Subj:  Re:Landmark Forum
Date:  96-04-12 10:05:03 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

More on Landmark Forum.  Did you know Werner Erhard's real name is Jack
Rosenberg, and that he deserted his first wife and 4 children, and married
another woman (and incested two of the daughters he had by her),  while he
was still married to the first wife he deserted?  And that his claims to
having "completed" all these issues with all these family members are only
his delusions - the family members he abused are still devastated by the
damage he has done.  

This is the man that so many people have trusted and believed in as their
savior.  So many people in SYDA are going to these workshops.  It's a bad
scene.

Subj:  The SYDA/est conflict, c. 1990
Date:  96-04-12 13:21:55 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear AOL readers,

More Siddha Yoga history connecting an est spinoff to the SYDA discipleship.
Did you hear about the SYDA mess in Houston during late 1990?  

After much three-way conflict between the center steering committee, center
participants, and GM/South Fallsburg, a SYDA center closed because SYDAites
were promoting LIFESPRING (an est spinoff) events during center programs.
Related to this is the story that around this time, Houston ashramites were
prohibited from doing seva (labor) because of their participation in
LIFESPRING.  

Subj:  You were there
Date:  96-04-12 15:52:00 EDT
From:  BVena           

Some of you were no doubt there:
 Years ago GM was giving a talk in SF. She was talking about some Indian
devotees that told her they were going to India. She said she told them not
to go. The plane crashed and they were all killed. She said derisively that's
what happens when you are not at the right place at the right time. Very
compassionate. Struck me as mean at the time but I held my breath.
 This was the same summer her brother used verses out of the Bamdoozlebag...I
mean Guru Gita to threaten people who weren't doing his twisted bidding. Held
my breath again. He also made some nasty comments about gays. They had been
rioting in San Francisco while he was there. The crowd roared with laughter.
One girl I know walked out on his talk. Pretty brave (she is not a
lesbian..not the point). Wish I had the guts to use my instincts but they
were busy being perverted by that whole SY guru is God thing. 
Oh yeah..Found out recently from a loyal devotee that a staff person in SF

with HIV was thrown out into the street when he came down with pneumonia. He
whined on "The ashram is not for sick people."  Guess they used him up. If
this is enlightenment they can keep it in the third world. Anyone committing
satee any time soon.
WGRL
Raj

Subj:  Re:You were there
Date:  96-04-12 18:24:07 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear BVena and others,

I wasn't in San Francisco, but I did hear a version of the plane crash story
from a center leader/long time disciple in another part of the country.  It
took the form of: 1) disciples didn't listen to the guru so now they are
dead.  2) she (the guru) "knew" the plane was going to crash before it did,
THEREFORE she is omniscient.

Yet another sterling example of the interpretative powers of the SYDA
disciple

Subj:  Want stupid? Here's stupid
Date:  96-04-12 18:26:36 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear BVena and others,

Speaking of incredibly stupid public statements by Gurumayi . . .

Were any of you in South Fallsburg when at a large public program she paused
in recognition of the "victims of the California earthquake?"  This "pause"
implied that there had been a tragedy, that there were victims, and so on.
After the program I immediately looked into what had happened.  Here's what I
learned.

Gurumayi's ominous and grandiose mention of this earthquake occurred
moments--literally minutes--after a breaking story had been aired that there
had been a California earthquake. (Guess who was chilling with the boob tube
just before doing a first set as param-sadguru . . .)

Here's my punch line:  this earthquake (which was years before the big one
that caused damage) caused NO SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE OR INJURY.  It was a little
blip on the seismograph, a mere curiosity for the seismologists--little more.

Gurumayi had apparently miscalculated and made a South Fallsburg "spiritual
event" out of a nothing on the news that she had misinterpreted. I guess she
wanted to create some kind of grand "impression," she wanted to use the
convenient material at hand as shtick fodder.

Unlike the plane crash story, which "worked out" for her, the earthquake
story didn't turn into a legend of the guru's omniscience, to be whispered by
oldtimers to newcomers.   

The earthquake story is a clear illustration of the kind of cheesy
self-aggrandizing gall that keeps fraud-gurus afloat.. 

Subj:  Re:Want stupid? Here's stupid
Date:  96-04-12 20:53:24 EDT
From:  ENOMNI          

Dear Comrades,
For your amusement and entertainment, I thought I should continue my duty to
analyze responses on this board by SY supporters:


<<HELLO I  could tell from what you wrote that you had not met GURUMAYI .>>

What is not being said here: if you met Gurumayi, you'd love and accept all
that she did because she can do no wrong.

<<first let me tellyou that I have live EDin the ashram with GURUMAYI
FROM83-90>>

What is not being said explicitly here: If you had lived there you would not
be lying and saying bad things. Therefore because you are reporting bad
things you must not have lived there. A transparent attempt at syllogism.

<<THERE are two ways to talk to gurumayi,>>

Actually there are thre ways, if you are rich and famous you qualify for a
private audience because you are an "SC"--or special consideration person.

<<The darshan line>>

Not really: In increasing proportion, those who seek to address Gurumayi in
darshan are escorted to the side by either an ashram therapist, swami, or
other designated seer. Additionally, those who contemplate speaking to her
have at times witnessed public humiliation first hand.

<<or write her>>

Last I heard, via the Darshan Secretary's Office, all letters addressed to
Gurumayi are "offered" to Nityananda (meaning they sit in a basket for a day
or whatever in the temple), and then they are burned.

<<nothing in this yoga is hidden>>

The statement is self-explanatory.

<<IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY TO GURUMAYI SAY IT TO HER FACE OR
TAKE A
HIKE>>

This is mere emotionalism and posturing. When one's opponents are irrational,
do not engage. Thus says Sun Tzu in the Art of War.

<< your talking thru someone elese eyes who might have had a experance,>>

Again, the experience argument. The assumption is that at some point
experience over-rides and disqualifies critical thinking and therefore has
more value. 

<< so take a hike or face the fire>>

A common behaviour in adherants to cult systems is the belief that their
system is the toughest out there. There is a pride of asceticism. Facing the
fire, the notion that increasing contact with the Guru equates with speedy
evolution perpetuates the myth of superiority over SY's non-adherants and
offers an indirect apologetics for discomforting experiences at SY. Thus the
web is weaved.

Well, hope you all enjoyed, 
E

Subj:  Re:Want stupid? Here's stupid
Date:  96-04-12 21:25:06 EDT
From:  ENOMNI          

Again, a little more for, just add popcorn.......

Km2kc had a second post:           

<<to all the people who love  GURUMAYI,>>

To use SY's own scapegoat philosophy in addition to a Jungian response: it is
hard for me to imagine loving someone you never REALLY got to know other than
through a ritualistic setting; hearing talks, attempts to address her in a
long line amidst loud music, etc. Consequently, I wonder about the role of
PROJECTION in all of this and how SY operates as a means towards constructed
that projection by giving one an interpretation of ultimately neutral events.

<<Iwill tell off the people who have saidbad thingsabout our master and you
should too lets show some fire here and then we can have satsang>>

First:Yes, it's true, Baba said if someone ever says bad things about the
Guru then you should spit in their face. A far cry from the western Socratic
tradition that acts as a check to otherwise unquestioned faith.
Second: Question: does "tough" experiences in the ashram equate with "fire."
If thats fire,....boy, am i shaking. Satsang:does satsang=party line?
Cordially, 
E

Subj:  est gossip
Date:  96-04-13 02:28:40 EDT
From:  Soloflyr11      

don't know the details or if this is true but just thought you might like to
hear the rumor that i heard.  i heard that replacing george is a woman that
was est-werner's assistant.....  so the connections go on?  or maybe there's
nothing to it....

Subj:  SYDA and Erhard
Date:  96-04-13 06:09:17 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Solo, Catherine Parrish is the new George Afif, except of course she's not
also having an affair with Gurumayi and seducing women in the ashram.
Catherine was once the Exec. Officer of the Hunger Project, Erhard's brazen
scheme to collect money in the name of ending hunger without actually giving
any of that money to any organization or person that had anything to do with
ending hunger.  OK, he gave a few thousand of the millions he collected to
Oxfam, once.  So Catherine Parrish ran that for Werner.  She and her husband
Bill were both very active in est and the Forum and were high-ups in the
Werner Erhard world.

Subj:  Healthy social environment
Date:  96-04-13 09:21:53 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear Enomni,

Keep those analyses coming!  Your zombie analysis was great, whether or not
the zombie in question was conceived of in vivo, or in vitro by some Dr.
Moreau-type.  And that "sadhkak" may very well have been a real zombie--it's
hard to tell sometimes, without a larger "sample."  

Enomni, among those in the "duck gallery" that the sane here have to contend
with are:

1.  SYDA zombies,

2.  freelance psychos who aren't connected to SYDA but see Shankaracharya
when they look in the mirror, 

3.  people imitating SYDA zombies (if your hypothesis is correct),

4.  SYDA authorities lurking and trying to find out our identities in various
ways.

Nothing like a healthy social environment!  

Subj:  changes
Date:  96-04-13 19:43:13 EDT
From:  BVena           

It has been reported that the scene in SY is a changin. Out are the old
public programs, and contact with the guru(except VIPs). In....courses,
courses, courses. What means this. Simply put, the end of SY. Why is this you
ask? It hit me like a Joan Crawford coat hanger. WHO'S GOING TO DO THE WORK!
Not the VIP's. Yuppy yoga can not exist with out a mindless slave class
holding it up. You think any of the precious suited, saried glitteratty that
are willing to plop down $200 for an afternoon of Ram Butler telling you
what's wrong with you under the guise of a Karma course are going to peel a
potato? Gasp for air! Who is going to unload the truck loads of fruit you buy
from the guru to offer to the guru? "Not I" said the hen. 
Without the necessary massage of the darshan line the whole setup is going to
crash and burn faster than the Gay Republicans Caucus. In SY like there
people are goint to look at each other and say "what the #@$^&* are we doing?
The only thing the panting under class that has always done all the labor in,
say, South Fallsburg has ever had to look forward too at the end of their
toil is a pat on the head from the guru.  Without that...Gone will be the
days of blissful kitchen chopping tables full of young and middle aged women
arguing about which one of them really was Cleopatra in a past life. And
forget about getting up at 3 A.M. To beat out scones for people who always
get seated way ahead of you at any and all programs.  You just can not sell
enough Herba Life to your fellow ashramites to pay for a seat at the banquet.
WGRL
Raj  

Subj:  Question re SYDA demographics
Date:  96-04-13 22:28:23 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear BVena and others,

Tell more about what you've been hearing regarding changes in SYDA
demographics.  You note that SYDA depends on slave labor, and that with the
erosion of the slave class, SYDA is in trouble.  Here's what I've been
hearing:

Some say the demographics of the SYDA underclass has changed.   Some say that
European and South Americans are increasingly becoming the source populations
for the SYDA sucker underclass labor force.  (Anyone out there have any hard
data to confirm this?  Is it just an atrophying American base that makes it
appear as if there has been an increase in the other populations?)

Americans are turning away from cleaning SYDA toilets as their activity of
choice.  After all there are other trendier gurus on the American horizon who
are attracting the new generation of young, spiritual-minded adults. 

SYDA is a middle-aged cult, one that just isn't all that sexy to the informed
spiritual consumer.  Still, there remain virgin populations around the globe
ready for SYDA to harvest, populations that have not had the benefit of,
shall we say, experience.  My guess is, SYDA's new tour, with the help of
savvy marketing minds, is designed to ferret out that sucker population. 

There is no reason to think that Europeans or South Americans are inherently
more sucker-like than Americans.  The problem at the present moment is, they
don't have ready access to inside information about SYDA, nor to some of the
trendier other "competing" gurus and paths.

You are right in noting that the SYDA "glitteraty" don't do the scut work
that is required for SYDA to operate.  Point of information:  I know members
of that "glitteraty" group who turned tail and ran when the New Yorker hit
the fan. The New Yorker got them where they live:  it embarrassed them in the
eyes of their non-SYDA peers.  Why repair the Gucci bag of SYDA when you can
just buy another designer spiritual trip around the corner? 

Is what I've been hearing true--that SYDA has been increasingly harvesting
from non-American populations?  And doesn't the avoidance of India speak
volumes? 

Subj:  Re: class/caste consciousness
Date:  96-04-14 03:42:00 EDT
From:  ENOMNI          

Bvena raises two good points:
1) The inaccessibility of the guru concurrent to an increased emphasis on
courses.--SY's traditional emphasis, borrowed selectively from Hinduism is
upon the guru, i.e., access to the guru's physical space has been a main
selling point. W/o access, juxtaposed to the increased proclivity to place
gurumayi on a more eminent throne, the wallowing masses must swallow mere
courses. This is a very significant flaw and inherent contradiction within
the system----> One argument emphasizes the inner guru: but if that is so,
then drop SY and pray within anywhere on the planet. At the same time,
another argument is profferred the masses: get closer to the guru, go to
darshan, take intensive, go to ganeshpuri.  How long can this sell?

2) The class/caste system at the ashram--SC vs. what? do they have a name?
Grunt work done under a rationalization of spiritual progress, coinciding
with an attempt to use such work to focus the mind--such runs the argument.
Mere "envy" reduces the argument of those who would hold that some do
more/all of the grunt work while other's karma/samskaras dictate "subtler"
work. For a long time SY seems to have sought legitimization by the rich and
famous--there presence utilized, displayed,.....The simple fact of the
matter, as the revolution of human consciousness runs, whether compelled by
envy or insight, usually the slave class develop a resentment of those who
seem to be having a good time at their expense.

Cordially,
and pass the cup.

Subj:  syda caste system
Date:  96-04-14 05:33:15 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Yes, the syda underclass - who are they now?  GM kicked out most of the
families and children from So. Falls.  Families with kids want more space,
more services, they have too many needs - they were just swept out of there,
with a few exceptions.  The kicked out ones probably don't know just how
lucky they are.

In GSP, it's always been the Euros and Aussies that formed the underclass.  I
just got a long letter from an old time Aussie - he said they hadn't had a
clue about the New Yorker article there.  So, hey, import the Aussies -
they're idealistic, modest kind of people - the perfect new SYDA underclass -
also somewhat used to Colonialism. 

OHHHH- that's what SYDA is really about!  I JUST GOT IT!!!!!  

INDIAN VICTIMS OF BRITISH COLONIAL SYSTEM GET THEIR REVENGE ON THE
WESTERN
WORLD BY FORCING THEM TO LISTEN TO GURUMAYI SING, THEREBY SO
DAMAGING THE
MENTAL FACULTIES OF THESE AURAL VICTIMS THAT THEY BECOME WILLING
TO SORT OUT
DIRTY PIECES OF RICE ALL DAY AND CALL IT ENLIGHTENMENT!!!!!!!!!

Subj:  tantric leela 1/4
Date:  96-04-14 09:33:31 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 1 OF 4

Dear AOL readers,

Some SYDA people have explained away Baba Muktananda's alleged sexual
misconduct as "TANTRIC RITUAL."  This kind of "sexual tantra" is a standard
operating procedure for other cult leaders.  

SYDA is like other cults in so many ways, obviously.  Even so, the following
description of someone else's "sexual leela" is similar in a particularly
striking way.to the accounts given by Muktananda victims.

Compare the following to the kind of "ritual" Baba Muktananda's "girlfriends"
have reported.  Parallels include: organ dysfunction, misogynist overtones,
pseudo-royal ceremonial surroundings, and appeal to crazy metaphysical
explanations.  It's a must read for anyone following the SYDA saga! 

SEE PARTS 2 TO 4

Subj:  tantric leela 2/4
Date:  96-04-14 09:35:10 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 2 OF 4

<<<BEGIN QUOTED MATERIAL (FROM BENT CORYDON"S BOOK ON HUBBARD,
1992)

 "I Let Him Undress Me Without Resisting" 

In late 1975, I was told to report to the Hubbard Communications Office. The
senior officer there at the time, informed me that I was to report to the
Fifield Manor and go to the seventh floor. She gave me no other information.
I did this without knowing why I was going.
At the Manor, I was directed to the elevator and went to the seventh floor.
The entire floor was elaborately furnished to the point of suffocation. An
S.O. member appeared and showed me to a door that was partly open.
I went into a very large living room with heavy curtains, pile carpet,
overstuffed chairs and clean to the point of obsession.
Sitting on one of the chairs, drinking what looked like sherry, was a
heavy-set older man. He had reddish grey hair, slightly long in the back. He
was wearing a white shirt, black pants, black tie, and black shoes, highly
polished.
He didn't say a word and slowly got up, motioned me to follow him into the
next room.
I didn't know if it was Hubbard, and wondered if I was to have either an
auditing session or an interview. I followed him.
I found myself in a lavish bedroom. This still didn't worry me as sometimes
interviews and sessions were held in bedrooms at the Hollywood Inn for staff.
There was a small table set up with an E-meter on it and again I thought
about a session.
Without a word he suddenly began to undress me.
I was repelled by him.
I did not want to sleep with him. Yet, I felt really chilled and cold to the
bone at that moment.
I acutely sensed real fear and danger in the room. In an instant I realized
the calculated power coming from this person. If I resisted I knew that my
punishment would be extreme.
His eyes were so blank, no emotion, no interaction, nothing was there.
I made the decision to not resist no matter what happened. I realized it
would be a bad mistake for me to do so. He seemed to be completely divorced
from reality. He was so strange that I realized that if I provoked him he
could be extremely dangerous.
I let him undress me without resisting.
I was totally unprepared for what happened next.
He lay on top of me.
As far as I can tell he had no erection. However, using his hand in some way
he managed to get his *TOS* inside me.
Then for the next hour he did absolutely nothing at all. I mean nothing!>>>
SEE PART 3

Subj:  tantric leela 3/4
Date:  96-04-14 09:36:33 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 3 

CONTINUE QUOTED MATERIAL<<<After the first twenty-five minutes I became about
as frightened as I have ever been in my life. I felt as if in some perverse
way he was telling me that he hated me as a female. I then began to feel that
my mind was being ripped away from me by force.
That was the worst of all. I really felt he "coveted" an aspect of my
personality and he wanted it. This was weird, total control on a level I
could not fathom at that time. I had no idea what was happening.* (*This
sounds like a form of"spiritual vampirism," a kind of"Black Sex-Magic.")

After half an hour I really thought I was going crazy. I couldn't move my
body from underneath him, and I could feel he still had no erection.
He wouldn't look at me, but instead kept his head averted to the side and
just gazed into space.
I had to discipline myself to keep from screaming because I felt I was having
a nervous breakdown.
Then I got the terrible thought that he was dead. He was hardly breathing.
Then I thought he would kill me too. My thoughts became very morbid.
After an hour he got up and walked out.
I just lay there for ten minutes. Then mechanically I got dressed. Instantly
after that I began crying hysterically. I cried and cried and cried.
I wasn't afraid of becoming pregnant. I was so afraid of whatever had been
going on in this man's head.
Finally when I couldn't cry anymore, I went downstairs and took a bus back to
ASHO. [American St. Hill Organization]

I didn't say a word to anyone.  

Months went by after this. I got my period on schedule which made me feel a
little gratified at least.
One night I was working late. Gerry Larson, who was now the deputy C.O., came
into my area and asked if I wanted a ride back to the Inn. This seemed a
little strange as he was a senior officer, OT7, Native State, class 7
auditor; but I accepted.
On the way in the car he asked me if I had ever fallen in love sexually in
the S.O. I said "No."
"I think that's true," he said, "because you are much too powerful theta-wise
to be controlled."
When we got to the Inn we went up in the elevator together and as I was about
to get off at my floor he said he needed to talk to me.
I said "O. K." as he was an officer and I thought a friend. Also he was
married....
We went to the eighth floor of the Inn into a little bedroom. He sat

on the bed and started talking about eight being the symbol for infinity and
the highest level of OTness.
I thought that was interesting, but couldn't figure out why he was telling me
this.
& "Ron works in eight-year cycles," he said. "You were born in the eighth
month of the year (August).>>>

SEE PART 4 

Subj:  tantric leela 4/4
Date:  96-04-14 09:37:23 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 4 OF 4

CONTINUE QUOTED MATERIAL<<<<Orders had come down lines that you are to
conceive a child." he said.

This really shocked me.
"I can't tell you who sent the order," he said. "Your abilities are such that
the Sea Org needs you to have a baby."
Without another word he pulled me up, hurriedly undressed me and threw me on
the bed.
Again l felt the same feeling that I mustn't fight him.
He got undressed and for the next hour the exact same performance that had
happened to me at the Manor was repeated....
Afterwards I felt ripped apart mentally. As he was getting undressed I
couldn't stand it anymore- I was in tears again I said:


"Sir, I can't understand what you are doing to me."
He looked at me and said:

"Heidi, you haven't seen the OT materials for 017 yet, but you know what you
are. You are an invisible spirit operating your body. You and I actually live
in a totally different universe, far away from this one. This Earth, this
galaxy, our bodies are just pictures we are mocking up to play and have a
game. Sex for a thetan is nothing. It's the postulates and control of mind
and body that is the prize.
"If I postulate you will have a baby from the viewpoint of my home universe,
then you will. You are under my command coming from far away. I can make your
body do what I want."
Then he left.
I was so mixed up. I had been trained to believe everything he said, yet I
couldn't believe he had just told me what he had.
I felt really defenseless. I cried all night.
A month later I got my period. A month after that my senior called me into
his room.
"Go to ethics!" he said.
The "ethics officer" assigned me a condition of treason because I had
disobeyed command intention and was not pregnant.
I had to do amends for this "crime." 
After this I never had any other sexual relations in the Sea Org up to the
point where I left. It was made apparent that I was a failure in this area.
--------
Heidi did her amends. She was put on a special program. She was to eat by
herself. The diet consisted of coffee for breakfast, liquid protein for lunch
. . .>>> END QUOTED MATERIAL

Subj:  Re:Losing my Religion folder
Date:  96-04-14 09:45:57 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear Enomni,

Please don't leave the AOL boards!  In a desperate attempt to keep you here,
I've posted the best material I could come up with under short notice as a
four-part message in ETHICS FOLDER.  Hey, where else can you find subtle and
tasteful discourse like this?  

Consider the four-part message to be my "Jyota" to you (imagine a Brian
Denehy look-alike in a sari waving a tray counterclockwise, armpit hair
intact). 

Your argument analyses have truly been the meat and potatoes--tofu and
potatoes, excuse me--of the AOL boards! 

Subj:  Re: The Box
Date:  96-04-15 03:06:32 EDT
From:  ENOMNI          

QUESTION (s): Is SY a system? OR does it possess the requisite degree of
insight to know that explanations fall short? Is SY a box? A golden cage? 

Subj:  The Box/SYDA logic 1/2
Date:  96-04-15 08:58:30 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 1 OF 2

Dear Enomni,

You mention the conceptual box SYDA folk live in.  I found this person living
in a box over in alt.yoga.

BEGIN QUOTED MATERIAL<<<Gurumayi is a sadguru.  She is not a con artist.  I
base this on my own
personal experience, not on any blind faith.  I experienced shaktipat when
I met Gurumayi.  The experience was a sudden surprise.  I had no prior
knowledge of shaktipat, no expectations that I might receive it.  It
wasn't until much later that I read descriptions of shaktipat and
understood what had happened.  I understand Gurumayi to be a channel of
divine grace.>>>  <<<Worshiping the outer form  of the Guru without seeing
the whole world, and yourself as an extension of the Guru is clearly a
misunderstanding of the Guru Principle.>>>END QUOTED MATERIAL

SEE PART 2
Subj:  The Box/SYDA logic 1/2
Date:  96-04-15 08:58:30 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Subj:  The Box/SYDA logic 2/2
Date:  96-04-15 09:00:17 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 2

This statement, together with the context that formed it, points to standard
SYDA-logic moves:

1.  THE SUCKER JUMP--Gurumayi (Shoko Asahara, Rajneesh) is a sadguru BECAUSE
I had an unexplained experience that I associate with her (them). 

2.  DEATH OF CRITICAL FACULTIES--IF documents describe some aspect of my
experience, THEN the explanations that attach to the description are to be
taken as "the truth." 

3.  FANTASY-FEEDING--In zombie-logic move #2 (death of critical faculties),
the vaguest printed description of an experience will be accepted as an
adequate "match."  

4.  THE BRAINWASH--In zombie-logic move #1 (the sucker jump), all "big"
experiences--strong emotions, feeling of "love," "kriyas," good luck--should
be automatically attributed TO THE SADGURU.  

5.  HUBRISTIC GULLIBILITY--Having an experience MEANS "I am evolving, I am
spiritual" if someone says so.

6.  SEMANTIC BACKPEDALING--Adding the word "PRINCIPLE" to "guru" makes things
nicey-nicey.  Adding the word "INNER" to "guru" supposedly proves to the
general public that a zombie is not a zombie.


Subj:  Experiences&cult babble 1/2
Date:  96-04-16 00:46:03 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 1 OF 2

Dear Enomni,

Your comments about the vacuity of the "inner guru" concept, as used by SYDA
disciples, are right on.  Here's a little more on SYDAites use of the term
"inner guru."

Dear AOL readers,

If someone has an unusual experience at a cult location, one would hope that
they would not jump to conclusions.  To conclude that the guru is divine
would be of course unwarranted.  

