj: Re:Three Cheers for humanity Date: 96-03-07 18:59:13 EST From: Howie Sm Hey Larry, I didn't mean to put you on the defensive by bringing up humor. I'm 100% with you on your "ra ra ra" post, and brought up humor not to imply that you don't have any, but just because it occurred to me. Nothing more to it than that. I like to think we have more similarities than differences. I look forward to airing both. Some signoff jokes (that I hope are taken lightly, for crying out loud): Q. Why did the SYDA zombie stagger and fall into a full pranam at the guru's feet? A. After a 15 hour work day, tofu carrion-livers didn't adequately supply its nutritional needs. EQUAL TIME Q. What's Howie's problem? A. He's still trying to recover from being separated from his Siamese twin brother, Broohaahaa. Subj: Re:Siddha curriculum Date: 96-03-07 22:53:21 EST From: Dissent222 >>Would someone please detail for me what goes on in Siddha Yoga classes like the "No Ego," "Seva" or "Fire" courses?>> Gladly. George Afif and/or Gurumayi sat in a hidden place during these courses, with a mike into the ear of the MC if the MC was visible, or just telling them what to say if they were not visible. The Programming people, the MC and Afif and GM had with them personal letters sent to GM by many of the participants in the course. When those participants were called on to stand up and face the fire, or whatever, the MC would be fed things to say that would include references to what people had written in their letters to GM. This would sometimes be very personal things, painful things, secret confessions, and so on. People with problems in getting along with others in the ashram were singled out for especially cruel treatment, and would be told very cruel, contemptuous things about themselves, and publicly humiliated, night after night. Then they would get thrown out of the hall, and told to leave the ashram. Some of them would later get rehabilitated, with GM being nice to them. Kind of like the way battering husbands work - make you helpless and terrorized, beat you up, then be nice to you. You come to feel like your abuser is your savior. In fact, anyone ever read Judith Herman's book, "Trauma and Recovery"? She describes the batterer and she could be describing to a tee the techniques of Afif and Gurumayi: "the ultimate effect of these techniques is to convince the victim that the perpetrator is omnipotent, that resistance is futile, and that her life depends upon winning his indulgence through absolute compliance. The goal of the perpetrator is to instill in his victim not only fear of death but also gratitude for being allowed to live." Can anyone relate to this? This is how I felt my entire 10 years in the ashram. As i told Shridevi in a recent e-mail to her, I am a man, and in spite of how shameful it is to say this, I felt a feeling of being raped, incested and battered by Gurumayi. Because of my seva she spoke extensively to me at one point every day for many months. She never stopped giving me more to do and insulting me more and more at the same time, saying the cruellest things she could say to me. She knew what they were because I was constantly confessing to her, trying to make myself pure enough to be worthy of her love. I trusted her completely, like a parent, and she took advantage of my trust to force her ugly, hateful words into me, twisting her knife in my wounds. The battering insults would alternate with kind looks and perks of various kinds. When she was finished with me, after months of this treatment (I'm giving just a hint of what acutally happened) I could barely speak, I cried all the time whenever I was alone, and I had panic anxiety. She told me to leave the ashram and expected me to pay her $20,000 for "what she had given me." You know what? I paid some of it. It took me 2 years to break free of the mind control, and a lot of work since to understand why I needed to debase myself to the extent I did in order to feel worthy. The good news is: I don't have to anymore. I'm a very happy man now and the best years of my life are ahead of me. One of the things I do, even though I'm very busy, is work to expose the corruption and abuse in SYDA. Thanks to all of you on here who have helped me - you are a great community!!! Subj: Denial: How frogs adapt Date: 96-03-08 01:44:09 EST From: SadguruNut Hi everyone! I haven't followed these postings and conversations very much, however I decided I'd go ahead and post some of my thoughts and see what you all think. I lived in various ashrams and was "on-tour" with Baba and his successors for close to seven years. Around the time Nityananda was "dethroned" I was blacklisted for being friends with him and for knowing too much about what happened. Until then, I enjoyed a closeness with Gurumayi and many of the people central to Siddha Yoga. Currently, I teach corporate seminars on subjects like Stress Management, Effective Listening and Conflict Management. Some of the common themes I discuss in all these seminars have to do with general human ideals. In order to be successful in most endeavors, the ideals most of us regard as important must be valued and practiced. When we think of the teachings all the worlds great philosophies and religions have in common the following are probably the first that come to mind: Honesty, respect for others and all life, truth, compassion, non-injury to others, and love. As much as we all agree with them, it is usually very inconvenient and disruptive to stand up for and live by these ideals within ourselves, in our relationships, in our jobs, and even our spiritual organizations. As a result, we tend to avoid confronting ourselves and others with violations of what we know in our hearts to be true and righteous. In order to do that, I believe we must employ one, or a combination of, the following: go into denial, concentrate ONLY on what feels good, or simply ADAPT. Being able to adapt to things is a very important quality in a rapidly changing world. However there are inherent dangers in denial and adaptation. As an example, in our culture we are currently trying to adapt to levels of stress, social dis-ease and environmental degradation that are clearly unhealthy. A study was undertaken several years ago in which researchers wanted to find out how frogs would react to a very stressful situation. A group frogs were all dropped into a pot of boiling water. Did they die? Of course not. Every one of them immediately jumped out of the pot. Any one of us would react the same way. Every instinct in our bodies would propel us out before we instantly. During the second part of the experiment, the same frogs were placed in the pot of water. This time however, the water was at room temperature. After they were placed in the pot, the heat was turned on. After some time, the water came to a boil. What do you suppose happened to frogs this time? They all stayed and they all died! (continued) Subj: Denial : Frogs continued Date: 96-03-08 01:45:10 EST From: SadguruNut In both cases the frogs were in boiling water. Why did they jump out the first time and stay in the second time? The researchers concluded that the frogs had adapted to the gradual change. Although being able to adapt is generally a good thing, it's not a good idea to adapt to something that's unhealthy and destructive. Upon hearing stories about the dark side of Siddha Yoga, many of us adapt, or avert our attention and concentrate on what feels good. Yes, you may be able to maintain the joy and bliss the "fairy tale outlook" affords you, but there is likely a significant price to pay. When we hear about the lies, the injustices, the abuse, and the betrayal of our deepest faith and trust, adaptation and denial can be very spiritually and emotionally hazardous. These disturbing thoughts will not disappear or just fade away. They are stored in some part of our consciousness, living and most likely growing there (not unlike a cancer). Over time, it takes more and more of our psychic and emotional energy to suppress these thoughts. We can't do that forever. Eventually, in order to be truly free, and isn't that the goal of Siddha Yoga, we must face the WHOLE truth, not just the part that appeals to us and makes us feel good! ("Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free") Baba often spoke of the need of examining everything, including the Guru, with our "right eye". The "eye" of discrimination. While he encouraged us to have faith, he warned us against having "blind faith". The teachings have always described Siddha Yoga as a "warriors path". It is my experience (and that of many I know) that some of the most powerful insights and growth in one's sadhana come when one takes their knowledge, their truth and their practices and leaves the confines of the Siddha Yoga organization. Have faith in your Self! And be a warrior! Keep in mind, there is life after the ashram!!! And, there is plenty of grace everywhere! I welcome your thoughts, ideas and feedback. With love and respect, SadguruNut Subj: New in the Library Date: 96-03-08 06:36:22 EST From: Dissent222 When the Open Letter was first posted last August (1995), a discussion followed here on AOL for about a month. This discussion has been edited and archived and is now available on the Hinduism File Library here on AOL. It's about 150 pp. long, but has many fascinating facts and details and experiences. Go to the Hinduism File Library, and download "SYDA Open Letter Discussion 8/95". If you have any technical difficulties, let me know and I'll try to help. Dissent Subj: Larry/casual SYDA fun Date: 96-03-08 08:45:53 EST From: Howie Sm Larry, in your defense of the embattled SYDA gurus, you say <<<>>> That's because you don't know her up close. Keep in mind that your casual SYDA fun is had off the backs of sevites, some of whom are systematically misled into a life of slavery, only to be cruelly discarded after being drained of their youth and ideals. Some of the old ex-swamis are wrecks. Rather than supporting them for 80,000 lifetimes, SYDA's boss doesn't give two hoots in hell for her human discards. Some of these sincere folks used to feed us with their own hands, and have tears of love for us in their eyes. Little did they know then that they would become discombobulated near-suicide cases upon reaching middle age. The rank-and-file devotees assume that the discarded ones are scarlet-letter people of some type. For all this, SYDAites shouldn't try to play the innocent. Their narcissitic fun has a social price. Subj: Larry's critique of Dissent Date: 96-03-08 08:54:14 EST From: Howie Sm Larry, in your back-handed discrediting of Dissent, you say <<<>> Here, you concede that SYDA is misleading on at least some level. Your point has been, I think, that though there are negatives, the positives outweigh the negatives. But why think of it as a balance sheet problem--can't we have only positives by sidestepping SYDA altogether? Or are you saying that SYDA is in some sense a NECESSITY, its negatives notwithstanding, and thus something to be defended--even if grudgingly at times? Positives aren't inevitably hitched to negatives. So to argue that we should hang on to SYDA because the positives outweight the negatives is no argument at all. This is the apologist argument. It misleads newcomers. If all newcomers hear is one side of the story, they will waste time sorting through SYDA's various misleading claims. We can see through both eyes--to borrow Robert's idea--without publicly endorsing online an apologist position that misleads newcomers and onlookers. Subj: Larry's conundrum Date: 96-03-08 09:02:43 EST From: Howie Sm Larry, in your defense of corrupt SYDA, you say <<<>>> No conundrum at all--yoga works in places of repute and ill-repute both. It has and always will. Why be stuck on SYDA once you learn the truth about the SYDA leadership? All of us have the option of enjoying our practices in spots where we can have a clear conscience. Being stuck on SYDA reveals a lack of faith in spirit's omnipresence, and a weakness of the will. Larry, you say <<<>>> She knows what's going on. If she's so dumb that she doesn't, that raises even more serious questions about her qualifications! Your statement combines buck-passing with benefit-of-the-doubting. Go one step further with this thinking and one ends up with: "the motives and ways of the Siddha are inscrutable." This party line is a panacea rationalization. It was used to explain how Baba having sex with little girls was a high yogic ritual. After a certain point, why get caught up in analyzing people's motives--the guy was bonkers and so is his successor, and people are being hurt. Besides, if one really wants to know motives, they should go up close and inspect. But people don't do that, but merely nourish their fantasies about her from afar. Why? Because of brainwashing. There are too many disciples, so SYDA brainwashes people into constructing fantasies about her using the propaganda as an information base. The reasons for this brainwashing are partly practical: there are too many disciples for them to encourage everyone to form a real relationship with her. How much do you need to see? You really should take more seriously people who have been on the inside, people who do know what you don't. I believe this kind of discussion is good for the spiritual community. Again, thanks for your messages. Subj: Re:hippocrates Date: 96-03-08 12:21:33 EST From: Shridevi << Clearly my interest in investigating the truth and facts of a particular situation was very threatening to some of the people who are interested enough in their agenda to spend a great deal of time and a decent amount of money to try to convince everyone of their point of view. >> Broohaha, you spent a certain amount of cyberenergy trying to convince me to reveal more of the facts of my life. Please know that it is not because I backing off my precious agenda that I didn't respond to you. It is because this is my life. And this is cyberspace. And I am probably the most vulnerable and honest person on this board. I don't have enough information about anybody on this board to know anything about them, except that Satya lives in Buffalo. That's about it. But there is enough information about me for some people who know me to recognize me. Some remember how I was lied about and scapegoated and made into things I was not. Some only remember the lies and still think that is who I am. It hurts. That is all. I am an adult now. I can set limits. And spewing my essence onto this board so YOU can feel justified in whatever, is not within my boundaries. If you were to e-mail me, tell me who you are, establish a genuine relationship with me, as others have done in a genuine spirit of human kindness (people on both sides of the proverbial siddha yoga fence by the way) then you would know a lot more about the so call "facts" of my so called "case." I am not a case. I am a person. Warmly, Shreedevi. PS. Nor am I a "hippocrate" Subj: larry Date: 96-03-08 12:50:59 EST From: Shridevi it is not broohaha's "sense making" that i object to. yes, i agree, he makes sense within a certain context. it is just that the rational sense and the human sense need to be negotiated. love and discrimination and all that. the stuff about the "ex-cultists" sounding "cultic" is a critique I myself have made over the years. it is sort of a deconstructive move which is useful. i just think we have to really use all of our sensibilities here, and i feel that broohaha is missing some connection to, like, me as a person that he is talking to. i agree about anger. i don't worry about it coming up and going away. it does that on its own. i do wonder if 'nice' is really part of the Siddha Yoga teachings. but that is a longer conversation. i agree that it is good to respect each other. lets face it, we're all human and sometimes were better at that than at other times. no one on this board is a total (hatemonger?) and no one is a spiritual angel either. loving people, being clear and empty (in the buddhist sense) and compassionate (in the sense of 'suffering with') are not necessarily the same thing as being 'nice.' i'm sure you would agree, i'm just opening a discussion. bye larry, s. Subj: a few quick comments Date: 96-03-08 13:27:08 EST From: Soloflyr11 yes larryom, i do think i need to balance with some more meditation, this "debate" can get very stirring.... howie, god bless your rhetorical strength. and your humor.... mira, do hope you stick around.... even though you were disappointed by shree i do hope you also understand how it might feel in her position....and i do rather agree that charlie comes across a bit self rightous or something sometimes even if he says he's lazy and all.....sorry charlie, peace.... shree-i'm still applauding...i rather agree with you:<<>> . each in their own unique way...... dissent-you are a total delight for me!!!!!!!!! even when you loose it... tell me if some one gets angry or looses it, does that make them a bad person???.... you don't need to answer obviously..... by the way, i don't know about you, but my "jungle" hasn't dried up yet..... pretty juicy actually.... broohaahaa- oops. don't think you meant hippocrates. <>American Heritage Dictionary....(i hope this prints correctly, i copied from my computer dictionary, and symbols may mess up... we'll see...) thot it was a sort of cute "freudian slip" though..... later, solo Subj: Hi, I'm Dissent Date: 96-03-08 17:30:11 EST From: Dissent222 Hi, I'm Dissent. Some of the people who say they don't trust me are people who once looked up to me as a speaker, teacher and figure of authority in SYDA. Many SYDA devotees, all over the world, welcomed me in their homes, fed me their food, gave me their love, shed their tears and laughed with me. I had SYDA friends in almost every city in the US, and all over the world. I still can't get on an airplane without thinking I'll bump into a devotee. And then I remember, that if I do bump into these people, and I bump into many where I live, their smile will freeze when they see me, they're eyes glaze over, they seem surprised to know I'm doing well; they bolt the moment I say I have left SYDA, they get away as fast as they can. One of them told a friend of mine, "He's fallen from grace." That is quite a thing to say about another person. Clearly, Gurumayi is God and whatever one says against her, no matter how true, is blasphemy. Sounds like a cult to me. Larry, you're worried about what was edited out of the archive, because I edited it. Apparently I am the Anti-Gurumayi, some inhuman being with the power to derange others through my devious and diabolical mission to spread evil and hatred in the world.. Sitaram, I'm just a guy you used to like. Yeah, you know me. In the archive, I've edited some of the posts that were irrelevant to the debate, and, as is stated at the beginning of the file, some of the PRO posts got edited, because the purpose of the file is to highlight the CONS. There is a multi-million dollar mega-corporation very busy laundering money that does nothing but promote SYDA - so I let the file stay focused mainly on the protest, but with some of the major defenders represented. Anyway, it's hard for me to reveal myself as Shridevi has done, so bravely. I lost more than 10 years of income - can you comprehend what that means? I cannot let myself be sued. I can't give myself away. Those who know me through private e-mail are very kind, and again I thank you for your support. It is hurtful and painful to be scorned by SYDA defenders here; I used to be welcomed by SYDA devotees wherever I went. But I would rather be contempted by defenders here than let parents bring their children to SYDA, where if they are sexually abused, the abusers will be protected. There is a pedophile in Oakland ashram right now, whom SYDA has defended. They have attacked his accusers and banned the accusers from the AShram, and the pedophile remains. Anyone out there want to corroborate this? So I'll take the contempt, if at least some people get the message - beware of harm in SYDA, beware of losing your integrity and your dignity in SYDA - beware of losing your self. Subj: To friends of Vedananda Date: 96-03-08 20:04:26 EST From: Howie Sm Dear friends of Vedananda, The former Swami Vedananda has been travelling with and promoting Nityananda Mahamandaleshwar's spiritual programs. This includes participating in Nityananda's intensive tours. He also teaches spiritual philosophy on his own. In spiritual contexts, he goes by the name Veda, and introduces himself as a disciple of Swami Muktananda. Friends of Vedananada probably can find out how to get in touch with him by calling Nityananda at (914) 744-6462. Disclaimer: This is by no means an endorsement of Nityananda. It is an endorsement of friends trying to find one another post-SYDA. Subj: To Dissent, with thanks Date: 96-03-08 20:33:30 EST From: Howie Sm Dear Dissent, SYDA should have the whistle blown on it. A sadistic guru should not be allowed to run amok. Please keep telling your experience, for there are indeed those out there who are hearing it. I too get e-mail from friendly people who use screen names and e-mail addresses that I've never seen online here. So people are listening, and listening sympathetically. Some of them have told me they are afraid to post their experiences. But they are watching--and I'm sure cheering you on. Since blowing the whistle on sadistic SYDA obviously won't put an end to yoga or to anyone's "experiences," there is no good explanation for the concerted effort to discredit you. Except, perhaps, that those attacking you are ethically deaf and blind. Listening to these people has been an eye-opener. For what it's worth, I'm cheering you on. Subj: yoga on board Date: 96-03-08 21:32:20 EST From: Shridevi It feels like this little jab and twist kind of action when comments continue to be made about how this "ethics debate" board is not as "spiritual and yogic" as one which only talks about "the good things" about Siddha Yoga. I know, and I feel as much as anyone how difficult it is to sit with the negativity that flies around on this board. I consider my sitting with it and staying within my truth and the big truth to be a way of doing yoga. I often think it would be nice to also have a post where ex-devotees could just support each other with a lot of love and compassion and not have to be attacked all the time. I would like to have the kind of board that the "yogis" have. I think that some of the healing that has taken place between people here is a very courageous, yogic endeavor. I think we should give ourselves some credit. Spirituality, true spirituality, is not a "righteous" endeavor. It is, ultimately, one that challenges our self-clinging at the root. Perhaps this is why every esoteric tradition talks about the need to break apart the sacred forms. Spiritual alchemy. To me, this is what makes Shaivism so profound. It does not hold apart certain aspects of life as "sacred" as opposed to others which are not. Na Shivam Vidyate Kva Chit. That is a very radical approach, there. It is way more sophisticated than the New Age sort of pastel approach. This leaving Siddha Yoga business can be a very powerful boost to one's sadhana actually. That may sound counter-intuitive to some. But to the wisdom tradtions, this is perfectly natural. As a tibetan teacher in this vein said "The effort to secure our happiness, to maintain ourselves in relation to something else, is the process of ego. As long as we follow a spiritual path promising salvation, miracles, liberation then we are bound by the "golden chain of spirituality." Such a chain might be beautiful to wear, with its inlaid jewels and intricate carvings, but nevertheless it imprisons us. As long as one's approach to spirituality is based upon enriching the ego, then it is spiritual materialism, a suicidal process rather than a creative one." Here "enriching" or "deconstructing" the ego is not a matter of pride or being humiliated publicly. It is about understanding how we cling to smallness by identifying with and defending certain states against others. Masters, Muktananda included, often talked about how the ego was so brilliant to identify with the spiritual path, because then it could hide. It wouldn't get discovered. This leaving Siddha Yoga process, for me, is not at all about revenge or contraction and defense of an "anti-cult cultism." It is about relaxing and listening to my heart. It is about being fearless enough to let go of what seemed to be the most important part of my life and having the faith that God is with me. Does this pass as yoga? S. Subj: alone Date: 96-03-09 12:39:45 EST From: Soloflyr11 Thought this was relevant, and i couldn't have said it better.... Page 179 of "Enlightenment is a secret" by Andrew Cohen. "True loneliness will be discovered by any human being bold enough to see things as they are. If you would be so brave and are so fortunate to realize that which is true, then it is unavoidable at the same time that you will also see that which is untrue. The more you become aware of that which is real, then much of what you thought was real will suddenly be seen as unreal. For many this can be quite hard to bear. Penetrating clarity destroys all illusions. When you are no longer interested in illusions, then you will find yourself alone. When illusion is seen through, you will discover true loneliness. You will only be with yourself then." Subj: Re:on the fence Date: 96-03-09 13:20:40 EST From: Shridevi <> this is an old one, but i wanted to return. thinking - musing beyond what was intended originally. here goes. actually, there are many psychological theories about dreams, not all of which (probably not many of which) would generalize like that. another theory on nightmares, one which is lately considered as "cutting edge" because it goes beyond the rampant subjectivism in the field of psychotherapy, goes like this: when you are starting to break out of the prison of archetypes, when you are beginning to challenge their numinous hold upon you, you often have nightmares. these nightmares are your psychic implants trying to regain control of your consciousness, trying to tell you that it is too scarey to leave the agreed upon reality frame. Remember Jacob wrestling with the angel? I once ran a salon for psychotherapists in which we discussed the following: Boundaries, margins, limits, potential, frontiers represent territory at the edges of our reality frame - as far as we have gone so far, but not as far as we might go. Markers of the yet unexplored territory. The guardians of these frontiers serve the collective reality frame by encouraging us to turn back. (And they don't necessarily use violent intimidation tactics, but using a much more effective method. Numinous experience.) By romanticizing our myths, we fail to see how/that they serve this second function of containment. We come to the edge, to the mythic edge, and feel the power of the pure archetype. Then we think: "this is it. I've arrived." Not necessarily, maybe just begun. We can wrestle with the archetypes, wrestle with socially constructed consciousness, wrestle with what makes us feel 'safe', feel that we 'know.' i'm saying it in a really oversimplified way, of course. part of my healing process is to discriminate about interpretations that are offered me, including and especially ones designed to 'heal' me. Subj: nightmares Date: 96-03-09 17:22:34 EST From: Soloflyr11 hey shree, i'm dumbstruck again. but at the same time i feel an urge to ramble on such matters. thanx for sharing the cutting edge theory on nightmares, i rather enjoyed it. a few years ago i struggled a lot trying to understand this phenomena that ocassionally overcomes me, a feeling like i am living in a nightmare. now after some profound experiences i am no longer quite so puzzled with that. i have learned of my unconscious, directly, and of it's untold fears and other such secrets. now if i have a sense of nightmare, or actually have a nightmare it does not seem very puzzling to me, i usually can see what is being triggered. and indeed sometimes the fear is my fear of the unknown, fear of loosing control, a holding on with all my might to the security of my world view (<>). the guardians i have met are truly strong and *very* tricky. and the twist of it has always been that when i finally let go of such reality frames (and mind you it is one heck of a struggle for me, not always successful) there i find the door to freedom. no longer holding on to a fixed view of what is, but remaining opened to what is, is for me a wonderful and liberating feeling. nothing to fear but fear alone has become a bit of a reality to me.... solo p.s. i gotta cop to the fact that it really takes a lot of guts for me to sling these posts out there, but hey one more fear to not run from.... i'm using my impulsive energy to do it.....flinggggg p.s.s. wish you could see my 140lb dog at this moment, legs in the air, upside down, a warm cuddly sight but also quite comical. Subj: women's makeup, cloning Date: 96-03-09 21:52:01 EST From: Howie Sm Dear readers of the November 1995 New Yorker article detailing SYDA abuses, Do you remember the incident in which the airport security guard described the SYDA people sent to intimidate Nityananda as "clones"? Dear women of SYDA, Is there a directive that women be rendered similar in appearance? Is there an explanation for the heavy women's makeup in SYDA? I don't mean good ol' makeup, I mean something that approximates "stage" makeup: evening makeup at a Def-Com-4 level of readiness. I remember accompanying someone to a local SYDA event and having the bejabbers scared out of me when what appeared at my passenger-side window (which was rolled up) were two entities: 1) The white cliffs of Dover with eyeballs. 2) A mandrill. I braced myself for a vision of Queen Elizabeth I, but she didn't show. Some of my friends--who had their own modest fashion sense and were quite beautiful naturally--became Jackson Pollack canvases after joining SYDA staff. Again, is there peer pressure to be visually-similar? Adding clothes into the picture, is it financially taxing for staffers to maintain the mandated "look"? Subj: Happy Birthday, Shridevi Date: 96-03-09 21:56:02 EST From: Dissent222 Wishing you a very happy birthday, Shridevi. Thank you for getting on here and speaking in your own voice. I hope you get to do some utterly selfish things for your birthday, purely for the sake of pleasure - yes, for the sake of SENSE PLEASURES!!!!!! Subj: Re:Happy Birthday, Shridevi Date: 96-03-09 23:05:17 EST From: Shridevi Don't worry dissent, I sure will. I love sense pleasures. Howie. Yes, I think there IS some weird feminine counter culture going down at SYDA. I was ragging about those poofy bows once, but that is just the half of it. First of all, you have to look like a 'fem.' Which means any woman whose instinct it is to look some other way is immediately marginalized. Marginalized in Siddha Yoga usually means, you sit in the back and get bad seva. (lets not get into platitudes about the equality of seva, k?) I think I mentioned that I never got the hang of the "def con four meets office manager" look. I still did get to sit up close, though. Sometimes really really close. So that blows all my hate mongering right there. At least I'll admit it. OK, guess what. I'm exaggerating. Having fun. (Just a birthday sense pleasure . . . maybe it will pass.) But its true. I used to have nightmares* (see previous posts for detailed and diverse definitions of nightmares, the function of nightmares, etc.) for years that I showed up at the ashram in like, the clothes I would clean my bathroom in. Not fun dreams, let me tell you. I used to notice that the women dressed up to the nines with full hair and make up jobs either a.) showed up 45 minutes late to the evening program or b.) did not do seva, or both. Getting ready for a purnahuti is even more intense. Hours of sari wrapping, wrapping your friends, rewrapping, scavenging for safety pins and don't forget all the ironing boards that you can't get your hands on. Yep. And then, of course, you have to hike a mile in your 700 dollar sari and SNEAKERS. Who needs a no-ego course, I ask you. Obviously someone who has never hiked in a sari and sneakers. At least in South Fallsburg there is no real culture around for hundreds of miles. I would hate to have to do that in like, New York City or Los Angeles. I did it once in Oakland, actually. Red dot on the forehead and all. Cars were slowing down, it was really "liberating." Oh, but the "look." Yes. And to SY's credit, where else do you get to get dressed up like you're going to the opera every night of the week? But it is really hard when you just can't keep up with the affluence thing. You do feel like you stand out. As a center leader, one of the things you are trained to talk to people about is why there is this dress thing. Lots of people, it turns out, are "resistant" to the idea that they have to dress a certain way for God. Of course, there is a lot of la di da about respect and being a form of worship, but c'mon. Subj: being brave Date: 96-03-10 01:59:18 EST From: JosieSchmo So I asked myself: Self, why are you giving it all up? After 9 years of beautiful experiences, beautiful visions, beautiful friends -- why are you walking away? Why are you closing the door? And my Self answered: Yes, beautiful experiences, beautiful visions, beautiful friends. And I found what I was looking for: God on the inside, love and strength on the inside, beauty and knowledge on the inside. Grace planted a seed of love inside me. When the seed of love began to sprout within I thanked the Guru and offered her my gratitude. She accepted my gratitude and gave me more. As time went on, the tender sprouts grew stronger. In my devotion to the Guru, I heard the Guru's message: offer everything to me and I shall set you free. The love inside you is mine, she said. I said, yes the love inside me is yours because you gave it to me. More time passed and the love inside grew very strong and could stand on its own. It became its own love. It became true love. And the Guru said, remember, your love belongs to me. And I said, Dear Guru, thank you for the seed of love, thank you for helping me nurture it, but this love is free and does not belong to you. It belongs to God and I am its caretaker. By holding so tightly onto it, and onto me, you are beginning to strangle me, you are beginning to strangle this love. I must wrestle myself loose from your grasp and love God in ALL God's fullness. Dear Guru, with a full and happy heart I am leaving you. Subj: JosieSchmo/SYDA entraps Date: 96-03-10 07:05:41 EST From: Howie Sm Dear JosieSchmo, you say <<>> Dear AOL readers, This last post shows yet another person who has experienced a furthering of their spiritual development by leaving SYDA. A great story. JosieSchmo says (s)he did not leave because of the corruption specifically, but because (s)he recognized that the guru was claiming credit for disciples' power, for their experiences. This "I claim credit for the good in your life" method is an entrapment strategy, one which is standard in destructive cults. It is a con. Many of us have had great experiences through yoga, both inside and outside of SYDA. The time has come to put those experiences in ethical context. There is no spiritual maturity in hanging onto SYDA after knowing that it is fraudulent and injuring some people grievously. To say this doesn't deny the reality of any spiritual development some may have experienced inside SYDA. That development was DESPITE SYDA, not because of it. How in our right minds can we credit our spiritual development to someone (Gurumayi) who is less ethical than we ourselves are? Who is less ethical than my next-door neighbors? The only way to do that is through some insane doublethink philosophy. It seems that some were put touch with something "higher," if you will, DESPITE SYDA's deceptive purpose. (Just because insane Gurumayi may believe her own shtick doesn't make