But also unwarranted is the conclusion that "THE EXPERIENCE WAS A PRODUCT OF
MY OWN INNER GURU."   How so?  Is that a satisfying answer for the wide range
of unexplained phenomena we are talking about?   Isn't "inner guru"
reductionism as lame and superficial as "outer guru" reductionism?  Isn't the
backpedaling "inner guru" argument an ignoramus smoke-screen, something that
today has become a din of dumbness, a safety-valve mechanism for the gaseous
buildup from fallen gurus?   Isn't the "inner guru" line partly to blame for
the stoppage of ALL forward-moving dialogue regarding the unexplained
affective phenomenon seen at Shoko Asahara's, chiropractor's offices, fasting
locations, Santeria rituals, SYDA, etc?

Hey, Hitler followers had big "experiences."  This is interesting.  This
should be looked into.  There may be important discoveries about human makeup
just around the corner.  The last thing we need is the misleading and
distracting "inner guru" semantics of some stupid New Age cult as a
foundation for this inquiry.  

SEE PART 2
Subj:  Experiences&cult babble 2/2
Date:  96-04-16 00:47:53 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 2 OF 2

Dear AOL readers,

To the extent that the term "inner guru" can be a placeholder for EVERYTHING
under the sun, those crippled with cult-tech between their lobes will
forevermore feel secure in calling anything they want the "inner guru."  This
semantic move is taught at the SYDA cult. It is the cult which teaches
zombies that the universal semantic placeholder, "inner guru," is better than
"Santa Claus," or "my discredited guru," or "stimulated nerve plexus 10773b."
SYDA-Zombies' willingness to accept the kind of absurd, autistic reduction
signified by the term "inner guru" (as they use it) is, in my opinion, a
product of brainwashing.  

You would think that some would say:  "something is going on that I don't
understand, and it is entirely possible that an instant answer, a totalizing
semantic term, will not suffice."  

SYDA people don't say this.  The immature need for instant and total answers
makes otherwise intelligent people jump at autistic cult reductionism.  The
people lining up to bow to Gurumayi illustrate this vividly.  SYDA-people are
answer people, party-line people, cult-babble people--New Age parrots.  Go to
a SYDA center and ask questions (with a straight face) if you want to confirm
this.  If you raise eyebrows, just say: "The inner guru made me do it."  That
always calms them right down.

Someday, perhaps, people will sincerely investigate the experiential side of
SYDA, Rajneesh, Pentacostals, etc.--free from what Shridevi has aptly called
"the plate between the lobes."  All these superstitious people babbling about
their narcissistic sensations and inner gurus and flim-flam rot make today
seem like a second Dark Ages.  

Subj:  scientology tech
Date:  96-04-16 02:07:28 EDT
From:  Shridevi        

Howie - I read your Scientology rape quote.

I must say, I didn't find it at all humorous.  

My body is sick.  

This feeling of feeling "vampirized" - this is not anything esoteric.  This
is what rape is all about.

What is being stolen and murdered is this woman's womanhood - 
her beauty and her humanity.  

And I'm sure that Ram Butler would find something spiritual about it if it
was his cult.

Wait a minute.  

Subj:  Re:Experiences&cult babble 2/2
Date:  96-04-16 02:10:30 EDT
From:  Shridevi        

About this question "do you not have ANY experience from during your old SY
days that you feel showed you something real about yourself??"  I would have
to say - I've been having such experiences for a long time prior to the old
days and for a long time since.  Has no causal connection to SY whatsoever.

This is connected to the idea that these experiences are somehow "more
profound than his or her normal day-to-day waking consciousness."  Actually,
I think when we take a fresh look - "day to day" consciousness" is a lot more
far out than we originally thought.

Most "spiritual" people I know have at some point had the idea (maybe they
still do) that somehow they were having more profound, deeper, more esoteric
experiences than everybody else because of some special connection they had
through the inner guru or their practices or whatever.

Sometime before we die I think it is a good idea to let that one go and check
out the universe we are living in and the trip we call humanity . . .

Just some thoughts,

Shridevi

Subj:  Re:Mahamandaleshwar
Date:  96-04-15 23:29:49 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Bhav,

You ask <<<Can anyone here tell me what a Mahandaleshwar is?>>>

Here's a brief gloss taken from a recent circular.

<<<WHAT IS A MAHAMANDALESHWAR?
About 1200 years ago when the Hindu Dharma was losing its glory, Adi
Shankaracharya decided to protect and propagate the Hindu Dharma by setting
up four Mutts (spiritual centers) in all the four directions o:f India. He
set up Jyotir Mutt in the north, Govardhan Mutt in the east Dwarka Mutt in
the west and Shringeri Mutt in the South. He also rejuvenated four Dhams
(major temples) in the four directions - Shri Badrinathji in the north, Shri
Jagannathji in the east Shri Dwarkaji in the west and. Shri Rameshwar in the
South.

After the passage of time, some obstacles started creeping up in the path of
propagation. of Hindu Dharma. To help overcome these obstacles a need for
physical prowess was felt. It was at this time that Adi Shankaracharya
established 7 Akharas namely M:ahanirvani Akhara, Niranjani Akhara, Juna
Alchara., Atal Akhara, Avahan Akhara, Agni Akhara, and Anand Akhara.

Adi Shankaracharya equipped these Akharas with arms and spiritual bliss and
directed them to do Bhajan and observe penance. He even allowed the use of
arms to overcome obstacles in the way of propagating Dharma. Equipped with
the knowledge of Shankaracharya and strength of the Akharas, the work of the
propagation of Hindu Dharma went on smoothly.

After sometime, some slackness was experienced in the propagation of Hindu
Dharma. It was at this time that the Shankaracharyas started ignoring the
Akharas which with ll their physical strength had been on forefront of the
mission for propagation of Vedic Hindu Dharma. A rift therefore cropped up
between the two. In spite of this setback the Akharas strongly believed in
expanding the base of Hindu Dharma and. unitedly resolved to honor and accept
Sannyasins of Paramhans nature as their Acharyas. The question arose as to
what title should be conferred on these Acharyas, and later it was
unanimously decided that they should be called "Mahamandaleshwars", and that
was how the first seven Mahamandaleshwars came into being. Those
Mahamandaleshwars then took the task of propagating the Hindu Dharma in a big
way. As the work progressed., a need was felt by Mahamandaleshwars for more
fellow saints who could share their work. Subsequently more Mahamandaleshwars
were installed by Acharyas of Akharas and the tradition still continues.
Later, the smaller Akharas were merged with other Akharas and now we have
three main Akharas -  Mahanirvani Akhara; Niranjani Akhara; and Juna Akhara.

Venerable Gurudev Nityanandji. was installed as Mahamandaleshwar of
Mahanirvani. .Akhara at Suratgiri Bangla in. Haridwar on May 12th, 1995.>>>

Subj:  Brain-concussion-style buzz
Date:  96-04-16 08:18:12 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear Shridevi,

You say

<<<Actually, I think when we take a fresh look - "day to day" consciousness"
is a lot more far out than we originally thought.>>>

Agreed, 1,000 percent.  Getting stoned day in and day out on practices, or
frying up the nerves to the point where one is seeing brilliant light when
they close their eyes, or getting a permanent case of shooting energy and
jerking body motions isn't the goal of this human's existence.  

The SYDA-style wayout experiences, such as people being carried out of the
Intensive halls in the Christ position or bouncing around in the lotus
posture, and so on, are overrated.  They form a crucial part of SYDA's carnie
con, however.

Narcissistic overload is at the root of people who cling to "inner goo"
rhetoric,  as if it were a preferable alternative to experiencing life in all
of its colors.   

Even if narcissists are at bottom just "looking for love," or "a way out of
loneliness," or even just any alternative to a "profound inner sense of
humdrumitude and mediocrity,"  they go over the line when their actions
include public endorsements of a sadistic cult's fantasy world.  If only
their narcissism were confined to "navel-staring," Baba wouldn't have had
Hanuman's army willing and ready to make his sex table and all the rest.

Well, time to go do a fifteen hour day of seva so I can cop a
brain-concussion-style buzz, er um . . . --what I meant to say is, so I can
become spiritually enlightened.

Subj:  What about Shaktipat?
Date:  96-04-16 12:13:36 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

A lot of the people who communicate with me about syda want to know how come
they got shaktipat if the guru is corrupt?  

I'm reprinting here an alt.yoga newsgroup letter from a former Amrit Desai
(Kripalu) devotee:

"The ability to confer shaktipat *can* co-exist with immoral guru behavior. 
Amrit Desai gathered hundreds of followers, many of whom followed him
after receiving shaktipat from him... I was one of them.  One minute I was
sitting on a dirty rug in Chicago, the next I found myself bathed in the
light of God.  Some people questioned this "Aha!"  experience of mine,
noting that these dramatic experiences are oftimes illusory, ie, not real,
not true..  I maintained then, and maintain now, that that transformative
moment was the most "real" experience in my life.  My life changed, and 
the effects continue to echo through every aspect of my existence.

But.... Amrit Desai has subsequently acknowledged having had abusive 
relationships with a number of female disciples.  He has repeatedly lied 
to the board at Kripalu, and to the community there.

Both are true.  He was a powerful teacher, who absolutely had the ability
(or power, or skill, or grace) to confer shaktipat and to open spiritual
doors for others.  He also lied repeatedly, sexually abused women who
trusted him, manipulated his disciples, and milked cash out of the Kripalu
Fellowship. 

It is very hard to stand in a space where these wildly contradictory 
statements are both true... but there we are.

I find the same bewildering dichotomy in the SYDA story.... have 
thousands of people received shaktipat from Baba and Gurumayi?  Yes.  
Have their teachings been a powerful transformative agent, encouraging 
spiritual growth for their followers?  Yes again.  BUT are there 
fundamental problems with Baba's behavior, Gurumayi's behavior, which 
seem to undermine the entire teaching?  One more time... yes.

Again.... It is very hard to stand in a space where these wildly
contradictory statements are both true... but there we are. " END QUOTED
MATERIAL

I know I'm a real big mouth whistle-blower and sound very unspiritual to some
of you.  And sure, I have some ideas about self-suggestion, and hypnotic mind
control techniques, that go toward explaining some of shaktipat.  But the
truth is I don't know the answer, and I don't like holding the ambivalence
about it, but, as the post above says, there we are.

One big difference about Kripalu devotees, though:  they dealt with their
guru's abusiveness.  They expelled him, and they are not lying or covering up
the truth.  Big big difference from the syda devotees.  

Subj:  Essay about SYDA
Date:  96-04-16 20:42:46 EDT
From:  FreeMan789      

(THIS IS A REPEAT OF A PREVIOUS MESSAGE)

I have posted an essay in the Hinduism File Library.  It is entitled "SYDA -
Abuse in Religious Groups"  It is about 20 pp; it is the final essay of a
master's level grad. student in social work who was on the SYDA staff for
about 11 years.

I am posting it here in the hopes that it will stimulate discussion about
SYDA and many of the problems within SYDA that do not get addressed
internally.  It is posted in the spirit of open, honest discussion.

To print out the following instructions, click on the file menu above, turn
on your printer, and press Print on the above file menu.

To download this file, go to the Hinduism File Library.  Press "download
now".  Do not at any time double click on the selected file listing, or you
will only get a small part of the essay.  When the file is downloaded, save
it.   Then get out of AOL.  Open up your word processor.  Open this file into
your word processor.  Save it.  You can print it out or read it in your word
processor.

If you have questions or comments you do not wish to make public, write to:
an569424@anon.penet.fi


Subj:  But is it really?
Date:  96-04-16 21:35:17 EDT
From:  ENOMNI          

Dissent222 posed an intersting question in the other folder:      

<<A lot of the people who communicate with me about syda want to know how
come they got shaktipat if the guru is corrupt?>>

The answer to this question is inherent within the question itself. In other
words--did they really get shaktipat, "the transference of divine grace"? If
they said so, by what standard/means do they determine this so? If it is
through an experience, then there god is subordinate to experience. If it is
through a vague "knowing" then their god is subject to vagueness.
  
Often in SY, the experiential bias is the means towards such determination as
when Dissent's quoted material continues with a description of such an
experience:

<< One minute I was sitting on a dirty rug in Chicago, the next I found
myself bathed in the light of God.>>

Again, pretty tall statement. At issue here, and less relevant is whether the
experience occured or not. Assuming it did, no doubt whatever provokes one to
call an experience "the light of God" is no doubt emotional. Yet, we are all
aware of the tendency to melo-dramatize, hyperbolize, and stretch a
description to make an experience over-relevant. Indeed the temptation upon
having an experience beyond linguistic expression is to label it as divine. 
But this is assuming the experience happened.

My problem is this: while i don't doubt that such experiences happen--i doubt
there interpretation for a very simple reason. --the definition of god does
not exist and shouldn't by nature. God has no "de" in which to be
"finite"--Rather God, by nature is "infinite"--and as soon as one is prone to
encapsulate an experience--and God within a description of that
experience--then one has demonstrated the lack of an experience of God. 

In fact, the pre-occupation with experience talk is to miss the boat
entirely. It is a form of idolatry of a sort. As both Shridevi and Howie
point out, the experience of real life is the point--And, i would add, such
spiritual experiences are a subset of the vast panarama of experienced human
life. 

Cordially,
E

Subj:  see, speak, & hear no evil
Date:  96-04-17 10:07:35 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear AOL readers,

A few quotes, with commentary.

<<<I remember days and days in Oakland with Muktananda where it seemed we'd
all just be sitting there - just sitting there - it seemed no one thinking -
nothing to be done - nothing to attain - everything at peace and perfect -
after awhile no Guru, no devotees - to me that is the beauty and that is the
state and understanding I received from Muktananda or at least got a firm
glimpse of.>>>

Everyone knows how to hang out, whether it be on streetcorners, mountaintops,
or DMV lines.  In my neighborhood you don't need to worship an alleged child
molester to learn how to "chill." 

<<<One thing I learned is that too much talking, too much making a point, too
much having an opinion only leads me (and you) further from where we all
deserve to live and the way we deserve to feel.>>>

What we have here is the party line about "not thinking, not doing, not
striving."  Pure Gurumayi-yoga, also known as SHEEP yoga, or LOSER yoga.
Talking this kind of party line leads onlookers to continue to stereotype
Eastern thought as escapist and narcissistic.

I guess it was Shakespeare's bad fortune to have been so spiritually bereft
as to have to write all those plays; if only he had found SYDA before, he
could have shut off his useless verbal thinking centers.

 Gurumayi used the three monkey statue as a prop--"see no evil, speak no
evil, hear no evil"--when asked if she were a Siddha right after her
succession.  She did that instead of giving a straight answer.  Her appeal to
cognitively-challenged monkeys is ironic, isn't it?-- given the bad press on
SYDA since, and given the present-day denial behavior of her flock. 

If you're looking for people who endlessly opine, and whose life's purpose is
to meddle in other people's lives, Ram Butler and Gurumayi are perfect
examples.  Of course, zombies will say the "rules" for them are different
because they are authorized by SYDA.  

Subj:  Re:What about Shaktipat?
Date:  96-04-17 13:44:54 EDT
From:  ENOMNI          

To Freeman,
Congratulations on a most insightful paper re cults. Reading it is "chilling"
because I have sought to critique SYDA on a metaphysical level, i.e., their
flawed rationalization of a system. I sought to discredit and deconstruct
their system since I suffered no appearant abuses, e.g.,rape, public
humiliation, etc....and thus sought refrain talk on subjects I felt I had
little knowledge. However, with your paper, I can not help but feel that my
prior critiques seem to sustain a mask over what is ultimately a devious
organization at work. While I shall continue taking aim at an easy target, I
need to contemplate things anew. I highly reccomend its reading to all. Thank
you,
Cordially,
E

Subj:  Re:Essay about SYDA
Date:  96-04-17 18:21:51 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear FreeMan789 and others,

The new essay in the AOL Hinduism library on SYDA is an important document
that anyone involved in SYDA should read, and read carefully.  The author
analyzes the close similarity between cult abuse and better known forms of
sadistic abuse--rape, battering, incest.  The author also (in chilling
detail) not only reveals SYDA's sadistic core, but provides a context within
which to interpret and respond to it.  FreeMan789, your essay has given me a
great deal to think about.  It has forced me to think about things that I
normally don't--but should.  I consider it a major contribution to the
critical discussion of SYDA yoga, and thank you for it.

Subj:  Zappa on SYDAisms 1/3
Date:  96-04-17 21:25:42 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 1 OF 3

Dear Enomni,

You ask

<<<Does anyone here feel the level of intelligence rises in a group or drops?
When encountering SY or SY followers, have you experienced moments of
reflection where you've stepped back from what was going on to see how "real"
it all was or whether "contrived"? >>>

From the following, one might infer what Zappa would say to your question
about the relationship of intelligence to group dynamics, and would say to
those who demand an explanation for their "experiences."  

SEE PART 2
Subj:  Zappa on SYDAisms 2/3
Date:  96-04-17 21:26:40 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 2 OF 3

BEGIN QUOTED MATERIAL<<<WHO LOVES YA?

People have a desire to believe in "good luck," "angels," of one sort or
another, "devils" of one sort or another--"mysterious forces," which somehow
link back to a "godhead," or a "controlling force," or a "master plan,"
developed by some "All-Knowing Consciousness" that LOVES THEM, and wants to
make everything "okay" for them.

Why do people want THAT?  They're going to spend a lot of time trying to make
things from The Real World fit that mold. 

The minute something happens that doesn't follow the formula, they start
worrying.  It makes some of them psychotic--like the guy with the sword,
hacking up people on the Staten Island Ferry because Jesus told him to do it.

One reason people PRACTICE religion is that participation creates the
illusion of belonging to an extended family.  Whatever the
IMAGINARY-GUY-IN-THE-CLOUDS won't do for them (sometimes he's busy--inventing
crack; causing droughts; stirring up mischief here and there), their fellow
parishioners might.

SEE PART 3



Subj:  Zappa on SYDAisms 3/3
Date:  96-04-17 21:27:49 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 3 OF 3

CONTINUE QUOTED MATERIAL <<<"My mother didn't love me, my father didn't love
me, but my friends at the church think I'm a nice person--so we'll just climb
on this really bitchen water-slide here, and love the jumpin' be-jeezus out
of each other while we whiz downward . . ."

If you want to stand on the steps of ANY BUILDING (or waterslide), all
dressed up on a Sunday morning, for WHATEVER PURPOSE (A Christian business
discussion, perhaps), GREAT--go for it.

If you want to get together in any EXCLUSIVE SITUATION and have people LOVE
you, FINE--but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of THE
CLOUD-GUY who has THE BIG BOOK, who knows if you've been BAD OR GOOD--AND
CARES ABOUT ANY OF IT--to hang it all on THAT, folks, is the CHIMPANZEE part
of the brain working.

One of the reasons these evil industries have survived throughout the ages is
that the big guys have always made sure that the customers confuse the
"results" of their "prayers" with "the existence" of THE GUY ON THE CLOUD.

What people call "prayer" could just as easily be an unknown (or improperly
described) psychic phenomenon which manifests a TANGIBLE PHYSICAL RESULT.
Any group of people, focused on the same goal, might be able to aim an
UNKNOWN AMOUNT of an UNKNOWN ENERGY at some specific "target."  Presto:
"Prayer That Works."

(Frank Zappa, autobiography, p. 301-2)>>>END QUOTED MATERIAL

Subj:  Re:Essay about SYDA
Date:  96-04-18 03:04:51 EDT
From:  ENOMNI          


Howie and the rest of the universe,

So what is it then in the human condition that seeks this explanation of
things? What is it in the human condition that clings to a SYSTEM like a
security blanket? 

My little guess is that the abyss of nihilism yawned before many of those in
groups like SY. Rather than embark upon the initiative of true self-inquiry,
a set of ready made, quick answers in the form of a system, are offered to
them, like a bowl of fruit.  Consequently, SY offers an illusory boat to
cross the abyss yet. Better yet, a boat with holes.......

It is not that the abyss is the final end to humanity, but rather, our goal
is not to cross it and then deny it's existence but to learn how to swim in
it. Systems are antithetical to such a necessary process--and yet so alluring
in their anaesthesizing effect on numbing us to the emptiness of the abyss.

Just some reflections,
E

Subj:  Philosophical sausages
Date:  96-04-17 21:31:06 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear Enomni,

One last Zappa autobiography excerpt that seems to fit your recent post (p.
307-8).

BEGIN QUOTED MATERIAL <<<Just because a man is uneducated does not mean he is
without a life force.  He might say to himself:  "Sounds good to me--let's go
for it!"  Everybody has this energy, and the "disposable" portion is not
dependent on an individual's status in life, or how far he got with his
education.  (It might even be inversely proportional.) . . . I believe THE
REAL STUFF has NEVER been called by THE RIGHT NAME.  Everyone should have the
opportunity to figure out their own "name" for it, but remember:  If you name
it wrong, you could wind up on your knees, snorkeling the philosophical
sausage of some guy with a silk suit on.>>> END QUOTED MATERIAL

Subj:  Re:Philosophical sausages
Date:  96-04-18 03:12:17 EDT
From:  ENOMNI          

Quite insightful,

Forgive a little Biblical analogy. What was the problem with eating the
apple? Knowledge--The ancient Tanakh or Biblical authors were not
indiscriminate in their use of language. The ancient Jewish mystical
tradition of the Kabbalism could very well differentiate between different
"modes" of comprehension. Wisdom (Chokmah), Understanding (Binah), and
Knowledge (Daath)---all represent different modes of comprehension.

My argument against SY is this. It is a system that offers
knowledge--precisely because it creates a barrier to the self-inquiry that
would lead to understanding and the experience that would lead to wisdom.
This barrier is in the fact that it is a system, bows to a finite deity, that
is "explanations" and ready made--quick, oh so quick metaphysical
explanations of experiences. The emotionalistic reaction to those supporters
of SY that occasionally erupts on this board is an indication of this mental
trap.

Cordially,
E
Subj:  Chidvilasananda speaks
Date:  96-04-18 10:33:28 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        


Dear AOL readers,

Are we up for the kind of open and frank discussion FreeMan789's essay has
initiated?  Here is a SYDA response to a request for open and frank
discussion.

(Taken from Rodarmor's "famous" CoEvolution Quarterly article, p.  110.)

<<<Why then, I asked, do the other ex-devotees I talked with support the
Dingas in their charges?  Chidvilasananda replied, "I'm very glad they gave
you a very nice story to cover themselves up and I want to tell you I don't
want to get into this story because I know their story, too, and I do not
want to say anything about it."  When I said, "You have a chance to tell us
whether or not you think these are accurate charges, falsehoods, or
delusions,"  Malti's answer was:  "I'm not going to probe into people's minds
and try to find out what the truth is.">>>

Believe it--this is what she is quoted as having said.  Enomni, up for
analyzing her "mode of discourse"?

Subj:  a little clarification
Date:  96-04-18 14:18:33 EDT
From:  Shridevi        

<<Given True Lotus's post--re the possibility of Gurumayi's possession of
siddhis rather than parakrupa or what have you, and given Shridevi's
description allusion to her vampiristic abuse experience, and given Narada's
post of old re "vamping," my mind is thinking of a number of analogous
situations.

Common to all is the ability of these individuals to have powers and possess
a supernormal control over themselves. Additionally, followers, seem most
vulnerable to relaxing their mental faculties to believe their claim to
deity.>>

From what you said here, E, it is not clear if you are making a connection
between between  "relaxing mental faculties" and rape.  In the event that
some readers may have made that connection themselves, I would like to look
at this again.

First of all, AOL readers, I wasn't referring to my own experience of rape
when I wrote my response to the scientology thing.  I was referring to rape
in general.  Women are fairly consistent in their description of how such
experiences effect them.  Even and including the woman in the article.  She
made the choice not to resist Hubbard, not because she thought he was a
diety, but because she thought he was a dangerous sociopath.

I was not raped by someone I idealized.  It was someone I loathed.  And that
is why, I would guess, he did what he did.  Out of anger.   "to teach me a
lesson" (his words)<<Given True Lotus's post--re the possibility of
Gurumayi's possession of siddhis rather than parakrupa or what have you, and
given Shridevi's description allusion to her vampiristic abuse experience,
and given Narada's post of old re "vamping," my mind is thinking of a number
of analogous situations.

Common to all is the ability of these individuals to have powers and possess
a supernormal control over themselves. Additionally, followers, seem most
vulnerable to relaxing their mental faculties to believe their claim to
deity.>>

From what you said here, E, it is not clear if you are making a connection
between between  "relaxing mental faculties" and rape.  In the event that
some readers may have made that connection themselves, I would like to look
at this again.

Second, I wasn't referring to my own experience of rape when I wrote my
response to the scientology thing.  I was referring to rape in general.
Women are fairly consistent in their description of how such experiences
effect them.  Even and including the woman in the article.  She made the
choice not to resist Hubbard, not because she thought he was a diety, but
because she thought he was a dangerous sociopath.

Just think it is important to be really clear about these things.
  
shree

Subj:  Magic transformation
Date:  96-04-19 07:53:12 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Here's some dialog from the alt.yoga newsgroup (on the internet, also see
alt.support.ex-cult)
: >For others who have had intense shaktipat experiences in her presence, her
: >ability to trigger that response does not then mean that she is not also
: >greedy and dishonest. 

: Then please explain how she does it.    I don't see people getting
: intense shaktipat experiences when they go to restaurants or
: ballparks.

"The ability to confer shaktipat is *not* an indicator of full 
realization.  Amrit Desai definitely conferred shaktipat, yet has 
acknowledged sexually abusing devotees and then lying about his 
behavior.  I know that not everyone believes that Baba Muktananda had sex 
with young girls... but there does seem to be considerable belief that he 
did.  Yet Baba had great shakti, which he shared with thousands of 
devotees.  Shakti and evil are not mutually exclusive.  All of this 
would be tidier and easier to understand if they were... but we live in 
an untidy and hard-to-understand universe." (end quoted material)

I guess I would say what is shakti, really, and what is shaktipat?  If the
only point of view that we value is the subjective ("i trust my own
experience; trust your own experience"), then we can accept the definitions
of shakti and shaktipat that syda feeds us, and cease and desist from using
our own mental faculties, our critical intellect and capacity for
discernment.  "It feels like what they say shaktipat and shakti is, it feels
sublime, therefore, that's all the proof I need"  Did you ever FEEL that you
were totally in love with someone or something, only to realize later that
they weren't at all what you thought they were  -- and now your feelings for
them are totally the opposite?  Subjectivity can be a dangerous trap, and it
can be exploited and manipulated by people, especially people who need to
control others in order to feel alive.  What would GM have if she didn't have
control over others?  Maybe just the memories of being tortured and abused by
her Guru, Muktananda.  

Maybe shakti and shaktipat are phenomenal that have very little to do with
good, truth, humanity, god.  Maybe those are the aspects that we bring to the
experience - maybe they don't come from the guru at all.  The guru may be a
catalyst that skillfully creates an environment where we let ourself have an
experience.  It's our love we feel, not hers.  My experience of GM is that
she is not capable of really loving anyone, because she is so severly damaged
as a human being.  

Shakti and shaktipat - I had the experience.  I did all the right things for
13 years, made all the right moves in syda.  What I learned is that - the
experience ain't what they say it is, doesn't do what they say it does.
There's no magic - healing and transformation are hard work, and GM doesn't
know a thing about it.

Subj:  Baran and Grimes
Date:  96-04-20 10:44:37 EDT
From:  BartlettQ       

>But Josh Baran of Berkeley, a cult counselor who has worked with about 30
ex-followers of Muktananda, believes that many devotees are victims of mind
control and that the late Muktananda was a hypocrite who ruthlessly
controlled and exploited his closest followers.  "At first they were hesitant
to talk about it," Baran said during a recent meeting with five former
Muktananda followers and a reporter in Baran's home near the Oakland Siddha
ashram.  "Then they began to open up and . . . the anger started coming out .
. . the repressed feelings.  And they began to say what they actually saw."<

>Said Richard Grimes, an executive assistant to Muktananda during the 1970s:
"I hate to use the word brainwashing, but, for lack of a better word, the
realization at least for me personally that . . . decisions relative to what
to do with my life were completely controlled and manipulated . . . was the
worst aspect of it.  It has even now taken so many years for the effects of
that to wear off . . . . In my mind that's the greatest damage that's done."<

Subj:  Re:Magic transformation
Date:  96-04-21 18:56:08 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      

 << Shakti and evil are not mutually exclusive.  All of this 
      would be tidier and easier to understand if they were... but we live in

      an untidy and hard-to-understand universe." (end quoted material) >>

In the late '80s I knew an acupuncturist who had lived in the ashrams of
Rudrananda and Chetanananda.  He had also met Muktananda, Gurumayi, and
Nityananda II, and was pals with Shankarananda during his time with
Nityananda.  He used to say that shakti was like money.  Having lots of
shakti didn't mean you would do something morally responsible with it.
People with lots of money can do all kinds of things with it -- moral,
immoral, or neutral.  Having lots of money is just an opportunity to do what
you want, create whatever you can, buy whatever you want.  He used to say
that these gurus were shakti rich, meaning they had a kind of power, not that
they were benign people.  

When he told me this I didn't agree with him.  I still thought Gurumayi was a
highly moral person, and that shakti meant purity of purpose.  But over the
years I have come to think that my acupuncturist friend was right.  I have
also realized that there are many people who have charisma, or personal
power, or shakti who are not involved in spiritual activities at all.  It is
a kind of personal development or gift which can be used in many ways.  Maybe
those who are truly spiritually evolved are those who have this power in
abundance and are also psychologically mature and healthy, and are therefore
capable of using this power in a moral way.  People like that are probably
pretty rare and they probably don't set up abusive spiritual business
empires.  Too bad we found gurus who took the shortcut.  

Subj:  Re:Shri Devi
Date:  96-04-23 02:13:38 EDT
From:  Shridevi        

HEY

this is the infamous shreeeedevi here.  talking to you live from my living
room.  here's the facts:  #1)  it was the flamers that got to me and, after
signing off, i realized that #2) i really can take it all less seriously and
being heavily involved and giving a (tos) served its purpose and now #3) i
can sneak on from time to time without being so affected by moronic
activities.

your pal in cyberspace,

the shree


Subj:  Re:JAQUERIE
Date:  96-04-23 07:41:02 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      

NO!!!!!!!!!
Siddha yoga is YOU NEEK
It is NOT like anything else
You can't understand it with your intellect
Your CONcepts keep you from seeing the TROOTH
THE mind IS A LITTLE THING
it is your ENEMY in the true yoga
trust your EXPERIENCE (and whatever the authorities say)
false prophet???!!!!  No, TRUE GURU!
get WITH IT
surrender your EGO (a bad thing)
abandon your intellect (it leads you astray)
the GURU is everything
BELIEVE and be HAPPY.

(joke)

Hi Jaquerie.  I've been lurking for a while too.

::fibs

Subj:  The abyss and bad faith
Date:  96-04-23 14:54:23 EDT
From:  Navinsf         

Subj:  Re:Essay about SYDA
Date:  96-04-18 03:04:51 EDT
From:  ENOMNI          


Howie and the rest of the universe,

So what is it then in the human condition that seeks this explanation of
things? What is it in the human condition that clings to a SYSTEM like a
security blanket? 

My little guess is that the abyss of nihilism yawned before many of those in
groups like SY. Rather than embark upon the initiative of true self-inquiry,
a set of ready made, quick answers in the form of a system, are offered to
them, like a bowl of fruit.  Consequently, SY offers an illusory boat to
cross the abyss yet. Better yet, a boat with holes.......

It is not that the abyss is the final end to humanity, but rather, our goal
is not to cross it and then deny it's existence but to learn how to swim in
it. Systems are antithetical to such a necessary process--and yet so alluring
in their anaesthesizing effect on numbing us to the emptiness of the abyss.

Just some reflections,
E


Couldn't have said it better myself. The only thing I would add is that this
way of escaping the abyss through an ultimately illusory system is precisely
what Sartre called 'bad faith'.

I have had only cursory experiences with SY, however I am a survivor of a
very similar situation over at SY's "spiritual cousins" at Kripalu.

Peace,

Simon

Subj:  CQ
Date:  96-04-24 06:21:40 EDT
From:  BartlettQ       

>There was always a lot of secrecy around ashram affairs, Lotte Grimes
remarked. During Muktananda's lifetime, that secrecy applied to money matters
with a vengeance.

The number of people who came to intensives, for example, was a secret even
from the devotees. Simple multiplication would tell anyone how much money was
coming in.  And when Richard Grimes set up a restaurant at the Oakland
ashram, he said Muktananda "had a fit" when he found out that Grimes had been
keeping his own records of the take.<

Subj:  Re:CQ
Date:  96-04-24 06:22:47 EDT
From:  BartlettQ       

>Muktananda himself was said to have been very attached to money. "For years,
he catered only to those who were wealthy," said Richard Grimes. "He spent
all the time outside of his public performances seeing privately anyone who
had a lot of money."

A parade of Mercedes-Benzes used to drive up to the Ganeshpuri ashram with
rich visitors, said Grimes. In Oakland, Lotte Grimes saw Malti order a list
drawn up of everybody in the ashram who had money, to arrange private
interviews with Muktananda, by his orders.

Devotees, on the other hand, had to get by on small stipends, if they got
anything. Chandra Dinga, despite her status as head of food services, never
got more than $100 a month. Devotees with less prestige were completely
dependent on the guru's generosity. Sally once cried for two days when she
broke her glasses, knowing she would have to beg Muktananda for another pair.

How much money did Muktananda amass from his efforts? Even the officers of
the foundation that ostensibly ran Muktananda's affairs never knew for sure.

Michael Dinga was a foundation trustee, and used to cosign for deposits to
the ashram's Swiss bank accounts, but the amounts on the papers were always
left blank.<

Subj:  THE GURU'S FROLICS
Date:  96-04-24 06:47:22 EDT
From:  BartlettQ       

>They would talk about how there were so few good looking girls in Siddha
Yoga: that there were mostly middle-aged women. He would encourage Ganesh to
tease me that I didn't need to wear a bra, that all I needed was bandaids for
my mosquito bites. They would also constantly be making fun of other people's
relationships, saying that they were all based on 'the stick and the hole.'

In July 1985 in South Fallsburg, the Siddha Yoga foundation in New York, he
called Hemananda to his room late at night and was dressed in his red shorts,
his favourite night wear, and T-shirt. "He squeezed me very close to him and
then started French kissing for a long time. At one point he whispered, 'Is
this good?' I didn't answer because I thought it was understood that if it
wasn't I would have left. He asked me again, and because I was charmed at
being the fortunate recipient of the guru's love, I said 'Yes'."(THE GURU'S
FROLICS, THE SUNDAY OBSERVER, 4/13/86) <

Subj:  Re:THE GURU'S FROLICS
Date:  96-04-24 06:48:38 EDT
From:  BartlettQ       

>In the final analysis what appears most absurd is not the irresponsible
cavorting of a modern day Krishna but the sheer ignorance or pretense of
ignorance by the other inmates of the raasleela that was going on in the
ashram. In this light, it is a story not of the god that failed, but of the
devotees who failed. Here was a young man spending vast sums on Mercedes and
decorations, but he was indulged. That his taste should go beyond toys and
apartments to videos and sexual activity is not, for any but the willfully
myopic, inherently amazing. Neither Nityanand's behaviour nor the ashram's
earlier attempts to look the other way, inspire full confidence in a
religious organisation with thousands of followers and millions of dollars in
its coffers. When is a guru not a guru? And more importantly, when is he one?
The need of people to believe in something is being increasingly made absurd
by gurus who fail to live up to expectations. But on the evidence of other
"fallen" gurus, the Siddha Yoga Foundation may well be able to weather this
storm.<

Subj:  Two-Day Workshop with Ram
Date:  96-04-25 08:24:51 EDT
From:  BartlettQ       

>As a successful international Siddha Yoga teacher, lecturer, and author, Ram
is uniquely qualified to show us how to unlock that inner wisdom of which the
Siddhas speak . . . He is a warm, witty and insightful speaker and writer,
with a rare ability to make the great pearls of spiritual wisdom crystal
clear and comprehensible.  Spend two days in this special workshop and
discover why thousands of people eagerly await the arrival of the Siddha Yoga
Correspondence lesson every month. (Siddha Yoga advertisement)<

> . . . if we don't get the right information, our mind will be deceived or
confused by the wrong information. But the truth is, we have learned so much
and our understanding of so many things has been deepened. We have been shown
the right way to do it and the wrong way to do it.  Now we can look at
Gurumayi and appreciate for the first time how incredibly rare it is to find
a true Guru, and how fortunate we are to have one. . . The only one who
really keeps us involved in the unpleasant business of Venkateshwar is
Venkateshwar himself. . . It is important to look and see what our actual
experience of all this is. (Ram Butler)<

Subj:  Re:Two-Day Workshop with Ram
Date:  96-04-25 08:46:29 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Great example of Ramspeak.  What in the name of Betsy is he talking about?
The Corresondence Course would be more aptly named the "Screwloose Gazette,
brought to you by Butt Rambler and other members of the High Order of the
Missing Marbles"

Post-mind control readings of the Course are among the most dumbfounding and
hilarious and pathetic experiences in recovery from the cult of SYDA.  You
get to see, if you ever bought into it in the first place (I did, for a
while), what utter numbed-out, devious and deceptive, dishonest and
exploitative garbage that rag really is.

Yes, I know, harsh words - but the soft, mind-numbing words of the Course are
what's really destructive.  

Subj:  GM's cheez-wit taste 1/2
Date:  96-04-25 09:32:34 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 1 OF 2

There's no accounting for taste.  What does Sadguru Gurumayi Chidvilasananda,
the Perfected Siddha Master, go for?  A Jackson 5 wannabe, who puppets to"Sex
Machine"--a "YMCA Village People" impersonator named Christopher.
"Thirtysomething Guru Mayi saw Christopher on cable television" AND THE REST
IS SYDA HISTORY!   

SEE PART 2


Subj:  GM's cheez-wit taste 2/2
Date:  96-04-25 09:34:04 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 2

<<<Chicago Sun-Times, July 14, 1995, FRIDAY, Late Sports Final Edition.
HEADLINE: Puppeteer Isn't Just Another 1-Man Band. BYLINE: Dave Hoekstra

Christopher dances with two life-size puppets on each side of his body,
attached by a harness and poles. Even the puppet mouths move collectively and
independently as Christopher pulls on thinly disguised fishing wire. The
dancing machine began as replicates of the Jackson 5, but when Christopher
makes his debut at Elfstrom Stadium in Geneva on Sunday, he'll be appearing
with 60 pounds of Village People puppets.

He's had his fill of the Jackson 5 . . . "I rewrote the (Jackson 5 hit) song
'ABC' as 'GMC.' It sounded fun. . . .I had the idea of doing 'YMCA,' before
it became such a nostalgic song. It turned out people loved it." When
Christopher performs before and during the Cougars-Wizards game Sunday he'll
do "YMCA" combined with a James Brown medley of "Sex Machine," "I Feel Good"
and "Get Up Off Of That Thing."  The five-on-one dance act was born as a
Halloween costume.

"I wanted to be Michael Jackson, and he was hot in  1985,  but I thought that
was too easy," Christopher said. "Why not be the whole Jackson 5? But I
couldn't think of how to be five people at once. Carry around posters?
Pictures? Finally I thought of puppets."

Christopher (his legal name) grew up near the Dan Ryan Expy. and 59th Street.
HE HAS TAKEN HIS ACT TO THE JERRY LEWIS TELETHON . . . BUT HIS FAVORITE
GIG
WAS FOR A GURU IN INDIA. Thirtysomething Guru Mayi saw Christopher on cable
television and requested he perform at an event in India for the SYDA
Foundation (the spiritual Indian group that promotes  Siddha yoga  meditation
internationally).  He had to fly into New Delhi and drive into the small
village of Ghazipur for a show in a palace. 

. . . Everyone has a good chuckle, but Christopher enjoys the last laugh. He
has the world on a string.>>>

Subj:  puppets
Date:  96-04-25 12:08:50 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Oh, Howie, this one's a no brainer.  OF COURSE Gurumayi will spare no expense
to fly an American puppet act to New Delhi for her entertainment and
amusement pleasure.  Gurumayi relates to other people in precisely the same
way as her friend Chris the Puppet Man relates to his puppets:  by
manipulating them, controlling them, and possessing them  (although GM's
repertoire also includes intimidating, ripping off, deceiving, and
exploiting).  She must have felt as though she were looking straight into a
mirror, watching that show.  Except that Christopher and his Puppets are
harmless; Gurumayi has unfortunately caused great harm to the many she
manipulates.

Subj:  Fibonacci's Dream (1)
Date:  96-04-25 12:27:21 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      

IN THE SOUTH FALLSBURG AMRIT

     ( The dream begins.... )
     
Judi:   Hi, Howie.  You look so good in that suit.  Is it silk?

Howie:   Yeah, it's an Armani.  George gave it to me in '92.  I sure do miss
him.  I hope he comes back some time.

Judi:   Oh, don't you worry, he'll be back.  Gurumayi always takes care of
everything.  

Howie:   Hey Soloflyr, wanna join us for dinner?

Soloflyr:   Sure, my dosa should be up in a minute.  I'm sitting over there
with MDSNMAN and Dissent.  Come on and sit with us.

Howie:   Okay.  ...  Hi guys,  what's goin' on?

MDSNMAN:   Nice to see you, Howie.  Hey Jude, love your sari.  Is it from
Gurumayi?

Judi:   Umm hmm.  I feel so ecstatic when I wear it.  How did you like the
intensive last weekend?

MDSNMAN:   I loved it.  It was so powerful.  I entered into a space of
celestial light for almost a full day.  It was beyond words.  In the morning
meditation on Sunday I had an experience of nectar descending into me and
filling my whole being.  I wasn't MDSNMAN, I was bliss.

Judi:   Wow, I feel intoxicated just hearing about it.  I'm so glad we came
to sit here.  How about you Solo?

Soloflyr:   I had a lot of stuff come up during most of the intensive.  My
knees were killing me and I just couldn't sit still.  My mind wouldn't stop
either.  Then when Swami Durgananda gave her talk my mind became absolutely
still and all my body pain vanished.  In the last meditation I saw the blue
pearl for a long time.  I was completely at peace.

Judi:   How divine!

Soloflyr:   By the way Dissent, I loved your sharing in the intensive.  It
was so sweet.

Dissent:   Thanks, Solo.

Howie:   Me too, Dissent.  It touched me in a really deep place.  I had a lot
of kriyas in the intensive and I was feeling really inadequate.  I was so
contracted that I thought Gurumayi's shakti didn't even enter me.  Then when
you gave your sharing my heart blasted open and I was filled with her love.


Dissent:   Oh, that's wonderful Howie.  Sharing true experiences with others
on the path is a real privilege.  Hey Howie, did I hear you got a spiritual
name?

Howie:   Yeah, I did.  I'd been thinking about asking Gurumayi for a name for
a few weeks. Then after the intensive she pulled me out of the darshan line
and asked me if I had something on my mind.  I was immersed in love and my
mind was completely still. So I said, "No, Gurumayi."  She smiled at me and
said, "No?"  Then all of a sudden I remembered.  "Oh, that's right," I said.
"I've been wanting to ask you for a spiritual name, but I didn't know if it
was the right time."  She gave me this look and said, "It's the right time."
Then she closed her eyes for a few seconds.  When she opened them she looked
right at me and said, "Gurubhakta.  Your name is Gurubhakta."  It was such a
powerful moment.  I felt instantly transformed.   

Judi:   Gurubhakta.  What a wonderful name.  It fits you perfectly.

MDSNMAN:   Yeah, it's you!  Oh look, there's Fibonacci.  Hey Fibs, come on
over and join us.
  
             ( cont'd )
Subj:  Fibonacci's Dream (2)
Date:  96-04-25 12:30:38 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      

            ( Fibs' dream continues..... )

Fibonacci:   Gladly.  I heard ya' all talking while I was in the living foods
line.  It sounds like you're having a little satsang. 

Dissent:  Yeah, I suppose we are.  We're all in the company of the truth here
in the guru's house.

Howie:   What's the matter Fibs, aren't you hungry?  What *is * that on your
tray?

Fibonacci:   Wheat grass tea and blue green algae soup.  It's really good.
I'm doing a month long purification thing.  It's only been two weeks so far
and I already feel cleansed of lifetimes of karma.  

Howie:   Wow, that's great.  I'm thinking of starting on living foods after I
go on the tour.

Fibonacci:   Yeah, it's been really good for my sadhana.

Judi:   Did you take the intensive, Fibs?

Fibonacci:   No, I skipped it to do seva in the kitchen.  With this
purification program, all I want to do is serve Gurumayi, so I signed up for
all day seva during the intensive.  I was washing dishes and working really
hard, but I felt totally tuned in to what was happening in the intensive.  As
soon as the meditation sessions started, I went into the witness state.  My
seva weekend was like two days of darshan.

Howie:   Yeah, the shakti is so strong during an intensive.

Larryom:   Hi everyone.  Can I join you?

Judi:   Sure, have a seat Larryom.

Dissent:   Hey, stranger.  I never see you anymore.  Have you been away from
the ashram?

Larryom:   No, I've been here.  I'm really busy, though.  Ever since I
started doing seva in the Finance Office, I've been pretty much out of sight.

Dissent:   Finance seva?  Wow, I thought you were still in the bakery.

Larryom:   No, I've been in finance for about a month.  It's really great.
I've learned so much about myself, and about the SYDA Foundation.

Howie:   I'll bet you have!  A little fancy footwork with the numbers, Larry?

Larryom:   Yeah, you could say that.  It's been such a teaching.  Everything
is maya.  All this money comes in and we put it in these categories, you
know, like it's all real.  But it's all an illusion.  I've gained so much
spiritual understanding from this seva.  In one month of finance seva I've
learned more about Kashmir Shaivism than I did from six years of the
Correspondence Course.

Judi:   That sounds wonderful, Larryom.

Larryom:   Yeah, it's been real prasad.  Hey, did you hear about NaradaP
becoming a trustee?  

MDSNMAN:   Yeah, isn't that good news?  He's been in Siddha Yoga for less
than a year and he's already a trustee.  Everyone's really excited about it.

Howie:   I heard Gurumayi said he had done so much sadhana in his past
lifetimes that he could go right to the top.  All he had to do was take the
teachers' training course, and then she made him a trustee.  

Soloflyr:   I don't even think he needed teachers' training.  His talks were
great right from the start.

Dissent:   Yeah, his talks are brilliant.  They've cleared up a lot of things
for me in my sadhana.  He's a real inspiration.

Larryom:   No doubt about it. 

            ( cont'd )
Subj:  Fibonacci's Dream (3)
Date:  96-04-25 12:32:33 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      


            ( Fibs' dream continues.... )

Shridevi:   Hi guys.

Judi:   Shridevi!  You look awful.  What's the matter?

Shridevi:   I just woke up from a horrible dream.  Something big got shaken
loose right at the end of the intensive but the shakti didn't finish clearing
it out.  I've been crying all week.  Then I fell asleep this afternoon after
seva and I had this really creepy dream.  We were all in different places and
completely separate from each other.  We wanted to be together but we
couldn't even see each other.  We were all alone. The worst thing was we were
stuck in our minds and we had to figure everything out for ourselves.  We
didn't have the guru to make our decisions for us and we had to relate to the
cosmic being all on our own.  I was so scared.   

Judi:   Oh, how terrifying!  You poor thing.

Shridevi:   Then it got really weird.  We had to communicate with each other
by typing messages into our computers.  There was this elaborate system of
windows that we had to navigate through until we got to this window where we
could send messages to each other.  That was the only way we could connect to
each other.  
 
Judi:   How bizarre! 

Howie:   Yeah, it sounds awful.  I can't imagine communicating like that. 

Shridevi:   I think I was being purified of my samskaras of separateness from
before I met the guru.  But it was so scary.

Judi:   Don't feel bad, Shridevi.  We're all here with you.  Come on over
here Shri, let me give you a hug. ....  Oh you're so warm.  You've got a
fever.  No wonder you had a nightmare.  MDSNMAN, do you have some herbs for
Shridevi's fever?

MDSNMAN:   They're all in my room at Sadhana Kutir, but I do have some Rescue
Remedy with me.  Here Shri, take a few drops of this and you'll feel better
in a minute.

Shridevi:   Oh, thanks MDSNMAN.  I feel better already,  just being with you
guys.

Judi:   Well, we're glad you're here with us instead of in some stupid
computer window.

Shridevi:   Yeah, me too.

Fibonacci:   Well, it's been great having satsang with ya' all.  I'd love to
stay, but my support seva starts in fifteen minutes.  

Howie:   Are you still doing Amrit clean up, Fibs?

Fibonacci:   No, it's a secret seva.  Well, I guess I can tell you.  Don't
say anything about it to anyone though.

Judi:   Of course not Fibs.  What are you doing?

Fibonacci:   I'm monitoring the activities of a bunch of deluded anti Siddha
Yoga people on the online computer networks.

Judi:   Oh, such bad company!  How can you stand it?

Fibonacci:   It did get me down a little bit at first, but now I like it.  I
just close my eyes and repeat the mantra every time I read something
undharmic.  If you trust your experience, everything's fine.

Judi:   Yeah, I guess you're right.  Everything *is* perfect, isn't it. 

Fibonacci:   It sure is.  Okay, see ya' all later.  Hope you're feeling
better Shri.

Shridevi:   Thanks.  Bye Fibs.

Fibonacci:   Bye.


Subj:  Where are they now?
Date:  96-04-25 13:22:28 EDT
From:  BVena           

Where are they now? Just wondering if Nityananda Jr. is a father. What ever
happened to the mother? Shamas' son Swami Studmyster was deswami-ised after
the TOS hit the fan and his buddy Nit Jr. was deposed. Don't know for sure
but I can't imagine he would be allowed to stay in any guise after that. Was
Shama excommunicated for the sin of being his mother? Also, have all of the
swamis Nityananda had sex with been gotten rid of at this point? After the
humiliation of being forced to publicly recount the "sessions" I hope they
are out for blood. 
Just wondering
Raj    


Subj:  Re:Where are they now?
Date:  96-04-25 14:47:10 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

No, the swamis he had sex with aren't swamis anymore, nor are the ones
Shankarananda had sex with.  IN the first category, Hemananda and
Purnanananda (now Joyce of the music dep't) are staying close to the guru.
They are useful as willing witnesses to how bad Nit. Jr. is.  In the second
category, Yogananda (now Brenda) and Lalitananda (now Lalita Franklin) are
also staying close to the guru.  

No, none of the Nit JR. seductees left.  IN fact, Hemananda, even after being
slapped around by George Afif and Swami Shantananda and called many ugly
names for allowing herself to be had by Nit JR., is the most loyal of all.
It's called MASOCHISM.