SYDA any less deceptive.) Who really claims to understand the workings of the universe completely? Certainly not me. Given this, I don't think it is fair to require SYDA critics to come up with an "alternative theory of God" to replace SYDA's. Specifically, it is not fair to require SYDA critics to explain the "why" of people's spiritual experiences. But one thing is clear--people should not be villainized simply because they choose not to credit their spiritual experiences to a corrupt organization--and to talk freely about this point of view. The time has come for ethical yogis to take their experiences and run. Subj: SYDA's earphone carnie con Date: 96-03-10 07:32:17 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Gurumayi's use of an earphone rig to feed confidential information to a stooge-shill working the room is a standard carnie con, one that the public associates with phony evangelist healers. I kid you not: several gullible devotees subjected to SYDA's earphone CARNIE CON told me that the experience proved to them Gurumayi's "omniscience"! When brainwashed people say things like this to my face, I tend to stand speechless, gaping in dismay. They tend to then smile goonily (spiritually) back at me. Above all, SYDA is embarrassingly stupid. Detailing SYDA's shtick accurately, in all of its gory and embarrassing detail, is as damning as any allegation. One wonders how Jesus muddled through as a teacher without the earphone rig, the one-way mirror and the access to psychiatric profiles of disciples--the tools of SYDA's "Siddha" (perfect being). Note: the term "Siddha Yoga" has been copyrighted by the SYDA Foundation. (How did Jesus get by without copyright protection?) Subj: Dress code Date: 96-03-10 10:58:36 EST From: Dissent222 Well, here's my diagnosis of the dress code thing. By the way, staff are not just required to dress nicely, they need to smile, not frown. GM will spend countless hours confronting her staff about their habits or their facial expressions. She loves to point out your contemptible flaws to you relentlessly, letting you know how pathetically inadequate you are, and expecting gratitude to her for coming off her cloud and bestowing such beneficence on you. I've seen her spend countless man-hours on getting a staff member to stop wrinkling her brow when she talks to GM. Or she'll assign Swami Ishwarananda to teach Kshama Ferrar how to speak less irritatingly; or she'll command Swami Ish. to keep a diary of all the mistakes he makes, and to analyze why and confess all this in darshans with selected staff members who join in to correct him, all for his own good, of course. The point is, GM needs to fill her emptiness by amusing herself with infantalizing and manipulating her staff, draining their creative energy, making them believe they are nothing without her, and making them ever more and more dependent on her. And then of course, shaming them for being dependent - denying them sufficient money for their work to be anything but dependent. As for the women's dress code, it's a variation on the theme. GM requires that the people around her mirror back her desperately needed sense of omnipotence and grandiosity. It's the ultimate narcissistic folie a deux. The women have to look not just OK as they are, but special, wonderful, extraordinary, perfect. Otherwise, GM can't maintain her own equilibrium. It goes for the men, too -- Afif was constantly giving Valentino and Armani suits to the men and boys as gifts. He was making a little secret service cult out of the teenage boys, miniature James Bonds that could feed his unquenchable ego. And what about all the feminists, Meg Christian, for example, that now mince around looking like Barbie dolls, acting like Gurumayi is the Ken that has swept them off their feet and rescued, saved and transformed them? GM needs her victims as much as they neeed her; each for basically the same reason -- to fill the emptiness, to use each other as a means of warding off self-hatred and shame. Gurumayi's emptiness is so vast that nothing but absolute, ultimate control and perfection will do. And the devotee's needs for love, acceptance, peace of mind, idealism -- all this gets disorted and twisted into desperate narcissistic dependence. Yucccccccccccchhh. Subj: Re:Dress code Date: 96-03-10 12:06:18 EST From: Soloflyr11 ROTFL!!!! indeed i filled up a tank of gas more than once in the middle of oakland dressed in full purnahuti regalia, sari and sneakers. never realized what a fine spiritual practice it was.... howie, shridevi, this area upon which you touch (makeup/clothes) was, all kidding aside, a real ****ing drag. ha ha. (didn't do the drag pun intentionally.) frankly i felt like i had a costume on all the time. upon my departure i promise you that was the first thing that changed, i gave away all the clothes and threw away the makeup. swaha!!! so howie, it does appear to be more than peer pressure. center leaders are taught what to say about the clothes thing..... hhmmm? on the subject of nightmares, for about 5 years after leaving sy i had recurring ones. the dreams were always slightly different but they always had the same theme. i would be trying to escape from the ashram and i would be having great difficulty. i do seem to have made my escape because the dreams have stopped.... happy happy birthday shridevi, may your day overflow with sense pleasures. with love, solo p.s. just read your last post dissent. rah rah. tell it like it is! and that was the kinda stuff i saw too... Subj: Re:Dress code Date: 96-03-10 16:31:05 EST From: MDSNMAN Dissent, thank you. Your analysis of this dress business is insightful. But I think it is really part of a larger pathology: SYDA is OBSESSED WITH APPEARANCES. This is evident in so many ways. Staff are expected to appear affluent in spite of the fact that many, if not most, have little savings and are completely dependant upon GM for their next meal. They are expected to look youthful -- GM once told several of us men who were getting a little gray that she didn't like it and that we should dye our hair (Guess she liked that Lebanese-mafia look.) She prefers what she considers attractive-looking people in public roles. And I have seen her bounce those who didn't fit the mold. When I did hall seva for intensives and evening programs, we were expected to seat the better-dressed, prominent/wealthy and attractive up front for the cameras and for GMs narcisistic pleasure. (This was particularly obvious during satellite broadcasts, you will recall.) If there were gays, they had to look straight, or they went to the back. And, remember, GM's cheekbones weren't OK the way God made them (Figure that one out.) This obsession with appearances belies the shallowness of GM's realization. Subj: Carny con From : Dissent222 About that carny con earphone thing. Howie, you're right on here. There's also an aspect of this that I saw that I can add. People like Swami Ishwarananda and Durgananda are brilliant people, intelligent, creative, gifted. So what does it mean when every public word they say has to be continually monitored, scripted, and then greeted with contemp by Gurumayi? She never stops battering the swamis, making sure they work like dogs to sell her product, but continually demoralizing them with endless contemptuous criticism. Why do you think Nikhilananda left? Because GM and Afif never stopped torturing him for every word he said. I guess he wanted to stay true to some of his ideals, and to GM and Afif that meant insubordination -- he had to be suppressed. The best weapon they have is to chip away, relentlessly, at their servants' self-esteem, their core, central sense of self -- and all in the name of purification. They use this other word, totally inappopriately, for the self. They call it the ego. It's not the ego, it's the self, with all its ideals, values, talents and skills. This is what GM wants her disciples to rid themselves of, because it threatens her. You think OJ got away with murder - Afif and GM have been doing it for years. And then finally to have an earphone in your ear, telling you what to say. It means that Gurumayi and George have taken away your voice, your identity, and made you into their puppet. They usurp and appropriate for themselves what does not belong to them - the very voice and the identity of those who serve them. What could be more disempowering, more annihiliating, then to reduce someone to such complete submission that even what they say is completely controlled by someone else. This is the kind of murder of the soul that comprises the typical day in GM's life. Subj: Larry, earphones, SYDA's con Date: 96-03-11 08:00:34 EST From: Howie Sm Larry, You are right when you say (cited below) that everyone knew about Gurumayi/Afif feeding information via earphone to the stooge working the room in the SYDA courses. Of course. Doesn't everyone see that this observation makes my story about people believing in her "powers" and "omniscience" all the more alarming? Larry says, <<>> Dear AOL readers, SYDA's con doesn't work exactly like the phony televangelist healer con. This is obvious. The point is, the earphone is part of a con nonetheless: a mind control con. The point is, MANY people--regardless of whether they know about the earphone, or about the plastic surgery, or about specific instances of sadistic abuse--nevertheless still INSIST on swallowing the BIG ILLUSION, hook, line, and sinker. Props like the earphone, the stooges, the "bustings," are all part of how that BIG ILLUSION is constructed. The point is, SYDAites take any sensation, such as the "drama" of the earphone routine--no matter how lame--and use it to fuel their grandiose spiritual fantasies. SYDAites rationalize away all contradicting information. Isn't this brainwashed behavior alarming? People DO think she is "their divine channel," with powers such as "omniscience." This is true even for people who are well aware of the earphone rig, and who have heard of the myriad abuses. The courses, with their one-way mirrors and earphones and psychiatric profiling, are just one small component in a complex, sophisticated con--what grifters call a long con. And of course, Gurumayi's use of an earphone to feed confidential information to a stooge working the room is like a standard carny con. SYDA's earphone shtick is like a carny con in another way: in its transparent tackiness. Feeding information to a human ventriloquist's dummy while hiding behind a one-way mirror? Why doesn't she come out and do the course herself? Come on--give me a break! This is truly cheesy. (And anyway, what do Borsht Belt routines like the earphone gag have to do with "sadguruing"?) SYDA's earphone con is unlike a carny con in that the stakes are more than a couple of bucks. People in SYDA are staking much much more than marks in a carnival do. They are staking their sanity, their careers, the best years of their life. A con is a con is a con. People can be conned on many levels. And SYDA is working a long con. It is truly mind boggling to think of all the brainwashed plants roaming society at large who are working as shills in the SYDA con. (Remember the Moonies?) Walking testimonial spouters. Roaming critic discrediters. We see plenty of SYDA shills on this AOL board, for example. Subj: Smart SYDAites play dumb Date: 96-03-11 08:21:40 EST From: Howie Sm Dissent says, <<>> Would everyone please say more about the anti-creativity of SYDA's thought-system? SYDA ashrams always struck me as absolutely anti-creative. There is a lot of peer pressure applied, and an unmistakable disapproving of individualized expressive modes. Love of God can burst forth not just in approved bhakta displays, but in articulated thought, articulated creative expression. This is not supported in SYDA. In SYDA, anything articulated, individualized, is interpreted as COMPETING WITH THE GURU. AS THE BASTARD FRUIT OF IMPURE EGO. Creativity, which many of the swamis and staff are capable of, is in SYDAspeak a product of brain, mind, ego. The "right" to be articulate is reserved for the guru and her programmed parrots. (Not that she lives up to that charge, in my book--if she let her parrots just squawk naturally, the noise they would make would be better than the patter she teaches them.) Mushy and inarticulate expression is the approved SYDA dialect, for it conveys the proper level of subservience required of a "good" SYDA disciple. My guess is, smart people, like Durgananda, have to play dumb just to avoid making waves. And, from what I gather from Dissent's post, to avoid being abused at a higher than usual level. Subj: Re:dreams Date: 96-03-11 19:28:07 EST From: Yogi J Shridevi wrote: <<<<<>>>>> "The idea that the passage of the magical threshold is a transit into a sphere of rebirth is symbolized in the worldwide womb image of the belly of the whale. The hero, instead of conquering or conciliating the power of the threshold, is swallowed into the unknown, and would appear to have died... This popular motif gives emphasis to the lesson that the passage of the thres- hold is a form of self-annihilation. But here, instead of passing outward, beyond the confines of the visable world, the hero goes inward, to be born again. That is why the approaches and entrances to temples are flanked and defended by colossal gargoyals: dragons, lions, devil-slayers with drawn swords, resentfuldwarfs, winged bulls. These are the threshold guardians to ward away all incapable of encountering the higher silences within" Joseph Campbel 1948 (on the "cutting edge" a half century ago) Thank you Shri for your wonderful posts, and all the others too! Crossing the threshold, (in this case, leaving SYDA) has been the most important single step in my sadhana yet. These boards have helped with the process. Let's all remember that no matter where you are on the ethics debate, we're all in the midst of an important process, it may not be easy but it is changing the courseof many lives. Thank you all. From the belly of the whale, Namaste, Jahnu Subj: Duhkha, 1 of 2 Date: 96-03-11 23:04:18 EST From: NaradaP Dear all, The biggest flaw in the rhetoric of the crusaders on these boards is the assumption that the world is a fair place to live in. One would have to have just popped up from under the cabbage leaf to assume that. Take Hitler for example. Unfortunately, the reason he is so infamous isn't because of all the Jews he is personally responsible for exterminating. The reason he is known as a bad guy was because he lost the war. The losers are always the bad guys as far as recorded history is concerned. As proof of what I say, there are many instances in history where others are equally responsible for as much or more blood shed, yet, because they were the winners, they are known as good guys. But I feel they are all at fault. The world is definitely not a fair place to life in. To think that people will all get up and leave somewhere where abuses occurred are ignorant or ignoring the lessons of history. The most popular religion in the world, the Christian Catholics are, no doubt, guilty of the most heinous crimes against humanity. You can start out listing their crimes at the burning of the library of Alexandria. Then there are the millions of innocent people they tortured by breaking and re-breaking bones into giving a 'confession' of their 'guilt' and then executed for heresy. Also exactly one thousand years ago from this year of 1996 was the start of the Holy Crusades where the Christians tried to exterminate the Arab race for the sake of liberating Christ's tomb from the Moslems, or so they say. They said so much blood was shed that the Crusader's horses were covered in it up to their chest. I read a book a couple of years ago whose theme was that the problems we are now having in the Middle East is a direct result of the Crusades. But because the Christians 'won', they were the good guys. The world is not a fair place to live in. Andrew Jackson, one of the presidents of the United States, is guilty of the same crime as Hitler. He, more then anybody else, is responsible for what happen to the American Indians. He didn't believe the red man and the white man could live side by side to he dedicated his life and used his presidency towards exterminating the American Indian race. He never kept any treaty he made. He is responsible for killing more Indians then Hitler killed Jews. If you don't believe me, read the book called "I Lost My Heart at Wounded Knee." The book is filled from cover to cover with anecdotes of heinous crimes against the American Indians. But since Andrew Jackson won, he is the good guy. If you want to see his face, just pull out a twenty dollar bill and there he is. In reality, he is no better then Hitler. The world is not a fair place to live in. Against woman, I feel the most oppressed women in the world are Moslem woman. Their oppression is so extreme that one can only understand it as an over reaction to the religions that proceeded the Moslem religion. In ancient Babylon, near modern Bagdad in Iraq, the goddess Ishtar was the presiding deity. There are many ancient statues of her, nude, and holding her breasts as if to offer nourishment to the world. (the goddess pose) At that time it was the goddesses who were exalted. Knowing that, one can understand why Moslem women are so extremely oppressed. They can not be seen so their beauty is taken away, they are not allowed to be educated, and because of circumcision, which mothers do to their own daughters, women are not even allowed to feel. Moslem governments are trying to stop this revolting practice of circumcising women but it is so ingrained in Moslem society that it is still very popular. And many of these innocent women's physical scars never heal, and emotionally, they will never be whole. The world is not a fair place to live. Continue, Subj: Duhkha, 2 of 3 Date: 96-03-11 23:07:02 EST From: NaradaP About the Jews again, the Jews spend a lot of time crying about what Hitler did to them but if you look in the Bible, it tells of all the cites where the Jews put every man, woman, and child to the sword as they took possession of the Promise Land for themselves. But because the Jews won, they were considered the good guys. Myself, I have a difficult time justify killing. But I do know the world is not a fair place to life in. We are all very lucky to be living in the United States. Look how much freedom we have. But we are also the most heavily armed country in the world. Number one I believe. So it isn't because the world is a fair place to live that we have our freedom, it's because we have the resources to repeal invaders. Our freedom wouldn't last very long if we put our weapons away. After all, we are the envy of the world. One would have to have been born yesterday to be ignorant of the ways of the world. Or living a very sheltered life. The whole world is full of suffering. Duhkha is the word the Buddhist used to express this concept of suffering and is the first Noble truth. It is because of Duhkha that salvation is sought for. It is interesting how many ways people react to Duhkha. Some recoil from it by trying to regress into infantilism where they can again be totally depend on others to care for and protect them and so they seek out a Mother or Father figure to give up their freedom to. Others become cold and full of hate. Others become predators themselves. Then there are others, like Buddha, who seek out and uproot once and for all the cause of Duhkha. Buddha sees the world as Duhkha but overcomes it not by changing the world, but by changing himself. By changing himself into an enlightened being full of compassion for all those still entangled with the world. One can never find happiness with worldly things. All worldly things are like chaff in the wind of time. Only the Soul is permanent. We are all responsible for our own salvation leading to happiness. I feel relationships are important not for happiness sake, but for the sake of enriching our lives. Nobody has a monopoly on suffering. But thanks to the existence of the Soul, there is a means to walk through the gamut of dualistic existence and emerge unscathed. To live in the world but not of the world. Like the symbol of the Lotus flower. By being grounded in the Soul one can see all, both good and evil with an serene frame of mind. I know the world as Duhkha, But I don't stick my head in the sand and ignore the suffering in others. I do make my living in astrology helping people out of difficult situations. I feel we all can do our little part to help ease the pain. I do my part through astrology, those who felt themselves taken advantage of try to help other people from being taken advantage of in similar ways. For example, in my life, I grew up with parents (especially my mother) who were very extremely manipulative. I had to be on guard all the time least I give them a handle to get to me by. I could never talk to my parents about any weakness I ever had. So I learned at a very early age how to resolve my own problems without any help from anybody else. That was why I posted those post about how to prevent being manipulated. Basically, the more responsibility and independence one has in and over their own life, the harder it is for anybody to make one do anything one doesn't want to do. But you know what, all the negativity I had to resolve on my own with out any help from anyone was what put my in contact with my Inner Guru. I can't imagine my Inner Guru not being there. Every cloud has a silver lining. My main objection to the crusaders here are not what they say, but how they are saying it. That was why I wrote that post where I said, <<>> continue.. Subj: Duhkha, 3 of 3 Date: 96-03-11 23:08:37 EST From: NaradaP I'm glad it mellowed out. Nobody want to be a hate monger. I agree with what Dissent says here for I have said it my self in my own way. >>SYDA Yoga is iatrogenic - it causes the diseases of alienation and separation it claims to cure.<< But all those who are polarizing into us and them camps are guilty of the exact same thing. I don't belong to either camp. And I am not a fence sitter either. The path is my agenda as I said before. But the path I walk is the path giving by Shiva himself in the Shiva Purana. Not the path of SYDA. If nobody wants to walk with me, fine, I'll walk alone. I usually do. I assume we are all spiritual people here or we wouldn't be involved with these boards. I try very hard not to personally attack anyone. My having a Libra Sun in conjunction with an exact Saturn/Neptune conjunction with a First House Scorpio Venus and Jupiter conjuncting my Seventh House makes it difficult for me to be mean to anyone. (my birthday for any lurking astrologers out there is 10/20/52 with 20 degrees Scorpio rising.) I also have a Moon/Mercury/Ascendant conjunction opposite Jupiter and squared by Pluto in the Ninth House. This post kind of grew in the telling. I was wondering if I should even post it. But I enjoyed myself so... Namaste Subj: Re:Duhkha Date: 96-03-12 02:41:10 EST From: JamesN26 Narada, I loved your post. Let me share an experience I had which kind of speaks to the same issue. I was in New York, in conversation with Dr. Albert Ellis, a well-known cognitive psychologist. Now Ellis is very anti-spiritual, and professes with zeal an absense of a higher power. His trip is that we can learn to be free from the effects of our circumstances by shifting our posture, or our viewpoint, of them. Hence, the essence of cognitive psychology, where one's cognitions of events are challenged in the process of changing our perceptual relationship to our circumstances. Anyway, at one point in our conversation, all of which was fairly fascinating, we started talking about life-stance. He said "There's one thing that people can learn, and if they do, it will absolutely change their life." ME:"Yeah?" "And if they learn it, and apply it to business, or their relationships, or their jobs, they will learn the most important lesson there is to learn." (He didn't mention yoga, but he probably would have had he not been an atheist) ME:"So what's the lesson?" Ellis:"TOUGH SHIT! That's the lesson. And if you ever think that this is a perfect world, just read the NEW YORK TIMES for a few days. And when you can except the world as it is, THEN you can begin to learn to be happy. Somehow, I don't think Ellis would have ended up a disgruntled ex-devotee. -Jim Subj: A wonderful lady I know Date: 96-03-12 08:54:31 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, I know a remarkable lady (mid 30s) who had a nervous breakdown before entering SYDA triggered by a failed relationship. She was (but no longer is) very artistic and enterprising. She threw herself into seva, the local SYDA community, and puja, in that overboard way that most of us here know about. She smiled a lot during seva in an intense way, though she sometimes cried during meditations and chants in a pitiful way. After a few years of SYDA involvement, she had another psychiatric episode, and was missing from seva activities for a while. She returned to her intense seva duties, ever-smiling. She never spoke to anyone of her problems, but just stayed to a kind of "party line" way of speaking. She has seva "friendships" with real party liners--the artificial, strong types--you know what I mean? To make a long story short--and leaving out many, many details, here's where I'm going with this. I am worried in my gut that with SYDA's "guidance" and "community" she is making herself really crazy, and may end up suicidal. Does this mean anything to anyone? Subj: Re:Embarrassing, isn't it? Date: 96-03-12 13:06:35 EST From: CRITIC CHC "Nonetheless, I sincerely feel that my free-wheeling approach to this board is not only the most appropriate rhetorical stance to take--it is the most psychologically healthy for all parties." You sound like a cult yourself. Do you really believe yourself? Amazing. Subj: Re:A wonderful lady I know Date: 96-03-12 13:11:18 EST From: Larryom >>I am worried in my gut that with SYDA's "guidance" and "community" she is making herself really crazy, and may end up suicidal. Does this mean anything to anyone?<< Dear Howie: I'm going to take a risk and discuss this but please don't think I'm claiming any expertise or debating anything. Howie, It means a lot but what she reacts to and how she reacts to it are still aspects of her condition, rather than SYDA's. You said yourself that she was having problems before SYDA involvement as well as after. I don't know about any actual "guidance" but a feeling of community in seva may or may not do her _some_ good. I am not speaking without personal experience here either. I have been and have known quite a few people over the years who have been "pscyhotic" at various point in their lives. I know one woman I worry about who was banned from the ashram for manic behavior--she tends to think she's enlightened sometimes too. I have also known comfort from talking with the likes of Indirananda and a few others within "the community." I worry about people like the woman you mention but I don't know what would be worse for her at this point--being part of the "party line" or reading some of the posts on this forum from angry folks like you and Dissent! Either way could be a bad scene. I am very sympathetic to your all-too-real dilemma but it is evidence that there are no simple solutions. When I felt really bad sometimes, working alongside others and chanting and feeling I was part of a community got me through some rough spots. Please don't react with hasty anger to this post. I understand the kind of situation you describe. The person in question, more than anything else, I think, needs to know that she has someone she can trust who accepts her. This could be a friend or a therapist, in SY or outside it. I will pray for you and your friend, for what its worth, that she come to a peaceful understanding that allows her to find freedom and happiness--in whatever context those options are most real for HER. I wish the same for everybody, more or less. I have always felt that SY didn't deal with these kinds of problems sufficiently but neither does the rest of the world either. Kripalu dealt with real mental health more than any other path I am aware of.... There are some others, I guess, but where she is at is part of her individual life's path. Even if I blamed SYDA completely for the condition she's now in, what good would it do? With great respect, Larry Subj: Re:To Solo on Shame Date: 96-03-12 13:13:26 EST From: CRITIC CHC "The organization and its leaders that has become unspeakably wealthy while systematically subjecting young girls to sexual abuse, others to emotional abuse, and defrauding so many others of so much time, energy and money? That stuff belongs in the sewer and can't go down the drain fast enough for me. " What is unspeakably wealthy? Can you say more? Is the "systematic" abuse occuring today? By whom and to whom? What is "defrauding others"? These vague statements are what keep people at bay. You don't want people to believe SYDA, or Gurumayi, and yet you expect people to believe you? It doesn' make sense. Subj: Protesting the protest Date: 96-03-12 14:40:03 EST From: Dissent222 To those, like Narada, James and whoever else, who demand more facts, names, less vagueness, etc: Please download the 2 open letters, the Syda critical bibliography, and the Syda AOL Discussion from 8/95, all here on the Hinduism File Library, and read them all thoroughly if you have not already. If you still do not like how people characterize the organization, and you don't believe what is said or disagree, then that's your right. It does NOT mean, thought, that I am obligated to reveal myself by giving more detail than I have about my personal experiences. I cannot do that because of SYDA's stated intention (staff darshan, Inese Kaufman) of suing the pants off of anyone who tries to criticize them. In my view, for what it is worth, this is not a matter of people not having enough information. It is a matter of what people do and do not want to believe, based on the enormous investment of faith, time, money, love, dedication, etc. that they have made to SYDA. I knew about sexual abuse, money abuse, and power abuse for more than 10 years and DID NOT WANT TO CALL IT THAT OR KNOW THAT I KNEW ABOUT IT. So I don't think you need more facts and less "vague, general" statements. It's all there, plenty of it, if you are willing to put 2 and 2 together and come out with 4. If you want to ignore all the testimonials from people here and consider them meaningless or interpret them as not unfavorable to SYDA, that's fine. You're entitled. Finally, Narada, why can't all those Jews whining about Hitler just get over it and accept their karma, is that what point you are trying to make? I consider these statements to be anti-Semitic, repulsive, and grossly insensitive to those whose mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles and cousins were murdered by the Nazis, so relatively recently in history. I'm not surprised you find SYDA a comfortable environment for you to develop your muddled, illogical and fascistic viewpoint. Subj: Re:Protesting the protest Date: 96-03-12 16:30:28 EST From: Larryom Dissent, you had the gall to say: >>Finally, Narada, why can't all those Jews whining about Hitler just get over it and accept their karma, is that what point you are trying to make? I consider these statements to be anti-Semitic, repulsive, and grossly insensitive to those whose mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles and cousins were murdered by the Nazis, so relatively recently in history. I'm not surprised you find SYDA a comfortable environment for you to develop your muddled, illogical and fascistic viewpoint<< All I could do when I read the above was to exclaim out loud, "Oh! He's so stupid!!!" Forgive me, but I was deeply offended as both a yogi and a Jew that you could twist Narada's well-intentioned post into your cynical, slanted, and negativistic take on life in general. After reading the above I am really seeing RED--and I think you know that I don't anger easily! Narada very CLEARLY said that he did NOT find SYDA a "comfortable environment," and to make these horrendous accusations against him is really showing _your_ true colors more than anyone elses! You have taken it upon yourself to blame SYDA for all the ills in your life and now you go on to berate others in the name of being anti-SYDA! You have gone too far in my opinion with this last bit of vicious rhetoric. Please stop comparing people to Nazis, or to Nazi-sympathizers, or any such thing. That, I find far more anti-semitic and degrading of well-meaning humans who are trying to communicate their own positive adaptations to life. All you seem to want to do is scapegoat--and I will not be a party to that! Whatever happened to you during (& after) those 10 years you seem so invested in calling "wasted" years of your life must hold some valuable lessons to be mined--if only you could look at the situation more neutrally. Maybe you can't forgive SYDA because you haven't forgiven yourself for something; I don't know. But It is not a question of SYDA ideology. That may be flawed, as far as it goes, but life within the ashram is still part of the world, and the laws of the universe don't change radically when you go through those doors to the point that any bad events you suffered then become somebody elses responsibility and none of your own. I have yet to hear a kind word from you in a general way. You always seem so invested in making others look bad. I really wish that you could wake up to the joy inside yourself. I don't care what path you do it on. But stop being like a pitt bull and attacking and barking. It is really getting tiresome. I will probably regret saying some of this later but I just wanted you to see the rise you got out of me. There are some things I simply have a hard time tolerating--and my family lost relatives in the Holocaust too. There was nothing wrong with Narada's speculations about how winners and losers of wars are viewed in a historical context. Nothing he said was insulting to Jews in general or to any individuals. I wish I could say the same for you. Subj: Dissent, I'm sorry I flamed Date: 96-03-12 18:47:24 EST From: Larryom I just want to apologize to Dissent 222 for my near-flaming him as I did regarding the Nazi-ism issue as discussed by Nararda. While I don't withdraw my beliefs, I realize that I made what was for me an out-of-character personal attack on an individual because his views on a particular topic "pushed my buttons." I'm still learning, Dissent, and I'm sorry I got so carried away. What I said was not in the spirit that I try to live from or communicate from. Namaste, Larry/Sitaram Subj: a tedious post - be forewarned Date: 96-03-12 22:29:39 EST From: Shridevi narada, (and whoever else is reading) can i have a word or two with you? hi. i'm one of the people you referred to in your posts. i'm a woman. i make my living helping people die better. i used to be involved in siddha yoga. i'm here on this board because i believe it is a good idea to be able to talk freely about things that matter to myself and to others in my community. for being "independent" you seem to have a strong "need" to get "involved" with a group of people talking about their experience of an organization with which you have no real connection. (is that right?) sorry for the pathologizing. it can be really insensitive to just deconstruct someone without considering their humanity, huh. well, that's pretty much how i felt when i read your dukha post. this is not a rhetorical game here. this is not about whose punditry wins. this is about people's lives; it is about compassion; it is about lessening the unnecessary suffering in the world. your discursive style, as i understand it, is not unique. examples of it have been critiqued over and over by intelligent, passionate, mature individuals who are engaged with the world, care about the world. you see, your approach to things may be "rational" and appear to be logical but logic is not some great lingum that we all bow down to. hindu culture, patriarchal and sexist as it is, is not some sort of icon that we worship but can never understand. perhaps you don't get the connection i am trying to make. as i see it, your list implies a certain distance from suffering which seems out of balance. yes, it is true that we cannot fix everything. and i, for one, am not the least bit "ignorant" or naive about this world here. however, in your post this distance is imblanced - a willingness to accept the world as it is in order to justify not doing anything to help. it is all mind and no heart. numb. I can't believe I'm saying all this Subj: why am i posting this???? Date: 96-03-12 22:30:56 EST From: Shridevi check out the buddhists for example of balance. they have these two qualities - emptiness and skillful means. emptiness is just that, it is the realization that samsara and nirvana are one - no striving to be 'spiritual', no striving to be 'nice', no striving to be 'rational', not striving for 'independence', no striving for pleasure . . . emptiness. it is the 'trancendental' part, if you wish. and then there is skillful means. skillful means is the answer to the question - "so what do I DO if all this is empty?" and skillful means is compassion. compassion: suffering with. i am not suggesting that i have mastered these qualities or am an embodiment of them or anything. of course, i am here doing my human thing like everybody else. (and of course, i'm not going to tell anybody that i'm some spiritual person in order to be taken seriously.) on the siddha yoga path, to bring up siddha yoga here a minute, baba used to say you need both love and discrimination. lets start with discrimination: discrimination means that all of the elegant and/or totalizing theories in our head ("understandings") have to be modulated in the context of practical, objective reality. we all know that one spiritual platitude holds may work in one context and not in another, right? meaning: it MATTERS that SYDA foundation is a corrupt, abusive organization because then it MATTERS to give people the opportunity to NOT experience UNNECESSARY SUFFERING. love next. on this board often seems to be reduced to some sort of white middleclass politeness - totally out of context of the abovementioned consideration of what MATTERS. one more time: in the siddha yoga that people on this board were or are into (i don't know how much you are familiar with it) there are these two main philosophical strains. there is the vedantic 'neti neti' thing. and then there is the kashmir shaivistic 'shivo'ham shivo'ham' thing. there is a reason for that. the reason is that the friction that these two philosophies create when they rub up against each other IN ACTUAL PRACTICE reveals contradictions which must be navigated with the heart. if we are numb, our practice will freeze, our hearts will stop flowing. our lives, and the lives of the people around us will get clogged. and there will just be more suffering. Subj: wait, there IS more . . . Date: 96-03-12 22:31:45 EST From: Shridevi when i argued with larry a while back, i promised to quote him some things about socially engaged spirituality. (i'm sure larry was really grateful that i was willing to pontificate to him - but here goes) simple and beautiful. Thich Nhat Hanh. "Causing harm to other human beings brings harm to ourselves. Accumulating wealth and owning excessive portions of the world's natural resources deprives fellow human beings of the chance to live. Participating in oppressive and unjust social systems creates and deepens the gap between rich and power, 'powerful' and 'powerless' and aggravates the situation of social injustice. Yes, while tolerating excess, injustice and war, we usually are completely unaware that the human race suffers as a family. While the rest of the human family suffers and starves, enjoying false security and wealth can only be seen as a sign of insanity." This is a fairly radical thing, no? Understandable why we might want to dismiss it. Pretty threatening to the powers that be. Pretty threatening to our comfort zone. But heart opening. "A tree reveals itself to an artist when he or she can establish a certain relationship with the tree. If a human is not human enough, he may look at his fellow humans and not see them; he may look at a tree and not see it. Many of us cannot see things because we are not wholly ourselves. Wholly ourselves, we can see how one person by his or her way of living can demonstrate that live is possible, that a future for the world is possible. The question, "Is a human future possible?" is meaningless without seeing the millions of our fellow humans who suffer, live and die around us. Once we have really seen them, we can see ourselves, and we can see the nature of things." OK - that's it.Subj: Re:Love for Loves Sake Date: 96-03-12 22:40:23 EST From: Shridevi I am really beginning to get to the point with this board where I remember why I left siddha yoga. All the puerile discourse of the ashram was what made me finally say - "I can't take it anymore! I'm having a hard time finding kindness in myself in relationship to this wankly stuff. My own included. Get me outta here!!!!!!!!!!!!" (It's not that people can't be herdlike fools if they want to but it drives ME crazy.) It seems that the supporters now have their forum for kindness and support. I would like to have a place for "recover-ers" to support each other, hang out, tell stories and be human with out having to trip over clunky attacks. There is a lot of joy in my life. I wanna share it with you guys. I wanna show you the poem I wrote . . . etc. etc. but i don't think i wanna do it here. : P shree wavy devi Subj: one more thing Date: 96-03-12 22:46:27 EST From: Shridevi Speaking as an all but licensed ex-psychotherapist: SYDA can very easily make a psychopathology worse. Trying to navigate the contradictions inherent in the culture of Siddha Yoga could blow the circuits of a sensitive, already delicate and inclined to split, individual. If this person were my friend, I would be very careful and supportive and suggest that she get a good therapist WHO IS NOT IN SIDDHA YOGA. Being able to navigate the contradictions in Siddha Yoga and appear to be emotionally stable is NOT NECESSARILY A SIGN OF HEALTH. shree Subj: Re:Protesting the protest Date: 96-03-12 23:11:18 EST From: NaradaP Dear Dissent, You say, >>To those, like Narada, James and whoever else, who demand more facts, names, less vagueness, etc:<< I say, I never asked for any additional information on any of these things. We may forget who wrote what, but we never forget what we wrote, at least I don't. You can't point to any post of mine asking for such things. Since it really doesn't matter to me one way or the other, it flunked the pragmatic test of being worth while enough to put much interest in. One has to prioritize ones attention some how, right? You say, >>Finally, Narada, why can't all those Jews whining about Hitler just get over it and accept their karma, is that what point you are trying to make?<< I say, that was not the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make, which I tried to accent by repeating so many times, was that the world is not a fair place to live in so beware, proceed by all means but beware. You had to learn it the hard way didn't you? What did it cost, lets see, you did mention she got ten years wages so it must of cost at least 250,000 dollars, right. Ouch, I bet that stung. Your living proof that, yes, it does happen. You then said, >>I consider these statements to be anti-Semitic, repulsive, and grossly insensitive to those whose mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles and cousins were murdered by the Nazis, so relatively recently in history.<< There was nothing anti-Semitic about I said, I was only stating an observation. You can't point to any opinion I made about the Jews. An observation exists whether we want it to or not, it's the 'given' in the scientific method. An opinion is a personal hypotheses about the observation, which we then test somehow, and so on. But I do feel a lot of compassion for what the Jewish people went through. Nobody should have to go through all that. I guarantee you Dissent, I have much more compassion for what happen to the Jews then you getting your feelings hurt by SYDA. Then surprisingly you said, >>I'm not surprised you find SYDA a comfortable environment for you to develop your muddled, illogical and fascistic viewpoint.<< I never said I was a SYDAite. I rember saying just a short time age that I never set foot on SYDA grounds. I wouldn't recognize Gurumayi if she fell on me. You remember the one, I think it was the one you replied to by calling me a monster and a sociopath. And, from all you have said here and other posts as proof, I feel confirmed in my opinion that your are projecting your self with your, >>your muddled, illogical and fascistic viewpoint.<< line you just mentioned above. Have a nice day. Narada Subj: Re:Protesting the protest Date: 96-03-12 23:21:41 EST From: PattyV1953 Am I the only one to find it interesting - at the very least - that a person who had "never set foot" on SYDA property and would not recognize Gurumayi if he fell over her would be involved in the discussions here? Narada, what draws you into these discussions? Quizzically yours, Satya Subj: Howie's friend, Shri's Ans. Date: 96-03-12 23:51:56 EST From: PattyV1953 Shridevi, I agree with you regarding this issue. A young woman I know, who has since been in and out of the local psych center for treatment of schizophrenia, spent the summer of 1984 hanging out around the ashram, living off the grounds in a tent and coming to do seva. We would see her washing the same windows in the lower lobby every day. Very quiet - I mean, affect almost nonexistent and nearly unresponsive to questions; noticeable weight loss; hygiene obviously deteriorated if you got close enough. Perhaps hers was not the most obvious case to someone who did not know her, but we who did were alarmed. I was the last one from our community there at the end of that summer and tried to convince her to come home with me. When she refused (claiming to have a job in the SF community, which I knew was untrue), I went to the ashram management to try to convince them that this person was very ill - completely out of touch with reality, not stoned on shakti - and enlist their help. They were skeptical of my motives and take on the situation, and I can appreciate that since I am not a mental health professional. But they finally told her that she must leave the ashram and recommended to her that she accept my ride. (I believe they would have somehow put her in touch with local mental health authorities in the alternative, once they really interviewed her, and that she may have ended up hospitalized in Sullivan County, away from her family in Buffalo. The ashram does not assume responsibility for individuals' health care, and they may have not had any way of contacting her family since she was not even registered at the ashram and had no ID.) After much cajoling, I finally got her to come home with me, praying nothing would happen and driving 80 miles an hour with the windows to my little Datsun open to air the smell of her pile of belongings. (Perhaps I was foolish to take this chance, but it worked out okay. I guess my instincts were correct.) She was silent and almost motionless the whole ride home (300 miles in less than 4.5 hours - I was *flying*), staring down at the same Correspondence Course lesson page the entire time. The ashram is definitely not a place for people who suffer from serious mental illness, and no one should expect a stay at the ashram to be an alternative to treatment. I would not encourage anyone to stay, or return, in a deteriorated mental state. Satya Subj: Protesting the protest of the Date: 96-03-12 23:58:51 EST From: Shridevi Narada - you say you have compassion. OK. I believe you. I retract my attack upon your lack of balance and humanity. But where DO your criticisms come from? What BOTHERS you that people are being human (angry, happy, sad, passionate etc.) on this board in the context of sharing their experiences?? What is your PROBLEM with that? WHY do you need to find some or another way to devalue or dismiss this event? I got out of SY as soon as I started becoming an adult, so your comments about being naive or immature don't work on me. I didn't leave because someone was a jerk in Siddha Yoga. Amazing but true. I was an astute enough young woman to recognize the male trip here there and everywhere as you talk about. But that does not mean that I don't feel really strongly about an ongoing abuse of that trip at the expense of young women still!!!! And I had a longing for many years to have a place where I could get a lot of the twisted mind warping stuff off my chest. Like, say to people - did you see that pink elephant to? am i not crazy? what is so WRONG with that? Does it have to be the most ultimate, perfect pseudo-philosophical discourse to be OK WITH YOU? Why don't you hang out somewhere else? Subj: Re:Protesting the protest of Date: 96-03-13 02:08:13 EST From: JamesN26 Shreedevi, I really like you. You, like others who have shared personal experiences, have forced me to ask hard questions about my relationship with Siddha Yoga, and for this I am really grateful. It bothers me, however, that you feel people who don't support your view of yourself relative to Siddha Yoga should be banished to another folder. As I recall, you have yourself expressed strong sensitivities to fascism, which in your world includes both Siddha Yoga and the entire San Francisco police department. Strange as it may seem, I find the opposing viewpoints on this forum to be stimulating and fascinating. I'm also trying to learn to see people, even people I disagree with, as complex combinations of an infinite number of variables, instead of fascists, stooges, or perpetrators, etc. I find this posture really liberating. THEN I can actually DO something about whatever it is I am unhappy with. What I really admire about you is that you are willing to stick your neck out. I only hope you are aware that by doing so, it may get run over from time to time. Your friend, Jim Subj: Re:Protesting the protest of Date: 96-03-13 03:13:25 EST From: Dissent222 Shridevi - thanks for all your intelligent and sensible posts. They are a breath of fresh air as I wade through the muck of other posts that seem to be written by people who aren't really into SYDA, who don't really know anything about it, and whose thoughts I find irrelevant, muddled, and bizarre. I, too, would like to stop being harrassed by these people. They have a supporters folder, but it's too boring over there, and as Howie predicted, they hang out here, filling up the space with meaningless babble. I can barely read these posts and skip most of them, actually. I haven't read more than the first few words of any of the posts that attack my statement about Narada's anti-Semitic remark. My statement on that stands - it is sick to talk about "Jews still crying about Hitler" - that is simply a hateful statement. What point do these anti-dissenters wish to make? That whatever goes on in SYDA doesn't matter, people should stop saying anything about it, they shouldn't have any unspiritual, unpleasant feelings about it? How dare they demand anything of me, or anyone else who has seen and experienced cruelty, deception and abuse in SYDA? I am clear that I owe you people - Larry, Narada, whoever - absolutely nothing. I'm just on here telling the truth and telling the secrets. I do it for the sake of those whom it has helped, and I KNOW IT HAS HELPED MANY, MANY PEOPLE to stop feeling crazy about SYDA and to know the truth about it. In most cases, it is the truth that people have already known subliminally. Hearing it spoken out loud, as Howie has done for longer than me, has helped many many people regain their lives, hearts and minds, from the syda yoga prison they found themselves in. I started posting here because during my 10 + years in SYDA, I saw Gurumayi make a mockery of my values about justice, honesty, and respect for human dignity. I came to know that what fueled syda was the lust and greed of 2 people - George Afif and Gurumayi. Young girls had to be sacrificed to Afif to keep things running. GM had to be furnished with the world's most expensive jewels (check out the diamond pins at her neck) to keep things running. No amount of money was enough to cater to their tastes in clothes, food and objects. Both of them needed to control, provoke, insult, deceive, batter and crush the people who slaved for them, to keep things running. That's the syda I know. Lots of people don't ever see it at all. But you know what? Many, many DO see it - out of the corner of their eye, in the back of their mind. But they are told to shut up their doubts, repeat the mantra, and live in the bliss of ignorance (which in syda is called "knowledge"). Many of us obeyed these commands to be blind for many many years, and we even allowed ourselves to be degraded and exploited, thinking it was for a higher cause. The higher cause for me turned out to be regaining my own voice, mind and heart; regaining the ability to know and speak the truth; and using that ability in whatever way I can. Sure, I get exhausted from repeating the same thing over and over. I get told I don't have a life, I'm full of hate, I'm this and I'm that. It's fascinating that these people who attack me on this board and make the biggest noise are the people who have the least to do with syda. Those that are in syda who lurk here stay quiet, because they know, many of them, that what I and others here have said is true. I'll never forget the prominent, wealthy woman devotee who said to me: "I have known about Baba's sexual abuse of young women, and Gurumayi's affair with George, and her harassment of her brother, for many, many years - and I've just found a way to accept it." I haven't found a way to accept it and I hope to God I never will. Why should I just drop it and let it alone? I'm not ready. This is a piece of life that I have lived, I know something about it, and I'm not willing to brush it away and turn my back on it yet. Subj: Re:Protesting the protest of Date: 96-03-13 08:26:08 EST From: Howie Sm Patronizing JamesN26 says, <<>> HowieSm, after talking at length into the big white porcelain telephone, says, <<>> (Scotty, beam me up--or even into deep space, what the hey . . .) Subj: Re:Howie's friend, Shri's Ans. Date: 96-03-13 08:31:01 EST From: Howie Sm Everyone who responded, Thanks, you've all given good advice. I should talk to my friend, and try to help her find someone she can speak to openly: a therapist not in Siddha Yoga. Subj: SYDAites' feel-good ethics Date: 96-03-13 09:19:32 EST From: Howie Sm Dear Dissent, Why do SYDAites become finger-wagging lobots when you point out the obvious: that worshipping a "perfect being" (? !) with a marketing staff should perhaps be moved to a lower position on the "TO DO" list? Your profound insight about SYDAites' investment of time, emotion, and energy goes a long way to revealing what is behind the rationalization and denial of SYDAites. In this message, I add one thing about SYDAITES' FEEL-GOOD ETHICS. It doesn't "feel good" to hear about SYDA's atrocities and abuses of power. THEREFORE, according to some zombies online, learning an unpleasant truth must be "bad" because it doesn't make people "feel good." THEREFORE whoever takes the effort to warn others of this unpleasant truth must be "haters." (Zombie-logic, Q.E.D.) According to zombie-logic, the following is a hate-filled message: "HEY YOU, don't step in that bear trap." The SYDA apologists' "feel good" standard for cult ethics is nothing new: remember Charles Manson? But there's nothing wrong with feeling good when it doesn't hurt others, and when it is not dependent on a tissue of lies. Feeling free feels good, and is what you and others have been talking about. By the way Dissent, no need to recheck your sanity meter: some of what's online here is cuckoo. Can you imagine how a responsible reporter would react to what some people are trying to pass off as "points of view" around here? Subj: Re:Duhkha Duhkha Duhkha Date: 96-03-13 10:35:32 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Regarding his antisemitic post, NaradaP can plead innocent by reason of illiteracy. You want proof? Just look at the analogy he uses. NaradaP's analogy works like this: (DISCLAIMER--THE FOLLOWING DOES NOT REPRESENT MY VIEWS WHATSOEVER BUT IS USED TO ILLUSTRATE NARADAP'S ANALOGY; DO NOT REPOST WITHOUT THIS DISCLAIMER) Jews (who, through analogy, represent SYDA critics and victims of SYDA atrocities) <<>> Hitler (who represents Gurumayi and SYDA apologists), when they should instead realize that they, the Jews (SYDA critics), aren't perfect, and the world (the "place" that houses corrupt SYDA) isn't a perfect place. (DISCLAIMER--THE PRECEDING PARAGRAPH DOES NOT REPRESENT MY VIEWS WHATSOEVER; DO NOT REPOST WITHOUT THIS DISCLAIMER) NaradaP's analogy is, at bottom: Jews = critics and victims of SYDA atrocities. Hitler and the Holocaust = Gurumayi and SYDA apologists, and their actions. NEWSFLASH: WRONG ANALOGY, NARADA (given what you are trying to argue, that is; it actually kind of works for me). I've said it before and I'll say it again. Watching Narada play with words is like watching a chimpanzee play with guns. Subj: Jim Date: 96-03-13 10:36:16 EST From: Shridevi I am not wanting to eliminate the debate - i would just like to have other options as well. I am aware that you characterize me as an extremist because I feel strongly about the abuse of power. (by SYDA, SFPD or whomever.) so be it. i'm with Thich Nhat Hanh. "While the rest of the human family suffers and starves, our ability to tolerate injustice and enjoy our comfort zone can only be seen as a sign of insanity." The world is out of whack in a big way. My responses to it are big too. I know I'm going to get run over. I just wish it would be done with more elegance. Sarah Subj: doing things Date: 96-03-13 10:37:44 EST From: Shridevi One effect that this board has had, dissent, is that it is about to cause Sounds True Audio to remove Gurumayi's CD's and cassettes from its catalog. Business integrity - what a concept. shree Subj: peace from yoko Date: 96-03-13 14:06:37 EST From: Soloflyr11 Today's L.A. Times calender section, from an interview with Yoko Ono: "...But my feeling is that in the big picture there's only two things: war industry and peace industry. And in the war industry people are very much together. They're united in their thinking and they're quick in action. And the peace industry people are very selective and choosy people, so each one has their own opionion, and we can never get together , and we kind of criticize each other so much. Any my feeling is that we should just be more generous with each other and more loving and kind to each other. And let's hope the peace industry will survive." Subj: The Point Date: 96-03-13 20:56:57 EST From: PAN CYAN I've asked for comments a few times but without results.What about the obvious "spiritual power"manifested by GM and baba.I dont know of many other people who can take a thousand people into meditation. Gurdieff told a story in In search of the miraculous, explaining kundalini,about a magician who had sheep.He hypnotized them into thinking they were men,some even magicians! He said that the power of kundalini is in the west misunderstood, It is really the power of imagination.When the sheep were hypnotized, the magician did not have to worry about them runnnig away. he could use them,even eat them as he wished.Mantak Chia also gives warnings in his writings about magicians "stealing" energy from unwitting disciples to use for achieving their own immortality. COMMENTS??! Subj: Narada's eloquence Date: 96-03-13 21:12:09 EST From: MDSNMAN I don't mean to be rude here, Narada. But your latest admission that you have never been involved with SY and "wouldn't know GM if you fell over her" only confirms the obvious: You don't know what you're talking about. But thanks for the clarification. Subj: What's missing here Date: 96-03-13 22:20:54 EST From: MDSNMAN Has anyone else noticed that the discussion on these pages is largely between (1) knowledgeable former SYDA staffer/insider-dissenters and (2) SYDA supporters whose understanding of SYDA is pretty superficial (or missing entirely, like Narada). I'm relatively new to this forum, so I haven't read all of the Aol "back issues", but has there been any rebuttle at all from our former collegues here? If SYDA is monitoring these discussions, why not? Where's the tallented rebuttle from Mac, Ganapati, Inese, Dan N., Kshama, Peter, swami younameitananda, Uma, Vidura, Ed, Mahananda, Martin, Kathleen, Lalita, Sandra, Kunthi, Melynda, Vaishnavi, Sannand, Eugene, Gita, Marcel, Deanie, Bernie, Bernadette, Namdev, Swaroop, Chinmayi, Pat, Uttara, Indu, Kirby, Dan and Janet, Frank and Jeannie .......(ad nauseum).................., all of those folks who are so eloquent about the virtues of SY (but remain silent about its abuses). Where are they, our former collegues on road trips, mandalis; our roommates, our Amrit birthday buddies. Surely the record can be corrected here; the "rumors" of financial shennanigans, sexual abuse, corruption, put to rest for once and all. Surely they, our former friends, will stand up against the apostasy, the baseless allegations against the sad guru and beloved SYDA ( defender of lakes and streams and of little children). Or could it be that, as one former friend admitted to me (still in SY), they would rather not think about it (the truth). Too many years, too little left, too frightening to face the Real World, where there still is right and wrong. The frogs are indeed cooked. Subj: Re:What's missing here Date: 96-03-14 00:57:00 EST From: Soloflyr11 go mdsnmn, let it rip. wow did you say it this time. and all the names. ad nauseum is right. boy did you give me some barfing kriyas as i read down your list... here's some for you, how about william and chaya, tony and jayadevi, how about chandeshwari, or parna, or panna... (UmaB i believe has posted) but really mdsnmn, don't we really already know what they'd say. that's been my experience, no new thoughts, just the standard replies. or like you say <> here's how some people deal with it.... i remember very vividly talking with a certain manager that i liked very much. it was during the period i was leaving. when i told him of the things that bothered me, he admitted that i was right about my complaints. but he also shrugged his shoulders and communicated an apologetic gesture indicating that he "didn't get it" either, that he didn't know what to say, nor what to do. but he still believed in her. he knew full well of the myriad of abuses but still saw her as a divine channel and felt the dissonance was resolved by the fact that he just could not understand the ways of the guru. swahaaaaaa Subj: Re: The Point Date: 96-03-14 02:40:22 EST From: Dissent222 Pan Cyan - you ask about how do all these people have the spiritual experience. I think you answer your own question. Imagination. Or a more accurate word than imagination would be self-suggestion. Someone who has studied this for years finally explained this to me recently and it seems right on to me. Many of us have a great talent for self-suggestion. We enter an exotic, quiet place, with beautiful smells, lulling, hypnotic music, and scads of people all deeply yearning, loving, praying. In many cases, we've read about all sorts of spiritual experiences, or we've been hearing intoxicated sounding MC's and experience talks which describe something that sounds so delicious and we're hungry for it. Combine strong talent for self-suggestion with heavy duty influence techniques, and whether you are seeking or not, you're ready to have "the experience." Now there is within us all the familiar state of awakened, or altered consciousness - many of us experienced it before the guru, whether with drugs or other kinds of religious experience. Tons of others experience it without syda and its gurus. If you turn on the tv on sunday morning, there are endless really cheesy ministers who seem utterly false to many of us but who have huge masses of people sitting there having major ecstatic kriyas all over the place. The inner experience itself is not inauthentic. I believe that we have a sacred piece, all of us. It is utterly mysterious and wonderful and real. I think we find it a lot easier to disover and touch this when we give ourselves permission, when we are surrounded by others who serve to cheer us on. Unfortunately, when someone poses as an ideal and we are in a vulnerable, longing place, we can be easily manipulated. Basically, Gurus, ministers, rock stars, political heros -- they stimulate our longing for an ideal. We all wanted an ideal, all-powerful, all-loving parent - that's what all children want. And many of us were quite disappointed and disillusioned. How quickly we become children again when a really good actor posing as an ideal parental figure comes along, using skilled means of influence to play into our deepest needs. All the person who poses as the ideal parent needs is an authoritarian personality - the human longing to submit is quite powerful. The brilliant minds and talents of Germany who surrendered themselves to Hitler demonstrate this in recent history's most shocking example. Of all the "stars" we adore in this world, there are even a few who fight the inner battle to stay honest, and to refrain from exploiting others. But this is a tough battle to fight and many lose it, like Muktananda did. He became a slave to his irresistible compulsions around power, lust, wealth, while at the same time encouraging others to become enslaved to him. Howie, you have thought about this a lot yourself, yes? Your comments? Subj: Re:The Point 1/2 Date: 96-03-14 11:03:29 EST From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 2 Someone has asked an interesting question--"what is the nature of meditative experience, particularly in the context of gurus who act as catalysts?" ******************* Dear meditators who have had extraordinary experiences, Include me in your number. This subject strikes very close to home for me. Unless we put aside party line, a forward moving, mutually supportive, and inspiring dialogue on the nature of meditative experience cannot occur. There is a lot I would like to discuss regarding the subject of meditative experience. I have spent years looking into this subject, drawing on first-hand sources from around the globe, and doing much fieldwork. (Boy, what was I thinking?) Why should I put forth the hard-earned fruits of my research on these folders? One of the first obvious things that will come out if I start talking is: "it ain't what SYDA tells you." That isn't a very profound or even interesting point--but it is what the SYDA zombies will fixate on. Oh so predictably then, the dialogue will degenerate, the zombie howlings will begin, the SYDA-parrot exhibitionistic testimonials will commence. I see what happens to Dissent when he comes right out with what he knows about SYDA abuses--knowledge that is the hard-earned fruits of his background. Instead of a heartfelt "thank you," he becomes the target of a zombie feeding frenzy. Pointing out the corruption in SYDA is something that DOES DEFINITELY belong on the AOL folders, in a way that a subtle discussion of meditative experience does not--or more exactly, CAN NOT, because of the sad fact of sustained zombie presence. "DON'T BUY THE SYDA CON" is a (patently obvious) message that needs to be maintained in public forums. Spreading this message, even in a small way, serves as a counterbalance to SYDA's enormous propaganda machine. But a discussion of the nature of meditative experience in this folder? Many people here can't even grasp that 2 + 2 = 4. Many people here cling to the gobbledygook thought-system which they parrot as if it were a gospel that "explains" spiritual experience, a lame thought-system with as much potency as a security blanket soaked in bedwet. These sheep can't even generate an "unscripted" dialogue on their own turf, on the "SYDA supporters folder"! How far could a dialogue on spiritual experience proceed under these conditions? SEE PART 2 Subj: Re:The Point 2/2 Date: 96-03-14 11:04:31 EST From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 2 Dear meditators who have had extraordinary experiences, Nonetheless, I will respond to the inquiry about meditative experience by putting forth something that is very tiny. Try this on: You can see the light of a thousand suns and be thrilled with bliss (as described in the scriptures), come out of meditation, KICK YOUR DOG, and then see the light of a thousand suns in your next meditation. The point is: kriyas, bliss, visions, etc. have no direct connection to ethical maturation. A simple equation of strong meditative experiences with spiritual development is nonsense. (Zombies, this is your cue to begin vibrating your skulls with parrot-speak, narcissistic, exhibitionistic testimonials on behalf of your internalized SYDA brainwashing.) Subj: Night of the Living Dead III Date: 96-03-14 11:21:24 EST From: Howie Sm Two recent posts include this: <<>> HOLY MOSES! Reads like closing credits to "NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD III." Subj: A Swami Howie advert Date: 96-03-14 11:32:21 EST From: Howie Sm ********A SWAMI HOWIE ADVERT**************** The zombies charged that the SYDA critics pursue and harass the SYDA supporters. The recent history of the SYDA ethics folder shows that the reverse is the case. It is the supporters who chase after the critics. I imagine GoldenSeva and everyone else has noticed this. I thought I'd mention it because it was what: SWAMI HOWIE CORRECTLY PREDICTED! (Call for private readings, thank you.) P. S. MDSNMAN, you are awesome. Subj: Daddy has okayed Dissent! Date: 96-03-14 11:37:37 EST From: Howie Sm Daddy (LarryOm) says, <<>> Hey Dissent, it looks like you finally made the mark! Congratulations! (Dissent, can you believe this guy?) Subj: SYDA is a destructive cult Date: 96-03-14 19:25:04 EST From: Howie Sm Dear critics of SYDA, Like you, I recognize SYDA as a destructive cult (onlookers see Hinduism library for relevant materials). Some of you have done what you can to expose SYDA's corruption to AOL readers. I applaud your efforts. Keeping firmly in mind the TOS, I have treated this area like a chat area. Someone has pointed out that my rhetorically inflated, humorous, and otherwise freewheeling messages might be detracting from the points you are trying to make. There may be something to this, and so I apologize to you all: to Dissent, to MDSNMAN, and you other SYDA critics. I've done the best I can to provide some kind of support, fun, and defense to you all. I realize I may not always go about it in the best way. (But I do have fun! . . . ) There are not many who are taking the effort to let people know about destructive SYDA: it's a thankless job, but please keep doing it. I wish these SYDA-supporters (and freelance psychotics) would refrain from their attempts at discrediting you, love-bombing you, twisting your messages, and from otherwise doing that cult-member thing. But they won't, and so I accept the possibility that you all might just leave this area. That would be sad, for you are providing an important public service by detailing the insane secrets of corrupt SYDA. Those who speak out about SYDA's abuses have reason to be cautious. Lis Harris, the author of the November 14, 1994 New Yorker article on SYDA, on page 103 of her article speaks of her own experience of SYDA intimidiation--despite her connection to the prominent newspaper. Another who spoke out against SYDA was threatened with castration, another with having acid thrown in her face, and another (an ex-swami) was severely beaten. You will notice I have limited myself to mentioning incidents that are public knowledge and have been written up in magazine articles. That is because I am afraid to get specific online about my own experiences and eywitness testimony. So to you vocal SYDA critics, and ex-SYDA folk who are lurking, and to myself I say--good for us! We're doing what we can under the imperfect conditions, the best way we know how. Espresso afterwards. On me. Subj: SYDA is a destructive cult Date: 96-03-15 06:41:38 EST From: Howie Sm Onlookers: Please see AOL's Hinduism folder for information on SYDA. Dear cult members and defenders, I'm referring to those who discredit and patronize SYDA critics. Speaking as one of those critics, if you could drop your fixation on me and my rhetoric for a moment, you would have a better chance of noticing that you are involved in, or in some way aligning yourself with, a destructive cult. Here's a sample of what you are supporting online here. <<>> (From New Yorker, November 14, 1994) To those unfamiliar with SYDA's scandals, Gurumayi is the name of SYDA's leader (who is advertised and worshipped as a "perfect being"). The "panel" constitutes one of a series of SYDA presentations devoted to discrediting Gurumayi's brother, the former co-leader "perfect being" of SYDA, who fell into disfavor and was not only ousted, but subjected to a systematic campaign of SYDA harassment which is detailed elsewhere in the New Yorker article. Subj: SYDA's belief system Date: 96-03-15 07:16:47 EST From: Howie Sm (Please see AOL Hinduism library for background information about SYDA and its history of abuse) Dear AOL readers, In written form that is available to the public, SYDA maintains that: 1. Gurumayi Chidvilasananda is a perfect being. 