Subj:  Mean
Date:  96-04-25 13:12:24 EDT
From:  BVena           

I was in a bit of a quandary as to which file to post this in. I would
particularly like responses from persons having experience of other cults in
addition to SY. 
 I've been wondering if other supposed gurus have been known for being as
personally mean spirited as our own She Who Must Be Served, She Who Must Be
Obeyed Uber Swami Gurumayi. I am reminded of the years of being in the
darshan line with this mantra running through my head: TOS TOS TOS TOS. Sense
I don't know if I can use this word outside of a folder on breeding female
dogs I will use TOS. Anyway....I just could not get it out of my head.
Believing that she was omniscient didn't help any either. Some  people to
whom I've mentioned this have had the same experience and that many others
still in SY have too but would never admit it. Strange what one will put up
with.
 This sounds like a minor point in contrast to what her minions have done and
even been convicted of doing (has convicted child molester George Afif left
the country? Is he a citizen of the US?). I would like to know if other
supposed gurus are as dismissiv, arrogant, vain, and you fill in the rest. If
so how do they keep a following of sycophant followers?   
Just wondering. What has been your experience?
Raj

Subj:  Re:Mean
Date:  96-04-25 14:50:04 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

They're all the same, pretty much.  Some are even worse.  It's a typical kind
of personality, described so perfectly by Erich Fromm in "Escape From
Freedom" which is quoted in the SYDA essay in the file library.  This is the
authoritarian, sadomasochistic, paranoid personality - you could also throw
in narcissistic and megalomaniac there.  Put them all together, they spell
GURU, a word that don't mean TOS to me.

Subj:  Here's how they think
Date:  96-04-25 19:40:37 EDT
From:  MDSNMAN         

Shortly after leaving SY and the SF Ashram for good a few years ago, I
visited with an old friend (then still a devotee) in NYC.  We were discussing
George's penchant for sleeping with Gurumayi's darshan girls:

Me:  "So, what do you think of all that.  Why do you imagine Gurumayi allows
it to go on?"

Devotee:  "I think it is something we just can't understand with our minds.
I mean,  I think that George is really a high being.  He just happens to be a
pedophile."

Subj:  Why they are where they are 
Date:  96-04-25 23:18:29 EDT
From:  N99D            

Hemananda et al are still hanging with "Gurumayi" because she has made her
brother the evil one who seduced them, while she remains the pure, heroic
savior who will reeem them.

The motivating factor for these poor women is their shame about their own
sexual desires (god forbid).

I'm sure similar scenarios get played out in larger organized religion
settings all the time.

Subj:  "Necessary evil" apologism 1/2
Date:  96-04-26 04:21:01 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 1 OF 2

Dear AOL readers,

Many cult apologists are habituated to the "high" conferred by SYDA
practices.  These folk use thought-cork favorites like:  "Trust your
experiences," "I follow the inner, not the outer, guru," and "though I have
problems with the organization, I continue to evolve from its energy."  

And many apologists who claim to have cut back on their participation in SYDA
programs are still cultish, and worship (if not the cult leader) THE CULT
HIGH--as if it were itself spirituality.  Apologists often believe that the
SYDA Foundation is unique in its ability to confer this high, and thus should
be preserved despite its core problems--this is the "necessary evil"
argument.  The following addresses this disordered, apologist line of
thought. 

SEE PART 2

Subj:  "Nec. evil" apologism 2/2
Date:  96-04-26 04:22:29 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 2

BEGIN QUOTED MATERIAL<<<There are many group processes that can make people
feel wonderful, even euphoric.  And it is to be noted that these processes or
euphoric feelings are not unique to cults or fringe churches.   What becomes
troublesome for the recovering ex-member is coming to understand that such
processes are not unique to their group. . . . 

The longing to duplicate such experiences can be one of the most difficult
problems for ex-cultists to overcome.  They have learned to love a feeling,
and they begin a search to find that feeling again outside the cult.  It then
resembles an addiction.  Just like the drug addict they maintain that there
is no greater feeling in the world.  But look at the result of drug
addiction--a most pitiable condition that wrecks lives, health, careers and
often kills.  A similar process that leads to destruction can be found by the
cultist who will sacrifice everything simply because he can't seem to find
that "feeling" anywhere else.

While the group member was on a "high," he may have unknowingly repressed or
dissociated emotional pain, doubts . . . . Such highs (which are certainly
not unique to religion) CAN BE PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND SPIRITUALLY UNHEALTHY
. .
.>>>END QUOTED MATERIALv

Subj:  Re:Psychopathic Gurus
Date:  96-04-26 03:05:54 EDT
From:  ENOMNI          

I still feel there is a reliance on "distance" in SY. Many people really
don't have much contact with her. They do recieve plenty of interpretations
on the nature of the brief contacts they do have. Cumulative interpretations
form the SY system. 

When you can't grab hold of the trunk of the tree to see what kind of tree it
is, however, the next best rule is to know the tree "by it's fruits." True
Lotus talks of vibes from followers. You need only ask, are these the kind of
people I want to become like? Bad fruit? 

Of course, there are the more direct experiences of abuse many have had. What
is more revealing than the teacher not quite conforming him/herself to the
interpretations that the teacher allows to surround him/herself? 

I mean, "is that the shakti, or are you just happy to see me?"

Cordially,
E 

Subj:  Staying in SYDA
Date:  96-04-26 08:05:52 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

A reader asks:
"Anyone esle have any theories about why the seductees would have "stayed
close to the guru"?? 

It does seem rather odd, I don't see masochism as the real inducement.  What
else could it be?"

I have lots of theories on this, but I thought the "SYDA - Abuse in Cults"
Essay in the File Library made a pretty good stab at answering this type of
question.  We're all "seductees", if we've given our time, money, and loyalty
to SYDA.  We've been seduced by a dishonest Guru (with her organization and
its history) whose basic message is "hand over everything to me and I'll
guide you and lead you to the end of struggle, pain, fear, anger, hurt."
She's selling enlightenment and transcendence, as if it were something that
any human being could or should attain.  I don't think so.

Ever since the wolf put on sheep's clothing, there have been sadistic,
paranoid people who (for whatever reasons, usually their own abuse) relate to
others in the following ways: seduction (including posing as magnanimous and
beneficent), manipulation, control, deception, intimidation, threat, force.
This is how a person who feels powerless and threatened by all that he cannot
control will relate to others.  It is the basic personality of the paranoid,
and also of the fascist dictator.  After all, Hitler defended his activities
and justified them as being for the Highest Good, as being the Will of
Nature, Fate, and God.  Read Mein Kampf, sometime, it sounds just like the
Correspondence Course.

On the other hand, there are people who feel powerless and long to submit to
and merge with something much greater than themselves.  They are often ripe
for exploitation by the types mentioned above.  These seeking and longing
folks may start out with noble aspirations, but the more they are controlled
and the more they give away, the more those aspirations become only about
preserving the tie to the leader, the great one they have merged with.
Between the sadist's need for control and exploitation (and it is a desperate
need) - and the seeker's longing for surrender and merger -- you got a pretty
combustible mix.

Masochism is used in different ways to mean different things.  We could say
that a masochistic solution to feelings of powerlessness and fear of the
unknown would be to "give everything over to the guru", to submit, surrender
and obey.  This is masochistic in that it means a discarding, killing off of,
devaluing of, the self, in favor of "The Self" - which, as we all know, in
SYDA is stated to be one with the Guru.  "I'm not really just little old,
powerless, meaningless me anymore:  I got Shaktipat, and now I'm SOMEBODY,
I'm a CONTENDER, I've got Baba and Gurumayi INSIDE ME and I don't have to be
alone anymore."

"Know that the Self, the mantra and the Guru are One"  And who is the Guru?
None other than Gurumayi Chidvilasananda, the Bombay restaurant owner's
daughter who wanted to grow up to be a pop singer.  By straining to identify
as completely as possible with any 3 of the SYDA gurus on the menu, we can be
guaranteed that we won't have to feel small and meaningless (and maybe
unlovable) anymore, because (here's the secret) - we're walking around doing
the usual, BUT we're secretly doing our japa, we're secretly pretending we're
in a cave with Bhagawan, and we're not really just small, insignificant
people, we're THE SELF.  

It's a big struggle, really terrifying and alone and painful, when you stop
trying to be a SYDA, and start trying to figure out who you are, what are
your values, what do you really think, feel and will.  It's easier to just
let the SYDAs do all that for you. 

So that's why people stay, I think.  Until they see how much more deadly it
is to let the SYDAs do their life for them, they remain.

Subj:     BVena's recent group mailing
Date:     96-04-26 16:03:42 EDT
From:     Howie Sm
To:  BVena
CC:  ENOMNI, Soloflyr11, Ruthsita, Yogi J, Dissent222

Dear BVena,

You say <<<I could use some info, preferably specific, to use in having SY
products removed from a store in my neighborhood.>>>

I would give the store owner the open letter.  It will probably interest
him/her on several levels at once.   And Baba was anti-gay, as can be seen
from his writings here and there. 

Baba writes in Satsang With Baba II (p. 197) "A Guru would never be flirting
with mistresses or hobnobbing with homosexuals.  In our country a homosexual
would never be regarded as a Guru.   Homosexuals are considered to be
eunuchs--disgusting, impure, and inauspicious." 

(Now begins a Howie rant--)

So much for the legend of Baba's equal vision.  People worship this ignoramus
as a perfect being.  But Baba is no hypocrite here: I believe that he didn't
"flirt with mistresses."  From what I hear, he skipped over the flirting part
and just moved directly to raping little girls on a sex table.

The Hare Krishnas made a fortune from incense sales; Scientology's
post-Hubbard expansion was (and is) financed in part by the distribution of
fiction books using the L. Ron Hubbard name (a copyrighted term designated a
group of authors under a corporate umbrella).  And SYDA is no doubt doing a
fabulous merchandising business with its incense--which is sold
everywhere--and to a lesser degree, its books.

As far as hurting SYDA's pocketbook, I think the biggest financial liability
SYDA has is Gurumayi's feeble and unstable brain.  If her nuttiness becomes
public knowledge, the flow of money will diminish. Plus her sloppy and
high-handed stupidity no doubt has caused her to do things that expose the
SYDA Foundation to legal actions that may be expensive to "make go away." 

Still, I have no illusions--Scientology managed to not only survive but
flourish even after its stupid views became known to the public (such as that
part of us evolved from clams, which is why Scientologists believe you can
make people go crazy if you show them "talking clam" opening and closing hand
gestures;  Scientologists believe our spirit part is taken from souls of
space-alien convicts that were deposited frozen in Earth volcanoes, only to
later take over earth bodies and become us humans, etc. etc.).  

I find the Scientologists' claims less stupid than the SYDA claim that
listening to Gurumayi sing is a doorway to divinity!  I'd sooner swear that
I'm an ex-con from outer space, than listen to Gurumayi sing.  I just saw a
video of GM, and when she hit that final "Sadgurunath Maharaj ki Jay," it was
so cacaphonous that I reflexively clapped my hands over my ears and kicked
both legs out in front of me while exhaling fitfully.  I still have to admit:
that horrible noise was a fitting conclusion to a truly idiotic, frightfully
insane lecture.   

 But Scientology did have to retool considerably after being made a public
laughingstock.   So SYDA may survive, in some disfigured form, even after the
world realizes GM is a nut-case.  

I am sorry and upset about the fact that gays have had to endure ignorant and
hurtful comments and actions made by, or instigated by, Baba and Gurumayi.
Maybe something can be done about it.  I am happy that there are empathetic
people to discuss these matter with.  Best wishes to all of you.


Subj:  Watching a video
Date:  96-04-27 05:24:30 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Last night, for the first time in a long time, I watched a GM video.  It was
the message of 1995, Blaze the Trail of Equipoise.  Here's what I thought and
how I felt.

First, I felt quite sad and angry that I had spent 13 years of my life trying
to please this very crazy, phony, empty, paranoid nut job.  

And I thought:  Oh, yeah, I remember how SYDA propaganda works.  An article
in the New Yorker comes out, some devotees leave because of it, and a few
months later, GM gives a special, straight to the camera message to everyone,
designed to let us all know that if we have any doubts or questions or
feelings, it's because THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH US, and we will go down
the drain without her.

So, here's the formula.  First:
Start with some scriptual story that is both hypnotic but also scary: if you
don't appreciate the guru and SYDA, you're going down the drain.  Make
rolling goo goo seductive eyes at the camera, show your dimples, and expect
your audience to melt into a puddle and go into a trance:  most of them will.

Then, start berating the devotees, remind them of how confused, helpless, and
clueless they are about how to live in the world.  Show them how they do
everything wrong, think all bad things, etc.  Make them believe that they are
bad and helpless.

Then, give them the solution:  be MORE devoted, MORE vigilant, MORE perfect.
Demand (with a smile) that they do their sadhana much harder, and demand that
they do the impossible.  Include strong but not TOO obvious messages that say
"pay no attention to anything bad you hear about SYDA and completely shun
those who try to tell you anything about it.  Just walk around blazing a
trail of equipoise all the time."  Make sure that what is expected of them is
impossible and hopeless to ever attain, so that they realize that their only
hope for spiritual survival is to cling to your feet and give you as much of
their money as they possibly can.  They will know that they are miserable,
hopelessly inept sadhakas, but that if they pay you and love you with utter
devotion, they'll be pardoned.  

Liberally sprinkle in threats and predictions of a hideous fate and dreadful
doom for those who stray from the path.  

Finally, say something soothing so that now that they're filled with guilt
and shame and remorse, helplessness and supplication, they can also feel
grateful for how merciful their loving, kind, sweet, forgiving guru is.

End with something gooey and sweet and warm and fuzzy.
Go back to "the house" and count how many pairs of hats, shoes, diamond
brooches, and silk gowns you have.  And call your broker.

Finally, I felt that GM has just about the ugliest haircut I have ever seen,
and that she is a really bad actor, stiff, awkward, embarrassing - like
watching some bad Brady Bunch rerun.

Thank God I didn't have to listen to her sing.

Subj:  The meaning of love
Date:  96-04-27 07:29:21 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Here's something I'd like to share with you all that has a lot of meaning for
me. From Erich Fromm, in "Escape From Freedom", describing the authoritarian
personality:

"For the sado-masochistic character, LOVE means symbiotic dependence, NOT
mutual affirmation and union on the basis of equality; 
SACRIFICE means the utmost subordination of the individual self to something
higher, NOT assertion of one's mental and moral self;
DIFFERENCE means difference in power, NOT the realization of individuality on
the basis of equality;
JUSTICE means that everybody should get what he deserves, NOT that the
individual has an unconditional claim to the realization of ineherent and
inalienable rights;
COURAGE is the readiness to submit and to endure suffering, NOT the utmost
assertion of individuality against power.

Although the word which two people of different personality use when they
speak of love, for instance, is the same, the meaning of the word is entirely
different according to their personality structure."

What I wanted from SYDA, and what I thought I was promised, was the second
clauses that begin with NOT in those sentences above - freedom,
self-realization, that stuff.  Unfortunately, what I came to accept (up to a
point) was the definitions in the first clauses of those sentences.  
The meaning of love to the sadomasochistic Gurumayi is quite different from
what love really means - love is NOT possession, not seduction, not control,
manipulation, intimidation, exploitation.  I am so happy I lived long enough
to understand that.

Subj:  Re:Watching a video
Date:  96-04-27 10:22:32 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear Dissent and others,

Gurumayi in videos is just like Gloria Swanson in her best role.

At the end of the great movie, SUNSET BOULEVARD, Gloria Swanson comes down
the staircase insane.  You may recall that this is the movie about the
over-the-hill hag actress who hires a young, failed writer to create a script
for her big comeback.  He becomes her kept man, and is ultimately murdered by
her when he attempts to leave, to reclaim his life, to stop being
psycho-woman's gigolo.  

In this staircase descent scene, her makeup is hideous as she mugs the
newscameras, and the police wait at the foot of the stairs to arrest her.
She rolls her eyes and gesticulates insanely, incompetently.  In her mind she
is making a fabulous silent "Movie-star" impression.  In the minds of
everyone else she is an embarrassing excuse for a human being, insane beyond
redemption.

Gurumayi's incredibly bad acting, mugging for the camera, goo-goo eyes, fake
smiles and the rest (which Dissent points out) is really just icing on the
cake.  The meat of a Gurumayi video, the show-stopper, is her Mach 9, Gloria
Swanson style nuttiness.  

The disciples who worship Gurumayi instead of saying "lady, yo' iz nutz" can
be thanked for making sure that her break with reality is and continues to be
absolute. 

Subj:  "Divine bliss," or zombiehood?
Date:  96-04-27 16:16:34 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear AOL readers,

The assumption that it is good--even spiritual--to be stoned all the time on
cult activities is suspect:

<<<In all the world, there is nothing quite so impenetrable as a human mind
snapped shut with bliss.  No call to reason, no emotional appeal can get
through its armor of self-proclaimed joy.

We talked with dozens of individuals in this state of mind:  cult members,
group therapy graduates, born-again Christians, some Transcendental
Meditators.  After a while, it seemed very much like dancing to a broken
record.  We would ask a question, and the individual would spin round and
round in a circle of dogma.  If we tried to interrupt, he or she would simply
pick right up again or go back to the beginning and start over.

Soon we began to realize that what we were watching went much deeper.  These
people were not simply incapable of carrying on a genuine conversation, they
were completely mired in their unthinking, unfeeling, uncomprehending states.
Whether cloistered in cults or passing blindly through the world, they were
impervious to the pain of parents, spouses, friends and lovers.  How do you
reach such people?  Can they be made to think and feel again?  Is there any
way to reunite them with their former personalities and the world around
them?>>>

Subj:  Stoned on God (1 of 3)
Date:  96-04-28 06:20:32 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 1 OF 3

Dear AOL readers,

I first heard her frightening and insane screaming, roaring, hysterics, from
outside the SYDA hall door.  Then the door opened and there she was,
screaming bloody murder, tears covering her face, as two "hall monitors" sort
of carried her (one on each arm) from the meditation hall in which one of the
so-called "Siddha Yoga Intensives" was underway.   A beautifully-dressed,
middle-aged woman--who kind of looked like an overdressed version of my
enormous and bossy third-grade teacher--had gone bonkers.    

Gurumayi and "the lineage of Siddha Masters" isn't controlling "the shakti."
SYDA doesn't understand "the shakti."  "The shakti" doesn't automatically and
unequivocally lead you directly to "self-realization."  As far as these EST
seminars, SYDA intensives, and Shoko Asahara indoctrination sessions go, I
say this:  putting your mind, emotions, and soul in a brainwashing vise and
turning the handle clockwise isn't a recommended procedure for finding
God--it sure didn't work out for that running amok third-grade teacher who
was dragged out of a SYDA intensive raving mad.

SEE PART 2

Subj:  Stoned on God (2 of 3)
Date:  96-04-28 06:22:16 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 2 OF 3

Dear AOL readers,

Not everyone undergoes an immediate mental collapse from the
identity-crushing SYDA practices.  As mentioned, in SYDA, the visibly insane
are removed from programs by hall monitors--they are removed from the SYDA
system.  The others go on to get thoroughly brainwashed.   

A brainwashed SYDA zombie would disagree with my account, and cite good
things that come from SYDA practices.   Let's look at some of these "good"
things.  Getting stoned and euphoric, crying your eyes out and feeling tired
and emotionally numb, seeing inner lights and visions, and experiencing
jerking body movements are among the "benefits" a disciple might recite. 

Are these experiences necessarily good for you in the long run?  Is being
addicted to these experiences, and believing that they are "spirituality"
good for you in the long run?  Are the radical PERSONALITY-TRANSFORMING
effects these experiences sometimes have actually products of the experiences
themselves--or products of the loony interpretations imposed upon them by the
SYDA cult?

RECIPE:  "Mix altered states with SYDA doctrine and stir until radical
personality transformation is seen."  Congratulations--you've just made
yourself a SYDA-zombie.  

Contrary to the parrot-squawks of SYDA experience-talkers, GETTING STONED OUT
OF YOUR GOURD and FRYING YOUR NERVOUS SYSTEM isn't equivalent to
spirituality.  The reason people describe these activities as evidence of
spirituality--as evidence OF THE GURU'S PERFECTION(!?)--is because THEY HAVE
BEEN BRAINWASHED TO THINK THIS WAY IN PRICEY SYDA
ZOMBIE-RECRUITMENT-PROGRAMS, like the intensive and week- (month-) long
courses. 

SEE PART 3

Subj:  Stoned on God (3 of 3)
Date:  96-04-28 06:23:41 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 3 OF 3


Dear AOL readers,

For the sake of argument, let's say getting stoned out of your gourd (from
SYDA practices) and not worrying about the effects this might have on your
brain and nervous system is okay, and even "fun."  Let's say chasing the SYDA
high is "fun," even when some other "bhaktas" go crazy or run off and commit
suicide--as has happened in SYDA.  For the sake of argument, let's say that
spending every cent you have, dumping your career, and turning your back on
your family in order to become a guru-chasing stoner is fun--is a good
"buzz."  Let's say this stoner mentality is what you want to drum into your
children's brains.  

This unacceptable position is still not as ridiculous as the SYDA position
(though the SYDA position encompasses it).  

SYDA claims its mission is DIVINE, and that its disciples are spiritually
elevated renunciants.  So on top of pathetic addictive behavior, one sees in
SYDAites laughable spiritual posturings and delusions of grandeur.  People
parade about in expensive spiritual uniforms (e.g. sunglasses, rudraksha
beads, talismans, saris, tennis shoes) and assault you with explanations of
their SPIRITUAL NAMES.  "My name is Prativindhya, who was the son of
Yudhisthira, and it means  . . ." 

Once again, here's the RECIPE:  "Mix altered states with SYDA's tinkertoy
thought-system and stir until radical personality transformation is seen."
Congratulations--you've just made yourself a SYDA-zombie.  
Subj:  Another ex delurks
Date:  96-04-27 23:12:44 EDT
From:  LifeAftrSY      

I've been reading the collected works of these posts wide-eyed for four
nights. 

I spent almost 10 years enmeshed in SYDA's insanity until I found a
clear-headed nondevotee to help me sort it all out. Thank Whomever that I
never succeeded in killing the will I thought I had to sacrifice to Gurumayi.
Dissent, Howie, ENOMNI, Fibonacci, and Shridevi, I think your posts hit it
right on the mark and it is a pleasure to see some clear-headed discussion of
the poisonous atmosphere SYDA creates.

Looking back, I see there were two official delusions which, for all I
thought and felt, kept me in the thrall and spell of SY and its "teachings":

1) The Siddha Guru is a perfected being who thinks/acts/wills only for the
growth of his/her disciples

2) Merging with this Guru internally is the highest, swiftest, and surest
means to enlightenment and God-realization.

What made me susceptible to buying what SYDA was selling remains a compelling
issue of personal research for me, and I see this board as a means to dialog
about it, both for my benefit and clarity and maybe for others as well.

Howie Sm's quoted material about the longing for euphoric experiences, the
conviction that one should be feeling them all the time, and the attachment
of those experiences to the group or group leader rings especially true to
me.

When I entered SY, I was in near-panic about the ebbing "glow" I used to feel
in my chest as a child and adolescent, which felt creative, intelligent,
reassuring. I was in graduate school and flunking, after having identified
myself almost completely with an image of a successful student. Making the
transition to adult academic life was unexpectedly difficult and frightening.
I would put myself down mercilessly for having feelings that I thought were
disturbing the intended fulfillment of my chosen self-image. I became
underweight, anemic, frightened, and prone to snorting speed to force myself
to work and marijuana to relax. I had some experiences on hallucinogenics
which I took very seriously, and I became convinced that the pace of human
knowledge was too slow for the survival of the planet and there must be a
faster and more effective way than engaging with people's minds. Shortly
after, somebody introduced me to both Siddha Yoga and EST within one week of
eachother, and I had a "mind-blown" experience I also took very seriously. I
was enthralled with all the terminologies of both systems - they seemed to
promise a meta-level means to revolutionary change, and maybe after such
change I would become my hero-self and stop the self-loathing and
patheticism. I was trying to complete a thesis, but insanely threw myself
into assisting EST seminars AND going to events at the SY center. I felt
almost possessed, but also seeking to be possessed because I felt so crazy
(astrology fans: Pluto was conjuncting my Sun-Moon-Mars-Neptune conjunction
in 8th House Scorpio at the time!).

(cont'd)

Subj:  Another ex delurks (cont'd)
Date:  96-04-27 23:48:30 EDT
From:  LifeAftrSY      

Finally, after agonizing indecision, I quit graduate school and EST and moved
into one of GM's ashrams. I had a distinct thought that checking into this
institution voluntarily was far better than being committed to one
involuntarily, a direction I feared I was heading. Even my parents were
mildly supportive (though clearly, if cluelessly, concerned). And my state
did improve somewhat.

Unfortunately, I started to see the ashram as my home instead of a temporary
way-station. I went on staff in the kitchen and limited my social life almost
entirely to devotees. I devoured the Correspondence Course. I took as many
courses as possible, and did more than enough seva to win the trust of the
management. I took, assisted, and occasionally taught Hatha Yoga. I
eventually did virtually every seva in the ashram but manage the place. I
think a lot of devotees may have seen me as a model devotee, with the one
annoying tendency of putting down my mind frequently. It took my almost ten
years to discover that this is what I HAD to do to keep myself on the "Siddha
Path".

I spent as much time with Gurumayi as possible, even going to India twice to
be around her in the "heartland" of SY. I had some very deep and tranquil
meditations at times. I hoped for the day she might pick me for something
special, bring me into the inner circle somehow, but it never happened. To
the end, I remained a gopher, and my main real satisfaction is that I got
pretty good at it.

The end of my relationship with SY was also precipitated by a nervous
breakdown. I decided to save money to take the first Month-Long Course in
Ganeshpuri, and my boss at work agreed to allow me to work 12-hour days
towards that end. A couple months before that summer, I got involved in an
affair with another devotee, and a monkey-wrench was thrown into my plans of
sailing into the Month-Long Course and becoming utterly and finally purified
of this nagging sense of wrongness I could never get rid of. The short-lived
affair was unexpectedly stormy, and it continued into the Course because she
was also attending it. To make matters worse, we were discussing marriage in
India before the course started. I started having the wierd dissociated
feeling I had when I was leaving graduate school, like I was living in a
bubble of denial that I couldn't break out of. As the Course dragged on and
the Rule of Silence was imposed, I began to fear I could really slip off the
deep end, especially after the "secret" install-the-Guru-in-your-body
meditation which did NOT feel like a loving thing to do to myself, despite
everyone's doe-eyed testimonials to the contrary. I wrote Gurumayi about what
was happening with me and she had her secretary tell me to meet Swami
Umeshananda (the former shrink) when I got back to the States, and to do a
lot of sports there too. I told everyone I was surprised and relieved at her
compassion - I expected her to assign me to garden seva or something.

(cont'd)
Subj:  Re:Another ex delurks (cont'd)
Date:  96-04-28 00:05:17 EDT
From:  LifeAftrSY      

After the affair crumbled into patheticness and I returned "home", shaken, I
was immediately faced with the spectre of people telling me how "radiant" I
looked, to which I mumbled something about "burning" a lot (what passes for
sharing real feelings among devotees). By now a lot of things had lost their
appeal - I felt like I was in real trouble but nobody noticed and I had no
tools to deal with it, or even express it adequately without falling back to
numb Ram Butlerisms. After fainting in a Hatha Yoga class given by a
non-devotee outside the ashram, the HY teacher suggested I see somebody he
was seeing for counseling, a NON-devotee, and I began my crawl back to sanity
- a story for another day.

Reading this board has been helpful to me, as well as meeting and talking
with other ex-devotees. I am healthy, married, earning decent money in a
stable job, and as happy as I ever was. Yet I rarely meditate, never chant
(something I kind of miss, but the associations are too tainted for me), and
clearly see my former beloved Guru as a fraud. I needed help, and continue to
need help at times, in separating myself from SY's pernicious ideology, and I
offer that help here in turn. I continue to have dreams at night where I find
myself back at the ashram, feeling helpless and powerless, being told to do
this and that, never even thinking of questioning the powers that be. My ten
years there seem more and more like a long, bad dream.

There is one other crazy-making official delusion I want to spell out here:

3) The Guru-Disciple Relationship is the most important growth relationship
you can have

Yet, Swami Chidvilasananda is clearly a person utterly uninterested in human
relationship, at least any relationship that she doesn't have control over.
This I finally understood after I started working with a nondevotee counselor
who understands and exemplifies relationship.

Questions? Comments? Criticisms? (no flames, please)

Subj:  Who would join SYDA? (1 of 2)
Date:  96-04-28 12:05:09 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 1 OF 2

Dear AOL readers,

LifeAftrSY says

<<<What made me susceptible to buying what SYDA was selling remains a
compelling area of personal research for me,>>>

Alas, everyone is susceptible to buying what SYDA was selling.  The most
shocking revelation surrounding Shoko Asahara's group (the nerve-gas guru) is
that he inducted Japan's best and brightest, people with no prehistory of
dysfunction.   Human psychology and physiology make all of us vulnerable to
cult dynamics.  The openness to influence that makes us able to learn and
form relationships is exploited by cults to turn free (wo)men into cult
slaves.

The important thing in Life After Siddha Yoga is to not lose our capacity for
openness even though we are aware that there are manipulative and sadistic
opportunists out there, like SYDA's dumb-cluck leader--the idiot princess who
somehow inherited a superb brainwashing operation. 

While I think SYDA people are like zombies, I don't think there is anything
wrong with them intrinsically.  If I did, I wouldn't bother blowing the
whistle.  There are real people submerged inside those zombie
pseudopersonalities.  They deserve to be treated liike human beings, not like
Christopher's Jackson 5 puppets (which GM loves so well--see Ethics board for
the relevant newspaper article).  

SEE PART 2

Subj:  Who would join SYDA? (2of2) 
Date:  96-04-28 12:10:11 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 2

Dear AOL readers,

SYDA zombies like to think that people who have a bad experience with SYDA
are, basically, defective ("fallen").  Zombie says, "All truly golden yuppies
LOVE SYDA, and are GRATEFUL to the gurus."  This is wrong.  A survey of
zombies' prehistory shows that cult dynamics are powerful enough to net
people from ALL WALKS OF LIFE, of ALL TYPES.   

Outsiders also think you've got to be disturbed to begin with, if you join a
crazy destructive cult like SYDA (with its God figure, a 40-year old,
plastic-surgery-altered, Latoya Jackson banshee). And given how stupid and
crazy SYDA obviously is, that sounds plausible enough.  But if you look under
the surface, if you look at the sophisticated and effective mind control
methods used by SYDA, you can see that people who have nothing wrong with
them might nonetheless be dragged into the SYDA colossus.  Scientology, which
is patently stupid also, is similarly sophisticated and powerful in its
brainwashing apparatus.   (It is amazing how similar Scientology and SYDA are
to one another.) 

I think people should be held responsible for their own actions up to a
point.  But it's high time that people acknowledged the inherent
vulnerability of being human, before they pass judgment on cult victims.
Except for VEDANTA-STYLE PSYCHOS, SOCIOPATHS, AND EMOTIONALLY
IMMATURE PEOPLE
WHO ARE SOCIAL FLOPS, all of us are open to influence, all of us form
dependency relationships with people, nature, and concepts.  That's what
makes us human, what makes us capable of learning and relating to one
another.  This is a good thing.   

To the question that applies to everyone--<<<What made me susceptible to
buying what SYDA was selling>>>--I say, we are all susceptible because we are
wonderfully human.  I like being human!   

Time to clean out the stable.  Let's stop blaming the victim, and let's start
blowing the whistle. 
Subj:  Re:Stoned on God (3 of 3)
Date:  96-04-28 16:08:56 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      

<<  So on top of pathetic addictive behavior, 
      one sees in SYDAites laughable spiritual 
      posturings and delusions of grandeur.  >>

Keyword:  "grandeur".  Grandiosity is everywhere in SY.  It is grandiosity
which is all pervasive in SY, not the shakti.  From the SY philosophy, to the
ashram architecture, to the day to day thoughts of the sevites who think they
are doing God's will in their silly projects, grandiosity is the common
thread.  

Grandiosity is the mask which denial wears to conceal its own anxiety and
desperation.  

Grandiosity is one of the sources of  the SY high, and anxiety is the power
behind it.  The drive to escape from anxiety -- existential anxiety, anxiety
about our lives, anxiety about the world -- is very strong.  SY philosophy
and practices redirect this enormous force in its followers into a soothing
and self-congratulatory conceptual system.  The anxiety of the devotees
appears to diminish or even disappear.  But anxiety is still apparent
everywhere as denial, and its disguised form, grandiosity.

This anxiety / denial / grandiosity slight of hand is what passes for
personal and spiritual growth in SY.  This applies not only to the devotees,
but also to its leaders -- the "idiot princess" who reigns, and the
self-proclaimed king who proceeded her.  Dissent sarcastically mentions the
diamond brooches, but there is a reason for them:  They serve to objectify
the grandiose. They help keep her in the grandiose.  They help prevent her
from sliding back into undisguised denial, which is just one step away from
anxiety and despair.  The diamond brooches aren't much different than the
solid silver gem studded throne which they worship in Ganeshpuri.  Does a
real man or woman need such things?

Fibonacci

Subj:  Re:Another ex "delurks"
Date:  96-04-28 17:09:12 EDT
From:  Violet1884      

I just want to thank everyone on this board for the help and comfort I have
received over the last couple of months as I have been “lurking” and
devouring the daily posts.  The beautiful post of “LifeAftrSY” this weekend
encourages me to jump on and “take the risk”.  I do not quite know what risk
I think I am taking.  After all what can THEY really do to me?  I am not
going to the SYDA ashrams any more and I am not attending the local center
any more.  I do not buy numerous (and expensive because one never knows
Gurumayi’s plans long enough ahead of time to get the cheaper plane tickets)
air fare to chase after HER wherever she is.  So what can THEY possibly do to
me that would matter to me?  But this is the legacy of 15 years involvement
in SYDA.  FEAR.  Fear that something bad will happen if I reject the guru?
Fear that I will “go to hell’ when I die?  Fear that I will loose all my
friends? Fear that I will get a real bad illness or die in a plane accident?
Fear. Fear. Fear.  That is the legacy that is so hard to shake.  That is, at
least part of the reason it has taken me a long time to really separate from
SYDA.  Discovering this board has helped me take some more steps toward
health and happiness  -  both of which I lost to a considerable degree while
I was involved so deeply in SYDA.  

I was very involved in SYDA at a local level.  I traveled to be with GM
several times every year and spend thousands and thousands of dollars (I mean
that literally) on accommodation, courses, saris, photographs, donations,
darshan gifts, jewlery, puja items, books, intensives.  On and on.  Everyone
here knows what I am talking about.  I worked and worked and worked as
everyone does when they are at the ashram or centers, to the point of
illness.  I became clinically depressed and even suicidal.  All of this in
the hope of what?  In the hope of a smile from Gurumayi?  In the hope of
being recognized by her and praised?  In the hope of the basic promise of
SYDA  -  self realization and true happiness and peace?  

Gradually, oh so gradually, I came to realize that what was going on in SYDA
is abuse.  I sat in Guru Chowk in India and watched and listened to GM
harassing, verbally and psychologically abusing people day after day after
day.  Throughout my time in SYDA I watched others in leadership do the same
thing,  psychologically abusing people while all the time smiling a sweet
smile and claiming love and concern for others.  They were following the
modeling of their leader.  So many times I thought of how unacceptable this
behavior would be in any other context than SYDA.  If my friends or family
outside SYDA treated others in this way I would have had no difficulty in
recognizing it for what it was  -  rudeness and craziness.  Within SYDA we
all saw this abuse as guru’s grace for some unfathomable reason.  

Over the last several years, I have been separating myself and I have never
been happier.  Depression is entirely gone.  I am learning again who I really
am.  

There is so much more.  Getting involved in SYDA is a complicated process and
leaving it is an even more complicated process.  I look forward to
participating on this board and joining with others who are recovering from
the same profound experience that I am.  

Thanks for being here.  

Violet 

Subj:  Gurumaya and Ken Stuart
Date:  96-04-28 15:37:00 EDT
From:  Gurumaya        

With great love and respect, Gurumaya asks you for your comments on Ken
Stuart's reply in alt.yoga.


Subject: Re: SYDA satellite initiation
From: kstuart@telis.org (Ken Stuart)
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 17:21:39 GMT
Message-ID: <3183a0ca.37942720@news.zynet.com>

Hello,

In an eloquent manner, gurumaya@aol.com (Gurumaya) elucidated:

>Dear Siddha Yoga friends,
>
>Some of you are planning on taking the Siddha Yoga Satellite Initiation in
>early May.  Don't do it.  If you like, meditate at home; meet with
>spiritually-minded people at home. Save your $400.  
>
>If you sincerely wish to be initiated by a guru, show yourself some
>self-respect:  take your time to find a reputable guru who will initiate
>you in a scriptural and dignified way.  To be initiated by television set
>in a large group is to be a sucker, and you will be embarrassed and
>disoriented later, even if you feel happy about it now.  
>
>Please give some thought to this question:  what kind of guru would charge
>$400 per person to initiate people all over the world, in numerous
>locations via satellite broadcast?  If you don't like television
>spirituality on Christian evangelical TV, why pay for it now?  Does the
>idea of TV initiations feel right to you, in your gut?  Good luck to you
>all, on your spiritual paths.

This is a misunderstanding of how initiation works.

The "TV" has nothing to do with initiation.   The video satellite
broadcast just makes it more fun, and gives everyone the sense of
participating in the program together with everyone else around the
world.

Intensives are also sometimes held in small centers with no TV at all.

Grace is present all the time.

The only thing that is ever missing is one's openness to receive it,
one's intention.

One can have initiation anywhere and anytime, for example, some people
have experienced it in their own homes.

The Intensive simply provides an opportunity for one to take action
that clearly demonstrates one's intention to open to the spirit.   By
having to physically travel to the center and spend one or two days
doing spiritual practices, one demonstrates - to oneself as much as to
the Guru - one's clear intention.

PS  As far as the cost of the video satellite broadcast Intensive,
this is due to the cost of the satellite broadcast time.   Please go
and price 16 hours of satellite broadcast time on multiple satellites
covering the globe.

Those who aren't interested in paying for the experience of being part
of a simultaneous global program, can instead take an Intensive
locally without the broadcast (at a later date), for less than half
the cost.

And, note that over 99% of Siddha Yoga programs are free,  in fact
almost all programs with Gurumayi are free.    The paid courses help
to defray the costs of running ashrams, renting lecture halls for free
programs with Gurumayi, and so forth.    And, if you look at the cost
of other self-help and spiritual courses and workshops, you'll find
that the Siddha Yoga courses are about average or below average in
cost (especially when in you factor in that overnight accomodations
including 3 meals, are only $25-$30 additional).

PPS   Gurumaya is an appropriate name for you - ie one who spreads
illusions about Gurus.


Cheers,

Ken
kstuart@telis.org

Subj:     Thank you for your welcome
Date:     96-04-28 21:58:39 EDT
From:     Violet1884
To:  Dissent222

To: Dissent222
4/28/96

Thank you for your welcome.  I went for a walk this afternoon after posting
my message and I felt free for having made the step.  Yes, I have read all
the stuff in the Hinduism library and also on the internet.  While I have
known most of it for a long time, seeing it in print somehow makes it more
pressing to consider and face up to.  It is so sad really.  I, and I am sure
every one else, had such high hopes for SYDA and my own growth within it.
Now I find that the growth comes only through the leaving of it.  Thanks
again for your welcome.  I have especially enjoyed your posts and found them
helpful.  You have expressed a lot of what I experience and think.  To find
that there are others out there with the same experiences is very confirming.


How long has this board been around?  I just found it, having only just moved
to AOL from Prodigy.  I discovered it by finding a backlog of AOL discussion
on SYDA in the internet and because of that I moved to AOL so I could find
out what was happening currently.  I am so glad to have found it.  I have a
lot to say and I guess it will come out gradually.  

I applaud your ability to speak out openly.  That is happening gradually for
me.  I do have a few (many 3) friends who have left SYDA whom I can talk to
openly.  I do have friends who are still in SYDA.  I have lost some of them
(they consider me to be “bad company”).  Others have made it clear that they
do not want to discuss anything negative about SYDA.  My response to that has
been to say that if I cannot speak my truth to them, I do not want to hear
all their euphoric chatter about SYDA.  One of them is going to London to the
intensive  -  I can hardly stand it!!  Actually, I find I have some
compassion for those still in it.  I am especially concerned for friends who
are still on staff and have given EVERYTHING they have to SYDA.  Some are
getting older now and I keep looking for the day when they will be “thrown
out” into the world since they will now longer be useful.  I want to say
“face up to things and get out while you can still make something of your
life”. 

Anyway, thanks again for your welcome and good wishes in your recovery.  

Violet.  

Subj:  Replys (1 of 3)
Date:  96-04-28 21:32:41 EDT
From:  LifeAftrSY      

Thanks everyone for the richness of your posts. There is much I would like to
respond to.

ENOMNI, you make an excellent point about the cult of positivity, beginning
your own answer to your question "What kind of people, then, does SY appeal
to?" Actually I find this issue to be rather complex, encompassing the
remarks of Dissent, Howie, Narada, Fibonacci, and Violet which proceeded your
post.

I have always had a very hard time stomaching emotional pain. From childhood
I have hated embarrassment and heartache - hated it. I wanted to construct my
life to avoid it (though I never told anyone this is what I was doing). As a
"path" to this goal, I saw value in knowing about and explaining things. It
seemed to me that the right explanation had the power to heal hurt and
misunderstanding, which to my eyes everybody hated as much as I did. When I
inevitably did hurt someone, I would usually avoid them and often feel guilty
about it. By the time I came to choosing a professional life, these
strategies started backfiring very painfully to me. Into the arms of the Guru
I ran.

But if I wanted to avoid emotional pain, why didn't I run after the first
little instance of abuse in SYDA? Here's where the plot thickens, perhaps
revealing some further layers in Narada/Nietze's points about comfort and
truth. By then I knew that my hatred of embarrassment and heartache was,
using SYDA jargon, "an obstacle". So I used the commandments of SYDA (and
especially painfully, EST) to force myself into situations of embarrassment
and heartache. I attempted to recruit students I was graduate-assisting. I
babbled EST-speak and SYDA-speak nonstop to my roommate until she had to tell
me off completely, and then I babbled some more. I babbled at my parents; my
mother would change the subject and my father, curiously enough, seemed
pleased I was finally "talking". I dragged my parents to EST introductory
seminars. I told my faculty advisor I loved him. I got involved in homosexual
affairs knowing I was not homosexual. I got a into an affair with a lady
devotee, briefly discussed marriage, and endured a lecture by the Center
leader about what Baba said about sex. I say all this to keep the human
dimension running here, lest we veer off into the abstract (a tendency I
share).

(cont'd)

Subj:  Replys (2 of 3)
Date:  96-04-28 21:34:41 EDT
From:  LifeAftrSY      

Eventually I was such a wreck that I quit school and limped into the ashram.
There at least I could hold down some simple responsibilities, work my body
more, and have some closer supervision. I certainly calmed down and saned up
a lot, but I remained deeply distrustful of myself and my own sense of
things. The more I thought of how screwed-up I was, the more it made sense
that I should do what it takes to "let the Guru act through me", and the
reflection I got in the hothouse world of the ashram was yes, indeed, this
was the healthiest, the GREATEST thing for me (for EVERYONE!) to do.

Fibonacci, here's where your erudite observation, "grandiosity is the mask
which denial wears to conceal its own anxiety and desperation", fits in my
story. To escape pernicious feelings of anxiety and desperation, I enthralled
myself with this idea of broadcast-level Shaktipat. I would ascend to
dizzying heights of grandiosity contemplating the implications: I am living
in the ashram, the living extended body of the Siddha Guru, a perfect being
who acts only according to the unconditionally wise and loving Will of God,
who has as her divine mission the historically unprecedented task of
awakening the kundalinis of thousands, perhaps millions of people all over
the world. That means that everything I do to assist her, if not first hand
than in the functioning of her ashram-body, will further this cause, clearing
out all the pollution on the inside so that the outside would follow
naturally, making this a world of yogis realizing their true God-given
destinies on a joyous and triumphant planet of God-Realization. 

And incidentally, I would be taken care of, of course, because this is all
God's Will. Anything that I don't like about it is simply ugly, petty
samskaras being burned away. Behind this supposedly "positive" idealism was a
nasty negative: I had to ignore my mind (unless it upheld SYDA precepts) and
"surrender" my will (if I couldn't kill it outright - GOD what a bother it
was!). I don't think I could have done this as long as I did if it were not
for the constant testimonials that would support the utter ultimacy of the
grandiose fantasy: a crusade to transform the world through Shaktipat into
the service of God's Will, and the ultimacy of failure if I did not: a nasty,
marginalized life (I guess that would be the fine, ordinary but stable and
enriching life I am living now).

Subj:  Replys (3 of 3)
Date:  96-04-28 21:36:49 EDT
From:  LifeAftrSY      

By the way, I second Dissent's recommendation of the movie "Safe" - there is
a great deal in this eerie, disturbing movie I think all of us could relate
to.

The problem was that I was not having any of the experiences of "the Guru's
guidance" I kept hearing about and reading about. No voices, visions,
visitations. I did all the practices and then some as an ashramite, but the
most that would happen during them would be some badly-needed relaxation and
rest. Of course I had learned to fold that into the SYDA success story as
well, in the hopes that "an attitude of gratitude" would eventually attract
the experience of ultimate resolution and divine way-pointing I thought I
wanted.

I did have a few "experiences" with Gurumayi. Once during Guru Gita in South
Fallsburg, I contracted hiccups, and I had the plaintive thought "Gurumayi,
these hiccups are hurting my heart!" She looked up from her book and gazed at
me, and I felt a warm glow in my chest, and my hiccups disappeared! That was
all I needed to prove the truth and efficacy of the "Guru-disciple
relationship" for several months, even years. I also refuse to deny, even
now, a certain elation and what seemed like clarity around her physical
person, such as at the head of darshan line. A couple times she had her feet
down and when I put my forehead on her big toe I would feel an electrical
feeling between my eyebrows, and I would get up dazed and elated (partly from
the knowledge that I was momentarily "special" for having been so blessed).
So I am not willing to say that no kind of energy plays through her. I just
know now that whatever it is, it's not The Unconditional Grace and Love of
God. Certainly her personality doesn't express that. I would be most
interested in what others truly have felt about this "energy". SYDA says it
is pure Shakti, and we all took its word on it. What is it really?


Subj:  Re:Replys (3 of 3)
Date:  96-04-28 23:01:00 EDT
From:  Violet1884      

LifeAftrSY you remind us of the statement in the Open Letter  “ the most
mature response to Siddha Yoga is to leave it.”  That is a very important
statement.  Certainly, for me, a lot changed when I finally accepted the
message that kept coming to me and I kept pushing away  --  “Enough . I do
not need this Guru.  I do not need to be treated this way.”  I was chanting
the Guru Gita when I finally consciously acknowledged this message that had
been there through all kinds of pain and suffering within SY for years.  I
went into the garden in Ganeshpuri and cried and cried as if my heart would
break.  Actually my heart was healing.  At the time I felt as though I had
lost a lover  -  and in a way I suppose I had but not a true lover.  Then
came the long, slow process of truly disconnecting from the organization.  A
process that is taking years.  I came home and left my seva and left the
center and started to try to figure out whether I was a devotee or not.
Tried to figure out who and what Gurumayi was and what was my relationship
with her.  It is gradually becoming clear to me that it does not matter who
Gurumayi is  -  what matters is who I am.  I do not need her to confirm or
justify or define myself.  

All the above is true and from another angle is DOES matter who Gurumayi is
because it does matter when people are abused in any way.  So the
psychological abuse I received from Gurumayi and from her “representatives”
matters and the psychological, sexual and physical abuse others have
experienced from the SY gurus and her representatives DOES MATTER.  Gurumayi
and Baba and whoever else, must answer for this sometime somewhere.  Young
women are not raped and otherwise sexually exploited without some
responsibility being placed on the perpetrator somewhere, sometime.  People
are not criticized and harassed and treated harshly (as I was) without some
responsibility being placed on the perpetrators somewhere, sometime.  I think
they call it karma!! 

And I have to consider whether I, as Gurumayi’s representative at one time,
abused others.  Perhaps I did.  I did not ever mean to but I was just as tied
up in the SYDA system as anyone was and my priority was to do what I thought
Gurumayi wanted more than to pleased anyone else.  So I too will have to take
responsibility for my actions.  And even there, I think the most mature way
to handle the whole complicated mess is to leave SY.  And it is not easy  -
but who said life is easy, right?!!  (Unless of course it is those SY zombies
of Howies speaking!!)

As LifeAftrSY said at the end of his/her first post, I welcome any comments
or responses but no flames please.  I took enough of them when I was
embroiled in SY. 

Violet.  




Subj:  wut's wit da sunglasses?
Date:  96-04-29 06:05:09 EDT
From:  ENOMNI          

Dear Violet, 
welcome, and yes this is a realm of dialogue, as opposed to the SY monologue.
We may not all disagree here, but we'll all pretty much agree that a free
mind is a happy mind. Your post actually reminds me of Jim Jones---in a
peculiar way. This may be no new thought to anyone on this board, but,
supposedly he possessed a magnetic power over his followers, ended up with
quite a harem, was quite abusive in the name of spiritual chastisement, and
of course managed a mass suicide---of zombies who were not fully living
either. I say your post reminds me of this because I remember being in India,
and seeing the so called "burnings" individuals would get by this woman,
perched on a throne, wearing dark sunglasses, looking quite displeased (SY
zombie interrrupts here to claim my projection is at work), and giving
orders, dispensing "blessings," etc. and yet,..........So uncanny, isn't it?

I am reminded of a story by Ayn Rand (sp?), about an individual in a future
society that evolved into a totally conforming zombie-like society. People
forgot how to use the word "I" and never thought in terms of the individual.
This individual, it so happens, stumbles upon some remains/finds from our
world, our time, and his individual mind began to function, question, oppose,
.....and so on.

Cordially,
E

P.S., a little note for Narada:::: watch that Nietzschean resentiment! it
hides your ultimate wille zer macht, clear for all to see on this board. 