2. Her word is "mantra" (sacred utterance) and therefore is equivalent to the word of God. 3. For maximum spiritual development, her words (which are "mantra") must be automatically obeyed at all times without question. 4. Spiritual benefits are to be gained from working in SYDA's labor colony. 5. That everyone, without exception, who takes one of their initiation programs (priced at $530, for what they term "package one") will without a doubt be given the experience of God's presence ("shaktipat"). Dear AOL readers, you can probably imagine the levels of corruption and abuse that can be grown in the soil of these basic principles. The items on SYDA in AOL's Hinduism Library provides additional leads for those interested in learning more about the inside story of SYDA. Subj: Tactics of SYDA cult defenders Date: 96-03-15 07:18:56 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, The SYDA supporters were given a folder that excludes SYDA critics. Notice that it has little activity. Instead, the SYDA supporters flock to the folder where the SYDA critics post. Why? One reason is: Cult defenders feel the need to function as agents--freelance representatives--of the cult that has brainwashed them. (Remember the Moonies and Scientology?) Witness here that cult defenders gravitate towards critics, while at the same time claiming they are "tired of hearing" the critics' voices. Yet the cult defenders' sustained presence near the critics suggests that they feel some kind of need to stay near the SYDA critics. In some cases, it appears that some cult defenders have formed a personal attachment with, and even vendettas against, specific SYDA critics. Taken all together, the sustained cult defender presence on the SYDA ethics folder aims to divert attention from a central issue: that SYDA is a destructive cult. Please see AOL's Hinduism library for information on SYDA. Subj: Narada, Head of the Class Date: 96-03-15 08:39:52 EST From: Dissent222 Dear Narada - OK, you forced me to submit and I read your post. Enlightenment at last! It is a comfort to know that super-beings such as you exist in the world today. Would you mind posting the address of the temple in which images, and here I quote you, of your "body all bulging with muscles", with "the flexibility of a women gymnast, in my forties," can be worshipped? Since, quoting you again, you have evolved "into a totally independent enlighten individual," are "at the head of the class in the marital arts," and have proof that you have "overcome the inner resistance to holding a constant schedule", I must thank you for being so gracious as to allow all of us here to take advantage of your first-class-citizenship-status in the Master Race. You must have gotten that constant schedule stuff from those terrifically efficient trains they had in the Third Reich. By the way, I was reading a fascinating biography of you the other day: it's called the DSM-IV, Diagnostical and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition. The chapter on Scorpionic Personality Disorder was particularly revealing. Love, Barney the Purple Dinosaur Subj: Re:Narada, Head of the Class Date: 96-03-15 08:53:25 EST From: Howie Sm Dear Narada, You say <<>> You might want to consider seeing a doctor. Given your martial arts background, and given your disturbed and illiterate posts, it seems entirely possible that you have taken too many severe blows to the head. Subj: Unethical recruiting practices Date: 96-03-16 07:26:55 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, See AOL's Hinduism library for basic information about SYDA. The starting premise of SYDA is that Gurumayi Chidvilasananda is a self-realized being, a suitable spiritual role model. How can this destructive cult hang on to so many intelligent people for so long using this idea of her perfection as their bottom line, when it has been so thoroughly debunked by recent history? The SYDA con depends on the unethical behavior of disciples. This includes disciples who are far removed from the corrupt inner core of SYDA. An important message that should be out there is: even casual SYDA participants function as accomplices in the SYDA con--indeed, as a crucial type of accomplice. Let's take a closer look at this. If for whatever reason people feel they need to worship SYDA and Gurumayi--fine. But when they bring in new people AND DON'T TELL THEM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE SYDA STORY they are acting in a unethical way. They have stepped over the line, and are now functioning as SYDA accomplices. This is a real issue, since the front-(wo)men for SYDA's recruiting efforts are normal-looking people who often come across as trustworthy. Center leaders and many casual devotees who recruit new SYDA members know plenty about SYDA's "dark side." Though they have learned to rationalize the whole mess away, they know what some of the controversial issues are. SYDA people will of course start out by telling new prospects (often close friends and family) that Gurumayi is a "perfect being" who can give them "experiences" and "spiritual guidance." SYDA PEOPLE ALSO HAVE A DUTY TO TELL THE PEOPLE THEY ARE TRYING TO RECRUIT THE REST OF THE STORY. THIS ACCOUNT SHOULD INCLUDE THE FACTS OF SYDA'S CHECKERED PAST AND OF THE ADVERSE EFFECTS SYDA HAS HAD ON MANY. Those involved in a SYDA recruiting effort can tell SYDA's story with a pro-SYDA slant and in their own words, but they should tell it. To not tell newcomers the whole story, in some form, is unconscionable. If you were a doctor and knew about the horrible side effects a medication had on other patients, and if you gave an innocent new patient a HARD-SELL on this dubious medication and DID NOT WARN them about the side effects others had experienced, wouldn't that be unconscionable--downright sneaky? Subj: pre-wired for mysticism Date: 96-03-17 08:34:56 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Howie barging in; let's see if I get T.O.S.sed or B.O.ooed out. Shridevi mentions the transition from insider to outsider. Here's a thought on altered states inside and outside destructive cults. The world if full of experiences: mystical, altered-state, mundane, etc. No cult has a copyright on the varieties of human experience--all kinds of people have intense experiences under all kinds of conditions. The belief that participation in a bizarre cult provides a needed "boost," makes one special, or gives one a privileged connection to the "experience" of God is both hubristic and insecure. In the next sentence, I narrowly interpret the phrase "Losing one's religion" to mean leaving a destructive cult. "Losing one's religion" and dumping unnecessary religious affectation is an excellent way for mystically-oriented people to verify that "WE ALL GOT THE SPIRIT, ALL THE TIME!" The following puts this beautifully: <<>> Being human is indeed an amazing thing! In cyberspeech terms, I say the mystical experience is hard-wired into us. No need to "install" brainwashing software. ****** Insider P. S. Drats! Almost got through a whole message without the words "brainwashing," "zombie," etc., etc. Subj: "love bombers" need love too! Date: 96-03-17 11:14:13 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Cult members get comfortable with adopting a markedly familiar and friendly tone with people they barely know. Natural friendliness is one thing. But love-bombing is another. Love-bombing is neither love, nor friendliness. One key difference is: a love-bomber will be friendly to a total stranger, yet shun (and sometimes persecute) someone who was their best friend for years just because the friend left the cult. I don't buy some of the friendly stances on these folders. They smack of love-bombing. Love-bombing neutralizes key issues by reifying "loving chit chat" as the only recognized mode of discourse. This is what is done inside cults. When successfully done, any statement that is not "loving chit chat" (the reified norm) is not recognized by the group as having any substance. In so many of these cults, a primary linguistic marker of group membership is non-deviance from, and constant reinforcement of, "loving chit chat." Discussion of cult recovery issues does, of course encompass loving chit chat. But it sometimes requires a frank approach. The insistence that discussion everywhere need conform to cultish norms of "love bombing" discourse is inappropriate. Many cult issues are inherently intense, and it is belittling to insist that people conform to a tea-party approach when trying to grapple with them. Love bombing is not only a means of manipulation and peer pressure used for recruiting (and for discrediting and neutralizing the statements of cult critics). It is a means of allaying neurotic anxiety in the love bomber. The love bomber NEEDS to love bomb, for (s)he has neurotic anxiety whenever the linguistic markers of the cult are departed from. Indeed, it is often difficult for love bombers to even access their feelings in discussions in which cult linguistic markers are absent. Talking to people who are in the process of leaving a cult thus becomes a kind of balancing act. Friends or relatives of a cult member naturally want to respond warmly to "love bombing" so that the process of exploring thoughts and feelings can continue. The big danger of reflecting love bombing back to a love bomber is that you become an object of manipulation, and ultimately fall into the trap of recreating the language-game of the cult. It takes time for people to recover from brainwashing. Recovery is quicker if people avoid using cult linguistic markers and language games to allay neurotic anxiety. Subj: Re:"love bombers" need love Date: 96-03-17 12:49:18 EST From: Dissent222 YES, Howie!!! Thanks for the love bomb analysis. When I'm being love bombed, I feel the intense pressure of all that person's disavowed aggression, anger, and hostility -- and they succeed in enraging me. All that denied and suppressed aggression has to go somwhere - the love bomber, especially while bombing an apostate, induces in the object of their bomb. Shrinks call it projective identification. Anyway, you've said it with great clarity - I say AMEN. Subj: ann arbor Date: 96-03-17 16:23:27 EST From: Shridevi Many people have asked me to tell about my experience in Ann Arbor, so here goes. I hope I don't get sued. I'm going to start this story a little further back, with some personal vignettes. First of all, in Ann Arbor they had several different centers and a Guru Gita every day of the week. I used to play harmonium for several gitas and a few satsangs every week. There were a couple of good drummers and one sort of mediocre drummer. Ken Oglivie. Gradually, the good drummers could simply not deal with the controlling music wallas, so they stopped playing. Chanting was never the same again. But wait! Some of us decided that this is America, we have freedom of religion, why don't we get together and chant in an unofficial, just friendly setting. So we did. These chants were much better than the official chants, so we did some more. And like, one of the reasons they were better is that the whole herd, control thing was completely absent. Here were a bunch of people who had been around long enough to not take the latest trip as God's (tos) truth. And we had FUN. We enjoyed each others company. We even like, drank wine sometimes and like, talked and laughed about sex and stuff. OMIGOD!!! Like, what were we thinking? Surely Shiva is everything BUT like, hanging loose like THAT!!! Which is what the official people might have thought because I heard that they 'sent' Ken Oglivie to go to one of these chants and report back. More on that later. So anyway, some of these people were like, old friends of Nityananda. I found out he was coming and really thought nothing of it, as far as I can remember. A few weeks later, the official AA SY leaders found out. (At the time this included: Colin Horn, Harry Cohen, David and Gretchen Gruner, Krishni Ruth, the Slomovitz' and to a lesser extent, Dick Mann. Dick was dealing with the fact that Jean was dying, and so he was in his own world at that time, as far as I could tell. Anyway, the usual bunch.) So there was this big hoopla when they found out 'fatso' was coming. Here is what I remember. I remember that my friends (don't think I'll mention their names) were being - i don't know what the word is. People were going over to their houses and spending hours trying to get information out of them, find out where they were at, trying to get them to confess or whatever . . . really aggressive. Aggressive stuff. They told me who went to their house but I can't remember. I could call and ask, but who cares. I would guess somebody from the above list. One of my friends, who was very very close to Baba for many years, told me he said to them that he was not going to allow them to make decisions for him about who he can and cannot spend time with (meaning Nityananda.) He also made comments to the fact that he had no illusions about Baba's sex thing. That is all I can remember. I also heard that, at the same time they attacked these certain people, they also dug up gripes they had with other members. They told a couple that they could not continue to have the Guru Gita at their house because they refused to sell SY in their hatha yoga classes. This was considered to be insubordinate, I guess. So the people were punished by moving Wednesday GG or whatever to another persons house. The rest of us were told that if we had anything to do with these friends of ours, we would not be allowed to come back to Siddha Yoga. continue Subj: ann arbor part two Date: 96-03-17 16:46:02 EST From: Shridevi Around the same time, I went to South Fallsburg with a friend of mine. I was careful to mention, when introducing him to GM, that he was from Ann Arbor. I knew this would get him some special attention. It worked. He was quickly swept into VIP status. It also got me special attention, but that is another story. So while I was in South Fallsburg, there was this official meeting for Ann Arbor devotees in Shivo'ham, the children's meditation hall. I was there, of course. Present besides myself were Swami Shantananda, Amanda whatever her name is from "spanda karikas" or whatever department that is, and that older french guy from Paris - Antoine whatever and a bunch of Ann Arbor people. Colin Horn, Dick Mann, Jan Cohen, Zenita Horn, Krishni Ruth, some young U of M students who were new to siddha yoga . . . Several things happened in this meeting, i can't remember in what order. Somewhere toward the beginning, we were asked the questions: What does Siddha Yoga mean to you? (Everyone went around and said in what seemed to me to be a very robotic manner "Siddha Yoga means EVERYTHING to me" just as casual as that.) And, later: What would you do for Siddha Yoga? (Just as casual people said they would hide in the bushes and take pictures of people who went to see Nityananda (Jan Cohen) etc etc. Richard Mann mentioned that this meeting was sounding a little too much like the Hare Krishnas - but everyone ignored him.) Antoine talked about how the Parisians really organized against Nityananda and he was so proud to say that Nityananda wouldn't be coming back THERE anytime soon!! When the time came for me to say "what does siddha yoga mean to me" I broke down and cried and said what I had been thinking for a long time at that point: "if siddha yoga meant everything to me i would be doing my sadhana like baba did his, and i'm not." Amanda told me that it would be good for me to take the 'Seva Course.' Obviously my intimate disclosure was just an opportunity to sell stuff. Somewhere in all this they talked about how bad my friends were. "They drink wine! How disgusting! How could anyone call himself Baba's disciple if he drinks WINE!! (swami shantananda) "Yes, it feels so much BETTER now that we have all of those people OUT of our CLEAN space!!!" (Zenita Horn) "I always felt like there was something wrong with (so and so) he always DID give me the creeps" (young U of M student/sy neophyte who didn't even KNOW the person she was condeming . . . ) Then, they brought out pictures of Nityanada. Swami Shantananda: "LOOK! Here's FATSO with his FAT GIRLFRIEND!! And look! here's fatso getting in his car!! how disgusting. Look! Here' fatso getting out of his car!! who does he think he is . . . " (He showe d us 8 x 10 black and whites of Nityananda getting in and out of his car. Pretty benign as far as i could tell.) Unbelievably full of hatred. Shantananda's voice was like snake's venom. He was practically hissing. I was shocked. I did not think this had much to do with seeing god in people. Nor did i exactly feel comfortable doing this in a meditation hall. That was the gist of things. There is more to the story of course, but I have to go meet my friends now. later, Subj: Re:"love bombers" need love Date: 96-03-17 16:04:19 EST From: Shridevi There is another shrink word for it - a passive into active test. People who have been love bombed (abused) want to love bomb you to see if you can pass the test that they failed. This is more a theory of therapy than of day to day interactions but anyway. The constipated knot in my gut tightens every time I read or get caught up in the spiritual tar baby trip. (it's got to come out good in the end, there has got to be a "higher" answer which resolves contradictions, etc etc etc.) The constipation ends when I read you guys (howie/dissent) hauling off and telling it like it is. Anticipating dinner with Ram, a person whom I used to more or less idealize when I was young, I try to imagine myself being absolutely authentic. Then, I try to imagine ways that I could "politely" say - I basically think you're a deluded fool - without losing my own sense of humor. But thinking about projective identification for a minute - how could I avoid feeling like hissing at them if that is what is being implanted into me? So, basically, I'm going to have dinner and I'm inevitably going to feel like ripping someone's head off, brains in my teeth, spit blood on the floor, have a 'screaming kriya' and walk out. And if i manage to be polite, where is this violence going to go? into my gut. feeling all night like i got the wind knocked out of me. feeling 'disempowered' and being an energetic 'case' for what happens when you 'fall from grace.' Will Ram "pray for me who has wrong understanding? Would I rather just be burned at the stake? Would I rather tell them to "suck my aura"? That is the closest thing. Here I am you guys. I'm dealing with this thing still. I can see it clearly. I understand all of the cultural linguistics stuff. But I still can't take that (TOS.) Still constipated. Remember that e-mail about tippy wippy toeing? These (TOS) toe shoes won't come off. The tutu is too tight. I have the guts of the sugar plum fairy. yours, s. S Subj: More Ann Arbor Date: 96-03-17 19:33:55 EST From: Dissent222 Shridevi - Can't wait for further installments on the Ann Arbor story. In NYC, a number of us staff went and stood outside his program, this is back in 1986 or so. We had pads to write down all the names of Gurumayi's devotees who came to his program, and if they had seva positions in the Manhattan ashram, they got fired from those positions immediately. We took snap shots of the people who were going in to his program to show to Gurumayi. We called Shankarananda and Nityananda all sorts of names, and generally acted like gestapo. I'm not very proud of this at all. Who were the protesters? - those kind, good people we all love in So. Fallsburg - Shyamala, Matt Barziza, others. We did the same in Boston - sent Ganesh Irelan, Raghu Butler, Abhimanyu Goldberg, Devala (?), over to "fatso's" (what Gurumayi and George Afif insisted we all call him). The gurumayi boys got in a fist fight with the Nityananda people, after Ganesh yelled obscenities. Those of us who weren't at Nityananda's program were in the Boston Ashram, telling people how many female swamis Nutyananda had seduced, how he made his girlfriend get an abortion. When I think now how Afif and Gurumayi were lovers all that time, how many young girls, 13 and 14, Afif was seducing in the ashram with Gurumayi's full knowledge, it sickens me that we were willing to say those things about Nityananda, on Gurumayi's behalf - all because we loved her so much and wanted only to protect and defend her. In India, Mr. Jyoshi chased Nityananda all over the continent, rabble rousing the devotees to harass and intimidate him, while Sharmaji got nasty newspaper articles printed everywhere Nityananda went. I thought I had gotten into SYDA for the purpose of enlightenment, and then I was told enlightenment meant loyalty and surrender to the guru, you know, give him your car and your wife, like it says in the Guru Gita. It's still painful and always will be to face the fact that I allowed Gurumayi to make me her accomplice in the sick, wretched games that she plays. Subj: SYDAites lack of creativity Date: 96-03-17 20:56:35 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, SYDA is considered by many--even some who are pro-yoga and pro-guru--to be a destructive organization. See AOL's Hinduism library for background information. This message talks about the loss of creativity and independent thought that is characteristic of long-time members of the SYDA cult. Many, many people who are on a "spiritual trip"--and have lost their mental powers in the process--are scarcely able to express themselves except in the crudest, stereotyped ways. Plagiarism, scripted paraphrase, anecdote recitation, and platitude-spouting are the favored modalities of SYDA zombiespeak. Great examples of this "language" can be found in the collected writings of Gurumayi (SYDA's current leader, whom disciples claim is a perfect being). The three exhibits below illustrate what can only be described as a TOTAL lack of creativity and thought energy--something particularly characteristic of long-time SYDA cult members. Exhibit 1 is "party line," Exhibit 2 is "plagiarism," and Exhibit 3 is "parroting a platitude out of context." Given Einstein's biography, the last exhibit is particularly ironic. A couple of comments before showing the exhibits. Exhibits 2 and 3 would be fine somewhere else. But here, on this folder, at this point in time? Keep in mind that these SYDA folders have recently featured shocking information about SYDA on a nearly daily basis. The dumping of the below-cited kind of contextless, perfumed spirituality (without comments of any kind) is far from inspiring--It is bizarre, and in my view indicates some derangement of thought process. Some cult-induced defect in expressive capacity has perhaps rendered the authors incapable of stating their thoughts about the ethical problems in SYDA in a direct way. If frank discussion and disclosure of SYDA's ethical problems triggers robotoid responses like these from cult members (or other nutty onlookers), it is no small wonder why SYDA's problems have continued unchecked for years. I urge the posters of these sort of messages to try to speak their minds directly, and to try to create their own sentences. You might find you have something to say--you might find your own power again. EXHIBITS ***************** PARTY-LINER TESTIMONIAL (fresh out of the autoclave.) <<>> THE PLAGIARISM METHOD OF COMMUNICATION (this was posted without any commentary) <<>> PARROTING OUT OF CONTEXT (A person who can't put two words together dragging in Einstein's view of art! Give me a break!) <<>> Subj: The Bottom Line Date: 96-03-17 22:44:09 EST From: N99D It seems that those who want to remain in Siddha Yoga can make up any excuse to do so, in spite of the irrefutable evidence indicting the very people who control it. I can say this, because I ignored plenty of abuse and accounts of Muktananda and Gurumayi's sexual and political activities. Finally, the news about the destruction of the South Fallsburg fish spawning grounds by the crew's project at Lake Nityananda woke me up to the fact that perhaps not all was immaculate at the Ashram. As soon as I began to question the Ashram's spin on things, the stories that I ignored began to make a lot more sense, and the excellent article by Lis Harris in the November 14, 1994 New Yorker rang truer than any story of Gurumayi and baba's "perfection". It's hard to leave a community one has put the best of oneslf into for many years, but a far greater hardship is ignoring and denying the pain of your fellow people in order to perpetuate a false leader. Good luck to all of you who seek the truth. Subj: Re:The Bottom Line Date: 96-03-17 23:29:12 EST From: JamesN26 Shridevi, Thanks you for sharing your story. It is an important one for people to hear, whether they consider themselves supporters, apologists, ex-siddhayogis, whatever. I sort of write off the reactive drivel that many people post, but it is very hard not to seriously consider your experiences. I, for one, would be eager to help you if, in fact, your posts brought you unwanted attention. Jeez, what is the Sanskrit word for "assholes?" Jim Jim Subj: Re:Musings--Part 2 Date: 96-03-18 05:04:58 EST From: Shridevi Larry has said: "Now, having learned of abuses that have taken place, many of us are confronted with a mentality that blames us as accomplices or perpetrators of that abuse just for wanting to continue what has become our personal style of connecting to our own inner core." Not at all. I think we are all just looking at our own hearts and wondering what is the relationship between HOW we choose to continue the practices and our conscience. I had dinner tonight with a rising star harmonium player from SY. He plays harmonium for SY, and also for other gurus. He's great and in demand. The ashram told him he could not do this. He stood up to them. He spoke out with solidity and integrity. He continually plants seeds of integrity in that place. This, as an example, is a very different way of doing practice and being in the ashram that being passive and silent. I agree that there are all kinds of ways to do this. There are many ways to combine our spirituality and our social conscience. I think it is an effort of collaboration and tolerance to discover the different ways we are all approaching this issue. Here is an opportunity to make a difference in some small part of the world based on our relationship to this place, our integrity, our passion. Frinstance: aesthetically/metaphysically (and the metaphysical aesthetic) SY is not my bag. the SY culture, though sweet in many ways, bores me. I don't really care if other people have different aesthetic choices around this. Ethically though, I feel very strongly that to practice SY in the established, official culture of SY is suspect. There are plenty of other venues for such practice. I'm not denying that there were good things about Baba, but in the cultural context of establishment SY, the bad things are completely repressed and denied and people that attempt to speak the truth (most especially about on-going abuse) are silenced. This is not something that this Bill of Rights loving American can tolerate. If we are silenced about this, what about when the stakes get higher? Then what. You see, the culture of SY, the established, official organization is a SOCIAL phenomenon as much or more so than it is a spiritual phenomenon. The spiritual part will go on regardless of SY. In the spiritual realm we can talk about scriptures and abstract spiritual things. But in the social realm, we have a social and spiritual and innate responsibility toward our fellow humans, and when this social thing is violated so grossly in the here and now, it forces different kinds of questions. I still kind of think that this whole thing belongs in the debate folder. I do not want to use this folder as a 'safer' place to have a 'toned down' debate. This is folder is for people who have perhaps crossed a threshold that you are not interested in crossing for one reason or another, which is fine, but then you're not contributing to THIS issue. It's a debate. A polite debate, but a debate nevertheless. It doesn't seem to me that you are really struggling with these things. It seems to me that you are comfortable on the fence, which is you perogative, and that you want to defend that position, which is fine. I'm not sure this is the folder to do that. Subj: SYDAites don't want the truth Date: 96-03-18 07:10:56 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, The following newsgroup message captures some feelings that are common in those who try to talk about SYDA cult to friends and loved ones who just don't want to hear. BEGIN QUOTED MATERIAL <<>> Subj: To all "scarlet letter" folk Date: 96-03-18 07:43:43 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Here's the big irony for those who stand for themselves instead of a group. For those who are committed to the ideals of yoga, and who regard the Indian cultural tradition with awe. For those who pursue meditation and prayerful devotion with integrity. For those who feel that as thankless as the job may be, that it is time--in the name of mystical experience and personal integrity--TO CLEAN OUT THE STABLE. For those who blow the whistle. For those who say "enough is enough." For those who don't silently smile wanly while others talk crazy. For those who wish to simply unburden themselves of things they have known for years but have never voiced. Here's the irony for those who strive to remain true to their spiritual ideals: They are regarded as UNSPIRITUAL. And worse. Why? Largely because they don't "go along with the flow." Failure to conform to fish schooling behavior causes little pricks of anxiety in the fish, which in turn causes them to accuse the nonconformist of being "rude," "hateful," "villainous," "angry," etc. The same names that dedicated police officers are called, officers who put their lives on the line BECAUSE THEY CARE. I ask you: if the flow in a given cult group is going down the sewer, how on earth can a spiritual person go with it? In my book, telling someone "where you're at" directly is a form of respect. Life is too short to sugarcoat everything. Besides, sugarcoating sends a mixed message. I just cannot believe that people call the impulse to talk straight "unspiritual." If you're still with me here, thanks for listening. Subj: is the guru deluded? Date: 96-03-18 12:29:58 EST From: Soloflyr11 dear shree, your post (in which folder?) made me want to relate some of my recent experiences with people still in syda. with the first two syda-ites (cuz and friend) my telling the truth caused giant rifts in both relationships. with my cuz i hope some day we will work it out. meanwhile i am staying away. after those two experiences i learned to forewarn people. for example i ran into a syda-ite who asked how i liked seeing gurumayi. i said to him that i didn't think he would like to hear what i had to say. he said something like "no i don't want to hear any negative stuff", at which point he went on for several minutes about the glories of the guru, how beautiful she was, how much shakti, blah blah blah. i walked away with yet another one of those screams shoved down into my gut. but i also vowed to myself that i would not put myself through that ever again. and haven't. i really don't ever want to sit and hear about the wonders of the guru if i cannot also speak my truth. i realize now that i had learned to have the respect to ask if he wanted to hear what i had to say, but clearly he had not.... won't happen again... so that's where i'm at right now. and it will change again i'm sure... maybe someday i will be able to feel more compassion for their ignorance, but right now i find it still too frustrating to listen to... i also see much of the frustration leaving me already, so we'll see... when i first left i had a lot of (tos) in my brain about failing, falling from grace etc. i fought it valiantly but still some lingered in the shadows. as i read your post i am realizing how much that garbage has been flushed from my system. hallelujah. when i first left i remember struggling a lot with what my friends were thinking about me (dry swamps and all), it was difficult having my friends look down on me so disparagingly. glad that's passed... the other night i kept having the thoughts like these: is the guru ignorant? is the guru stuck in her own web of delusion? or is it an out and out power trip.... solo<--who is still practising taking off her tippy toe shoes p.s. howie, i'm still with you, loving it!!!! loved the quote from the newgroup in the other folder... thank you.... Subj: Howie's dinner party Date: 96-03-18 15:47:32 EST From: Howie Sm ************* SYDA HUMOR FOLLOWS--READ AT PERIL OF YOUR SOUL If I had a dinner party for Ram Butler, I would invite and have at hand: 1. A party-animal Nityananda look-alike dressed in orange. 2. Bottles of wine from Ann Arbor. 3. A belly dancer. 4. A "60 Minutes" reporter in a bad mood with prepared interrogatories. 5. A special prosecutor acting on behalf of the IRS and the Labor Department. 6. An anesthesiologist with "truth serum" and a tape recorder. 7. A couple of experienced deprogrammers (in case conversation flags). 8. A conceited millionaire New Age author who writes material like (but inferior to) Ram Butler's who would gloat a lot, punctuating his bragging with "thank God I didn't hand over my author's rights to a cult." 9. A couple of Ram-Butler straitjacketed brainwashees so he could hear his own pap fed back to him. 10. Howie Sm, and all of us. 11. Malti Shetty. Subj: Intro. to SYDA for newcomers Date: 96-03-19 16:00:18 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, SYDA people believe (and base their lives on the supposed "fact" that) they are "connected" on the "subtle plane" to Gurumayi Chidvilasanada. This is a symptom of profound brainwashing. If you ask a SYDAite "are you connected to Gurumayi on the subtle plane?," they will either say "YES," or give an evasive philosophical answer that means "YES, but you are not ready to understand this, so I will guru you a bit first." SYDA tells new recruits that "meditation experiences" are evidence of a "connection" to Gurumayi Chidvilasananda. SYDA is a multi-million dollar well-machined operation; new SYDA recruits are quickly and deeply brainwashed through the best marketing and propaganda strategies money can buy. One of the most effective recruiting concepts is the linkage of "meditation experiences" to SYDA's guru. This linkage is a fantastically effective means of imprinting even relatively new SYDA members with SYDA group doctrine. As is the case with other groups like Aum Shinrikyo, Rajneesh, and Da Free John (aka Adi Da)--and many other meditation paths--people in SYDA commonly have meditation "experiences." SYDA people who have "special" experiences at a SYDA public program are told, via well-crafted propaganada materials and presentations that: 1. the guru is the "true" source of these experiences, 2. the experiences will be "deepened" through participation in (often pricey) SYDA group activities, 3. there is a "subtle and eternal spiritual bond" between the initiate and Gurumayi Chidvilasananda, 4. that Gurumayi Chidvilasanda is a perfect being, and, for SYDAites the tangible channel through which they can access "God's grace," 5. performing unpaid labor for SYDA is a source of "grace," 6. Authorized SYDA locations (ashrams and centers) are special repositories of "spiritual energy" (shakti) so "serious" seekers should hang out there as much as possible, or move in full time. Though similar ideas are found in reputable spiritual groups, in SYDA they are misused as an mechanism for brainwashing. Siddha Yoga falls down because it is a "guru-focused path" without a qualified guru (see open letter in AOL's Hinduism library for details). Many people are quickly and deeply brainwashed by the idea that the "energy" (shakti) upon which their meditation experiences depend COMES FROM GURUMAYI CHIDVILASANANDA. Once they think they are "connected" to her, their state of brainwashing can only be described as PROFOUND. Once disciples buy that their "shakti" (spiritual force) and Gurumayi Chidvilasanada (and SYDA facilities) are linked, they become fodder for a wide variety of mind-controlling concepts that serve the monetary and power ends of the SYDA Foundation. Although SYDA cushions the six points mentioned above using the "mixed message" propaganda technique, the BEHAVIOR of SYDA disciples and the CONTENT of SYDA propaganda indicates without a doubt that the thrust of the SYDA organization's project is to fixate people on the person of Gurumayi Chidvilasananda. Onlookers--I invite you to verify all this for yourself. Although their cult recruiting strategies are slick, they will probably be more transparent to you if you take the time to read the SYDA information cited in AOL's Hinduism library. Good luck to all you seekers out there! Subj: remember me Date: 96-03-20 03:29:50 EST From: Shridevi i continue to read the debate board. who's this art st. marie and her shpeel about creativity? what is she referring back to? the only thing i can remember about creativity is my telling larry on the 'recovery' board that i feel more creative lately. i'm glad people in SY are creative. and i'm sure their sincere practice of SY is enriching and en-nobling their lives. and there is more, of course, for me. the thing that really amazes me about my friends still in SY is that they act like i have no idea what it is about. like i'm just leaving in a huff and have no sympathy with their experience. 20 years of my life is hardly insignificant, ya know? like, i was the person you had chai with every morning and i was the person who gave you a good seat up front, and i was the person who corrected your yoga pose, and i was the person who gave experience talks, and i was the person who chanted with you at the purnahutis. and i was the person who watched fireworks with you every forth of july. and i was the person who took care of you children at the children's house. and i was the person who helped you pin your sari and you pinned mine . . . and while you and i were feeling the shakti, someone like me was on a table with her legs spread and she was not even eighteen years old. and the man you and i were waving incense to was 'checking her virginity' with his limp organ. and while you and i were taking the center leader's training courses, someone like my father was being beaten for speaking the truth. and while we practiced welcoming people with love, our guru was telling michael dinga he had wrong understanding and telling swami abhayananda the some woman had twins and that proved she had sexual relations with multiple men. and while young girls were shivvering in fear, taking showers, throwing up, and resigning themselves to 10 years or so of possible sexual and emotional dysfunction, their parents were parroting things about beauty and transcendence and equal vision and all that . . . how long shall we let our daughters carry this dark shadow? i for one, shall not carry it. and i am not 'uncreative' and i am not dark and evil and hurting and angry. i am a strong and beautiful woman and i take very very seriously the original teachings of my path. and i continue to post because i continue to believe in the brotherhood and sisterhood of all beings. and i continue to fall and falter and get back up again because i trust a deeper strength and i trust people's hearts to recognize what is true. i received a great e-mail recently - that people in australia read these posts and have taken them to heart. god bless people in australia whose see with their human hearts. shree. i had a bodywork session a year or so ago where i felt all this energy in my body like i was a nanometer away from baba's sahasrar at the moment of samadhi. and i realized - this is not something i need to sell myself to the ashram to experience. that was the turning point. till then i was really tied in because i took my 'experiences' to be directly linked to that lineage. it was so liberating to see that INDEED this does exist within everyone. Subj: going solo Date: 96-03-20 03:12:37 EST From: Shridevi Thank you solo for your post. I don't know why, but the first time it was posted, I never saw it. This kind of thing is very helpful to me. I got a call from Ram today asking, humorously, for an appointment. Earlier I had left a message with my other friend saying that I changed my mind about spending the day with the two of them because it was not healthy for me. I felt totally happy and free and no, like, jab and twist stuff. Here I am, right, this pretty intelligent, aware and happy person (suffering as we all are according to the Buddhists but whatever) and I tell my friend, casually, I just want you to know that I am not in Siddha Yoga anymore. Friend says - there is no such thing. You will always belong to the Guru. I say - no, actually, that's not the case. And - are you not sure that that interpretation may not just be your need to contain my experience? He says - well, no, I don't care what you do, just don't walk down that 'dark path' with those 'angry, evil' people who are 'spitting on a saint.' I didn't ask - which saint are you talking about. I saw myself being drawn into his definition of spiritual, as if my strong feelings about something i've spent my whole life in were not ok. I did say something about how just because there are dark things happening doesn't make speaking about them dark. And I mentioned a few examples of not so spiritual things. And he then accused me of 'needing to find fault' . . . got slightly hostile, but it was very polite: "if you're so out of it then why do you need to keep talking about it." And then cautioned me about not destroying other people's sadhana. I didn't say that 'frinstance I was taking it easy on HIM. And after all this righteousness, he got mad at me for making jokes about syda culture . . . that it offended him. sigh. exhale. pant pant. bhastrika pranayama. the inner bodyworker says, let it out, let it go, its ok. breathe breathe breathe. actually, i felt totally casual after seeing him. and i feel totally casual about not spending time with them. you're right! why bother? Subj: brainwashed behavior-why? Date: 96-03-20 05:56:48 EST From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 2 Dear AOL readers, Why do SYDA followers allow themselves to subjected to verbal and other forms of abuse in SYDA? Why do they participate in unethical, and sometimes even violent, activities? Why do they turn a blind eye to negative information about their leader? The following sheds light on these aspects of the brainwashing of SYDA disciples. BEGINNING OF QUOTED MATERIAL <<>> <<>> SEE PART 2 Subj: brainwashed behavior-why? Date: 96-03-20 05:58:59 EST From: Howie Sm PART 2 QUOTED MATERIAL CONTINUED <<>> <<>> <<>>> END OF QUOTED MATERIAL Subj: What to say (1 of 2) Date: 96-03-20 05:14:39 EST From: Dissent222 Shridevi - Wow, the friend you told that you were not in syda anymore pulled out the whole panoply of stock syda stonewallers - I've heard them all myself. IN fact, syda devotees are called to special meetings where they are trained in how to respond to critics - they rehearse what to say. Damage control meetings. (Haven't you ever been to any of these meetings? I've been to dozens, seriously.) Let's start rehearsing what we say when we get these pod people responses: "You will always belong to the Guru." How rude! I'm a person, I'm not anyone's property,and certainly not some swami con-artist's. I am no longer enslaved to this person who calls themselves a perfected master - I consider her to be a fraud, a liar and a thief. Furthermore, my relationship to God is not one of master and slave - it is far richer and more complex than that. Your comments indicate that you can encompass only the narrowest, crudest ideas about being in relationship with God - and about being in relationship with people, as well. "just don't walk down that 'dark path' with those 'angry, evil' people who are 'spitting on a saint.'" Interesting. Gurumayi has been spitting on, beating up and throwing skunk oil, etc etc etc, on her brother for the last 10 years, and in India, he's not just a saint, he's a Mahamandeleshwar. I don't consider Gurumayi to be any kind of a saint. She's more like a gangster's moll in my view, having been under the thumb of George Afif for so long. The dark path of angry, evil people sounds like how fascists describe enemies of the state. When you signed up for enlightenment, did you know you'd be reduced to spouting fascist propaganda about enemies of the totalitarian state that owns you? "if you're so out of it then why do you need to keep talking about it?" Oh, so I should shut up. My experiences, if they are properly tutored to conform to syda propaganda, can be milked for every drop of sales potential in those advertisements called experience talks. But my criticism, my feelings, the voice of my own, independent mind and heart is not welcome. Are you aware that you have allowed syda to teach you to narrow down the range of your thoughts and feelings to the point where you are operating on the intellectual plane of a parrot in a cage? "cautioned me about not destroying other people's sadhana" Since when does knowing and speaking the truth destroy anyone's sadhana? Since when did sadhana become the equivalent of being a robot, a slave, a puppet? You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. The truth is, syda is a destructive cult, which reduces intelligent people to the crudest, most primitive level of being, for the purpose of increasing the wealth and power of its leaders. Syda is destroying your sadhana - watch yourself come alive the moment you leave. CONTINUED IN PART 2 Subj: what to say (2 of 2) Date: 96-03-20 05:15:25 EST From: Dissent222 Shridevi, I'm not willing to let myself be abused and revictimized by this group anymore. There are many people I loved and thought loved me. Gurumayi teaches that only her doctrine - obedience to the guru - matters; people are utterly dispensable. It hurts to be disposed of. I had pushed away all my friends who weren't in syda. Thank God they didn't just dispense with me - they are still my friends, even after all the years I disappeared in the cult. And the syda community - remember gurumayi's special message about surrender and obedience a few years ago? She said: "many people form freindships, cliques in the ashram. When they form freindships, they go to their freinds for help instead of the guru. When they talk among themselves they talk about their freinds, not about the guru. Then when they have a problem they have to take drugs." (Let's see, was she talking about Swami Sevananda, or Noni, who was addicted to tranquilizers all those year he served Baba and beyond?) Anyway, the above quote from Gurumayi demonstrates her extreme paranoia. Her devotees are trained like dogs to obey her, the word "freind" is turned into a term of disdain and contempt. So you can expect your syda "freinds", most of them, to spit in your face when you tell them the truth. Maybe that's the answer to why do you keep talking about it if it's over. I guess I keep thinking maybe some of the people I care about can be saved from the dark tunnel of self-annihilation and fascism called SYDA. Subj: Re:what to say (2 of 2) Date: 96-03-20 11:16:00 EST From: Howie Sm Dear Shridevi and Dissent, You are saying things that really need to be said on this "what to say" thread. Thanks for that. The idea of a SYDA disciple needing to caution <<>> (this bizarre idea is cited in your posts) is about as wrong-headed a thing as I've ever heard. This SYDA person thinks that a declarative sentence or two from some onlooker might be enough to DESTROY a "spiritual seeker's" sadhana. If that's all it takes to destroy SYDA spirituality, it would seem that SYDA is a pretty weak spiritual path. I've heard this before. "BIG BROTHER serves mankind, by protecting congenital idiots from baddy-waddy reality." "All ye who join the sane are hereby CAUTIONED to keep a secret of it from crazy Aunt Dodie in the basement (? !)." SYDA people's souls don't need to be artificially shielded from some average guy somewhere who is talking. (This is cult boundary control at its most obvious--more on that in the ethics folder later.) Destroying other people's sadhana? I've heard it all now. Subj: the guru-disciple bond 1/4 Date: 96-03-21 13:31:37 EST From: Howie Sm "YOU WILL ALWAYS BELONG TO THE GURU" (PART 1 OF 4) Dear AOL readers, One of Gurumayi Chidvilasananda's disciples said to a person who has left Siddha Yoga, "you will always belong to the guru." YOU WILL ALWAYS BELONG TO THE GURU. What stands behind this peculiar statement, a statement which brings up images of Mafia Dons on one hand and schizophrenics on the other? ---Through SYDA talks and publications, followers are taught that the bond between guru and disciple is unshakeable and eternal. They are taught that the bond is formed through an initiation in which the guru's energy is supposedly installed in the disciple. Disciples believe that the guru will be "in their heads, guiding their souls" at all times, even when they aren't explicitly conscious of it. This doctrine can be found in SYDA's published materials. To be sure, there are qualified gurus who teach similar things. The problem is, SYDA teaches the theory of the "guru-bond" in a self-serving, crude, and literal way. The crudity with which yogic concepts are learned in SYDA is exemplified in the above bizarre statement made by Gurumayi Chidvilasananda's disciple to an ex-disciple: "YOU WILL ALWAYS BELONG TO THE GURU." SEE PART 2 Subj: the guru-disciple bond 2/4 Date: 96-03-21 13:33:03 EST From: Howie Sm "YOU WILL ALWAYS BELONG TO THE GURU" (PART 2 OF 4) ---Disciples are led to believe that it is through the "bond" between guru and disciple that spiritual progress occurs. No bond--no progress. This is one of the big themes of a central text of Siddha Yoga, Swami Muktananda's autobiography. This belief is at first adopted by the disciples with relish. It relieves their anxiety to think that through SYDA they have a kind of "guardian angel" who will now "take charge" of their life and make everything nice. It is like having a GUARANTEE of spiritual redemption. They see the guru "installed inside of them" as a all-purpose protector. After a time, disciples ignore all information that contradicts this addictive delusion and reflexively defend the cult against outsiders--at all costs, by whatever means. ---The early stage of cult membership, when the disciples are still "blissful" about having a "guiding guru within," is a crucial period for brainwashing. It is at this time that cult answers to various questions are taught, often in a rote, simplistic manner. Even intelligent people, under the sway of the bliss that comes from experiencing temporarily reduced anxiety, comply with the brainwashing regime without fully realizing what is happening to them. It is at this time that concepts like "YOU WILL ALWAYS BELONG TO THE GURU" are pumped into new converts. SEE PART 3 Subj: the guru-disciple bond 3/4 Date: 96-03-21 13:34:20 EST From: Howie Sm "YOU WILL ALWAYS BELONG TO THE GURU" (PART 3 OF 4) ---In order to maintain appearances in the "outside" world, which might perceive SYDA doctrine as bizarre, disciples hide their real beliefs from outsiders. As part of the messy task of negotiating the boundary between cult and outside activities, SYDAites learn early on to conceal from outsiders the extent of their involvement in SYDA's thought-system. (This is the norm in most cult groups that have members residing outside of the cult compound.) ---What SYDAites think, and what they profess to think to outsiders, are two different things. That is why those interested in studying the SYDA phenomenon should focus on the content of SYDA's unedited public lectures as well as SYDA's published materials; the disciples themselves will routinely deny the extent to which they believe SYDA's official doctrine. Because of this furtiveness, a clear view of the scope of SYDA brainwashing can only be directly had by gaining a disciple's confidence. ---Ironically, it is the less disturbed disciples who openly admit their beliefs; the disciples who "act normal"--the disciples who insist that their involvement is moderate--are the more repressed, the more schizoid, members of the SYDA group. SEE PART 4 Subj: the guru-disciple bond 4/4 Date: 96-03-21 13:35:39 EST From: Howie Sm "YOU WILL ALWAYS BELONG TO THE GURU" (PART 4 OF 4) ---As the years go by, the idea that the guru is "eternally in your head" festers and causes an unhealthy condition in the mind of the disciple. Bizarre life decisions and mental dysfunction are the norm. For many, socializing with members outside of the cult and reading non-cult material becomes increasingly difficult; "commuter" disciples find themselves spending increased amounts of energy maintaining "normal appearances" to outsiders while furtively worrying about the imagined dictates of their "inner guru." ---Some ex-disciples are still afraid that the guru might somehow retaliate using the "spiritual bond" as a means--they are afraid the guru might "psychically attack" them, or otherwise cause harm through some magic. This insane and profoundly disordered state of mind is the end-product of the brainwashing that begins with a seemingly-innocent "blissful" experience. Recovery from this condition--the delusional state that comes from believing that someone else is monitoring and influencing your consciousness--is not an easy matter. ---The delusion of the guru's omnipresence is something that older disciples defend at all costs. Violent and sociopathic behavior is not unusual in messianic cults like SYDA (SYDA claims Gurumayi Chidvilasananda is a perfect being, a "world-guru" (sadguru)). Even casual disciples who are not part of SYDA's full-time labor colony will exhibit bizarre behavior when faced with information threatening their delusions. ---A friend leaving SYDA is a threatening stimulus for a Gurumayi follower. Commonly, the follower will react to this kind of outside (non-cult) information by first exhibiting an emotionally blank affect, followed by the recitation of previously brainwashed cult-phrases, such as "YOU WILL ALWAYS BELONG TO THE GURU." Just imagine what has been done to the mind of someone who, upon hearing that a good friend is moving on and away from the cult, says: "YOU WILL ALWAYS BELONG TO THE GURU." SYDA's is an alarming process of mind control. Subj: Re:the guru-disciple bond 1/2 Date: 96-03-23 07:13:52 EST From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 2 Mira Bai M says, <<>> Dear Mira Bai M and AOL readers, Hello MiraBaiM--yes, it is a common doctrine, as I mentioned in my previous message without expanding on it. Why is this potentially good idea such a mess the way SYDA handles it? SYDA diverges from reputable guru situations in a number of ways, and that is why it's adoption of the idea "the guru is ever with you" is a travesty. Below is just ONE of those ways SYDA travestizes. (To go into how SYDA travestizes is an endless subject, so I'll only say one thing about it for now). SEE PART 2 Subj: Re:the guru-disciple bond 2/2 Date: 96-03-23 07:17:04 EST From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 2 Here's just one of the ways SYDA's claim to being a guru-disciple system is a sham. (Other information on the controversial SYDA group is in AOL's Hinduism library.) MASS-PRODUCTION GURUING. SYDA has too many disciples for it to represent itself as a traditional guru system. Many of the believers don't know Gurumayi Chidvilasananda personally at all, yet their lives are pledged to serving her ends and the ends of the SYDA Foundation. So what is it that the believers are connected to? What they call their guru is a propaganda-fed thought-system for which the word "guru" is a linguistic marker. SYDA's mass-indoctrination method, in which access to the "physical" guru is drastically restricted, is NOT what one finds in many traditional guru cults. In other guru cults, one can really claim the guru is like a member of the family. One alarming result of SYDA's mass-production system is--even disciples who strenuously argue that they worship the "inner guru" (and not the "physical guru") nonetheless bear the stamp of SYDA brainwashing. That is because in SYDA the word "guru" is, as just mentioned, little more than a linguistic placeholder for a mass of concepts which correspond with SYDA's brainwashing regime. Again, in SYDA, most people have no actual interaction with Gurumayi Chidvilasananda. SYDA is not a guru system, by any reasonable standard. It is widely recognized that giving a mass "blessing" (darshan) at Indian festivals to mobs is A DIFFERENT SPIRITUAL CONTEXT than the tantric ritual of "awakening" a prepared disciple's kundalini, which is traditionally very intimate and the culmination of a long one-on-one relationship. SYDA conveniently conflates the two spiritual contexts for self-serving reasons. SYDA's claim to being a guru-disciple system is a sham--just for this one reason alone. There are many more reasons. Subj: Re:what to say (2 of 2) Date: 96-03-22 17:33:35 EST From: Shridevi well, friends on this board, i'm glad you're out there. sometimes it feels weird letting myself hang out here when the chances are pretty good some perfect stranger could totally wig out and think bizarre thoughts about where my head might be at. but, nevertheless, i'm glad to have a little etheric space to come back to after my fores into the world of SY. the world is as you see it. this sutra is banging around in my head as if it is supposed to be the answer. it may be part of the answer. but what about taking responsibility for ourselves and our actions? why is this other half so conspicuously absent? it makes me wonder. there are many ways to have a plate in our heads. we can have some really neo-christian, fascist plate or we can have a 'shaivite' plate. either way, we're out of touch. ram told me that at his workshop in LA he went on and on about the catholic church. he said - "my eleven year old son is intelligent enough to realize how ridculous it is that someone died for our sins." an eleven year old kid is probably intelligent enough to think it is weird that young girls take their clothes off on tables for shiva, too. i asked ram what it would be like for him if his daughter ended up on a table. (he has a baby girl now) he said this was an irrelevant question because that was the past, it wouldn't happen now. what if someone else was inappropriate with her and she got stigmatized for it? that is not the past. will it just be her karma? these are some of the thoughts that enter my mind when i spend time around this head space. i think all kinds of things. sometimes i try to just zone out. it makes me nervous that people can write off these things so easily. it just makes me nervous, that's all. shree. Subj: being nervous Date: 96-03-22 21:06:20 EST From: Dissent222 Shri - Being nervous about syda's history and the way in which it is denied, covered-up and falsified, is a sane response; the numbness and denial of ram butler et alia is really, really crazy - it is way over the borderline. Subj: Re:being nervous Date: 96-03-23 07:53:01 EST From: Howie Sm Dear Shridevi, Thanks for posting. You say <<>> In my view, yours is the voice of sanity and subtlety. The only people thinking bizarre thoughts around here are the denialists and rationalizers (like Ram). It doesn't matter what the zombie part of those people think of us--we're talking to the person submerged inside. Let's hope that something we say jump-starts their critical faculties. For speaking up to Ram, GOOD FOR YOU! That brainwasher could use a dose of sanity. Shridevi, you say <<>> As with all good maxims, its sense lies in its application. All too often, this maxim is the window to ethics-blind solipsistic madness (Charlieism). I think the world can be a better place--the world can be as we envision it--if people strive to help one another. The narcissism in SYDA is a turnoff. It's as if they are too busy staring at their navels (or in stereotyped two-way love bombing routines) to even notice the world at all! ! ! You say, <<>> Steve Hassan, a former Moonie, was trying to talk a Hare Krishna into leaving the HK cult. In the course of conversation, the HK found out that Hassan was a former Moonie and said something like: "I can't believe that you (Hassan) would go for that Moonie nonsense! ! !" Ram poo-pooing Christianity (while being a cult-zombie himself) reminds me of this conversation of Steve Hassan with the brainwashed HK. Some of these SYDAites really count themselves among the sane--I find that amazing. You say, <<>> Even though it appears Ram admitted to you, off the record, that Baba's sexual misconduct occurred, I doubt if he would admit it to a reporter or in his "correspondence course." Another two-faced SYDAite. Garden variety. I wonder if Gurumayi would frown upon him for straying from his leash by speaking of the sexual misconduct. You say, <<>> It makes me more than nervous, it makes me say something about it (in the small way that I do). SYDA created the problem--we didn't. It's up to others to address it, since SYDA is by no means going to self-correct. Thanks again for posting. Subj: as you see it Date: 96-03-23 11:17:08 EST From: Soloflyr11 dear shree, once again your post makes me want to leap through cyberspace and give you a hug. the sutra, the world is as you see it, makes sense to me... if you have a limited view of the world, if it includes denial, if they way you see is according to what you are told to see, then by george i think your world will be quite limited and distorted... lately i have been thinking that one of the ways to freedom is to stop holding on to any agenda.... or as you said <> loved that, don't think you can be in touch if you're busy holding on to plates. i think we have to drop the plates to see the truth. so much energy spent defending our plates, decorating our plates, admiring our plates, selling our plates, so little energy spent being in touch, seeing the truth. i'm glad it only makes you nervous to see how people write things off, i myself get a little more upset and frustrated still, especially if it's someone that was a friend. i'm still trying to understand how i wrote things off, how i was able to buy all the explanations, rationals, how i was able to swallow the whole rotten fish.... well it didn't taste rotten, it tasted great in a lot of ways. but it made me sick in a lot aways too and i just kept trying to push that aside cause i didn't want to lose the good stuff. was i just a total sucker for a slick propaganda schtick??? how embarrassing, but hey i learned my lesson. i read this quote in the paper the other day which i liked , "It seems like the human animal has this need to give itself away to something...It's like a religious impulse. You think: Something is more important than me. I give myself away to it. It will take care of me in some very broad, general kind of way." (David Foster Wallace) think that's some of the story... later, solo p.s. howie (or anyone), i would love to see you address the phenomena of gurumayi's "apparent" power (which i really believed in for 8 years and frankly the belief lingered for quite some time afterwards....). aside from propaganda, from my own observations i really did think that she had "powers". i still haven't totally resolved that one.... Subj: unsolicited response Date: 96-03-23 12:19:08 EST From: Soloflyr11 dear person who wrote to charlie in the other folder, you said <> well i've been thinking lately about how i really believed in gurumayi, and loved her. i believed she was what she said she was. now when i try to understand how i could have succumbed to such belief, i find there are many answers. and one thing i realize is that i made a mistake and chose a symbol, a representative of the divine, that was not pure. i learned *many* lessons from this error, maybe even more than i learned from being submerged in this belief. and let me tell you it was not easy extricating myself from this belief, but the rewards made it worth it. it was like ripping my own heart out tearing myself from my love from gurumayi, but i reached a point where that which "bothered" me was strong enough to get me to move on. talk about conflict!!!!! i am seeing clearer and clearer what a web of lies i was emeshed in. i was a sincere seeker. but in many ways i was brainwashed, i accepted and spouted syda's explanations for many things, i was very ignorant. now i see my errors, it has taken some time. it did feel a bit insane trying to make sense of such discrepancies and it did make me feel a bit insane to have my own feelings and thoughts actively invalidated by all my siddha yoga friends... i know you didn't ask for anyone's feedback besides charlie, but i just felt moved to write this.... sincerely, solo Subj: Re:p.s. Date: 96-03-23 13:57:56 EST From: Howie Sm Dear folks, Great messages Soloflyr. Soloflyr reposted this unknown person's statement: <>> First, did anyone notice that Charlie is using the same dead agenting technique that Ram Butler did when trying to discredit the New Yorker article in his SYDA Correspondence Course? The technique of using some pitiable, vulnerable, anonymous person's letter as fodder for a party line disquisition? Charlie is always true to form, you've got to give him that. I honestly don't see it as a GM-bashing thing: it's called "sending up a warning flare" thing. There just is no pleasant way to convey the message of SYDA's rampant abuses of power. That doesn't mean the message shouldn't be told, or that the message constitutes "bashing" of some kind. This person claims to have read the "literature." SYDA people have no reading comprehension when it comes to comprehending that bats are loose in the SYDA belfry. Reading about, seeing, hearing, feeling, and witnessing the alleged SYDA misconduct--AND REALLY PROCESSING THE INFORMATION--are two different things. What are these SYDA people going to be saying as they get older? When their children and grandchildren start looking sideways at them? And start resenting them for raising them as "the guru's children"? How much longer can these people hang on to a saccharine illusion? Are the SYDAites going to still be talking like this after Gurumayi attains a Rajneeshian public buffoon status? Which leads me to this. Has anyone seen the recent GM videos? 