Subj:  courage
Date:  96-04-29 06:28:13 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Dear readers,

Although about a dozen or so others have gotten on these boards and told
their tale of leaving SYDA, it is so gratifying when yet another person
"delurks", as LifeAfter and Violet did this weekend.  It is gratifying
because of the cement wall of denial you get from all your old "friends" in
syda, and the aloneness you feel because you don't know how to talk to people
about what you've been through without fearing you'll be perceived as loony.
And even the most understanding people can be really in the dark about what
happens in cults like syda and what it's like to be in and then get out.  And
of course many of us have painted a rosy picture of syda to our friends and
families all these years.  How do we tell them now what it was really like,
and face their confusion, even disbelief?  On the other hand, many of them
knew what we couldn't know all along, and were praying for us fervently, that
some day we would see we were in an abusive cult and we'd get up and leave.
I guess I am very lucky that I didn't completely alienate all my pre-syda
friends, and that when I left, there were still old friends who were still
friends.  Now, on the boards, there are more people who understand.  We help
each other to shed the fear that was indoctrinated into us.  It feels good.

So I really thank all of you who have delurked, and all those still lurking.
If the legacy of SYDA is FEAR and ENSLAVEMENT, then I hope the legacy of
these boards will be COURAGE and FREEDOM.

Subj:  Re:courage
Date:  96-04-29 07:42:35 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear Violet1884,

You say

<<<I just want to thank everyone on this board for the help and comfort I
have received over the last couple of months as I have been lurking and
devouring the daily posts.>>>

Violet1884, I want to thank you, thank you so very much, for the help and
comfort you have offered us with your autobiographical message.

With all my heart I hope that your dreams come true, and that you enjoy
everything life has to offer.  In this particular situation, I've got to
admit I feel comfortable using that GM phrase, "with all my heart," because
(unlike AmyFisherMayi) I REALLY MEAN IT. 

It is gratifying to see the turn of direction in the AOL boards.  Some of you
might have been around when it was all zombies plus Howie (the good old
days?).  Wow, is it different now!  

Subj:  Mental freedom
Date:  96-04-29 08:29:16 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear folks,

Some think something bad might happen if they speak against Gurumayi or SYDA.
I have a friend who has left SYDA and no longer believes that Gurumayi can
bless her, but still believes that Gurumayi can curse her.  I have asked her
to seek counseling, and hope she does.

Well I can tell you that nothing bad has happened to me WHATSOEVER.  I have
had a continuous run of good fortune, good health, prosperity, and freedom
from accidents of any and all kinds for the last decade EVEN THOUGH I HAVE
BEEN PASSING AROUND THE RODARMOR ARTICLE LIKE A
CLINTON-CAMPAIGNER ON
AMPHETAMINES. 

Only good things happen when you contact your real feelings, reawaken your
own aspirations, and tell your story.  I fervently hope that no one, because
of their contact with SY, feels afraid of their own thoughts or feelings.  I
hope people (like my friend) stop reading Gurumayi into coincidences.  

Before I go on my parachuting expedition,  I've got one thing to say:  "HEY
MALTI-MAYI -- YOU NEED A BAG OVER YOUR HEAD MORE THAN A HAT, a gag
more than
a mike, a second-grade primer more than a media crew, a good psychiatrist
more than a good disciple.  As far as your 'zap' power, I'm not impressed
because I've seen that kind of thing in so many places that I am absolutely
clear that'zapping' is not a SPOOKY GODLY POWER but a 'physical plane'
commonplace that people are going to figure out someday--just like they
figured out what causes warts.  The only thing frightful about you is your
haircut."

Well, AOL friends, time to pack my parachute, and then take a nice peaceful
nap.  Don't worry; I never do.

Subj:  Jumping In
Date:  96-04-29 11:40:33 EDT
From:  Agni123         

Here I come.  Another “delurker” (been watching for some time).  Jumping into
what really IS the pond of bliss. Wheeeee!  This feels great!  There is
nothing like REAL love and REAL compassion and REAL friendship.  These are
what I feel this board gives.  I am going to wash off all the old phony that
I allowed to get stuck on me through my decade and a half of SYDA
involvement.  Going to wash away lies, deceit, abuse and all kind of
unhealthy stuff.  Going to write seriously about the SYDA pains and also
going to have some fun with satire based on true SYDA experiences.  

Hi, you all, and MANY THANKS for being here.  What great writing.  What
wonderful support.  What good people you are.  I wish this board was
international as there is a real need for it.  I have friends in other
countries who are also bailing out of SYDA.  They too would benefit from
honest dialog like this.  I know very little about computers, but if anyone
out there knows how to move this boards postings on to the internet, please
do so.  I will be getting back on.  Lots to say. 

By the way, Violet and Enomi, I too was in Ganeshpuri and observed the
routine “flame throwings” in which people were severely burnt after the Guru
Gitas.  The end for me.  Over subsequent years I have managed to keep what I
felt was the best from my time in SYDA (honorable teachings from the anceint
traditions based on the principle of ahimsa) and I have left the rest.  

Love to all, 

Agni

Subj:  Re:Mental freedom
Date:  96-04-29 11:47:53 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Howie, Violet, et al. -

I too have found that thumbing my nose, however rudely, at Gurumayi, is the
best antidote to her attempts to persuade me that I am a worthless nothing
without her, or that calamities will befall me if I reject her.

For example, ripping up all her pictures, and tossing them in the garbage,
has been delightfully freeing;

Blowing out candles instead of pinching the flame with my fingers has been
tremendously liberating;

Not picking up pennies and telling myself that they are NOT Lakshmi has been
very illuminating;

Changing the lyrics of any chants or mantras that come into my head into
strings of TOS terms has been ecstatic;

and many other childish acts of defiance and destruction of mind control have
all contributed to my becoming a real person and not a zombie clone.

Others, if you have found ways of releasing yourselves from fears put into
you by the 
Guru, please share them with the rest of us - we can all have a "Get off my
back and out of my mind, GM and all the rest of you syda-parasites" party.

Don't forget to eat meat, drink wine and have sex  - another delightful way
of telling her to kiss off.

Subj:  now a lurker
Date:  96-04-29 13:13:14 EDT
From:  Soloflyr11      

hi all,

it seems that i did a lot of purification the first three months of this
year, posting  a lot a stuff onto these boards.  don't have that much left to
say these days, though i must admit i do remain a  major lurker.

i have really been appreciating most everyone that has been posting.   it's
so nice to see more lurkers coming out. i much enjoy hearing other's stories
and it is quite heart warming to hear of others that have made the break.   i
also do think that it is quite helpful to post, kinda like a yagna don't ya
think....  reading and writing on these boards was very instrumental in my
making giant leaps forward in my "recovery process".  

howie, dissent, enomni, fibs thanx for your ongoing analysis, humor, and
forthrightness.  loved your dream fibs, but you did get me wrong.  i didn't
talk much about blue pearls, i spent most of my time talking about how
beautiful and divine my guru was...

howie, i much agree with your recent posts about who would join syda.  it is
a very well polished brainwashing system that they have.  i just wanted to
add something i heard about recently.  some anthropologist were doing a study
about initiation rituals in several  tribes in a few different countries.
they all involved the ingestion of a psychoactive plant as part of the
ceremony.  in their analysis what  they began seeing was that one of the
factors that was involved was suggestibility.  by the use of the plant, or
other mind altering techniques (like chanting, fasting, sleep deprivation
etc) the subjects are made to be very open to suggestion.  thus in these
cultures this is the time that the youth are instilled with the tribal
values, mythology, etc.    i could not help but see the parallel's in
contemporary cults.  wouldn't ya agree?  stir in a little mind altering then
mix in " the spiel" and indeed a zombie is born...  

when i was leaving syda a friend that had already left talked with me about
the high.  she was referring to the excitement.  that is another one of the
factors that attracts people i think, that constant excitement, like it's
always a party.  very addictive.  cheap thrills, but  not so cheap in this
case.... (yes i spent thousands too)

and oh violet, i sure have been enjoying  your posts.  i feel like you tell
my story and many others i'm sure. thanks so much!!!  gotta admit a little
secret- sometimes i wonder who you all are and wish that we could all meet
irl....  ; )

thanks to all of you!
  
solo  

Subj:  Deconstruction (PART 1)
Date:  96-04-29 15:16:57 EDT
From:  ENOMNI          

Dear all, I feel i've neglected one of my duties here. A while back someone
left an apologetic post re "initiation." Analysis is forthcoming:

<<The "TV" has nothing to do with initiation.   The video satellite
broadcast just makes it more fun, and gives everyone the sense of
participating in the program together with everyone else around the
world. Intensives are also sometimes held in small centers with no TV at
all.>>

Since when did the idiot box contribute to a sense of human participation
within our culture? No, that was merely rhetorical. If the TV has nothing to
do with initiation, then there is no need for it in regards to initiation. If
the goal of the TV is for fun, then lets call it that, just "fun" and not
attach a spiritual context. There is doublespeak here. As for intensives
being held in small centers without a TV, this does not negate the fact that
a major selling point of satelite intensives is that they are satelite
intensives the implication being that such an experience brings you closer to
God.

<<Grace is present all the time.The only thing that is ever missing is one's
openness to receive it,one's intention.One can have initiation anywhere and
anytime, for example, some people
have experienced it in their own homes.>>

Again, if grace is present all the time, what is the point in needing to do
anything to obtain it, such as, taking an intensive. Albeit, i'll grant this
was just a preamble to the second sentence. The second sentence belies
manipulation. If we agree that the satelite intensive or any intensive is a
source of grace then we are open to recieve grace. If we don't agree the
satelite can bring grace, then we are not open to recieve grace. There is a
leap of logic here--logic being eclipsed by a fallacy in presumptive
reasoning.

***********CONTINUED ON NEXT FRAME****************



Subj:  Deconstruction (Part 2)
Date:  96-04-29 15:36:43 EDT
From:  ENOMNI          

Additionally,

<<The Intensive simply provides an opportunity for one to take action
that clearly demonstrates one's intention to open to the spirit.   By
having to physically travel to the center and spend one or two days
doing spiritual practices, one demonstrates - to oneself as much as to
the Guru - one's clear intention.>>

So it is merely a symbolic act? A ceremonial act? To who is this being
demonstrated to? Is it MERE ritual? Let's call a spade a spade again, and not
become awash amidst a semantic jungle to obscure what we really think. If the
Guru is omniscient, why does she need a symbolic act. If the need is for mere
ritual, then why not call it that--and don't make any claims on initation. If
the purpose of the act is to demonstrate to yourself your intent, then how
far afield are intensive seekers from simply knowing themselves better?

<<PS  As far as the cost of the video satellite broadcast Intensive,
this is due to the cost of the satellite broadcast time.   Please go
and price 16 hours of satellite broadcast time on multiple satellites
covering the globe.>>

Is this the price of an indulgence to court grace?

<<Those who aren't interested in paying for the experience of being part
of a simultaneous global program, can instead take an Intensive
locally without the broadcast (at a later date), for less than half
the cost.>>

Tricky, tricky, tricky. Actually, disingenuous. Might as well say, "those not
interested in being happy....in being rich....can wait for the next unhappy
miserable boat to come along...." Those who don't want to be part of a
"simultaneous global program"---might as well say, those of you who have not
reached the point everyone else has. Those of you not interested in joining
the human race? Global, as opposed to what? Small minded? The suggestion
being those who do not wish to join in, and contribute hard earned money
(yuppies excepted), are really part of a small world....This is manipulative.

<<And, note that over 99% of Siddha Yoga programs are free,  in fact
almost all programs with Gurumayi are free.>>

But the sales pitch is for the costliest programs and the fact of the matter
is that it is almost directly stated that the most expensive course will
bring you more grace. Again, indulgence thinking here. Magical thinking.
Query: can we manipulate God and grace this easily?

<<The paid courses help to defray the costs of running ashrams, renting
lecture halls for free programs with Gurumayi, and so forth. >>

This is inconistent thinking. If the costs are for the defrayal of overhead
and the such, then why didn't Muktananda charge from the get-go. Furthermore,
how come the world's religions, which SY will concede was headed by "Siddhas"
charge? None of them charged or bartered. Followers were free to, and felt
compelled and obliged to give out of genorosity---but they weren't barred
access to the master for a lack of funds. Nay, they were always welcomed. Now
these religions have staying power, and still don't require $$$$$$$$$$ to
access the divine and NOR do they sell their religious practices in such a
manner.

<<And, if you look at the cost of other self-help and spiritual courses and
workshops, you'll find that the Siddha Yoga courses are about average or
below average in cost (especially when in you factor in that overnight
accomodations including 3 meals, are only $25-$30 additional).>>

This is the closest we got to a concession here. The logic is: the costs are
perhaps onerous, but not as onerous as what other's charge. Stealing $400 or
$1000 from several weak people is not as bad as stealing $2000 or plus from
several other weak people? In addition, the above is wrong, it is $25-$30 if
you stay at Sadhana Kutir--the lowest costing building far off from where the
Guru lives and the programs go on at. Again, the implication in SY is that
MONEY will dictate your proximity to their claimed source of grace. 

Subj:  Enomni-propaganda analysis
Date:  96-04-29 17:22:50 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear Enomni,

Thanks for the superb Ken Stuart deconstruction.  You point out very well how
the muddled thinking of the SYDA brainwashed dovetails perfectly with the
mixed messages of SYDA propaganda.      

Here is the EXACT WORDING used in the Siddha Yoga satellite program advert.

<<<The Intensive is the program where Gurumayi bestows shaktipat.  This
transmission of spiritual energy awakens a seeker's own dormant energy, the
kundalini, and thus empowers a life-transforming process of
self-discovery.>>>

This advertisement is making the following claims:

Propaganda Point 1.  Gurumayi is a causal agent.  It is Gurumayi who
spiritually awakens those who pay $400 to watch a boob tube. 
Prop. Point 2.  Those who register will receive spiritual awakening.
Prop Point 3.  Gurumayi can awaken people she has not met.
Prop. Point 4.  Gurumayi can awaken people who are physically distant from
her.

So if suckers get A WEE BIT STONED at the TV show when SYDA force-feeds them
a "kindergarten nap period," they have four pieces of brainwashing ready to
explain why they are stoned.

Zombie says, "I got a little stoned, THEREFORE 

Conclusion 1.  I HAVE RECEIVED A SIGN that ZsaZsaGaborMayi* IS MY GURU
(derived from propaganda point 1 above) 
Conclusion 2.  I have received DIVINE INITIATION (derived from propaganda
point 2 above) 
Conclusion 3.  ZsaZsaMayi has, to some degree, powers of OMNIPRESENCE AND
OMNIPOTENCE (derived from propaganda points 3 and 4 above)
Conclusion 4.  I would do well to RELY ON ZsaZsaMayi in all important life
matters from now on (derived from conclusions 1, 2, and 3)." 

As transparent as it is, this SYDA propaganda works.  The parade of zombies
in front of Gurumayi proves it.  Newflash:  people get stoned all the time
without feeling obliged to become ZsaZsaMayi yes-stooges for the rest of
their lives.  I guess regular stoners just haven't read the same SYDA
brochures that Ken Stuart bases his life on.  

*I extend my thanks to the inventor of the name "ZsaZsaMayi," who I imagine
will read this message at some point. 

Subj:  Guru Di
Date:  96-04-29 17:37:45 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      


Za Za Gabor?   Amy Fisher?   LaToya Jackson?   I think you're missing it.  I
think it's Guru Di.  

Really, have you ever noticed the similarities between Idiot Princess # 1 and
Idiot Princess # 2?  

Fibs

Subj:  Products
Date:  96-04-29 16:35:18 EDT
From:  BVena           

Someone has mentioned that they had put all their SY products into a suitcase
but kept it around a while. I banished my thinks to a closet for a long time.
It all went unceremoniously into the garbage only 2 weeks ago. I replaced the
pictures of GM with glam shots of Annie Lenox almost as soon as Shridevi
started to unfold her tale on line. I wonder why it took so long to dump the
stuff out. 
Products: pictures, books, piece of Babas' clothing, bloody Baba bandage
(pieces of it went into the food at the ashram, sorry folks). As far as
pictures go Annie Lenox is a good replacement if you absolutely need a
shrieking, bugeyed, looneytoon on your wall. At least Annie knows she's camp.
Raj

Subj:  Casting off the spell
Date:  96-04-29 23:41:07 EDT
From:  LifeAftrSY      

Hey Howie, how's this creation from my still-SYDA-addled brain?:

Gurumayi is actually acting in all her disciples' best interests BY BEING
EXACTLY AS SHE IS - that is, corrupt, duplicitous, sanctimonious,
intimidating, abusive, paranoid and glamorous, because what her people need
more than anything else is to have a complete and full experience of
"Gurumaya". So in fact she's a living example of what not to be/do in the
guise of being a living example of what to be/do! A perfect living koan. Now
we can resurrect our faith in the mysterious Siddha lineage, because they in
their infinite wisdom are creating a larger-than-life pageant of spiritual
delusion that all can learn and benefit from! Ommmmmm.......

Thank you everybody for all the wonderful posts, especially Agni. I believe
this discussion will expand, to newsgroups and beyond, because there is a
real need for it. The universe seems to work that way.

I caught myself (as Violet can attest, having caught herself too) using some
SYDA-speak in the "gatekeepers" analogy. I mentioned that "forbidden"
feelings can act as gatekeepers to keep the prisoners (and their money and
labor) in the SYDA belief system. This analogy characterizes our own, rich,
wonderful, mysterious feeling world into something like gargoyles hanging out
above the doorways waiting to pounce. This imagery comes right out of SYDA
and its interminable stories which allow freedom to institutionally
acceptable feelings only.

I really have to say something about feelings - I characterize them
incessently though I know so little about them! SYDA only gave me more and
more fuel for this. Part of my desire to be "good" was really a desire to
feel freely tempered by the knowledge that my guru and her system granted
freedom to only certain feelings. Therefor I wanted to change my feeling
state accordingly, and I thought I "needed" the "power" of the practices for
this. So feelings of anger, rage, hatred and sexuality never got much
exploration in reality, only in guilty fantasy. Of course, that made them
seem more dangerous and threatening, therefor I needed to keep myself in
"good company"... take it away Swami Ishwarananda.

I was very attracted to the idea of working everything out internally in
meditation, so that when it came to "outer" action I would be poised,
perfect, powerful, and make no mistakes. Yet this never happened - the
furthest I could go with this was scriptural pomposity (something all of us
here have seen a great deal of!). I thought GM was such a person, I thought
she embodied that possibility, and I wanted to believe it. Yet I've found
that once the dog starts to bark at the man behind the curtain, the illusion
is inevitably, eventually doomed.

So now I am left with me and my (TOS-TOS-TOS) mistakes and embarrassments. I
made one at work just today that I've been dwelling on ever since. It
shouldn't have happened... maybe I shouldn't be here... maybe I should be
someplace else... I need to run away and be by myself to feel this out...
(tyrannical idealism kicks in) there must be a place for me, a better place
where I don't have to feel these unexplored, unknown, raw, threatening
feelings...  

I submit that Siddha Loka is such a place. A place where people feel only
what they want to feel. A place where death feels like life.

Any thoughts/feelings/experiences/refutations on this?

Subj:  24 hours since delurking
Date:  96-04-30 01:08:44 EDT
From:  Violet1884      

Hi to all  -  and again, thanks for the very warm welcome.  It is just a
little over twenty-four hours now since I “delurked”.  I have had a complex
mixture of emotions about it and I would like to try to express some of them
here.  I agree with Soloflyr that writing and reading here is a great
catalyst to growth in our situations and I intend to take advantage of it as
I move ahead myself.  

I have a kind of excited feeling in my stomach.  Perhaps a little like that
feeling when one FINALLY gets within 5 or 6 rows in the darshan line from GM
and there is that anticipation along with the question  “Will she acknowledge
me tonight or not?”  I think the similarity comes from the perception that
this is a time of potential change and as with all change there is an unknown
element to it.  Tonight, I have a mixture of both hopeful anticipation and
also deep sadness.  

The sadness comes from a sense of loss.  Delurking on this board represents
“telling the world” that I have left SYDA.  Over the last six years as I have
gradually moved toward this I have shared my experiences with one close
friend and a few others.  Most are still in SYDA and were therefore not
willing to either witness or be present for me as I disconnected from what
was almost 100% of my life for the previous decade.  Of course I understand
that attending to what I was going through was far to scary for them because
it may require them to face up to a few things themselves.  However, it meant
that my process of leaving was largely a private affair.  Now, I have told an
unknown number of others (even if anonymously) that I have left and this
signifies a giant leap forward to a place where there is no turning back.
Because of this, the flood gates of the hope and the potential of what I have
lost have opened up and I feel a very deep sadness about it. 

As I have said before, I had a very great hope for SYDA.  I thought it would
be the flavor of the rest of my life.  I trusted it and I trusted GM to
provide the satisfaction that we all hope for in life and beyond.  I know
that is not real.  I know that those things can only come from within me and
never ever ever from without  -  especially not from some other human being I
place high on a Plexiglas throne and give over my power to.  And yet still
there is sadness.  Does anyone else know what I am talking about?  

And, along with the sadness is also a sense of exhilaration.  New potential
and hope is arising as I catch a glimpse of the strength and independence and
maturity that will be mine as I take back my power and foster it with love
and compassion.  

The sadness will go, I know, as the grief reaction runs it’s normal course
and the hope will increase into reality as I take control of my own life
again.  

Thanks, as always, for being here. 

Violet

Subj:  Some responses
Date:  96-04-30 01:10:48 EDT
From:  Violet1884      

I have a few responses to posts over the last 24 hours.  

1.  LifeAftrSY says,   “...endured a lecture by the center leader about what
Baba said about sex...”  

I would say that Baba is not a reliable source of mature information about
sex!

2.  Dissent says  “It is gratifying because of the cement wall of denial you
get from all your old "friends" in syda, and the aloneness you feel because
you don't know how to talk to people about what you've been through without
fearing you'll be perceived as loony.  And even the most understanding people
can be really in the dark about what happens in cults like syda and what it's
like to be in and then get out.  And of course many of us have painted a rosy
picture of syda to our friends and families all these years.”

This is true in my experience.  There is indeed a cement wall of denial from
old SYDA friends.  Some of mine say that they want to hear what I have to
say, but they do not.  They listen to anything I say with glassy eyes and a
sanctimonious attitude that is indeed like a cement wall.  There is no
getting through it to a real person.  Others, who in many ways are more
honest, say that they do not want to hear about anything negative about SYDA.
About the various publications, some say “I am not going to read them.  They
are ‘yellow journalism’ and anyway, I am going to trust my own experience.  I
do not need to put that junk in my mind.”  Others say “I have read the
publications and they are probably true, but I am going to keep on with my
sadhana anyway.”  The last, in some ways is the worst because it is actually
saying that “even though my brothers and sisters have been abused, verbally,
psychologically, physically and sexually, I am not going to be concerned
about it.’  This is the kind of thing that happened during the holocaust.  It
is also saying, that even though the Guru I thought was a perfected being has
and is acting in totally unacceptable ways for even a mere human, I am going
to ignore it and continue to worship her.  Wow, the price of loss of
integrity here is enormous!

An yes,  it is kind of embarrassing isn’t it, to have to admit that the
system we spoke of in SUCH glowing terms does indeed have some MAJOR flaws!!
As I consider taking back the name my family gave me in place of my
“spiritual name” I am embarrassed to think of how I am going to tell my
family this after my having insisted that they call me by my “new” name given
to my from an “Indian Saint” they had not understanding of!!  Weird!

3.  Dissent 222 says  “Don't forget to eat meat.....”

There were some amusing things in your post Dissent and I believe that we
must all do whatever it is that we have to do to recover from this very
profound mind-altering experience we have all been through.  However, we do
not agree about “meat eating”.  In my experience, being vegetarian is not a
very firmly held principle of most SYogis!  

I was a vegetarian for many many years before I ever heard about SYDA.  I
choose not to eat animals because of animal rights values and I have believed
since I was in my early 20s that it is not necessary for us to kill to get
protein.  So when I discovered SYDA I was delighted to think I had found a
community who also held these values.  Not so!!  There were very few SYogis
that I met who were truly vegetarian.  Most people piously upheld the
principle of vegetarianism in public but in private ate whatever animal based
food they wanted to!  “Important people” from SF would come to our center
(including the oft mentioned Ram Butler) and could not wait to get out into
restaurants to eat the local flesh oriented delicacy.  I remember one time
chatting with a VERY HIGH UP outside of the amrit in SF while she ate a tuna
sandwich purchased from that little grocery store next to the Arati Store.
All this made me sick.  It is another example of the phoniness and lack of
integrity that was a major part of separating me from SYDA.   

Subj:  Woops  -  ran out of space!
Date:  96-04-30 01:12:45 EDT
From:  Violet1884      

Continued from last post...

So for me, “telling GM to get off my back and out of my mind” is being
genuinely vegetarian for the most humane of reasons  -  animal rights  -
rather than pretending to be vegetarian for the most self-centered of reasons
-  so I can have a better meditation experience!

Then there is the whole issue of GM and her pedigree dogs but I will get into
that another time!!!  

4.  Agni says ...  “...keep the best and leave the rest...”

By the way, Welcome, Agni!  You and I share the same “delurking” date!!  It
is my hope that through this board we will both learn to clearly identify
what is the “best” to keep and separate it from “the rest” to leave.

Boy, the flood gates are truly opened and I have to stop my fingers from
typing before I fill up all of cyberspace in one night!!  

Thanks, as always, for being here. 

Violet


Subj:  The Guru's Canines
Date:  96-04-30 04:10:13 EDT
From:  ENOMNI          

Well, Violet,
it's true no doubt that a certain degree of embarassment might exist as to
explaining to former friends and family that SY is the exact opposite of what
you've been saying it is. It's also true that the risk of alienation of those
adherents to SY is quite high and most likely to occur. Nevertheless, perhaps
you can feel happy that you took risk. To venture out and embrace a "path"
--inconsistent with the general culture shows independent thinking---However,
I think many in SY are those who get stuck patting themselves on the back in
regards to this inconsistency. They then form a subculture, just as contrived
as the mainstream culture. What you may be applauded for is springing out of
the subculture that may arguably be said to get part of the fuel for it's
identity from it's denial of the norm.

So, in retrospect, you may say to your friends and family that you took a
risk, and you have gained insight into a trap. Such insight is applicable to
all human traps no doubt. As for present SY devotees, personally, I enjoy
planting the seeds of discontent that they may "awaken from their dogmatic
slumbers" --(as Kant said upon reading Hume).

If it makes you feel any better---i once had the strange, but now in
hindsight, "fitting", experience of watching GM's two "pedigree dogs" mount
one another despite her attempts to restrain them.

Cordially,
E

Subj:  Re:The Guru's Canines
Date:  96-04-30 04:21:42 EDT
From:  ENOMNI          

Dear Comrades, 
Unsatiated with my former deconstruction, I looked into the supporter's forum
to find a response to the essay a lot of us read lately. Here is a very
revealing response:

<<I downloaded and read your "final essay"(did you mean Master's Thesis?),
and thought that is was a piece of crap. It is amazing how easy it is to get
a Master's degree.  There was no substance to the thesis. >>

Can you find the contradiction? It's so easy to find. The first two sentences
fail to support the conclusory nature of the third sentence.

<<It was the person's own cathartic journal writing based on their "feelings"
and the "final essay" was without emperical data or analysis.  It was
basically a long BBS post. >>

Again, failure to specify the very detail, data, and analysis called for in
his/her opponent. Additionally, a sure sign of weakness within an argument:
ad hominem attack hiding behind a veneer of claims to substantiality. Rather
than attacking specific lacks of substantiality, a claim of it's lack is
made, amidst the more poignant and drawn out attack on a person unknown to
the writer. 

<<I used to be a social worker and some of my co-workers were quite disturbed
themselves.  You know what is dangerous?  The author's unresolved feelings
about their past experience.>>

When in doubt, define the opponent's unconscious, and then,

<< I would not be surprised if one of the author's motivations for pursuing a
carrer in social work is to gain a sense of power and control over others.>>

Move in and apply a rigorous hermeneutics of suspicion. The problem here is
in the clearly stated generalizing from the particular, extrapolation of
individual experience, and reduction of the motives of the opponent to mere
motives based on a will to power.

This is the entire "refutation" if you may call it that. I just thought
pointing out some of the wholes in this thinking would be self-revealing.

Cordially,
at your service,
E

Subj:  delurking
Date:  96-04-30 06:01:58 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Dear Violet, Agni, Life - and all other past and future delurkers -

Your contribution here is superb and I thank you - it feels so validating to
hear from others, although this in no way means I don't love hearing from the
regulars.  But each time a new voice comes on the board, it is uplifting
(remember that word?) and it gives me hope that eventually, more and more
people will cease to be enslaved and exploited in syda.

And Violet, all joking aside, while I have no problem not being a vegetarian,
I strongly respect your views about it and your decisions about it, and I
agree that the vegetarianism of syda is a charade.  I should say that so many
staff are so unhealthy that most of them have been prescribed by doctors that
they eat chicken and fish, and most of the condo and Sadhana Kutir cottage
residents are cooking their meals there.  NOT that they get any extra salary
to buy food - so if they're not independently wealthy, too bad if they're not
healthy.

Finally, Violet, I know only too well the deep sadness and loss involved -
and it's infuriating, too, to have been swindled and deceived and betrayed.
I am lucky to have half a dozen or so live friends who left syda to talk to
about this, and also the people on this board.  So sometimes, I feel the
profound loss and sadness, and sometimes I feel the searing rage.  And
sometimes, I feel the bliss of having stood up for myself - I feel like I'm
alive in my body in a visceral way that I had lost, I feel like I have plans
and goals and am using creativity that are for me and my family and the
community at large - and not for Gurumayi.  It's like I stopped being a pod
person serving the pod person planet, and I'm back to being a human being
amongst humans, on this planet.  OH GOD, it feels good to be free of the
secret life of worshipping and adoring a PERSON PRETENDING TO BE GOD WHO IS
REALLY A VAIN, SELFISH, GREEDY, BRAINLESS, SADISTIC WITCH !!!!

Which is not to say that having loved someone so much and discovering how
false they have been doesn't cut like a knife - for me, like a 13 year
marriage ending in a horrible, bitter, mind-blowing divorce.  But it's been
almost 2 years since the divorce, and I'm here to tell you that TALKING ABOUT
IT, OR WRITING ABOUT IT, OUT LOUD, IS THE BEST HEALING!!!  And it helps
others.

Thanks again to all.

P.S. - did you know that GM's dogs are trained to attack and disable, on
command.  I'm not sure that they are trained to kill people, but one of those
dogs is a pit bull.  Some people I know were allowed to bring their dog,
because they were an attractive, wealthy-looking yuppie couple, but they were
scared to death by one of GMs secretaries (i.e., battered spouses), who told
them that if the dog crossed paths with one of GM's, and if their dog was not
on a tight leash, GM's dog could attack and kill their dog.

guns, attack dogs - who says she's not as crazy as other gurus?

Subj:  To Aljames847 (1 of 2)
Date:  96-04-30 07:27:15 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 1 OF 2

Dear Aljames847, 

You say

<<<There was no substance to the thesis.  It was the person's own cathartic
journal writing based on their "feelings" and the "final essay" was without
emperical data or analysis.>>>

Al, please note that "emperical" (sic) is spelled "empirical."  

I disagree with you Al, and think that anyone involved in SYDA would do well
to read it.  The following excerpt from the thesis, for example, is a
substantive insight, supported with as much scholarly apparatus as anyone
could want.  I'll cite it in a second, but first want to say a couple of
things.

Scholarly apparatus aside, the author's humanism is a welcome and needed
feature, one sometimes missing in the therapeutic literature.  It is
inspiring that someone subjected to years of sadistic abuse by a truly
deranged guru could nonetheless come out a whole human being, capable of
transforming that experience into a substantive and subtle point of view
which will bring comfort and insight to others.  The humanism of this essay I
take to be an example of the indomitable power of the human spirit.  And the
author's willingness to come forward with the essay--even after Lis Harris's
harrowing experiences of SYDA intimidation--is nothing less than sheer
generosity of spirit.  Just because it doesn't fit your (Al's) private and
pedantic notion of "correct academic expression" doesn't might it won't
significantly influence the hundreds who will read it, both in SYDA and in
the therapeutic community.  

Al, research methods and style are not a rigid absolute, fixed across time,
but evolve according to the content of what is being conveyed.  Al, this is
flexibility fits under the rubric of CREATIVITY--which is truly the core of
any good research in the social sciences or humanities.  Your (Al's)
pseudoscientific critique, in my opinion, reveals a rigid dependency on a
bygone paradigm which was abandoned even by the "hard sciences" earlier this
century.

SEE PART 2

Now, let me cite from the essay itself.

BEGIN QUOTED MATERIAL<<<The literature on working with former cult members
stresses, for the most part,   that the pathology induced by the cult itself
must be acknowledged, and the former  member must be helped with the array of
problems resulting from this induced  pathology, before any pre-existing,
underlying pathology is assumed or explored (Addis  et al.; Clifford, 1994;
Giambalvo, 1993; Goldberg, 1993; Goldberg et al., 1982;  Goldberg, 1993;
Halperin, 1990; Hassan, 1990; Kliger, 1994;  Langone, 1993;  Langone and
Chambers, 1991; Martin, 1993; Martin and Langone, 1992; Morse and  Morse,
1987; Tobias, 1993).  To do otherwise, for these authors, invalidates the
reality of the client, constituting a stigmatizing message from the worker
that the  victims' traumatic experience has more to do with their
psychopathology than with the violations perpetrated by the group.

I strongly agree that cult victims can be unfairly stigmatized or
pathologized.   However, I suggest that workers risk creating a false
dichotomy when we polarize the  issues of pre-existing pathology and induced
pathology in cult victims; and further,  that framing the issue in terms of
pathology is, from the outset, counter-productive.   All human beings
struggle with dependency, with separation and individuation, and  with
conflicts over active and passive wishes and fears.  These are universal
developmental issues.  As Herman points out, referring to Erikson's (1980)
life cycle  stages, "trauma forces the survivor to relive all her earlier
struggles over autonomy,  initiative, competence, identity, and intimacy."
Once a person is exposed to a thought  reform program and the traumatic
violations that ensue, developmental crises will be  restimulated, whether
they were adequately resolved previously or not.  The concept  of "blaming
the victim" is misused, and unfair to the client, if it encourages workers to
overlook pre-existing factors which may have contributed to the client's
victimization.   Victims can and should be helped with both the induced and
pre-existing aspects of  their problem, at the appropriate points in
treatment (Addis et al.; Clifford;  Giambalvo; Goldberg, L.; Goldberg, W.;
Hassan; Morse and Morse;  Tobias et al.).>>>END QUOTED MATERIAL  
Subj:  Meditation instructions
Date:  96-04-30 12:29:14 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      


Swami Fibonanda gives meditation instructions:

I have found it uncomfortable to meditate in the old SY way.  Not that
there's anything wrong with a traditional Indian mantra, but the inevitable
associations with SY are annoying.  I once read in a book about an elementary
Zen technique and I decided to try it.

1.  Sit or lie down comfortably.
2.  Breathe normally.
3.  For each breath count:  1, 2, 3, etc.
4.  When you get to 10, start over.

It works fine.

Important spiritual paraphernalia add-ons:

What type of asana to sit on:      None
What type of beads to wear:             None
Which meditation oil to apply:          None
How many times to bow before & after:   None
Which special asana to sit in:          None
Which hand mudra to use:           None
Which guru to "install" in your body:        None

How often and how long to meditate?  Not too often and not too long.

Try it.  I'm glad I did.

Fibs  


Subj:  Thoughts
Date:  96-04-30 13:02:04 EDT
From:  Agni123         

Greetings all.  I am SO enjoying this board.  Many thanks for the welcomes.
Special thanks to LifeAfterSY, Dissent222, Violet and Howie.  Hope I haven’t
left out anyone else.  If I have it is unintentional and happened merely
because I find there is sooooo much I am trying to keep track of on the board
that I want to respond to.  Also, so much else that I want to write about.
Like you, Violet, and I’m sure like others of you, I want to just write,
write, write and be constantly on the board.  I think you referred to it as
wanting to “fill cyberspace.”  Let’s do it!
     I know part of this is the excitement of being a “newcomer” and feeling the
release of  being able to speak freely with  thoughtful, understanding,
intelligent and insightful people.  People who share my SYDA background.
People whose brains are engaged and whose energies are not enslaved by the
denial and service to their own egos that characterizes SYDA devotees.  For I
think that what so many in SYDA want to fool themselves into thinking of as
“service to the Guru” is REALLY service to their own egos.  It is service
performed in hopes of getting some Guru reward, e.g., a smile ... perhaps.
(Don’t count on it, however, because the most reinforcing rewards are those
given intermittently, aren’t they?  That is why battered spouses stay, isn’t
it?)  So, ultimately guru seva is self-serving (narcissistic) in terms of
serving the “self” that is spelled with a lower-case “s.”   Of course, after
performing guruseva  the server reads ANY  of the guru’s actions as  “some
message” of thanks for the service ... or as a criticism of the spirit in
which one served ... or whatever.   It is no surprise is it that  “service to
the guru” is called the “highest form of service” by, guess who, the guru?
     Concerning the criticism of the essay by “Al,”  that is really no surprise
is it since in SYDA out of one side of the mouth the message is “trust your
own feelings/experience” while out of the other side the message is “but
don’t trust your own feelings/experience if they have anything to do with
anything ‘negative’ about SYDA.”   Another SYDA double-speak (duplicity) is
being told to “develop discrimination” ... “but don’t  use it to identify or
think about anything that is disturbing, immoral or inconsistent about SYDA.”
So, it is not unexpected to have Al (or others who are trying to remain in
SYDA) use the same, tired old zombie responses of trying to kill the
messenger in various ways when the messenger trys to wake the zombies up.  I
know these responses.  I speak from a lot of  personal experience.   I too
was a SYDA zombie.  I tried for many years to  “kill such messengers”,
including my own inner messager which spoke within me as the Self (with a
capital “S”),  whenever they tried to tell me about what was immoral about
SYDA. 
     I remember very clearly that soon after I entered SYDA I heard from a
reliable source that Baba had “bugged the Oakland ashram.”  However, I was in
my honeymoon days with SYDA then and I stayed on even though my rational Self
abhorred that I did.  So, a large part of me (the part that has always
believed in human rights and the rights of all creatures, etc.) knew I was
violating it by staying.  There began my own self-abuse.  For it is abusive
to put down one’s moral nature (the aspect of my Self or of the Self that I
view as being based in ahimsa, i.e., non-violence).    SEE NEXT POST

Subj:  Thoughts (2)
Date:  96-04-30 13:03:22 EDT
From:  Agni123         

     So, SYDA is not only abusive in its own ways but it also fosters self-abuse
in its followers.  Why did I remain for so long?  Honestly it was because for
a long time I tried to fool myself into thinking that the SYDA rewards were
worth more to me (to my ego) than the SYDA  ethical violations  that were
happening to “other”  people.  I was narcissistic.  Plain and simple.  After
all, I was already  “in the inner circle” wasn’t I?  “I” knew about the bugs
so that meant “I “ already knew something about how to walk through the
minefield.   “I” wouldn’t make the mistake of saying anything out of turn,
i.e., anything critical about SYDA, so “I” could stay in good graces ...
couldn’t I?  
     Of course, there was a trade off  wasn’t there?  Because in learning about
the bugs  I also learned that the guru wasn’t omniscient, didn’t I?    But I
tried to dismiss that by thinking it was only Baba who wasn’t omniscient ...
other SYDA gurus probably were so I would simply put my faith more in them.
Easy.  But, as we all really know, it wasn’t easy.  It didn’t feel good.  I
never forgot what I was trying to suppers through denial.  Thank God, it
always nagged away in my conscience ... in the place where the Self dwells
within.  Now I am enjoying freedom from the duplicity that I carried for so
long within.  Because basically I AM a good person and in leaving SYDA I
returned to being more completely one with my good Self.
     As I said in my first post I am keeping what I believe was the “best” about
SYDA and leaving the rest.  Separating the grain from the chaff.  I did learn
a great deal via SYDA and had many experiences that I continue to value
highly and maintain and use in my daily life.  For me, part of this is
learning about ego and the self (lower self) and the Self (greater Self,
i.e., inner power that is in everything).  I find these ways of thinking
useful so will use them in my posts.   Well, gotta dash.  See you soon.

Subj:  Long Speak Pt 1 of 4
Date:  96-04-30 20:44:10 EDT
From:  Agni123         

PART ONE
     Violet,  I share your disappointment that so many of “devotees in SYDA did
not really practice ahimsa  re: being vegetarian.  In other words, on the
side they continued to eat the murdered, dead bodies of innocent creatures.
By “on the side” I mean when they somehow felt they weren’t being observed by
the guru.  I doubt that any of them would have eaten flesh in front of the
guru.  
     Here I found another duplicity.  Somehow it seemed that the same people who
thought they could sneak bites of flesh also thought that the guru was
everywhere ... was omniscient,  omnipresent and aware of all of their needs
and actions.  A few years ago I talked with a former devotee who had left
SYDA after years of exploitation at a SYDA ashram.  Angrily, that person told
me, “I am now forcing myself to eat flesh again because for many years I was
vegetarian FOR Gurumayi.”  I said, “I think you missed the boat.  You missed
the point that one is not vegetarian to please another person but instead to
prevent the horrible abuse and murder of the creatures one eats when
consuming flesh.  I think that by returning to flesh-eating you are taking
your anger and disappointments about SYDA out on innocent creatures.”   So,
that is my point of view on vegetarianism.  Also, I think that by eating the
bodies of those who are abused and murdered one is putting into oneself their
fears and sufferings.
     I do understand that we all approach recovery from our SYDA abuse in
different ways and  I respect the need for such diversity.  Also, I wanted to
respond to Violet’s point and put out my thoughts about vegetarianism.  Of
course the Hindu path is a vegetarian path and  in rejecting SYDA I am not
rejecting what I value in Hinduism.  Yes, I too know SYDA staff and devotees
who “were told to eat flesh” because of poor health.   About this I felt
various things, including:   a)  often this kind of advise is given by health
advisors who are not vegetarian themselves (it is well known that doctors who
consume large quantities of alcohol tend to minimize similar behavior in
their patients ... to normalize their own drinking);   b) possibly the
“patients”  who returned to flesh-eating wanted to follow this advice because
they wanted to continue with flesh-eating or simply because they  had become
accustomed to “following orders”, c) perhaps some of these “patients”
suffered from eating disorders such as depression, anorexia or poor eating
habits;  d) possibly these tired, unhealthy devotees didn’t eat  well from
the variety of good vegetarian foods that are available, and finally, and
perhaps most importantly,  e) probably they would  become much healthier if
they simply left SYDA, got some sleep, saved some money, got rid of the
depression that comes with SYDA and ate a well-balanced vegetarian diet.
     I know many SYDA devotees who are depressed and exhausted.  Many have gone
onto anti-depressants.  (I don’t think this is good testimony for a path that
is supposed to make one happier and stronger.)  Concerning my own depression
I found that it was extensive and especially difficult during the times in
SYDA when I was working hard at trying to remain in SYDA and accept what I
knew was wrong-doing there.   In other words, during the long periods of
cognitive dissonance.  My depression continued for many months immediately
after I left SYDA as I went through the difficult process of leaving and
trying to make peace with what I had done to myself by remaining in SYDA for
so long.  Now I am increasingly regaining my own happier nature.  I attribute
my recovery to leaving the duplicity of SYDA and returning to a state of
inner peace and equilibrium where my actions match what I believe to be
purity, goodness and service to myself, loved ones and the world community of
humans, creatures and the environment.  I do find that giving service
relieves and prevents depression ... but not giving service to the involuted,
self-serving SYDA  structure.

Subj:  Long Speak part 2
Date:  96-04-30 20:46:11 EDT
From:  Agni123         

PART TWO

     Somehow for awhile while I was in SYDA I did feel like I was serving
something greater than SYDA, but I came to realize that I wasn’t.  Except for
a little bit of help given to a few poor people (local adavasis around the
ashram) in India, it seems that the enormous and wealthy SYDA Foundation does
very little for the world community.   We have seen SYDA devastatingly
destroy natural environments that were homes to many trees, plants and
creatures.  I don’t like the closed, fenced (sometimes with barbed wire),
artificial structures created in their place.  I do think that the periodic
SYDA eye camp is wonderful .... and .... so MUCH more good could be done with
all of the money and free labor that SYDA has available.
     For example, I look with interest at the MANY wonderful things that Ammachi
(“Ammritanandamayi” or “Amma”) is doing with the money and labor that she has
available.  I am not a devotee of hers but have seen her a  few times over
the years during her world tours.  I highly respect her tremendous service
and good works.  So does the Hindu community.  Ammachi is highly honored in
this community as a spiritual and social leader.  I read an account of this
gurus good works in an 8/95 issue of the Indian Express.  Have some of you
been reading about her?   Ammachi serves the needy and does not sit with
money boxes at her feet during her frequent and usually very lengthy
darshans.   It is not uncommon for her to give darshan all night long as well
as for many hours day after day.   Among the good works  being planned and/or
already established in India by her organization are:   hospices;  a hospital
with an herbal garden attached for preparing some medications;   various
schools (ranging from nursery and primary schools through
job/service-oriented education in computer usage programs, industrial
technical training, and a medical college ), temples and ashrams.  Also, some
years ago Ammachi took under her wing a large orphanage that was in
deplorable condition.   The Mata Amritanandamayi Mission Trust is active in
many parts of India.   So, good works ARE  being done by some spiritual
organizations. (I hear that at SYDA a ‘list’ is kept of  the names of SYDA
devotees who visit Ammachi’s programs.  How “Nixonian”, i.e., paranoid and
controlling.  Yet another example of abusive tactics.)    Good works that are
not self-serving.  As I understand it, community service is part of what
Ammachi expects from her devotees.  It is a practice.  During my years in
SYDA it always bothered me a great deal that so little service was given
outside of the SYDA community.  Also, so much money was lavishly and
continuously spent on  decorating and “entertaining the troops” and the guru
instead of going to worthy causes.              
     An aspect of SYDA that I  did find appealing  was the presentation of wisdom
from various major spiritual paths.  The duplicity was that while the wisdom
of great teachings was presented it was not always followed, i.e., thus was
not taken seriously as models for actions.  For me this was another major
reason why I left SYDA.  I continue to study a variety of spiritual paths and
to try to incorporate into my life actions those teachings which seem
virtuous to me and which thus help myself and others.  I wonder if others on
this board are doing likewise? 
     I noticed the recent post about the Gurumayi’s attack-trained dogs.  It
caused me to remember a video from Baba’s time called, “We Came as Dogs.”  In
it we saw Baba’s dogs, I think one was named Bhuvani???, being roughly
treated as part of their defense training.  No doubt some other “old timers”
will recall this.  

Subj:  Long Speak part 3
Date:  96-04-30 20:47:12 EDT
From:  Agni123         

PART THREE

     I enjoyed your post, Howie, about “taking care of a problem with
cockroaches”  (I love the humor on this board)  and how you carry bugs
outside instead of killing them.  Me too.  For me it is always important for
those who are stronger and more powerful to be kind guardians for those who
may be weaker or smaller or whom we might otherwise be able to harm or
trick.  Those gurus who are immoral need to get this message.  
     Would someone put on the board the name of the book on cults written by
Steve Hassan and also say if  the movie “Safe” is on video?  Also, I have a
few more random questions I wonder if anyone out there knows the answers to.
What is happening with the enormous piece of land that SYDA purchased a
couple of years ago in Australia.  Are Eugene Callendar (?sp),  Meg
Christian, Phylicia Rashad and/or Peter Hayes still associated with SYDA?  I
heard that Joe Pearce left a while ago now.  How long has this board been
going on?    When did it start up?  
     Recently it was asked on a post “why do the SYDA seductees stay in it for so
long.”  We’ve seen many reasons why.  Some remain because they gave all of
their financial resources and years of their lives to SYDA and so they now
feel completely powerless to leave because they have no money, may have
“burned the bridges with family and pre-SYDA friends, and they have lost
their job skills and current job references.  In other words they feel like
they have given ALL of their power away to SYDA and simply can not make it in
the “outside” world.  They have not safty net.  I know such people and I feel
tremendous concern and compassion for them.  I worry about what will happen
to them if they are kicked out as many are.  For them it feels imperative
that they MUST conform to the the guru/SYDA system’s will and wishes.  For
some, I think it literally may feel like a matter of life or death.  A friend
who managed to leave after many years of living in SYDA ashrams told me about
knowing someone who lived in one of the ashrams who was “afraid to leave for
fear of being killed if he/she left.“  This is SO tragic.  I don’t believe
that this person’s fear is realistic because I have known people (including a
swami)  who have left  without being directly threatened or harmed.  Also,
this board has others on it who have left  SYDA.  However,  I can understand
how such a fear might enter the mind of someone who is conditioned by total
obedience, compliance and fear.   I often think about this person I was told
about.  I wonder if she/he ever made it out or is perhaps still living
fearfully in a  SYDA ashram, maybe even stark raving mad by now.
     So, life goes on.  And for those of us on this board it clearly is and will
continue to go on better because we left SYDA.  Leaving SYDA is not “failure”
(as some may have felt at times).   Instead it is a triumphant success of
one’s moral Self.  It is a time of triumph any time one leaves abuse ... when
one is UNwilling to support it or be part of it in ANY way.   Physical,
sexual, psychological and financial abuse  must be left.  Common sense tells
one that.  But common sense  can be difficult to follow unless it is
respected.  Now I view common sense as one of the Self’s many voices and I
pay very close attention to it when it speaks.  Sadly,  for many years I
tuned it out.
     We human beings have a way of being so hard on ourselves and making such a
big deal out of what we do.  Some say that the possibility of “failure”
exists in anything that one undertakes.  If so, so what if we do “fail” at
some things?  Some things are not worthy of mastering anyway.  And, really
does “failure” ever occur when growth results from change?