100% loony tunes--that's not me overreacting--it's really obvious. Even the hard-core disciples surely must be beginning to notice. This whole SYDA situation is truly cuckoo and out of hand. The idea that holding firm to some kind of misguided "see only the positive" philosophy is going to make all the abuse unreal, and make the upcoming SYDA debacle not happen, is cult madness at its most stereotypic. As long as SYDA's brainwashing mill keeps grinding away, someone should call them on it. Subj: SYDA boundary control 1/3 Date: 96-03-25 08:18:32 EST From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 3 Dear AOL readers, SYDA disciples have been instructed to regard the allegations of sexual abuse that have been made against their gurus to be "gossip." This teaching of quasi-scripted responses is an example of "boundary control." In general, the SYDA doctrine that the disciple ignore all negative information about the cult (because such information supposedly retards spiritual growth) is an example of boundary control. Boundary control is the control of information flow in both directions--in and out of the cult body. The control of both disciples and information by SYDAites is most pronounced at the cult boundary: the perimeter where "outside consensual reality" collides with "inside cult reality." In some groups, the cult boundary is literally a geographical boundary, as for David Koresh (Koresh's property line was the cult's boundary in a literal sense). In SYDA, the cult boundary is not physical. Rather, it is the boundary of a kind of "mental space"; Gurumayi worshippers are allowed to move WITHIN her cult's defined boundaries of thought and feeling. SYDAites are not allowed to move BEYOND THOSE BOUNDARIES. If they do so, they are subject to "spiritual" and "social" penalties. SEE PART 2 Subj: SYDA boundary control 2/3 Date: 96-03-25 08:20:12 EST From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 3 This very AOL board exemplifies something at the boundary of SYDAites' allowable mental space. It is a boundary that some disciples feel compelled to monitor. In this folder, cult members see statements about SYDA by non-cult members. Keep in mind that AOL has set up two message boards: The one titled "SUPPORTERS" is where cult members can speak amongst themselves. The one titled "ETHICS" (this folder) is where ethical problems in SYDA can be openly addressed. Since it has been founded, the attention of cult members has been focused on the ETHICS folder. This folder is (by all reports) also monitored by the SYDA organization. Why the focus on the ETHICS folder? Because it is on the ETHICS folder that SYDA's cult boundary is not being observed. Ideas are presented here that challenge SYDA's brainwashing, that challenge SYDA's "cult perimeter." The need of SYDA and SYDAites to focus on the ETHICS folder indicates that boundary control is a habitual mindset in the cult; it takes precedence even over communicating with other cult "supporters" about insider matters (on the supporters folder). It is vital for cult members to feel that competing outside information has been quashed. Behind the disciples' impulse to exert boundary control are furtive anxieties about the integrity of SYDA doctrine itself. Cult members, on some level, are aware that some or all of the problems raised by outsiders have substance. To acknowledge this information would be tantamount to doubting their cult-constructed sense of self. Rather than shift paradigms, the cult members discredit outside critics, and make efforts to deepen their identification with the cult's group identity. In other words, they focus on boundary control. Boundary control helps cult members keep their own critical faculties repressed. SEE PART 3 Subj: SYDA boundary control 3/3 Date: 96-03-25 08:28:52 EST From: Howie Sm PART 3 OF 3 A separate ETHICS folder was formed because the SYDAites demanded a controlled area for only "positive" statements about SYDA. But since the SYDAites were given a "positive" (SUPPORTERS) folder, they have scarcely used it. This indicates that their demand for a controlled AOL area was in part a reactive strategy that they hoped would somehow curb the flow of information at the cult boundary. But now that AOL has acceded to their demand, SYDAites must turn to other methods of boundary control. Clearly the cultists will continue to be focused on this ETHICS folder, since their requirements for complete boundary control have not yet been met. One of the most revealing incidents of boundary control was when SYDA's former guru was ousted. Before he was thrown out of SYDA, there had been a full-scale campaign spanning a period of years which was aimed at brainwashing the disciples into viewing Nityananda as a "perfect being." After he was ousted, SYDA had to work hard to retrain their disciples into viewing Nityananda, their former "guru," as a scoundrel. SYDA's success in molding their disciple's loyalties in this incident is a tribute to the efficacy of SYDA's boundary control measures. Nityananda is presently known as Nityananda Mahamandaleshwar Saraswati. This title signifies that he is a leader of the monks in the Saraswati order. The Saraswati order includes his sister, Gurumayi Chidvilasananda. Since the Saraswati order is today allied with Nityananda (the person SYDA has campaigned to villainize), SYDA no longer flaunts their official ties with the Saraswati order, as they did since Muktananda's time. Nowadays, SYDA uses generic Brahmin priests rather than Saraswati monks to officiate over SYDA ceremonies. Subj: Boundaries Date: 96-03-25 21:41:08 EST From: Dissent222 Dear Howie - I especially enjoyed your posts about boundary controls. Few people are aware of the extent of the training that goes on at the ashram which is dedicated to creating party line answers to controversial questions. Gurumayi puts the word out in staff darshans, and then the staff goes to work, trickling down the party line until all the devotees get it in their centers, and of course in their videos, publications and correspondence courses. This isn't just normal policy being disseminated. So many people who have been to these indoctrination sessions get humiliated or thrown out if they ask the wrong question, or deviate. When these sessions occur in the ashram, usually Sw. Shantananda is assigned to represent Gurumayi. He tries to snarl at and intimidate people so they know that doubts or questions they may have, say about why Baba had sex with all those young girls, will not be tolerated, and they can just get up and leave the ashram now if they have a problem with that. But others have said this before - Shridevi will hopefully share more about this process as it ocurred in Ann Arbor during the Nityananda bashing exploits there. Anyway, one thing that strikes me about SYDA's boundary vigilantes is that they themselves are all such incredible violators of boundaries. They defend SYDA from reality with the most rigid boundaries. Within the SYDA community, though, the gurus and Afif know no boundaries, whatsoever. They consider everyone to be their property, and to have no right to privacy or independence. There's the room inspections, the hidden microphones and tv cameras, the eavesdropping and reporting to Gurumayi, Gurumayi assigning devotees to ashram therapists who then tell Guruamyi all about the patients - you know, the list of violations of boundaries is endless. The ashram is the ultimate incest family - internal violations are rampant, while isolation and fear keep members from telling the truth and breaking the secrets to the outside world. Keeping track of who knows what secrets in that ashram is harder than, oh, I don't know, listening to Gurumayi sing? Even now, members who have left, like myself, need to remain anonymous here on this board. I truly look forward to the day when the SYDA boundaries break, and the world really knows what goes on there, and I and others won't have to hide our identities any more. Subj: Re:Boundaries Date: 96-03-26 02:13:29 EST From: JEUDEVIVRE Hello everyone, i've watched these message boards for months now and have even communicated to some of it's members under different names via E-mail. A constant i've noticed with the supporters of SY is the kneejerk reversion to ad-hominem attacks. This bespeaks of how soaked SYDA's version of Yoga is with the ideology of modern psychology wherein any form of dissent is registered as a "phobia". The merits of the criticisms on these boards are not engaged at all but rather presupposed to indicate an unconsious drive towards resentiment, e..g, "whining,".....It reminds me of some of the characters in Plato's Gorgias, in which, upon losing an argument, a kind of petty personality issue was brought to the fore, no doubt to obscure the real issues under a cloud of non-relevance. As to you Howie, Dissent, Shree, et al, I admire your coolness, calmness, and humor. Unlike Narada, I believe there are plenty who read these boards and have been persuaded to use their god-given mind for it's god-given purpose. Cordially, Zardoz in the ashram (if you've seen that acid-trip movie you'll know my situation and laugh). Subj: SYDA staff, coached responses Date: 96-03-26 08:45:09 EST From: Howie Sm Dear jeudevivre, Zardoz in the ashram--ROTFL! Thanks for the good word. You mentioned the SYDA defenders use of ad hominem attacks to rebut reports regarding SYDA's abuses of power. What is conspicuous about this debate is its asymmetry. SYDA critics don't obsess about appearing perfect or free from human foibles. This seems right to me: we really should all just speak honestly and directly--with human individuality and grit included. SYDA disciples on the other hand need to maintain a patina of perfected spirituality. The need to appear "spiritually purified" severely limits what they can say. Consequently, they end up sounding like coached clones. Dissent mentioned the staff meetings where party line is taught so as to be trickled down to the rank-and-file discipleship; this lines up exactly with the AMWAYish, scripted sound of disciple's testimonials. This asymmetry of expressive means gives the critics an obvious advantage in discussion. The critics say what they think, and describe the abuses they have observed. The SYDA supporters, in response, can only beat around the bush; liberally employing platitudes, quotations, and other packaged concepts which are too general to be relevant to any specific discussion. Feeling the frustration of this asymmetry, some disciples jump away from party line and lash out with ad hominem attack. Party line--ad hominem--party line--ad hominem. It's the vicious cycle that disciples get into when they try to express themselves during their boundary control exercises. The SYDA disciples have got to start speaking with their own voices if they ever are going to escape this vicious cycle. Saccharine cult parrot, or rampaging offended zealot? Surely these are not the only two modes of discourse available to the SYDA disciple. I invite the SYDA disciples to speak with their own voices. SYDA disciples, use it or lose it. Subj: Trip Date: 96-03-26 16:42:34 EST From: BVena I had been in a quandary for a long time about whether or not to introduce two friends to Siddha Yoga and GM. They both intuit that I seem to have gotten a lot from SY. Both of them also have HIV but are asymptomatic and will certainly remain so for years to come. I have been warned by two loyal devotees not to tell any of the managers as required in the forms one has to fill out these days. One went so far as to tell me to wait to see what the "energy" was before embarking on said trip. So I've decided not to subject my friends to this fickle "energy". In fact, the "energy", I believe, knows what it can do! If it ain't love it ain't GOD and this ain't love! As someone pointed out, "if there's a wall around it, it can't be all that". Agreed! Subj: Re:just a thought.... Date: 96-03-26 12:18:32 EST From: Shridevi Lately I am trying to find the balance between the objective stuff going on and my subjective response to it. On the subjective side, I'm trying to find compassion for something in myself so that I don't react to it so much when I see it in others. And I'm trying to take basic responsibility for what I can and cannot handle right now. If I am reactive, then that is really understandable, but I can still (as they say) "titrate" the input. I realize that I spend far more time than is intuitively/viscerally/emotionally comfortable with people still in SY. It is really upsetting for me and I have to give up my idealism that humans can work it out no matter what. I see that partly why it is upsetting is that I still buy into, on some level, the idea that my anger is not OK. And I try to repress it around them and be polite. And the other part of it is that there is a real, objective, studied dynamic which goes on when I'm with these people. And that necessarily I am going to be made to hold their shadow material, feel their shadow feelings, and be dismissed in their minds. All while I am trying to establish some real human connection. geez! It reminds me of Kate Millet - The Looney Bin Trip. Have you read that? Her family has her involuntarily incarcerated at a mental institution for a couple of weeks and she leaves with a manic depressive diagnosis which she spends years trying to live down. Of course, the experience of being imprisoned by her family and shrinks is so traumatic that she does have all these feelings that only further implicate her. So if she gets angry, she is suspect. If she gets creative, she is suspect as being manic. If she has an unconventional lifestyle and strong political feelings she is suspect. And all this makes her depressed, which only confirms that indeed she is crazy. She is on lithium for many years and finally has the courage to go off and write a book. It is really beautiful and really sad. I see this dynamic in relation to Siddha Yoga. As a woman and a feminist, it pushes those "patriarchy" buttons all the way. I see that the big brother metal plate in the brain is so familiar - control people. I see how the "transcend everything, what do your feelings matter, the world is as you see it", is nothing more than a wanna be shrink or priest lording it over a person whose feelings and whose truth is threatening to him. So the balance between what is "out there" and what is "inside me" is very interesting, because the "inside me" project can be so misused. And yet it is true and important work. sigh I am writing my 'manifesto' for the other board. inspired by my time with a sy teacher who shall remain nameless. I want to speak. I want to speak, not be silenced, and like, cough up the whole hairball and be done with it. And if they attack me - swaha. And if I lose friends - swaha. At least my body will not be contorted around the throttling of my voice. Remember those roaring kriyas people used to have in Baba's day? Maybe they still do. There would be a room full of roaring screaming hissing people. What a great release! I'm rambling. Thanks for being here, solo and everybody. shree. Subj: Nityananda gives shaktipat Date: 96-03-27 07:52:34 EST From: Howie Sm Jeudevivre and AOL readers: What is ironic about Jason charging that critics take "stock and give a hoot" about AOL is, I (one of the critics) started posting messages thinking as he does. I posted nonchalantly, as if this were a chat area like other areas in AOL. I was slow to learn that SYDA folk didn't see this as a chat area at all, but as the site of a holy war. Simple statements that fit the AOL forum perfectly--statements such as "Nityananda is still giving today what people report to be full-fledged shaktipat"--sent SYDAites into apoplectic shock. You would think that any SYDA person would find these reports to be fascinating, as something that would inspire lively dialogue. But no way--they came back with words such as "lies, evilness, anger, delusion, fallen yogi, hate." I still think it is interesting that all kinds of people can give what SYDAites would term "shaktipat," but, well, oh well. Contrary to what Jason says, SYDA does "take stock and give a hoot" about the AOL folders: In a restraining order action filed by SYDA against someone who was posting on AOL, that person's activities on AOL were mentioned with, as I recall, wording that implied SYDA would have liked to silence his online posting but were aware that they could not. One can infer that SYDA does "take stock and give a hoot" about the AOL folders from the fact that SYDA allegedly compiled lists of disciples who visited competing gurus. If SYDA is that thin-skinned, they sure are going to take note of insiders posting reports of incriminating events on a major public bulletin board service! Finally, I've received a good amount of mail from lurkers who take what's written online seriously. Frankly, my original perception of this board as a chat area like others on AOL was wrong. These folders are one of the few sites in which frank discussion of SYDA is possible. Subj: Guru maharaj ji Date: 96-03-27 08:47:09 EST From: Howie Sm Unlimited says <<>> ex-Divine Light Mission folk (Guru Maharaji), dive right in and join the discussion here! The issues will be the same, and relevant to the SYDA ethics folder. Your perspective would open things up. The mind-stopping techniques in both groups are similar. Maybe someone could say more about that. Subj: Re:Guru maharaj ji Date: 96-03-27 11:59:42 EST From: Shridevi I second that notion. I've been reading a great book by Peter Marin entitled: Freedom and its Discontents. In it he publishes a letter from his friend who was leaving divine light. Word for word it could have been Siddha Yoga. Marin also talks about the Trungpa group in Boulder. He finds that group's form of epistemological homogenization interesting because it seems to be much more sophisticated and innocuous than your average crazy cult. For a long time, SY seemed to have a public reputation that set it apart from most other spiritual 'trips.' I think that public image is changing. Here's a quote from the book. <> I am thoroughly enjoying this. shree Subj: Re:just a thought.... Date: 96-03-27 07:54:08 EST From: Howie Sm Shridevi has (as she always does) seen through to the heart of the situation for many people both inside and outside of SYDA. If one acts like themselves and speaks freely with SYDA disciples, one becomes estranged and sometimes villainized (Kate Millet). But to play along to keep the peace is no good either (Stepford wives). This can be a real problem for those who have formed many friendships with SYDA people. Dissent is right on with the incest analogy. It's the "pretend it's perfect for the sake of the family" dynamic. Shridevi, if anyone can put all this into context it is you! We're all waiting to hear more of your thoughts. Thanks. Subj: Re:Analysis of Critic CHC Date: 96-03-27 23:22:50 EST From: ENOMNI Hi, everyone, i'm another previously quiet listener. I've noticed some incredibly thoughtful, humorous, and at times passionate writings by the numerous individuals on this board. Through Shreedevi's informative and tragic stories and humor that has survived, to HowieSm's articulate and insightful observations of Cultish behaviour, to Dissent's impassioned yet rational diatribes, as well as Jeudevivre's analysis of a SY supporters response. I want to thank all of you and all the others here. I wish to encourage your continuation, so long as you feel so compelled, to continue your communications here. I know for a fact that many have read this and have been influenced. I finally feel comfortable enough to emerge and suggest a few observations. I too have noticed, however, that SY supporters are less prone to the rational structures necessary for dialogue. Let me give an example and try at such an analysis: CRITIC CHC wrote the following: <<"allegedly compiled" - you don't even know to be true, what is. It seems to me, you have proven Jason to be correct, not the other way around.>> Critique: the problem with the statement is that it fails to be explicit and while criticizing the veracity of statetments, in itself it fails to disprove the veracity of the same allegations. << Sorry, even I was wondering if any of you might be "real". >> Critique: First, the use of the word "sorry" in this context is clearly disingenuous. As for whether w'ere real, we are as real as you can get to know someone through a computer. I'm quite confident we are also amidst you in the flesh,.....thinking these thoughts quietly. << All you do is attack, mame, and display self righteousness.>> Critique: The fallacy here is in it's absolutism. "All you do,"....If only the world was so simply. If only I myself knew how to focus so resolutely. In addition, I suspect what is more than likely confidence in our assertions is mistaken for the displaying of "self righteousness." << I, as many others have, will no longer bother to come to this board.>> Critique: This, in Sy's own adopted training sessions, calls this "majority pressure." The statement seeks to beg the question, "what others?", and, oh, perhaps we were offensive, or perhaps we said something offensive. In reality, it is the remark that emerges upon failed dialogue--failed attempts at dialogue. How can you dialogue with someone you believe is fallen. How can a fundamentalist talk to someone they believe is controlled by satan. << You truly have become that which you fear the most.>> Critique: When all is lost, use the failing strategy, assume upon the contents of your opponents mind. You do not know what we fear, so you assume. You are communicating through a screen to individuals spread throughout the country. The topic is of a limited subject and still you resort to absolutisms. It is more than likely that the problems you percieve with the visitors to this board are your own contructions. I advise a healthy dose of self-examination, in the good old-fashioned WESTERN Socratic-Cartesian methodologies. << I am so sorry for you.>> Critique: Again, disingenuity. Feeling sorry usually accompanies the moral impulse to help and yet your language proffers nothing but the vitriolic. Summation: How can one dialouge with another individual one is convinced from the start is wrong? How can one dialogue with someone who has been demonized by various classifications having arisen in a spiritual system, i.e., "fallen from grace"? Is dialouge what is sought with SY supporters? My sense is NO, for why? Because they've been taught they will get infected. They seek either the instanteous conversion to their system (little effort that way), or the clear definition of their opponents as "evil", (little effort needed to reject that which is clearly qualified for rejection). Failing with us in an instanteous conversion, they seek the alternative. Sincerely, ENOMNI Subj: altered states & the SYDA cult Date: 96-03-28 10:21:57 EST From: Howie Sm One shortcoming, in my view, of literature about cult dynamics is that it does not sufficiently acknowledge the significant role that altered states ("experiences") play in recruitment. Some cult members who read information about cults get the impression that "my cult isn't like those others" because what they read emphasizes elements of mind control, etc., and pays little attention to altered states. Since the cult member has foremost in their mind their "experiences," they don't see the connection of their own cult to what they read about cults. This problem besieged early drug information programs. A teenager experimenting with drugs would see not-so-good drug information material and conclude "this information has nothing to do with what I experience on drugs." In my opinion, the descriptions one sees of altered states--as a product of hypnosis, or as states of suggestibility--is inadequate. From Pentacostals to Santeria to Siddha Yoga to Aum Shinrikyo people are having big experiences. As it stands, the only context they are given is whatever their religious group provides. This is a grave problem if the religous group is a destructive cult. If one expects people to wean themselves from destructive cults like SYDA, serious attention has to be paid to giving cult members a healthy way to contextualize the experiential aspect of their lives. Until this is done, people who have "spiritual" experiences will tend to keep backsliding into cults, or cult-like scenarios. Cult informational literature should not be required to explain the basis of human experience, of course. On the other hand, if it better acknowledged the magnitude and significance of unusual affective phenomena, it would seem more credible to cult members, and cause them to take the other parts of the message about mind control, etc., more seriously. Subj: Re:altered states & the SYDA . Date: 96-03-28 11:05:59 EST From: Shridevi This was one of the things that I was thinking about when I wrote my thesis. For myself, who remained on the fence for several years, these were the questions that kept me tied to sy despite deep misgivings. I decided there were a few categories of relationship to this 'spiritual community' question: believers, non-believers, psycho-spiritual harmonizers, and lastly, heretics. Actually, it was just an epistemological game - the harmonizers are these people like ken wilbur and stuff who try to make sense out of the discrepancies between different world views, by erecting (sic) these charts and time lines and stuff. And the heretics, i imagined, just became more and more radical - worked the 'spiritual' and the 'social/political' in a very human way. spirituality is revolutionary, as far as i'm concerned. just some musings, shree. Subj: Re:altered states & the SYDA . Date: 96-03-28 20:00:21 EST From: Shridevi Previous post had some early morning brain fog to it. The rest of the day has been equally fogged in: I want to share a part of an e-mail I just sent: <> it made me VERY happy. ;) i'd also like to add that learning about healthy boundaries, learning to set my limits, learning to "take care of myself" has been equally important. yes shree, you keep bringing up responsibility and i so agree. for me, i am trying to become more aware so that i can take the responsibility for taking care of myself and take the responsibility for my actions. a work in progress i assure you, i won't admit how 'not far' along i am...... k? this thing about friendship has stirred many thoughts for me too. as a very brief summary i would say that i can't see myself hanging out with a fundamentalist christian much more than i could see myself hanging with a siddha yogi. letting go of friendships that are no longer nurturing or supportive etc. has been another major thing that has been going on for me over the last few years. it's a long subject eh? my time is most precious to me, i am becoming very fussy about how i want to spend it and with whom. for me one breakthru came from owning how much i would prefer to be alone than hanging with certain people, and facing how i really felt about being with certain people. to some degree as my honesty with myself incresased my number of friendships decreased. but as they say, nature abhors a vaccuum, and i have not felt any lack of companionship despite my letting go of so many. this is one of the ways in which i am learning to take care of myself. and new friends keep appearing that are much more suited to my present state of "health". oh shree (you do know that means beautiful right?) life has been treating me very well. i got a pleasant surprise of yet another deep healing. an old friend comes to town showering me with the sweetest love. there's just nothing much more healing than sharing love with another, eh? intimacy is definitely part of my path, my teacher *and* my reward. can be so freightening and can be so liberating. ah love, often the bottom line.... with much love to you all, diana p.s. when i read my writing i sound so frigging new agey. keep saying healing this and healing that. but, what can i say, that's what's happening for me now..... Subj: Spring is here - 1 Date: 96-03-29 04:50:56 EST Subj: Spring is here - 1 Date: 96-03-29 04:50:56 EST From: Dissent222 Some of us ex-syda's have been e-mailing personal recovery stuff to each other, beautiful thoughts, really; but maybe we do it privately because we don't want to be assaulted by the syda clones while we're being vulnerable. So solo and yogi j, shri, howie, mdsnman, etc., I'll take a risk here and talk about my recovery a little. When I first moved out of the ashram, it wasn't my choice. GM told me to, and I was devastated. I had failed. I had tried so hard, worked night and day for so many years, only wanted to please her, but I was a failure. She told me so. So I had no money, no possessions, no IRA account, no 401(k), no profit sharing plan, no dental insurance, you know, but I left the ashram, got a job and a place to live, and tried to start over. I was not young at the time. For a month or so, I cried every time I was alone for more than a minute. If I had to make any kind of decision, I panicked. I was working for a devotee who was illegally exploiting immigrant workers he hired, paying me much less than I was worth and skimming huge amounts of cash off the daily take at his business to pay for his $10,000 a month American Express bills and his young children's therapy and his wife's rehab bills and his extramarital affairs. Of course, this man was one of the big SCs in the ashram. SC stands for Special Consideration, a hotel term, and is the replacement term for VIP. If a person is wealthy, they are an SC in the ashram. And if you ask GM why there are SC's, the answer is there aren't any. And you can be sure you aren't one. I was doing a lot of therapy and group work. I was regaining my self esteem, slowly. I dealt with very old, lifelong pain and sorrow, and I started to heal. I'm more analytic, I guess, and that's what moved me and changed me -- working with a therapist who was empathic (unlike GM who is a narcissistic egomaniac and clueless about real empathy). That helped me finally start accepting myself. Syda talked about "love your self", but was actually saying "you are nothing, the guru is everything, and don't you forget it." In so many ways, that's what GM had said to me again and again. "Your talents, your personality, your achiements, your kindness to people and their fondness for you -- none of that matters - it's all just your rotten ego. Only I, GM, only I matter." She said it to me in 108,000 ways. I was still devoted to GM, but a funny thing started happening a few months after I moved out of the ashram. I'd go to a syda program at the center or the ashram, and I'd be bored and disgusted. The talks were canned, phony, trivial; there was so much advertising and so many appeals to give money; people in Amrit had nothing to talk about except what was GM doing and where was she and what had she said to so and so. You know why it was so boring? I was getting a life. GM was slipping off her pedestal and I was removing her foot from off my back and starting to stand up. Then I met my wife and we fell in love. Real healing really began. Stopped going to the ashram except once every now and then. Still thought I was a devotee. Got myself out of the devotee's trashy business and into graduate school. Then the New Yorker article. The real healing continued and continues. SEE PART 2 Subj: Spring is here 2 Date: 96-03-29 04:52:38 EST From: Dissent222 cont'd from PART 1 Let's see, here's what Judith Herman in "Trauma and Recovry" describes as the stages of recovery from trauma: "First, the physiological symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder have been brought within manageable limits. Second, the person is able to bear the feelings associated with traumatic memories. Third, the person has authority over her memories: she can elect both to remember the trauma and to put memory aside. Fourth, the memory of the traumatic event is a coherent narrative, linked with felling. Fifth, the person's damaged self-esteem has been restored. Sixth, the person's important relationships have been reestablished. Seventh, and finally, the person has reconstructed a coherent sytem of meaning and belief that encompasses the story of the trauma." I'm still working my way through these stages - they're not that linear, I find. But I've said it before, I'll say it again. Solo, you said it in your private e-mail. It's about loving people, not about loving "the absolute" or loving the "maha-mondo-maniac" who calls herself a siddha. Loving your spouse, your lover, your friend, your family members, your work, your community - loving real people is where it is at. It's much harder to love one person for real than it is to go to the ashram and walk around with tears in your eyes because you love everyone so much. You can love everyone in that ashram with all your heart, and be the most pious and obedient devotee on the planet, and if GM is angry with you, everyone there will shun you like you're a dead skunk in the middle of the road, stinkin' to high heaven. So anyway, y'all, it's great having you on board to share this stuff with. Some people have been worrying about whether I have a life. It's a wonderful life, actually - a lot going on, especially at the moment. Don't want to give too much away, though -- not yet, anyway. Spring is here! AND I DON'T HAVE TO BORE THE STUFF OUT OF MYSELF SITTING ON THAT PAINFUL MANDAP FLOOR LISTENING TO THE PAINFUL, OFF-KEY HOWLING OF THE LADY IN RED! Now THAT's a blessing. I'm FREE! Gread God Almighty, free at last! Subj: Re:altered states & the SYDA . Date: 96-03-29 13:03:41 EST From: BVena Wednesday was the first time I told my therapist that I had been in a cult. It's been years since I've been to an ashram but only now am I able to believe that all those years in SY were as awful as I now know they were. What finally stopped me from going to the ashram was the practice of publicly humiliating people in programs. Something about ear pieces in the swamis ear. I heard this was going on and felt guilty that I couldn't subject myself to this type of "sadhana". I would like to know what anyone has seen in this respect. Why do I still feel my soul is in danger for speaking of this? I could just scream! On another note: I just read somebodies post about mystic experience/ psychological relativity/ what is REAL. I think both. I too agree that we have all had "experiences" in SY. It is also true that we tend to think that said experiences are the property SY. This happens in all cults and most religions. That idea is promoted by those who profit from spiritual business either financially or psychologically, the latter being the more tragic. I have noticed that as I slowly break down the walls of the SY cage I've been living in for sooooo long that I am once again having "experiences". SO...they don't belong to anyone but me. After all "I" had them! Oh is my "ego" showing!!!!! Anyway, I am becoming more free than I have been in years! I can paint again. Write again. Be happy again. I can cease to feel inadequate. Also I don't have to fit in with a bunch of crazies anymore. I cant believe what I put up with much less accepted as truth. This process is all very Zen I think .... Think I'll start my on cult. Girls doing arati in camouflage saris, Bright trays if lights you can buy in my shop, Don't read the news papers full of inquiries, A lovely red outfit I look like a fop. Raj Subj: a dream Date: 96-03-29 15:13:24 EST From: Soloflyr11 wow dissent, i just logged your post for reading later and am now anxious to get offline to read it. from a very quick skim, it looks fantastic!!! i do feel pretty vulnerable for putting out some of the stuff that i share in email, but safe enough at least to tell the following dream. (actually, i haven't minded when others have shared parts of my email) the night before last i had a dream of gurumayi. it began with a sense of confusion and then i found myself in a room where gurumayi was walking around being "nasty" to people (she was wearing thick black hornrimmed glasses). i observed her behavior for a little while and then turned to a woman and told her that gurumayi was horrible or something (can't remember my words). the woman burst into tears, she became very much like a child crying. it was a very vivid dream. this whole issue of what makes one able or ready to leave is very interesting to me. Subj: Re:Spring is here - 1 Date: 96-03-29 16:48:32 EST From: BVena Dear D Fudged the first one, I'll try again. I too worked for a SY VIP or SC as you call it. A couple actually. This was after I had destroyed my career as a fashion designer so that I could be on staff in South Fallsburg. Funny, none of the people who demanded that I quit my job in mid season and go up there are in SY anymore........Anyway, the couple I worked for were the nastiest people I've ever met. If you've ever been in the fashion industry you know that's saying something. There I was cleaning their toilets can you believe, and the wife tells me I should look at this as seva and do the work accordingly. Have you ever heard such hubris?!!! The rub is I DID IT! My mind was gone. Any normal person would have given the fat hog a swirly in her own toilet. It was years before I could stand on my own two feet again. I think this a common thread in SY as in other cults. The posts I have come across on AOL have been a great way for me to look at what happened an see for the first time the truth of it all. I don't think I would have a chance of cleaning this out of my life were it not for you guys. Oh and get this...I meditated today and went BLISS all by my little self! "With great respect and love....." Raj Subj: SYDA credential touters Date: 96-03-30 07:22:26 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Here is a letter (with personal names deleted) that might interest you. What perpetuates the SYDA charade? ****, like ****, like ****, like so many ex-SYDAites gone pro, are too invested in SYDAesque spiritual roles to pull out. They know about SYDA's dirt, but can't afford to blow the whistle because they list Swami Muktananda as one of their credentials. (Some actually list Gurumayi and the present-day SYDA as a credential?!) There is no way to rationalize away the total phoniness of people in the healing, spiritual, and therapeutic businesses who won't blow the whistle because their own livelihood is tied up with maintaining the big illusion of "the great and noble tradition from which they have descended." They are as tacky and small-time as those really phony crystal-ball gypsy-wannabes that have police records as short-con artists. These phonies drag the cultures they purportedly represent through the dirt. I consider many "meditation teachers, healers, etc." to be short-con artists because they form--either explicitly through endorsement or implicitly through silence-- a conspiratorial con network whose intent is to maintain the general illusion of the propriety of entities they know to be fradulent. Conspiracies of silence among short-con artists, crooked cops, and "the spiritual" can be described in the same breath. SYDA's legacy is most horrifying when it claims people who have intelligence, skills, and leadership qualities. I can't imagine a more negative role model than people like Mr. X (an unnamed former SYDA swami, not Nityananda). And yet, superficially, there is so much about him to like, which is why he can still attract "devotees." Still, if the thrust of someone's life is to use their skills to perpetuate a hurtful pile of TOS, what can we say? Is Mr. X a victim who now needs to victimize others in order to protect his delusions, delusions in which he has been invested most of his adult life? Subj: The Beauregard Gita Date: 96-04-01 06:10:41 EST From: Howie Sm *************A S K A B B E Y A N A N D A! ************* Dear Abbeyananda, Because I cannot pronounce the Beauregard Gita correctly, I am getting dirty looks in the hall. SYDA stooges are whispering that I am a code 2. I want to sign up for pronounciation lessons, but the Registration Desk is closed. What to do? Signed, a-to-ksha-ananada P. S. And what is the final attainment like? *********** Dear a-to-ksha-ananda, Take these three steps to get off the code 2 list. 1. Put whatever money you have into the donation box. 2. Do the Heil Hitler gesture recursively with exaggerated rigidity and fervor while mispronouncing the Beauregard Gita at the top of your lungs (this will insure that you will be noticed by the right people in the group). 3. Return to step 1. Signed, Abbeyananda - P. S. General Pierre Beauregard, our param-guru, after a remarkable military career, managed the Louisiana State Lottery in his last years. The lotto experience was the final attainment. Subj: Does Gurumayi rent Hee Haw? Date: 96-04-01 06:43:59 EST From: Howie Sm Dear SYDA insiders, Those with inside knowledge of SYDA, please keep telling in detail what the lifestyle is like. The debriefings, "bustings," staff protocols, Paramus New Jersey, what videos and TV shows the guru watches, the pecking order dynamics, etc. You may think that people know about these things, but they don't. Let the world know the details about inside ashram reality. AOL readers, see the Hinduism library for articles on the controversial SYDA Foundation organization (Gurumayi Chidvilasananda's group). Subj: SYDA's financial dealings Date: 96-04-01 06:55:30 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, What is the chain of custody for the bags of money collected at SYDA, the monies paid out by suckers to SYDA for programs and for "overseas charities"? And how, legally speaking, is the Swiss bank accounts and private swimming pool justified? Does anyone know any specifics about these and other financial matters? And is anyone officially looking into this? Subj: SYDA's Heil Hitler arm gesture Date: 96-04-01 07:08:46 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, In recent years, in SYDA the disciples simultaneously make the "Heil Hitler" gesture with their arms at accented moments while chanting in groups. The "Heil Hitler" gesture is made in the direction of their "living guru," who sits in an elevated seat in the front-center of a large meditation hall. In the guru's absence, the Heil Hitler gesture is made in the direction of the picture of a guru. The full ramifications of all this "Heil Hitlering" have not been sufficiently discussed. And the Heil Hitler gesture is not the only automaton-like group behavior seen in SYDA. We really need to reopen the Heil Hitler thread. Subj: Are you on SYDA's blacklist? Date: 96-04-01 07:34:31 EST From: Howie Sm Dear code 12 friends, I'm throwing a party, and all "SYDA code 12" members are cordially invited. Tie and tails, formals. No one will be admitted unless they are on "the list." Others who are not on the "SYDA code 12" blacklist, you will just have to talk amongst yourselves elsewhere. Oh--time for my polo lesson. Cheerio. Subj: Initiations via boob-tube Date: 96-04-01 07:45:59 EST From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, For a price, SYDA initiates mobs of people via television set. I'm not making this up--look in their product catalog. This is commodification of religion at an extreme. Simony with a infommercial twist. Imagine this testimonial: "I received spiritual initiation from a 29" Zenith color set (with PIP feature, remote included)." If you ask "how could you go for this?", the answer might be: "it wasn't the TV that really initiated me. It was the guru's will, the guru's thought." If you ask "does your guru know your name, anything about you?" The answer might be: "not the physical guru--but that doesn't matter. The inner guru does." If you ask "well, then, whose name do you put down when you write your check?" But you won't ask that, because we all know the answer. Subj: Re: more thoughts Date: 96-04-01 20:08:00 EST From: Howie Sm To: Yogi J CC: Soloflyr11, Shridevi, Dissent222, MDSNMAN Dear Yogi J, Thanks for the message. I hope your April fool's day was filled with laughter and fun. (Mine was--my sides are hurting from all the jokes that have been flying around here!) You say <<>> I didn't read those recent posts. But the phrase Sociopathic Spirituality does ring a bell. I remember a Hare Krishna mother who had no emotional response to the tragic premature death of her child. She said "it was her karma" with an expressionless, "spiritual" face. This is a true story. I felt a chill, maybe like the chill you felt upon reading Narada and Larry (Larrada for short). What makes my story really disturbing is: I don't think the Hare Krishna mother was born a sociopath. She must have learned how to become a sociopath through her "spiritual efforts." Yet, clearly, she entered the Hare Krishna movement with idealistic hopes for herself and her child! What on earth happened in the cult to this once loving mother? That is why people should have information about what they are getting involved in. They should have a clear picture of what senior disciples, gurus, swamis, and business affiliates are doing and thinking. Informed people make better decisions. When you put together the "it was his/her karma" with "trust your experiences," you have a two-fortune-cookie philosophy that can under certain conditions create dangerous monsters. At best, it creates lobotomized navel-gazers--who wouldn't drop their mala beads to save a child from a flood. Got to go--I'm continuing my research on the exploits of the great General Beauregard. BVena's cult is the new craze; I don't want to be left behind on the earth plane! Subj: Spawn of Spam, by HowieSm Date: 96-04-01 08:41:28 EST From: Howie Sm GURUMAYI, SPAWN OF SPAM (In dactylic tetrameter.) By Howie Sm. A charging mad zombie just stepped on my corn, These darn dancing saptahs are worse than Cape Horn. A shrieking red banshee that sings like a claxon, Is sporting a mug just like La-toy-a Jackson. She's barking commands like a Bloomingdale's shopper, and only Afif has the power to stop her. But he's on the lam since the TOS hit the fan, So she mugs the cam'ra without a clear plan, And everyone sane is CODE 12 and been banned, I'd say Gu-ru-may-i is Queen Spawn of Spam. Subj: Spam et al. Date: 96-04-01 17:30:45 EST From: ENOMNI Thank you Howie for your most entertaining of posts. I was trying to create a thought form regarding an April Fools prank. Something to do with the dawning of common sense in SY......But alas, my yogic skills have failed me, and my power to virkapalize has been diluted through too much loss of ojas. Albeit, I am a fertility God. Call me Amen-Ra. Cordially, E. Subj: Re:Spawn of Spam, by HowieSm Date: 96-04-02 22:13:39 EST From: ENOMNI I hope you appreciating souls won't mind my bargin into this folder with a question more applicable to the Ethics folder, but the Ethics folder has been temporarily taken over......Anyways, heres my Question: A young man I know, let us call him 'M' has been the subject of Gurumayi's insistence that he teach meditation, i.e., Siddha Meditation Courses. He has thus assumed this role for the last few years. Since I know this man's personal life, however, I know that he is involved with every drug under the sun, especially halluconigens on a regular basis. In addition, he is incredibly promiscuous. This is not to mention his drinking habits, which result in nights he cannot remember, and fistfights he can't recall the cause of. Oh yes, I almost forgot, he is incredibly wealthy and his family has given generously to the SY coffers, and this man is hustled up to the very front of the hall at the inception of every program with Gurumayi. As for me, I could care less on a moralistic level that he lives this way because I feel quite dettached to the ramifications on what this all may mean. However, that is not to say I'm not curious to know what you think: Question#1: does the vessel matter? Question#2: how is wealth a factor? Is it a factor? Question#3: what is the standard SY line on this kind of situation? Is it explained away as 'karma' or described under a situationalist ethic, e.g., "appropriate for the individual tho' not for all" Just curious, E. Subj: Meditation, medication Date: 96-04-03 08:41:22 EST From: Dissent222 Dear Enomni - I'm moving this one over to the debate folder, just so SYDA onlookers don't miss it. You write about your friend: "A young man I know, let us call him 'M' has been the subject of Gurumayi's insistence that he teach meditation, i.e., Siddha Meditation Courses. He has thus assumed this role for the last few years. Since I know this man's personal life, however, I know that he is involved with every drug under the sun, especially halluconigens on a regular basis. In addition, he is incredibly promiscuous. This is not to mention his drinking habits, which result in nights he cannot remember, and fistfights he can't recall the cause of. Oh yes, I almost forgot, he is incredibly wealthy and his family has given generously to the SY coffers, and this man is hustled up to the very front of the hall at the inception of every program with Gurumayi." Your questions about this fellow are as follows: "Question#1: does the vessel matter?" I think so. Ethics, morals, values, honesty - these things matter. Exploitation and deception matter. This young man is ideally suited to be one of Gurumayi's disciples - he's rich and amoral - exactly what GM likes in a man. "Question#2: how is wealth a factor? Is it a factor?" Money makes the syda yoga world go round. You can bet that GM is saving up for that rainy day when she gets booted out of this country for tax fraud and every other kind of fraud. "Question#3: what is the standard SY line on this kind of situation? Is it explained away as 'karma' or described under a situationalist ethic, e.g., "appropriate for the individual tho' not for all" The standard line is "Inscrutable and mysterious are the ways of a siddha. This young man may be a great saint in the making. Gurumayi sees things in us that others don't or that we don't ourselves. Other saints of old are famous for hanging out with prostitutes and debauching, and then becoming the holiest people on earth, you know, St. Francis, etc. Judge not lest you be judged." Etc. etc. ad nauseum. The bottom line is, the guy's got money and power and influence, which is oxygen to Gurumayi, the only things she lives for, since she can't feel anything or have a real relationship with anyone. Why don't you write to the person in charge of courses, Nada Clyne, or Catherine Parrish or whomever, and talk about this friend and his personal life and see what answers you get. Don't tell them I sent you. Subj: GM's nouveau riche complex Date: 96-04-03 10:15:58 EST From: Howie Sm Enomni says that Gurumayi chooses a violent, drunk, promiscuous, rich acidhead to teach spirituality for her. Since "rich" is one of this jnani's attainments, the question of "why him" is answered. His physical appearance and attire is an important second criteria, I would guess. Hypothesis: Paranoid Gurumayi tentatively bonds with people who give money since she privileges money as the most concrete form of devotion. The rich who give are the real devoted. Any subtler (i.e., non-monetary) forms of devotion elude her gross perception and cannot be "trusted." The moral to this story? The most class conscious are the low class. It would appear that Gurumayi has the low-class perception of a tacky, superficially class-conscious merchant. This view runs rampant in unregulated sections of India's economic infrastructure--it divides Indian society into those "subhumans who exist to be used and discarded" and those "whose attentions are to be coveted." Unscrupulous merchants (whether in India or elsewhere) can sport this nouveau riche tackiness. It's this sort of mindset that good education and a loving environment is supposed to dispel. She probably had neither. The bottom line is: she has no love or concern for devoted SYDA sevites, who exist only to be used and discarded with impunity. Question: Is there anyone out there who, in all honesty, hasn't noticed Gurumayi's nouveau riche, tacky, condescending, cheeseball worldview? Is it a case of sound marketing based on the principle of "like attracting like"? Of Gurumayi's tacky, nouveau riche mindset successfully attracting kindred spirits from the American New Age middle class and yuppie populations? Subj: leaving . . . part 1 of 8 Date: 96-04-04 06:51:05 EST From: Shridevi I started to write this sitting on the beach in Santa Barbara. Driving up the California coast - it is quite a time. My Saturn return coming up on Easter Sunday, watching a 20,000 year old comet blow through our skies . . . and the seven year process of leaving Siddha Yoga is coming to an end. Leaving Siddha Yoga. Who would ever have imagined. The ocean and sky in front of me, the mountains behind me, all of nature seems to be opening up like a great devi all around. Woah. To be alone with my God and my death. Or, how about, forget God. Just forget all that sort of thing. But how about death? I have been thinking about death a lot lately. How incredible that we expect there to be more incarnations where this one came from. What if we stopped and just appreciated that this moment is never going to happen again. And took away all the concepts that protect us from the raw reality of Being. Amazing. The way we love each other now is unique in all eternity. This makes my heart, the organ, have that swollen and fragrant feeling, you know the one I'm talking about. And that experience, you know, where everything becomes visible and audible as if you never had senses before. The highest highs born in the sweet womb of the ashram - they were, on some level, subtly contained by the metaphysic there - not the gross dogma, but the subtlest vanity of knowing - like a transparent gown. Know what I mean? The kaleidescope of things that I have learned being in Siddha Yoga and leaving it - I want to just say them. I want to just say them and then let it all BE. This is easier to do if I post in this folder - don't have to care what people might think - just want to speak my truth for myself. Subj: leaving . . . part 2 of 8 Date: 96-04-04 06:58:57 EST From: Shridevi So first of all, I decided not to post on the other folder entitled "Siddha Yoga / Ethics Debate." (((Which seems to be related to "Siddha Yoga: is it ethical?" Which seems to follow from accepting or not accepting certain negative realities about Siddha Yoga culture and deciding whether or not said realities are ethical. Or maybe, from another point of view, a debate about whether or not it is ethical/logical/spiritual or whatever to bother to bring up these negative realities in the first place.))) But I still feel "as if" I'm posting on that board - proximity and all - same audience basically. Given this environment - I want to kind of clarify where I am and am not coming from before I really get started with this stream of consciousness. Seven Points, it turns out. 1. I am not denying that there are positive experiences to be had in Siddha Yoga, or that there are good people in Siddha Yoga. 2. I am not denying that there are bad things that happen in Siddha Yoga - especially since I have experienced some of these things first hand. However, and this is important for me, I am not equating my decision to leave Siddha Yoga with the fact that I have been traumatized there. These events are not the central thing for me. I think I share them so that people who may wonder if "allegations" in general are true, can know that indeed I, for one, have experienced such things. 3. I do think it is important to share the specifics of what is going on beneath the facade of Siddha Yoga, to give informed consent, to balance the orthodox propaganda, to exercise free speech as well as to exercise freedom of religion (outsiders and insiders both.) I think this is important simply because it was important for me and for so many others that I know - that we just wanted to know the truth. We did not want to be lied to. And then . . . however, 4. Following from #3 - what interests me most is what we do with this information once we are confronted with it. What interests me most is not making an expose of Siddha Yoga. Anyone who wants to know specifics can hear way more stories than are needed to trigger the threshold of conscience. What interests me, personally, viscerally, intellectually, spiritually, is what human beings do in these kinds of situations. 5. I don't need to come to any metaphysical conclusion about all this. I am OK if there are questions that I don't have the answer to. 6. I do not agree with the theme that it is somehow not "yogic" or "spiritual" to care about the effects of SYDA abuses, to speak about the facts of SYDA politics any more than I agree with the idea that it is not "spiritual" to talk about bad weather or to care about people that are suffering for whatever reason in this world. 7. The dolphins. Following from number 6. As I sat here on the beach, (strange tense) - a school of dolphins, seven of them, swam by. I stopped writing to watch them do their thing - so close. Just outside the first break of the waves. Their bodies swim rhythmically and it reminds me of a kind of ocean kirtan. For me, and this is just personal, it does not seem separate from my so-called 'spirituality' to care about these oceans - to want to preserve the dolphins, their home - to recognize that there is an immorality in the structure of our society and in the kind of corporate greed which consistently choose to risk/damage the waters of the world etc etc etc. And at the same time I feel so small in relationship to all that . . . I say that because I have had these conversations lately which make me wonder if some people find it actually "unspiritual" to give a TOS about stuff like that. Subj: leaving . . . part 3 of 8 Date: 96-04-04 07:01:55 EST From: Shridevi Whew! Now that I've given myself the illusion of some "space" on/from the debate board . . . I sit here and think - who would have imagined leaving Siddha Yoga. I certainly never would have imagined. Even now, though I grew up in Siddha Yoga, I don't consider my leaving it to be some sort of natural "rebellion" against my family of origin or whatever. Actually, I still consider Shaivism to be a foundation in my life, if I have one. Its neat to look at your life and see how things come around. Things you would never expect. For instance, I think it is interesting that, when I was 10 or 11 I took the teacher training course with then Swami Abhayananda. And I can remember sitting upstairs in Turiya Mandir listening to a lecture by Malti - And wow - I never would have really thought how all our lives would unfold. What a trip. And I remember when I was leaving Ganeshpuri that time - my final darshan with Baba. Malti was telling Baba an experience I had shared as part of the "experience talk" homework in the course. I had this dream about two brahmin priests who wanted me to choose between Kashmir Shaivism and Vedanta. I had some answer for them about God being both transcendent and immanent or whatever. Baba thought that was cute, apparently. But I think about how the friction between those philosophies still plays in my mind. And how, for instance, I get really peeved at Ram Butler for saying things like "Who cares what Baba did. That is Shaivism." And I ask him - "what if it was your daughter on the table." And I kinda get this version of Shaivism that is able to transcend everything by making everything God - a curious twist of dry logic. I can understand it. But I can't understand it at the same time. Where does it come from? Reminds me of that dream. And I think about Ganeshpuri and how I am sad that I will never be able to go back and say goodbye to that place and to honor the time in my life that I spent there - and to say goodbye to the Baba I thought I knew. This may sound pathetic - but, like, I didn't know what was going on until after he died. I avoided Baba when I was in India towards the end of his life. But I loved him. And I would like to have known the truth, and looked him in the eye, as a woman, as a grown up. Who did he think he was? Who do I think he was? It is sad that, because of that list that indeed I am on, the one that I got on for not silencing my questions, I cannot ask my questions in the context of the community that I spent two thirds of my life in. There is no room anymore, with the people that I love, to ask the obvious questions, to be human, to care. That makes me a little melancholy sometimes. This reminds me of a post I put up a long time ago - that there was this feeling that the supporters maybe think that people like me are some sort of radical fringe. But we're not. We were the people that "they" shared your lives with. That is what is so bizarre. I was not some sort of marginal person (well, eventually, yes . . .). But we may have caught each other's eye somewhere on the way between this and that seva, between this and that program, between this and that darshan. We may have seen each other and felt a lot of love. There may be these really fond memories of each other and yet now its as if we've always been enemies or something. Strange. Who would have ever imagined. And then there are the people that felt really distant from me in the ashram, with whom I now share a great friendship. Who would have imagined! Leaving Siddha Yoga. What a trip. Subj: leaving - part 4 of 8 Date: 96-04-04 07:06:56 EST From: Shridevi And then there are the bad things. I feel like I want to say again and again, I'm not naive that abusive, corrupt things happen everywhere, including in religious institutions. I feel like I want to say that: for me, the state of affairs of the world is not a reason to fail to take whatever actions we can to alleviate unnecessary suffering. I guess this is something I feel strongly about. I realize it could sound pretty righteous. But it is the way I feel. It's fine if others don't. I just feel that if we all had the courage and the generosity to make a little effort, we would indeed be able to make some difference, and we would indeed be truly honoring the god that dwells within the hearts of all beings. One thing that seems to stand in the way, in the world as well as in Siddha Yoga, is a reluctance to see things as they really are. If we don't want to admit to ourselves that anything is wrong, we can be justified in not dealing with the impact of reality upon our consciousness. So - for what it is worth - I want to just run down all the things that stand out for me in terms of SY's "shadow material"- Here is a story that brings it home. This is not my story. It is a story of another young woman, a little younger than me, who went to Gurumayi to tell her that she was bothered by unwanted sexual advances by George. Gurumayi told her that it was her fault and THAT SHE SHOULD TELL NO ONE, ESPECIALLY HER MOTHER. Wow! I am still stunned. This brings reality not only to the top of the hierarchy - to the guru's chair - but also into the present. That the abuses that Baba did are not altogether a thing of the past in Siddha Yoga. What kinds of questions does this raise about Gurumayi? Just, like, off the top of the head without thinking about it too much. And let me take a quick look at the Baba thing. Having been lied about myself, I was very reluctant to believe these allegations and gossip about Baba's behavior. After years of talking to people, and meeting people who were close to him and all that, it is clear to me that no one who knows is denying these allegations. Now the story, as Ram Butler summarized it, is that these were tantric acts. (Lets just ignore the fact that non-consentual sexual contact with minors under the pretense of checking 'virginity' is not exactly the most elegant way to be tantric.) It is important to note that at least one young woman - was really upset by the whole affair and did not want to participate. Her tears are history as we follow the story of Michael Dinga - his standing up for her, Baba's anger, his flight from Siddha Yoga, sustaining threats of disfigurement, etc. Eyewitnesses have described how Baba himself made an effort to discredit his former devotee. And here I would just refer to the Abhayananda letter. It is not a vision of an enlightened tantric master, in my opinion anyway. Subj: part 41/2 of 8 Date: 96-04-04 07:08:16 EST From: Shridevi In the spirit of summarizing - there is this thing about Gurumayi's treatment of Nityananda. I could go on and on about this, as there are now new and improved "official" histories which describe what happened, and which contradict earlier "official" histories in a way which really makes it hard not to pick up a copy of 1984. Others can summarize better than I can. I was around when the Ann Arbor community had its Nityananda drama. I listened to Swami Shantananda go on an on about "fatso" this and all that. I watched the Ann Arbor community be lied to that Ganesh Irelan and Chris Forsythe were somehow "acting on their own behalf" - hiring bouncers to beat up a man in a wheel chair, spray skunk oil into a peaceful audience and harrass/vandalize property of a black woman who was hired to video tape the whole affair. David Gruner DID NOT DENY these things when I confronted him outside the guru gita. They did eventually apologize for lying about me in order to have an excuse to kick me out. (They pulled me out of the Guru Gita to tell me that I had been "seen" several times at a place that I had never been - and given that I wasn't even living in Ann Arbor anymore, it was even more ridiculous.) Anyway, that is not important, but I was put on that damn list for refusing to be brainwashed. What a trip! Anything else that stands out? Well, there was that interesting piece about ashram devotees pouring hot ghee on to adivasi workers who were striking and then burning their huts down. And the endless accounts of Gurumayi being a certifiable axis two personality disorder - Narcissism is hard to over look in my opinion. Wow! I think to myself again. Who would have imagined. I would not have imagined. Subj: part 5 of 8 Date: 96-04-04 07:09:07 EST From: Shridevi I remember again my conversation with Ram Butler. After I asked him - "how would you feel if it was your daughter on a table?" (the reality of the table was not in question) I got the answer - "this sort of thing just doesn't happen anymore around Gurumayi." Well, in the same conversation Ram told me that "he only experiences the Siddha Yoga that is the correspondence course and his workshops. Gurumayi tells him to stay out of politics and he does. And he doesn't trust people who don't take the course anyway. Of course, he doesn't always write it, for instance the newsletter responding to the New Yorker article was written by Richard Gillette, but that doesn't bother him. He is in the inner circle and he would know if anything bad was going on. . . .(but he only sees the SY that is the correspondence course, etc. and we go around the mobius strip again and again. . .)" It is interesting that when talking to other people who were in the same "inner circle" it is pointed out to me that Gurumayi doesn't have a whole lot of respect for Ram. How could he be used like that? Anyway . . . The point I am trying to make here is three fold. 1.) To mention to Ram that he is indeed living in a bubble and therefore he indeed does NOT know what is going on politically. and 2.) To show a little bit of the mechanics of how to avoid thinking the obvious, by thinking in a circle of contradictions. 3.) To introduce the question: is Ram "supporting" the things he says he wouldn't support? Here is another little contradiction loop: "I, Ram, have no interpretations about where you are coming from.//You are just seeing the Siddha Yoga of your teenage years." or "You seem to always think I am judging you. // You don't think that I, Ram, am one of "those" deluded yogis??" or (this is my favorite) "my eleven year old son is intelligent enough to recognize the stupidity of the notion that someone 2000 years ago died on the cross for our sins." (I will make no comment about Liberation Theology here. I will just wonder if the same eleven year old child might also be intelligent enough to recognize what is bizarre about the notion that a 70 year old man put 16 year old girls on a table and put his limp penis inside them in the name of god.) Subj: part 5 1/2 of 8 Date: 96-04-04 07:09:43 EST From: Shridevi Honestly, Ram, I will say what I have said before. There may be a more elegant denial system going on here - a Shaivite (or quasi Shaivite) plate between the lobes. But a plate between the lobes is a plate between the lobes - whether it is the Calvinist/Big Brother denial or the cool, hip, tantric denial. It is kind of eery, actually. I also want to say, Ram, that I have decided to keep your secrets for you and not publish them on-line here. They were really no big deal, after all, but if people would freak out to know what their idealized teacher is up to - why not allow them the opportunity to expand their "shaivite" worldview?? And I wonder, do you have any intelligent friends to talk to who aren't looking up to you as their teacher? And I want to say one more thing: I always like to check out the beginning of movies or novels, they always seem to contain the seeds of things. The first thing you said to me was: "I, Ram, put all the energy into this relationship. I send you the Course for free, and you don't read it. I let you take my workshops for free, and you don't care." I just want to say that taking your workshops and your course is not exactly what I would call "having a relationship." And I want to say that if you are ever in the mood to have a real friendship, or even just a real conversation where you don't pretend to respect my "feelings" while you make all kinds of "spiritual" comments about how such things are irrelevant and illusory - I'm still here and you know my phone number. My guess is that I have already been dismissed. My guess is that I will be labeled as 'paranoid' for 'creating my own reality' that you are dismissing me. But you know what? I have spent 20 years (well, 19 actually) in Siddha Yoga. I am not naive about the subtle ways people like me are dismissed. Hello. There is an objective world out there. Indiscriminate resorting to highly esoteric platforms is a sadhana cop out. This is what I did not say a couple of weeks ago. Thanks for bearing with me. Subj: part 6 Date: 96-04-04 07:11:38 EST From: Shridevi Moving right along - I thought maybe I could write a post and express myself without reveeeling that indeed, I am human. Got some feelings. Still feel fairly passionate about that Ram thing. I have friends who are in cults that are just as weird as Siddha Yoga. Weirder probably. And I don't really get worked up about their state of mind and stuff. I care but my heart rate is still fairly normal. I guess I just have to underline that indeed it is difficult sometimes . . . (often!) to feel this weird wall between you and the people you were really close to. I have a girlfriend, who for a short time was seriously being courted into the inner circles in Siddha Yoga. During that time it was very difficult to maintain intimacy with her. She did not want to hear 'bad things' (i.e. much of my experience of SY and things that were currently on my mind) and yet she did want to share about Palm Springs and her experience of seeing Gurumayi in Amrit and all that. She has since realized that she is not going to continue to do the SY thing. And she is going to tell them why. (She told me she saw my name on the list with maximum points - this I guess was a reminder that things were a little screwy.) Anyway, we both talked about how we did not want something like Siddha Yoga coming between us as friends. Yet, in some weird way, it did. There was this way that when she was in Siddha Yoga - reality needed to be a certain way in order for everything to work. I find this really interesting. It is not so much that all these things go on that is surprising to me. It is not surprising at all, actually. This is pretty much the way the world is. What continually peaks my curiosity, though, is how we deal with all these conflicting messages and experiences. I am curious to see the different range of what people are willing to do, on a gross level. That really intelligent, well meaning people are willing to hang out in Sonoma County with a baseball bat and hatred in their eyes for "god." How can this be good for a person's soul? How can this be a positive thing? (I have enough use of my intellect to be able to talk about sweeping karmic destinies and all that jazz - but in a more simple way . . . how does it REALLY make sense - how does it make sense to the heart.) And then, on a more subtle level, I am curious to see the creative ways people find to make such behaviors make sense. Or, in the case of Ram Butler, to be so trancendental as to not care that anything make sense. I'm curious about that. He says he feels his daughter really wanted to be born. I would guess that his daughter really has something to teach him about this. Statistics are not in her favor, unfortunately. I don't think that such divine indifference is going to fly with the fatherhood thing. And the only way that these unfortunate statistics are going to change is if people do decide that it is valuable to understand political realities, valuable to understand how people are oppressed etc etc. This perspective does not negate the perspective that "this is all the play of consciousness." Part of sadhana, it seems to me, is to learn to navigate with discrimination and with love. Clinging to one perspective at the expense of a fearless consideration of reality, again, seems to be a cop out. ((And of course, the argument can be made, and it has, that it is just as possible to cling blindly to some unhealthy anti-SY posture. From an outside perspective it might appear that the people like me and you who are talking about the negatives are fanatics or something. But in the context of all the propaganda SY puts out to silence such voices, to rewrite history, etc etc etc. these alternative voices are really not such a big deal. Its just a little blip. A place to get a different perspective - and not have to get it the hard way.)) Subj: 6.5 / 8 Date: 96-04-04 07:12:18 EST From: Shridevi I'm going to quote a little Joanna Macy 'cause I like her a lot. <>Just because Hitler used the swastika (a Hindu symbol) doesn't mean that his defeat was a blow to Hinduism. Similarly the downfall of corrupt SYDA would NOT be a blow to Hinduism. Quite the reverse.<< Unfortunately, Hitler did manage to ruin the association, reputation, and feeling behind the swastika for most people in the world. I find that I think of it as a symbol of hatred, and it is only through effort that I can associate it with Ganesh and anything good. I don't want to see this happen to the mantra and many other aspects of siddha yoga that have nothing to do with corruption. This IS a matter for "debate" and I really don't see why you feel the need to bash a short post from me with a long 3-part rambling attack... I have feelings too, and I want you to know that I found your post off-putting enough to decide to e-mail this rather than try to talk to the angry barking dog you act like on the forum. Why bother? Your message has been stated freely and to the point of overkill ad infinitum. I don't see why you feel the need to get so territorial about what does or doesn't "belong" on the debate board. Now who is trying to control what can be said? I think the debate board is free territory to express ALL sides of a multifaceted issue. It is well known that you don't see it that way and that you think the whole thing is better off defunct. I certainly was not calling anyone a "fallen yogi." I don't get the impression that Dissent would want to be called any kind of yogi these days, fallen or otherwise. I also don't think that Shreedevi would agree that there is no "Self." I really am hurt by your insistent use of phrases that try to label things as "thought-corks" and other such insults. Why must you always try to paint people in terms of a lowest common denominator? Multifaceted people are the ones on all sides of the SY fence, and I feel that your comments are often genuinely painful to many, like you are trying to twist the knife. You can't cop out by saying simply that real seekers and real sadhana would be immune to your attacks. We have already established our vulnerability and imperfection. You often seem to exploit this and that is part of the reason I have avoided the forum lately. I can hardly believe that a couple of nice little friendly posts from me generated so much venom fro you, however couched in denegrating humor. I don't always react quite so strongly to your stuff, and have been known to smile along on many occassions but not when your yuks are at the expense of others. Then you are just like those you criticize in SYDA, and perhaps just as damaging to some people reading. Sorry to have to tell you this. Let me know if you would prefer that I post this on the board. I may anyway, but I'd like to see what your "private persona" will have to say about it first. Subj: Re:Gurumayi Watchers. Part 2 Date: 96-04-07 14:26:22 EDT From: ENOMNI To proffer one answer to the critique of not recognizing any good from SY is to slightly miss the point. First, I'm assuming we're not ogres here at our insistence on pointing out the SY mess. What fascinates me is not so much that SY evidences typical human failings but that SY is a behemoth unaware of these failings. Or, more likely, has so constructed a paradigm of self-deception, that it cannot become aware of its own shortcomings. If we extrapolate an institution's processes to an individual's psyche, an analogize for a moment, SY is like some big powerful rich guy........who is surrounded by "Yes" men. It is a failing institution because it reinterprets criticism to be a breach of loyalty. If we look at SY under an economic analysis, it resembles some of the major US auto industries approximately 10 yrs ago in the following ways: 1) total confidence in the superiority of their product and 2)total confidence in the superiority of the production of their product. Succinctly, it wasn't until American auto industries were going deep into the red that they sought out and were helped by their own critiques. To put it another way. Narada points out some interesting insights regarding the North and South Node polarities that may be at work in Gurumayi's persona. There is habitual comfort in keeping things as they are---an institution to support a paradigm/ego, in addition to a human cost, i.e., relationships, which cannot thrive within such a paradigm. This board is the consequence, indeed a natural process. When presented with your own lack, the seeds of doubt regarding your own life emerge. The doubt at first seems to don only a negative face. Eventually, the minority view on doubt becomes a majoritarian force as the conscience begins to look for an answer when sensing it's own lack. In sum, i join Howie and Narada in sitting back and watching what presently resembles a Greek tragedy, but may soon enough become an American comedy. Cordially, E Subj: An indoctrination experiment Date: 96-04-08 07:24:01 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, (Background information on SYDA is available in AOL's Hinduism library.) The author cited below describes an experiment that looks at the "indoctrination effect," as seen in SYDA ashrams and centers. BEGIN QUOTED MATERIAL <<>> END QUOTED MATERIAL Subj: Re:An indoctrination experimen Date: 96-04-09 03:16:22 EDT From: ENOMNI Hmmm...... and what originally was a quest for truth turned into an adherance to ritual. Eventually, ritual replaced the quest for truth as the truth itself, held in itself to have it's own meaning, bringing that trained satiated response at the culmination of each ceremony. I recall in my upbringing of being told about white sepluchres..... Cordially, E Subj: hangin' on the cross Date: 96-04-05 23:28:45 EDT From: Shridevi Wooop! What happened?! I just snuk back on here, didn't I. Not peeking, I promise. I wanted to wish y'all a happy judeo-christian (prolly ripped off from the pagans) spring ritual weekend. Namaste to all those great beings who didn't see any difference between human political and spiritual liberation. Jaya Jesus, Hare Moses! "You were Jesus Christ my Lord, I was the money lender" (L. Cohen) And remember the story about the fleshpots? (Exodus 16) Those Israelites would have rather had fleshpots and the safety of captivity than Manna (not enough to hoard, just enough to satisfy hunger) and liberation. Any parallels? Manna is the reward for social emancipation. Hmmm... Subj: Re:hangin' on the cross Date: 96-04-06 04:29:51 EDT From: ENOMNI yes, the sour cereal was good............BUT..........how about the zombie march to get the chai before the Gita in the morning. Now I know where the creator of Dawn of the Dead saved money for some of his shots! Anyways Shri, while I can't speak for all, I assume we all understand your impulse to exit. Your presence will be much missed but we are all quite aware that what occurs when one has left SY is none other than "life" itself. You have a life now, we all do, and I congratulate you for living it. We only stay because we like taking shots at the side of a barn. In other words, SY is such an easy target, and at least myself, am such a lousy aimer when it comes to the clear discernment of truth and falseness, that I come here to perview and take aim at that clear and unambiguous institution of silliness: SY. Consequently Shri, I'd wish you stay, if not for me, then for the spirit of riflery. Cordially, E Subj: rendered stupid Date: 96-04-06 11:58:16 EDT From: Soloflyr11 some thoughts from a few days ago: when i was in sy i with all good intentions followed what i thought was a path of austerity that would lead me to freedom. ok, so i wasn't so smart... i had the false belief that if i decreased all "outside" stimulus except a narrow selective band then my vrittis would subside and leave me in a quiet conscious state, or something of the sort. anyway my point is that in this way and in many others i had gotten to the point mentioned in some other posts as being rendered stupid. i read nothing outside of sy, i listened to no music outside of sy, etc etc. and i believed that this was the true path, the more i just totally absorbed myself into the path the more "success" i would have at attaining enlightnment. ok ok i know i was really extreme, i do certain things to the max. now it just fascinates me that i could have been THAT deluded. when i first left there were a lot of beliefs that i shed pretty fast. it wasn't long before i was listening to whatever music i wanted to without guilt etc. some beliefs took longer to overcome, sex for example. and since some of the beliefs were merely overlays on beliefs that i may have carried my whole life, the process of cleansing myself of such beliefs may take still longer. r sita wrote<< The more you get into Siddha Yoga the more you learn that acting according to Gurumayi's wishes should be your number one priority. This is supposed to be your ticket to salvation. This teaching sneaks in gradually with the other teachings. The more deeply involved with SY you are, the more you are exposed to it. This turns people into zombies, capable of completely betraying their own truth for the sake of pleasing Gurumayi.>>> yep, i got sucked into that one too. (fortunately i never completely betrayed my own truth thank you, but i sure was puzzled by the discrepancies.) r sita, your speedy recovery from sy is quite commendable, it does not appear to have taken you long to see the whole situation so clearly. indeed, sy does not have a corner on the grace market, in fact in my opinion it was grace that i was able to get out. and now that i look back, i can't imagine how i could have stayed, i was so limited, so unfulfilled, so oppressed etc etc... what a fascinating phenomena... still trying to comprehend how i could have been so blind, how difficult it is for people to get out etc. does a lot of it just come down to addiction to ideologies, addcition to things that will explain everything for you etc.... an easy way out, not having to take responsibility for yourself etc etc.... oh and howie, i do like your point that if cult information <> it might be more effective. so much of what happens in a cult becomes so puzzling when you leave. one is left with trying to find an explanation for so many experiences, many of them quite "good", without falling into the cult explanation. for a long time i struggled with how to understand my "spiritual experiences" without giving the credit to the guru. not that i hadn't had any such experiences prior to sy, but still i had so many experiences while i was involved and had up to the point of leaving explained it all in the context of guru's grace etc. i think if there was more explanation of "experiential life" one would not be so vulnerable to the propoganda of organizations that want to take credit for your experiences.... and i do miss chanting. shree, if you're out there, hope i can join one of your alternative chants sometime... do hope someday to enjoy some group chanting again..... this whole subject of sy seems to arouse less emotion in me now, however when i think of "dear ones" that are stuck inside, then i guess i can still get a bit worked up..... happy spring holidays to you all and happy new beginnings, with love, solo Subj: I've fallen & I CAN'T GET UP! Date: 96-04-07 11:39:34 EDT From: Howie Sm Get a load of this: <<>> Yet someone else going for the "fallen yogi" thought-cork. I was gladdened by Dissent's post because it affirmed "the self" that loves, that expresses, that creates, that feels empathy, that participates in life's colors. In my book, that's the Self I'm interested in. I was gladdened by Dissent's post because it exposed the HUBRISTIC crazy-making megalo nut-rhetoric of corrupt SYDA for what it is. I don't find that zombie-fare appetizing (or Eastern?!) in the least. Have a great week folks! Subj: Between us barking dogs . . . Date: 96-04-07 14:42:59 EDT From: Howie Sm Howie here. You know me: I'm that barking dog, fallen yogi guy. I was just doing my usual, when Larry sent something weird to my private e-mail. Since he said he intended it for the folders, I've reposted it on SIDDHA ETHICS folder where you can see it. He says he's been lurking and going through all kinds of emotions. Maybe this all started when Shridevi rebuffed him earlier on this folder: if I recall correctly, that was when he stopped posting regularly, and vanished into lurkerdom. I'm not doing anything new, so perhaps there is more to his reaction that meets the eye. Does anyone know if there an inside story to all this that I've missed? Subj: Re:I've fallen & I CAN'T GET U Date: 96-04-07 14:43:38 EDT From: ENOMNI To: Howie, Dissent, et al, Even so, the denial of the Self is not contrary to "almost all eastern thought". One word: Buddhism, and one word within all of Buddhism: Anatta. Buddhism is a missionary religion as well. It tends to spread. Sure it doesn't thrive in the country of it's origin, but,....abroad it has taken up the deepest of roots throughout Southeast Asia, Korea, Japan, and growing in the West. Anatta, a central doctrine of Buddhism, may be translated as "no self". The idea is that the self is a constructed illusion of the ego. Metaphysics aside, it may well be that Gotama, 2500 yrs ago, was reacting to the sociological abuses that emerge when adhering to a religion or philosophy that emphasizes the self and the Self, jivatma w/ Paratma, etc......what a mess. These abuses are perhaps evident in SY when self/Self (like love, and God) is spoken of as if it consisted of a "volume" or "quantity". How much God? How much Self? How much does enlightenment cost please? Oh.....only camels through needle eyes at SY. As for Howie's laudation of Dissent' character, that is quite another point, and I'm in total agreement. Cordially, E Subj: Re: rendered stupid Date: 96-04-08 08:32:05 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear Solo, You say <<>> Years ago, just before entering a cult, a friend gave me a recording collection he had compiled over a number of years, which included many special and rare items. These recordings were his passion for his entire adult life up to the time he entered the cult. He told me that he no longer had any need for that kind of music. He also gave me some other items that were formerly important to him. I've been keeping his recordings in boxes for years. I want to have them ready for him if he ever asks for them back. Solo, thanks for your post. Subj: Re:I've fallen & I CAN'T GET U Date: 96-04-08 08:35:55 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 2 Dear Enomni, Right on with the Buddhism discussion. I always shudder when "Easterners" are painted with a broad brush, as if they were a congealed homogenous mass of like thinkers. Your post was a corrective to that kind of broad-brush characterization. There are a lot of "Easterners" who think the notion of "Self" as constructed by SYDA (and other multimillion dollar New Age cults) is baloney. This is a no-brainer: just because a zealot says "God" does not mean their project is godly, and it does not mean that those who criticize the zealot's project have "lost faith in God." This observation is opaque to those who have internalized the semantic system (yogaspeak) of a cult, and are unable to distinguish between the cult meaning of a word and generally accepted, or other specialized, meanings--or even meanings built up syntactically, that is, through context. Reading comprehension is one of the first things to go in a cult member (as Steve Hassan mentions in his book, from his own experience). Gotta kowtow to all the buzzwords. Subj: Re:I've fallen & I CAN'T GET U Date: 96-04-08 08:37:25 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 2 Dear Enomni, You say <<>> You describe here important cult connotations that SYDA attaches to perfectly good words, such as "Self." Disciples are told that they can get "a lot of" shakti at an "Intensive program" for over $500 (the current price of SYDA's "package 1"). They are told that there is "more shakti" at SYDA locations than elsewhere. The Self is a commodity, and SYDA has the product. Be there or be square. SYDA tells disciples that once they own a Self of their own, their self-realization is assured. The kind of money-back guarantee they provide is the promise that "everyone gets an awakened Self at the intensive" WHETHER OR NOT THEY EXPERIENCE ANYTHING. People actually buy this line! Remember this one: "THE INTENSIVE BEGINS ONCE YOU'VE MAILED THE CHECK." Once disciples buy SYDA's "guaranteed commodity," it relieves them of the responsibility of thinking about philosophy further. They can if they want to, but why bother? They've already got the product. But they don't bother to think for another reason: SYDAites ARE ENJOINED TO NOT THINK: the anti-mind component of SYDA's dogma requires the stoppage of critical thought processes. And in these and other ways, SYDA disciples are deaf to the rich layers of meaning that have accrued over centuries to words such as "Self" (atman). In fact looking into such meanings (in unauthorized ways) is perceived as an "exercise of impure ego, intellect, mind." The final absurdity is: SYDA disciples talk about the Self as if it were a transparent noun they understood perfectly. Certainly more perfectly than those who haven't purchased the initiation and therefore don't have an "awakened Self" of their own. The way SYDAites talk about the Self, it sounds like they are describing a load of cabbage. Subj: Re: and more Cabbage Date: 96-04-08 19:26:45 EDT From: ENOMNI On that note, i sometimes think of SY as selective Hinduism. I would purposely use the word Hinduism here because it was brought up on the other board i think that someone quite comfortable with Sy's yogic practices was uncomfortable with the word "Hinduism." I think that needs to be looke at, doncha think? For instance there is a tradition called Jnana Yoga, which despite its potentially circular negative logic, seems to be a practice lacking at SY. For why? It could not simply be that SY adheres to a trans-dual Shaivite system, because that too is a "system" resorted to quite selectively at SY. Could it be because holes within the hodge-podge constructed metaphysics given at SY could show wear and tear? There is a problem with systems. They are built on assumptions. SY does have a system, tho' it lacks the inherent and necessary deconstructive checks on its own systems. Christendom, Buddhism, Islam, and properly applied Hinduism, all exist as systems, but have staying power (e.g., 2000-3000 yrs.) precisely because the systems they proffer to their adherents have a kind of deconstructive check on them. Muslims abhor image-likenesses of the divine because of the closure it suggests on the infinity of Allah. Christians, at their best, adhere to a radical self-inquiry. Hindu's likewise, have a tradition of Jnana Yoga, which consists in absolute inquiry. I find a similar check to be lacking in SY as a religious practice and it consequently seems to me to be a form of selective Hinduism catered specifically to the Western yuppie palate. Cordially, E Subj: Re:Can the Mantra be tainted? Date: 96-04-10 02:41:28 EDT From: Soloflyr11 hi cybertori, you said <> yes, it is all very sad. however let me offer you these thoughts.... when i first disengaged from syda i was not able to use the mantra or anything without feeling a disturbing association. now however, i am finding that i can use any of the practices if i so wish without feeling any association to syda, but rather only an association with the practice. the association to syda was slowly broken for me. and then more recently i've made some great strides in my "recovery" and now know much more deeply in my being that these practices do *not* belong to syda. the mantra is ancient, it has power, and if i wish to use it that is totally up to me and has nothing to do with syda anymore. well that's how i see and feel it now, though there was definitely a period where i had to separate from anything that was associated with syda. and it *has* been my experience as narada put it << one will still have a very powerful mantra established to show for ones time there. After all, spending all those hundreds of hours, (thousands for some) chanting in a group can't help but have a powerful effect.>> IMVVHO, solo Subj: Re:Can the Mantra be tainted? Date: 96-04-10 03:03:04 EDT From: ENOMNI I would be resistant and suspicious of an attachment to the mantra. If at first there is a discomfort on shedding any feeling of a need for the mantra, I would look at that discomfort and question whether some attachment has arisin. What after all is the alleged purpose of the mantra? To some, a mere means to relaxation, while to others a vehicle towards liberation. If one really embraces a perennial philosophy in understanding the infinite enlightenment to not be trapped by the forms we think we utilize to arrive at that point beyond then our imputed means to enlightenment are questionable. Or, in other words, If God is in all,--a circle whose circumference is nowhere and whose center is everywhere, then no closure or definition can embrace God, therefore all is included within God, thus the means towards God, are likewise incapable of acheiving a status of closure towards the way toward God. Hence, the mantra may be dropped. What holds one back other than attachment to its seductive form? Even within the questionable proffered philosophy of SY, the mantra is to be dropped at a certain point. Its utilization, furthermore, is not always delineated at SY. On that point, I ask, is there a point in which the mantra should be dropped? How much does the desire to keep it resemble a mere cultural attraction? How much does it resemble mere positive reinforcement? If its because we get a sense of pleasure from practicing its repeitition, is this sufficient? Is pleasure the goal? Was it our goal to begin with? OR, was peace or truth the goal? If those on this board, to some degrees more than others, acknowledge they may have lost their way through SY is it then too far a detraction to suggest that anattachment to the mantra is another manifestation of a lost way? I'm not suggesting the mantras alleged purpose is invalid, only that perhaps there is a better way towards our goal and nothing would be lost through dropping one of many means up the same mountain....... Just some thoughts, Cordially, E Subj: Sw. Howie's chaitanya mantra Date: 96-04-10 07:38:16 EDT From: Howie Sm ********SWAMI HOWIE GIVES FREE MANTRA SAMPLE********** Feeling psychically connected to a restauranteur's daughter? This is common in the Kali Yuga. Here is a powerful mantra to clear those samskaras. Repeat 108 times. Also works as tid-ee-bowl substitute. "There once was a donkey named Malti A mammal of really low quality Quite soft in the head and very misled By yuppie advice that was faulty" *********** Subj: est, the Forum Date: 96-04-11 07:13:44 EDT From: Dissent222 I'm just reading the book "Outrageous Betrayal," the story of Werner Erhard and his organizations. It's really fascinating. Many of the early westerners in syda were est grads, and Erhard is said to have been involved in first bringing Muktananda to the U.S. The book is by Steven Pressman, and I highly recommend it. Hard cover only, my local library had it. Erhard's history of falsifying his biography, abusing women and staff (and family), and so using phony tax shelters for money, etc etc - it's exactly like reading the Muktnanda/Gurumayi/Afif story. Check it out. Subj: SYDA style brainwashing & est Date: 96-04-11 07:49:42 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, It was said that the Siddha Yoga intensive format was directly borrowed from est. The following quoted material shows that est and Siddha Yoga use the same techniques of verbal abuse and public humiliation to induce altered states and to brainwash. These cults have important points of similarity. The following est participant's narrative could be titled "a Siddha Yoga course," or "the making of a Vedanta-style sociopath," or "brainwashing narcissists," or "inducing altered states through cult pressure," or "a spiritual seeker gets his money's worth." ****** BEGIN QUOTED MATERIAL<<< (begin participant's narrative) "The physical discomfort and badgering left me horrified, and feeling very weird. Time had stopped running in any usual sense, and I was having unexpected feelings of all kinds. At one point, when the trainer called my friend a TOS for trying to console a woman who was crying, I got enraged; I wanted to see the trainer dead. I realizd that I was beginning to lose any sense of where I was in the real world, and even who I usually was. And then suddenly it came clear! I was the prisoner of my own compulsion to help everyone and be kind to them. The trainer was right; I didn't have to be tied down by this attitude. I was free to choose what I might think and feel, independent of forty years of programming. Then the whole room seemed to slip away, and I no longer cared about eating, peeing, or how long the whole damn thing would run on. I felt liberated, released from a long prison term." (end participant's narrative) In one sense, this represented a transition to a full-blown "culture of narcissism" in which the individual owes allegiance only to the self. Participants in the est program often feel released from the commitments born out of fidelity to their fellow humans, allowing them to indulge themselves without guilt.>>>END QUOTED MATERIAL Subj: Re:Can the Mantra be tainted? Date: 96-04-11 08:21:11 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear Enomni and Solo, Enomni and Solo, you've said it, and said it well. Amplifying one of your points: Isn't this a narcissistic reading of Hamlet? "To stare at the navel or not to stare at the navel, that is the question." Um, I don't think anyone needs permission if they want to stare at their navel. Just go ahead and do it (and even save some AOL dollars in the process!). Just go ahead and do it, as the popular song goes: "do it . . do it . . do it till ya satisfied! . ." But for those seeking approval, those who need someone to tell them they are "right," well I'll oblige: TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN--YOU MAY STARE AT YOUR NAVEL WITH MY BLESSING. Maybe this is the question: "How many narcissists can dance on the head of an AOL microchip?" Subj: ManyThanks Date: 96-04-11 16:45:50 EDT From: BVena I am soooo thankful for the internet. I live far away from any devotees these days. I don't think I would have heard of many of the abuses that I did not see for myself if not for this medium. It is all coming together for me with this stuff out in the open. The fact that I was in SY for 13 years and knew little is very telling of what kind of society exists there. This type of discussion would be possible if the parties involved had to meet by chance. What I myself saw was enough to make me stop going to the ashram. It wasn't enough to make me question the validity of SY as a whole. But now knowing about the sex, violence and EST like morals of the central people has really done it. It's just too much to rationalize away. I am sure I would have gone on thinking that was inadequate and a fallen yogi for the rest of my life. Never questioning the appalling circumstances that put that kind of gibberish into my head. This has all happened in just the last 2-3 months so I'm still kind of raw and blistered. I remember reading Howies posts and thinking "what a jerk. I just will not read this!". Dissent scared me. Now it makes sense. By the way Howie I can now appreciate your approach as well. At this point I don't care about yogis, fallen yogis, mantras, gurus, gurus horny brothers, the Bamboozlebag Gita, or any of the yuppie new age snake oil selling flim flam artists that have web pages by the search path Hinduism>>Siddha Yoga. (Check that out folks, it's a scream) Oh yeah.. Anyone coming up to me with a "Loose Weight Now Ask Me How" button is liable to get a punch in the nose. You know who you are. Oh! I feel so cleansed! WGRL Raj Subj: Re: ManyThanks Date: 96-04-11 17:57:58 EDT From: Dissent222 Raj, I congratulate you on freeing yourself. I also spent about 13 years under the spell. Please don't be scared of me - I'm a nice guy, just need to be anon so as to avoid law suits. It's not quite 2 years since I made the break, and I'm still working on getting myself back together. I lived and worked there most of those years - of course on a small stipend, no benefits, no IRAs or 401(k) -- but plenty of abuse. It was just great reading Outrageous Betrayal, about Werner Erhard, because these gurus are all the same - it could be the story of GM. They lie about their identity, abuse those close to them, live for power and money, are paranoid, obssessive compulsive, and incredibly seductive. I hope you and others know that a packet with the New Yorker article and the old Rodarmor article, as well as many others, is available from the Cult Awareness Network, for about $15. Write to: CAN, 2421 W. Pratt Blvd., Suite 1173, Chicago, Ill. 60645, or call 312-267-7777. I also recommend writing to CAN just to get on their mailing list. It's free for the first year when you first get out of your cult. They have great conferences and a great reading list. Once again, Raj, congrats - you're free now, and even though it will hurt for a long time to realize how swindled you were, you can figure it out and never let yourself be used like that again. Subj: Re: ManyThanks Date: 96-04-11 17:57:58 EDT From: Dissent222 Raj, I congratulate you on freeing yourself. I also spent about 13 years under the spell. Please don't be scared of me - I'm a nice guy, just need to be anon so as to avoid law suits. It's not quite 2 years since I made the break, and I'm still working on getting myself back together. I lived and worked there most of those years - of course on a small stipend, no benefits, no IRAs or 401(k) -- but plenty of abuse. It was just great reading Outrageous Betrayal, about Werner Erhard, because these gurus are all the same - it could be the story of GM. They lie about their identity, abuse those close to them, live for power and money, are paranoid, obssessive compulsive, and incredibly seductive. I hope you and others know that a packet with the New Yorker article and the old Rodarmor article, as well as many others, is available from the Cult Awareness Network, for about $15. Write to: CAN, 2421 W. Pratt Blvd., Suite 1173, Chicago, Ill. 60645, or call 312-267-7777. I also recommend writing to CAN just to get on their mailing list. It's free for the first year when you first get out of your cult. They have great conferences and a great reading list. Once again, Raj, congrats - you're free now, and even though it will hurt for a long time to realize how swindled you were, you can figure it out and never let yourself be used like that again. Subj: BVena: thanks from Howie Date: 96-04-11 18:31:17 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear BVena and others, Thanks for the good word (and I'm still doing the Beauregard Gita--it really puts me in a "state"!). By the way, I think Howie is a jerk also! But a jerk who wishes all people in SYDA well; who is concerned about those in the inner circle, who are trapped in an endless cycle of self-hatred and masochism that grinning others call "spiritual training"; who is concerned about those in the outer circle, whose brainwashing has literally turned off their critical faculties, and made them into ethics-blind zombies--in some cases, narcissistically sociopathic zombies--zombies that think recruiting more zombies into an already filthy-rich cult is a laudable life purpose. In my view, the writers of the Open Letter, Dissent, Michael Dinga, and others like them are probably the best and most reliable friends SYDA supporters have online here. Yes, I said SYDA supporters. Who but Dinga and the others are really looking out for the interests of those inside SYDA? Surely not Gurumayi and her zombies. If SYDA critics don't talk, who will? As far as the online personas here go, whether people like SYDA critics or the way they express themselves is not all that important. What is important is for people to recognize that SYDA is a destructive cult. Indeed, making a pleasant impression cannot be a priority, for there is no pleasant way to talk about the SYDA con. Even when the SYDA farce is seen for what it is, that isn't the end of the story for many. Some may want to contact the good people who support those leaving cults like SYDA. Some should also talk to other exs, family, and old friends, even if it feels uncomfortable or embarrassing at first. Ex-devotees who were deeply involved in SYDA should definitely take steps to get "SYDA tech" out of their heads. It takes time to get all that gunk out of the gray matter. What the experts say (I'm not one) is: to experience ambivalence, and various kinds of intense feelings is completely natural when one tries to break away from cultishness. It is not a sign that one should return to SYDA or SYDA's thought-system, or that something is dreadfully wrong, or that one is "cursed." And talking things out isn't a bad idea, in general. Well, as much as I value and recommend these other modes of healing discourse, it's not what I offer online (obviously!). (Though Swami Howie will give spiritual guidance, for a nominal "donation" fee.) What common Joes like me can do is unequivocally point out, without any backpedaling noises, that SYDA is a destructive cult. That message still isn't out there. I CONFESS! I'm a whistle blower with a weakness for expostulating on the carnivalesque elements of SYDA society. So clap your hands over your ears, 'cause that shrill whistle sound is about to begin again! ! ! Subj: Re:BVena: thanks from Howie Date: 96-04-11 23:43:40 EDT From: ENOMNI To: BVena et al, Welcome to the world of the waking. Doncha' worry, we all get duped now and then, some more than others. Others longer than others, but duping is inevitable. I've been thinking,.....what is it that makes us such fertile fodder for such as the ilk of the EST cult, the Rajneeshis, TM, SY, the Moonies, the Hari Krishnas, and etc. ad nauseum? Perhaps it is because what all of the above have in common is a business interest. Yes, it's true, they are interested in making MONEY. Now, nothing is wrong with making money, BUT, what is fraudulent is to pretent this is not a motive. Americans have been prone to have their monetary interests exploited by business interests under the mask of religious patronage before, but, given the ever creative ways capitalism expresses itself in our unusual cult(ure), we are often left uttering, "a sucker is born every minute." SY is a labrynth, with your money as the virginal sacrifice to the minotaur of fraud. This board is a strand from Ariadne's thread proferred before those wise enough to take a second look at the crooked walls. Cordially, E Subj: Re:BVena: thanks from Howie Date: 96-04-11 23:55:19 EDT From: ENOMNI OR, to put it more simply (i know i'm ultimately just a selfish pig), !!!"""$400+ F'N DOLLARS FOR A WHAT??????!!!!!!!""" 1st SY argument: And it's all dakshina. Answer: Well, lets look at it from the perspective of the Internal Revenue Code. Under even a Federally Applied Rate which at least calculates interest to recognize the changing value of gross income (the AFR indeed does lag), the free intensives offered by Baba doesn't even match $400 for inflationary interest. Query: did devotees give less dakshina to Baba? Is the $400 now for the more abundant shakti given to devotees as opposed to Baba? Is compulsory dakshina really dakshina? Second SY argument: the money is for overhead, SY is excused... Again, inflation hasn't risen $400 for the kind of costs incumbent upon what is supposed to be an ancient rite. Furthermore, what in the world does $400 worth of overhead on a weekend have to do with spiritual enlgihtenment???? 3rd proffered SY argument: your obviously ungrateful and too materialistic to comprehend the purpose... And, thank you....i'll keep my materialism, along with bills paid, food on the table, and peace of mind, thankyouverymuch. Subj: Landmark Forum Date: 96-04-12 06:44:56 EDT From: Dissent222 Someone wrote me asking about Landmark Forum - here is my reply: Thanks for the note. The Landmark Forum is the remains of the Werner Erhard empire. Erhard himself, the founder of est, and then the Forum, is in exile. He battered his wife and many of his mistresses, and incested two of his daughters, and owes millions of dollars to the IRS, because of the elaborate fraud in the structure of his business. So he's incognito somewhere, maybe Mexico. Very few of his disciples remained loyal to him, but those who did are now the heads of the Landmark Forum. They minimize their connection to Erhard, but he is their God. It is a watered down version of the old est training. The program is a sadistic, confrontational blend of scientology and Dale Carnegie and Napoleon Hill and a few other really crackpot old mind training schemes. The program pretends to shock people into letting go of all their "stuff", fast, badda-bing, badda-bang, badda-boom. By the end, you're supposed to "get it." What you get is intense sales pitches and extreme pressure to recruit other people, and continue to spend more and more money on endless follow up courses. All this is detailed thoroughly in "Outrageous Betrayal." Many SYDA people, in New York and Oakland, participate in the Forum. As if being exploited in one destructive cult isn't enough. Thanks again for writing.