Subj:  Long Speak part 4
Date:  96-04-30 20:48:20 EDT
From:  Agni123         

PART FOUR

     For me, a major part of life is accepting the challenge to make changes.
Actually it  begins with simply “knowing when” it is important to change
one’s life’s  directions ...  to interrupt and change the direction of where
one thought one was headed.   (For many years I thought I would surely be in
SYDA for the rest of my life.  No doubt about it.)  I believe that such
change is always right when it involves leaving immorality to redirect one’s
self toward morality.  It seems to me that staying on a moral (i.e.,
non-violent) course is what the challenge of living a human life is really
all about.
     Once one learns that abuse is occuring, it feels wrong to me to support it
in any way.  Even though I was not severely abused in SYDA  personally,
eventually I left it in support of those who had been or were being.  I admit
that I hung around too long.  My good conscience had to wait around for a
long time for me to act on it.  The process of leaving was slow.  But
gradually and increasingly I separated from SYDA as I came to realize
incrementally that this path was not pure.  Initially I had hoped /trusted
with all of my heart that it was. 
     By the time I left SYDA for good I knew that much of what was printed in the
11/94 New Yorker article was true as well as other wrong-doings.  What a
waste of hopeful people’s good will.   Or, was it?  Perhaps we didn’t lose as
much as we thought.  Now I think that I understand that “being a spiritual
warrior” primarily means being willing to act against abuse wherever it
occurs.  Doing so may mean giving up that which one “thought” one loved the
most.  But ... that which I thought I loved and admired more than anything
else, i.e., Gurumayi/SYDA, was an illusion and trying to see it became
increasingly difficult.  Eventually the smoke of the yajna made  the crystal
gurus opaque and the heat of the yajna cracked the mirror that I had seen
them in.  Actually it wasn’t even a mirror at all ... merely glass.  Only
purity remained and I didn’t find it “out there”.  Lo and behold it was
inside of me all the time!  Actually, for me, the SYDA teaching that the
“inner guru and the Self are one” prooved true.  “Turn within” (i.e., away
from the physical guru) was exactly what I needed to do and what I did
eventually.  It just took quite awhile for me to close my sleep-deprived,
non-discriminating, red-rimmed, glassy eyes .....                         
     Well, all for this time.  More about the SYDA hologram in future posts.
Thanks to everyone on this board.  You are so thought provoking and generous.
It is wonderful to learn from everyone.  Even those gurus whose feet are made
of clay can teach such important lessons.  For example,  “Do not act in the
ways  that harm others, as we have.   Do not blindly follow all of our ways.
Instead, develop true discrimination and compassion and make these  the basis
of your actions.”   Maya Angeleou said something like, “When you didn’t know
better,  you didn’t act better.  When you know better, you will act better.”
Well, now those of us on this board know better.  Don’t we??  Thanks for
bearing with my “long speak.” You know what it is like when the flood gates
open.   
Subj:  Post-SYDA ashram dreams
Date:  96-04-30 23:41:21 EDT
From:  LifeAftrSY      

Does anybody else have night dreams of their SYDA past?

No doubt triggered by my recent involvement in this board (followed by
bedtime) I have been having a sharp increase of back-in-the-ashram dreams.
Invariably the emotional feeling is of being trapped. Sometimes they are
humorous (such as GM being carried on a palanquin by swamis), but usually I
am helplessly engaged in activities I never understand, or dare to question.
Last night I dreamt I was given a box of tiny tin soldiers and told to rinse
them in hydroflouric acid (??). Of course I went right to work, surrounded by
all sorts of busy energy in preparation for an impending GM visit, and I
dreaded her arrival and didn't know why I was doing all this work, but I
couldn't just drop it and say "That's it. I'm out of here". In the dream I
REALLY WANTED to leave but felt I COULDN'T leave. Not that there might be
something nice around the corner and maybe I should stay - I just felt like I
had some kind of slavish responsibility I had to fulfill and I just couldn't
leave.

In my last year living in a SYDA ashram I was seva supervisor, having
distinguished myself to the management as having been one of the most stable
and reliable sevites for many years (gold star after my name for that). This
meant I had to fill all the seva gaps I couldn't plug with other people.
Since I'd done all the sevas, I always knew what to do. Since I valued what I
understood as "maturity", I made myself the guy who came through for the
ashram when others didn't. This made me privy to management discussions of
the flakiness and emotional problems of sevites and ashramites (including
some I envied for being seemingly closer to GM), and further solidified my
cherished reputation for reliability and responsibility, an identity that
more than anything kept me on an even keel throughout my ashram years, and in
vocational matters then and after. But I was seeing through the SYDA charade
more, the clearly addictive behavior exhibited by people (management
included) who had to run to be with the Guru, my waning interest in spending
my time and energy there, my growing disgust for the programming, the whole
conceit of it all. For months, though, I felt I couldn't leave because who
would be pujari? Who would open the hall for meditation? Who would take out
the trash? Who would clean out the walk-in? It's those limbo times, rendered
even more senseless, that I seem to relive over and over in dreams.


Subj:  Breath of fresh air
Date:  96-05-01 01:26:13 EDT
From:  Violet1884      


Dear Everyone: 

It is just like a breath of fresh air to be involved with this wonderful,
supportive group of people.  Of course, I always knew that the people who
joined SYDA were on the whole good people.  That was one of the things that
attracted me to it in the first place.  Then it occurred to me tonight as I
read the days “posts” that it is probably true that those who have left are
‘extra good people” because we have all had the strength and courage to see
things as they really are and to say “no thanks”.  We have had the courage to
say “Well, I thought this was a great place, a great path and I was wrong.
So I am leaving to get on with my life with integrity.”  These are indeed the
kinds of people, with the kinds of self-worth and honesty that I want in my
life!  

Thanks for your comments, Dissent about vegetarianism.  I like your analysis
too Agni and agree with what you say.  I remember now, hearing that many SYDA
people who went to SYDA recommended naturopaths were directed to eat fish and
chicken.  At the time I thought, as it seems Agni thought, that these people
are sick NOT because of being vegetarian but because of lack of sleep, lack
of vacation, lack of resources, lack of self-esteem and lack of control  Fix
those things and they would probably be a lot healthier.  I know that my own
depression has completely resolved since I have left SYDA.  

I liked the following especially from your post  -  

“Which is not to say that having loved someone so much and discovering how
false they have been doesn't cut like a knife - for me, like a 13 year
marriage ending in a horrible, bitter, mind-blowing divorce.”

I was thinking just yesterday that this process is very much like going
through a very painful divorce.  The loss is very great  -  and the potential
for new life and growth is enormous.  As I have said in earlier posts, coming
on this board is another step in my long slow process of leaving and the
grieving is inevitable.  The grief comes in waves of sorrow alternating with
a sense of freedom and exhilaration.  Real life is available!!

Thanks for being here.  

Violet


Subj:  Re:All the new people & feel
Date:  96-05-01 02:21:06 EDT
From:  Violet1884      

Dear Larryom:

I just discovered your posts on this board after reading and responding to
your message on the "Ethics" board.  I want to thank you for your openness
and courage in telling the stories you told.  They re shocking.  I do not
really call “fooling” the Indian customs a “minor” story.  In fact don’t some
people call it smuggling?  I know that all your stories are true.  I have
heard them, or ones like them before.  I have even had a similar (although
not identical) experience of my own.  Hearing these stories does help to
break out of the denial that SYDA taught us.  

I find that denial STILL comes back for me.  Last night as I was drifting off
to sleep, the thought kept coming to me “What are you doing?!!!  -  This is
SYDA you are talking and writing about!!  This is your beloved Gurumayi you
are writing about!”  Then the thoughts of denial really came in  -  “Is all
this really true?  Did all this really happen?  Am I making this all up?”  I
then systematically went through all my experiences in my mind and the
experiences of others I know about to remind myself that I am not making it
up.  It is true and it is a good thing to be finding myself as I separate
from what was a very controlling experience.  

We have all been through a very similar experience even if some of the
specifics differ.  It is easy to see that by reading even only a few days on
this board.  We relate to each other’s experiences because we each have had
similar ones.  However, we are each responding to our experiences in our own
ways.  When we were in SYDA we were taught to all react to things in the same
ways.  That was the expectation.  Now that we are free of that control we may
need to learn all over again how to allow each other to react to things in
unique and individual ways.  I say “we” here but I am really telling myself
this.  This is something I want to keep in forefront in my mind so that I do
not slip back into that constant expectation of conformity that I embraced
for so many years.  

Thanks for being here.  

Violet.  

Subj:  Unity and Diversity
Date:  96-05-01 07:18:11 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Some folks have been offended by my light-hearted comments about eating meat.
For you this is a moral and ethical issue.  It is not that for me, but
I respect your feelings about it.  It's never been a religious or moral issue
for me, although I was strictly veg. for 11 years.  For those of you who see
it as a moral issue - I respect you.  For those who avoid meat out of fear of
divine retribution, I say that's a manipulative and controlling syda voice in
your head which should get the boot.  By all means, keep the vegetarianism,
if you wish, but keep it for YOU - not to please ZsaZsaMayi.  I'm personally
happier and healthier now with a diet that includes meat.  Nevertheless, I'm
sorry my comment offended you who are happier and healthier without it.
  Now, I'm here on this board for connection and support and understanding.
I need that after 13 years of being cut off from my own truth and values --
13 years of letting my life be usurped by an abusive swindler posing as a
deity.  I hope that our difference - you being vegetarian, me not - is not a
dividing line, separating me from you.  Those of us who leave syda, think
about what happened to us , and dare to talk about it with others, even in
this semi-clandestine way, are few and far between.  Although I do personally
know
people I talk about this with, watching people come out and speak on this
board is so meaningful and affirming for me.  I am seeking connection with
people, not division - syda divided me from the rest of the world for way too
long.
  I was bound up in a very rigid ideological system in those syda years -
that is what I reject now. That system was not Hinduism or Yoga, it was
Gurumayism - that's what I reject.   It so happens  I also reject, for
myself, some of the ideas and forms and practices of Hinduistic or Yogic
traditions.  I'm not from that tradition originally, and I prefer to go back
now more to my own culture and my own roots - and to try to find out what my
own, innate spirituality is without what I had superimposed on myself.
  I hear from some comments on the board that this translates to some of you
as being unspiritual, or throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  I never
said
anywhere that I reject spirituality.  Some people I've communicated with seem
to equate rejecting  syda yoga practices with rejecting spirituality.  Not
doing Yogic or Hinduistic things does not make someone unspiritual.  Mantra
and meditation and chanting and puja are not the only ways to be spiritual.
Isn't this obvious?
 Some of you have kept some practices from syda - so be it.  I respect that
those things are meaningful to you.  If I have spoken of these things too
lightly or satirically, I'm truly sorry you were offended.  Maybe I need to
make more clear  what exactly I am protesting against:  I protest against and
expose and criticize SYDA and its leaders and their hypocrisy, abuse,
deception, cruelty, fraudulence.  I abhor the sadistic abuse and exploitation
I have seen and experienced in syda.  The worst abuser is Gurumayi, and it
trickles down from her.  As a staffer, I passed it along to others.  I am
repulsed that I could have done that now, but I also know that Gurumayi
should be held responsible and accountable for how she seduces and gains
control over people - and what she does with that control.  And what that
does to people.  That is what I really care about saying, because I think - I
know - it helps other people to hear it.  I have never in any way trashed
faith and spirituality.  
  The details of how we live in the aftermath of leaving syda will vary.  I
hope diversity can be respected amongst us.  What is really important to me
is that we help each other stop feeling crazy or afraid and that we help each
other know that we are not alone and that others understand the pain we feel
from leaving, and the pain we felt from staying.  I wish all those who are
alone with this pain and confusion, and all those who are in the ashram and
know they should leave but can't, could join us. 

Subj:  Re:Brevity does not equal wite
Date:  96-05-01 11:30:26 EDT
From:  Shridevi        

enomni - 

you quoted Al's quote (which I'll quote) -

<<This process is not always conventional and sometimes it can be scary. >>

i wonder:  is it scarier to stand up for the vastness of life and LEAVE
siddha yoga, or to hang around with hundreds of people justifying any
behavior of the person who is supposed to protect you from life.

seems like if this guy Al was really into Reality Surfing - he would be
willing to truly let his concepts get shaken around.

<<God has nothing to do with debate. >>
<<Then is God limited?>>

Right on, E.  This reminds me of the people who used to show up and tell us
what was 'yogic.'  That bringing up "negative" things is not "yogic."  

It seems like there are two camps in Siddha Yoga.

#1 - Don't tell me about negative things.  It is not yogic.

#2 - If Baba sexually abuses young girls, it must be yogic.

???????

Just appreciating your deconstructions.

shree

Subj:  Re: Diversity
Date:  96-05-02 01:16:39 EDT
From:  Violet1884      

Hi everyone:

The thing that has occurred to me as I have followed this whole eruption over
the vegetarian issue is that it is possible that one of the after effects of
SYDA may be a difficulty in dealing with diversity.  Is it possible that
somehow we really assimilated the idea that everyone has to think the same
thoughts and carry the same ideas.  I think this is something I will look at
very carefully in myself.  I think my SYDA years may have made me a little
uncomfortable with contrary opinions.  You know, everything is fine so long
as we are all swaying in unison to the chant and adoring the form on the
chair.  Once someone thinks a different or independent thought things become
a little sticky!!  This is one of the things that we can practice on this
board.  Learning to enjoy diversity without seeing it as abrasive.  

The first place to start could be in accepting each others expression of
spirituality.  Now that we are independent thinkers, our various expressions
of faith will all differ.  That is great.  We can learn from each other and
enjoy each other without feeling like we all have to be the same.  

I do have to say one last thing about myself and vegetarianism however.  I
was NEVER a vegetarian for Gurumayi!  She had nothing to do with it.  It is a
moral issue for me, you are right there, Dissent.  However, it is not a
religious issue for me.  I see it as a matter of my response to abuse.  Just
as leaving SYDA was my response to abuse, so my vegetarianism is also my
response to abuse.  I do feel that abuse is abuse is abuse and I am against
it where ever I find it.  

Thanks for being here.

Violet
Subj:  Re:blind leading the blind
Date:  96-05-02 19:53:27 EDT
From:  MDSNMAN         

Bravo JJanet.  I couldn't agree with you more.  Anything that smacks of
siddha-speak (thought-control detrius), including the use of "spiritual"
names (read confused identity) makes me want to gag.  Just skip those posts.
I do.  Most are written by folks who have little knowledge of SYDA anyway
(Shridevi excepted), and for whatever reason, have decided to hang out here.
Don't get me wrong, everyone is welcome.  It's just that the value I derive
from these pages comes communicating with people who have had the same
experiences I have, who share my anger and outrage; from getting some
perspective on the years of life lost in service to a sick, perverted
charlatan and her pathetic organization; from sharing in the joy of
rediscovering life and self, and from hoping, as we continue to meet here,
that we'll all contribute to the eventual destruction of this pernicious
cult.  So don't give up.  There's good stuff here.   

Subj:  On leaving bad gurus
Date:  96-05-02 13:30:32 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear AOL readers,

You are all probably familiar with the current attempts of the Kripalu
organization to address the sexual misconduct of Desai and put the
organization back on an ethical, if guru-less, footing (if you are not, see
the ex-cult Internet for a copy of recent correspondence from that
organization). 

What seems conspicuously missing from their deliberations is a discussion of
this question:

"How did we allow our sense of well-being to hinge on whether some other
person had sex or not?  Because some person, say "Mr. X,"  was a sexual
abuser, and because we learned about it, we now find ourselves emotionally
and spiritually devastated, we find our view of the world toppled.  How on
earth did we allow ourselves to get so off-balance? How did we allow
ourselves to lose all our inner reserve, and become vulnerable in this way?" 

Take SYDA, for example.  There is someone on the internet who is frantically
insisting that Gurumayi did not have sex with George Afif, and is doing
cartwheels to discredit testimony to the contrary.  Even giving him the
benefit of the doubt, it seems clear that his sense of identity depends on
Gurumayi being a virgin.  Isn't that a pathetic position for a human being to
get into?  It raises the question, "how do educated, adult people get
themselves into a position where their sense of well being hinges upon
whether or not Gurumayi is a virgin?"  

As we all know, cults implant not just one concept, but a web of concepts.
People sometimes think they have left a cult just because they give up one or
two big concepts.  Wrong, sadly wrong.  It would seem that cult members'
dependency on weird concepts often survives, even after they detach from the
cult's figurehead.  I applaud Kripalu's impulse to restore an ethical basis
to that organization.  But, perhaps, their band-aid approach to repairing
Kripalu denies the deeper problems of doctrines, rituals, beliefs, and
lifestyle.  

Some say that recovery often requires time, requires distance from habituated
patterns of spiritual thought, requires a new environment--if ex-cultists are
to ever free themselves from  undesirable, deeply rooted cult traits.  After
enjoying this kind of distance for a while, a person gains perspective, and
can better go back and reevaluate their cult experiences and their spiritual
identities.  

Perhaps many don't give themselves enough time away from cultishness.  If
this is so, the result might be that people leave a cult--without really
leaving it.  As the cliche goes, those who fail to learn from history are
destined to repeat it.  

Not talking about Kripalu now, but just in general--we can leave a cult
thinking "I'm going to run from Guru X to Guru Y, because I hear Guru Y is a
virgin!  There--I'm cured of Guru X!  (One can substitute for the word
"virgin" any "pet idea" that cults use to denote spirituality.)   I know
quite a few people who have done something like this.  Given that these
people didn't learn from their first cult experience, I fear they are not
cured as they claim:  I fear they are acting progressively more deranged.
One thinks of gamblers who continue to gamble even after losing a fortune,
since they can't face up to the fact of their initial losses.  

A happy Spring, to all you folks on "Losing my Religion."

Subj:  *Welcome 3*
Date:  96-05-03 00:54:37 EDT
From:  BabaRumRai      

Your own Baba Rum Raisin here.

It is very gratifying to see so many new faces. Many of you are ready for a
true "Experience." The people of the west are so gullib.....er..receptive. I
will soon visit in your kinder and gentler country as I spread my peace
around the world. We will be establishing an Ashram in Las Vegas so that
people will no longer have to throw their money away on gambling. Many will
benefit from my darshan. No longer will people commit the sin of gambling. My
darshan basket is a sure thing. Put money in and Laksmi will visit your
birthday cake. This has all been predicted in the scriptures. My own Bhagavan
Tree Swami Sagalu has made it possible. As he once said before his maha
samadhi, SCREECH SCREECH WIRRRR FZZZZZZZZZ FZZZZZZZZZ.................
PLEASE PARDON THE BROADCAST INTERRUPTION we seem to have lost the satellite
hookup. Remember the Sri Baba Rum Raisin tenets. Give All to Receive All. See
God in My Pocket. Fur is Murder........................To Clean. 

Subj:  Ego-bashing
Date:  96-05-03 01:03:55 EDT
From:  LifeAftrSY      

>...denial and service to their own egos that characterizes SYDA devotees.
For me, part of this is >learning about ego and the self (lower self) and the
Self (greater Self, i.e., inner power that is >in everything)"

Ego-bashing and lower-self-bashing is a favorite non-contact sport in SYDA.
It serves the same ends as all the other abuses mentioned: it makes human
beings into fodder for spiritual power brokers. Let's not do it here, please?
I learned a thing or two about that most blameable of psychic instruments
when I left SYDA: the reason why we overidentify with the ego in the first
place is that we've become numb/rejecting of our feeling self. It's a bit
like a child being asked to do man's work; ego-bashing is analogous to
berating the child for being a child instead of being the man who
disappeared. I played that nasty game with everyone else in SYDA, and now
that I know better, I feel disgusted and ashamed. Ever watch parents shriek
at their three-year-olds for "not listening" and "not behaving"? Imagine on
top of that telling the child that it is intrinsically bad, wrong, and
responsible for all suffering. This is what statements like the above feel
like to me now.

On the other hand, I eat fish and chicken and squash bugs.

Subj:  Ivory Tower
Date:  96-05-03 01:05:14 EDT
From:  LifeAftrSY      

Narada, you say:

>I am glad you had the following insight.  And I'm also glad you brought it
up.  It was
>when I said almost the exact same thing that made me so unpopular here. 

I don't think so, Narada. I'm with the others on this: it's not so much what
you say but HOW you say it that ticks off us readers. It's the
holier-than-thou thing, y'know?

>That such things can now be said without the SYDA critics going ballistic is
proof of the >healing benefits of this board." 

"Proof"? Do you wish to be exempted from the standards of "proof" to which
you subject others, Narada? Here's the pitfall of ivory-tower living:
mistaking opinion for truth, especially in regards to other people. I've long
been an ivory-tower type myself, but now that I've had some experience with
real human relationship, married and all that, I've found I'm often wrong, or
at least greatly limited, in my opinions of other people. I avoid that
realization by creating a defensive, accusatory atmosphere around myself, so
when people react defensively I can say "AHA!!! See how superior I am!" Not
much healing there.

I submit that the nobody went "ballistic" over my suggestion of an
overarching SYDA-style explanation for GM's behavior because I was being
facetious, humorous, not deadly-serious. Did you miss that?

>(I now have over six hundred pages of stuff from these boards in my word
processor.  It's fun >using word and phrase search to see the critics slowly
acknowledging ugly yet liberating >truths.)"

Who are you talking to, Narada? You sound like someone who seriously believes
that the world is agonizing over the inevitability of coming around to your
opinion. Such an alienated, unfriendly comment. Is that how you feel?

Subj:  Debate Hate
Date:  96-05-03 01:06:00 EDT
From:  LifeAftrSY      

Violet, something you mentioned struck me:

>I think my SYDA years may have made me a little uncomfortable with contrary
opinions.

I think I know what you mean. Contrary opinions are often associated with
anger, an emotion which I loathed exploring until very recently. In a Seva
Course in 1991 I first noticed how intimidated and clueless most devotees
(such as myself) were around anger - we often denied our anger because we
thought it was unspiritual, or just wrong. I had an angry epiphany then when
a question was going around the room along the lines of "what is a true
disciple"? Namdev/George/Gurumayi was ridiculing everyone for their bookish,
sheepish answers, and I had an angry thought "F***, Namdev, I don't even know
how to be a man, how am I supposed to know about being a disciple"? As I
thought about it, I realized two things: 1) I found the crux of my dilemma,
and 2) SYDA was no place to learn about manhood. I left SY about a year later
(it still took me awhile).

To sum up: I see adult men or women as willing to feel the controversial
feelings that come with controversy (such as questioning authority), and
learn from them, be human in them. SYDA is comprised mostly of emotional
children in adult bodies, stunted by dependency on approval from the "magic
helper", being beat up for it, and finding refuge in the institutional
fantasy that all this will result some day in attaining the same status (oh,
I mean "state" ;)) as their guru. So naturally, contrary opinions are
anathema to a society of adolescents in such painfully sad hubristic denial.

Subj:  Goldenseva, Please Read!
Date:  96-05-03 22:37:55 EDT
From:  Hrdaya2914      

Yes, there has been some tough stuff going on in these folders, some of it
disrespectful. But dialog uncensored for content is indeed necessary.  I
disagree with your assessment of what people come here for.  They come for a
variety of reasons, ranging from fellowship in their particular belief to
solace in their disillusionment.  AOL should NOT take that basic right and
privilege of free speech away.  If there is discomfort with anyone's opinion,
so be it. That's life.  That's why we turn to religion, to explain  what we
do not understand.  Thank you for the good job you've been doing and please
consider the implications of what you're about to do.  

Subj:  Re:Debate Hate
Date:  96-05-04 10:45:55 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      


LifeAftr said in the "Debate Hate" post yesterday:

<<  Namdev/George/Gurumayi was ridiculing everyone for 
      their bookish, sheepish answers, and I had an angry 
      thought "Sheesh, Namdev, I don't even know how to be 
      a man, how am I supposed to know about being a disciple"? >>

<<  SYDA is comprised mostly of emotional children in 
      adult bodies, stunted by dependency on approval from 
      the "magic helper", being beat up for it, and finding refuge 
      in the institutional fantasy that all this will result some day in 
      attaining the same status (oh, I mean "state" ;)) as their guru. >>

Thanks for bringing up these topics.  You are right:  It is hard to become a
disciple when we are still groping towards manhood.  In fact, it is probably
naive, or foolhardy, or dangerous, or impossible, or all of the above.  

Look at the exemplar, Swami Muktananda, who left home at age 15 and bypassed
a big chunk of the normal emotional and social development which we all need.
It's not too surprising that a man who missed out on a major portion of
"normal growing up" should go on to sexually abuse teenage girls.

There is a lot to think about here.  As Scott Peck said in THE ROAD LESS
TRAVELED, "The road to sainthood passes through adulthood."  This is a great
statement.  When we discovered pop hinduism in the form of syda, many of us
thought we had found the shortcut, the bypass on life's long journey.  It
might have been a bypass, but it was no shortcut.  

We live in a confusing world.  It isn't easy to grow up in this world, to
become socially and emotionally mature, to be psychologically healthy, to
live righteously, to find happiness and success.  We live in a culture which
has lost its mentoring institutions for young men and women.  Who is there to
guide us in the difficult process of growing up?  

The institutions which used to serve this purpose in our society -- family,
church, school, university, etc. -- have crumbled largely into disarray and
scandal.  They no longer provide the moral and emotional guidance which they
once did, a kind of guidance which most of us need to grow up into good,
strong, autonomous men and women.  So who's left to serve as role models when
we have lost our mentors?  Pop stars?  The glamorous multimillionaires in
entertainment, in the stadiums, and in the corporations?  

It's no wonder that many of us felt there was something missing.  It's no
wonder we went searching for something to fill the hole.  And it's no wonder
that cults have flourished in this culture.  We became seekers for very good
reasons, and we found many good things in syda -- spirituality, discipline,
service, and community.  But what our souls were crying out for was help in
growing up, not the glories of an enlightenment we couldn't even understand.
Somewhere along the line though, we lost sight of our horizons and we put
growing up on hold in the name of higher attainment.  And this is what opened
us to the confusion, the fantasy life, and the abuse of syda.  


Subj:  So said ArtSM 1
Date:  96-05-04 17:30:48 EDT
From:  BVena           

Glad to see ya,  ART. Join in our reindeer games. No offence personally but
since I know most of the art seva people in SY for 13 years,(if I told you
who I was you'd foop) I can say that you are  (most probably) not utilized as
part of the grunt work force. It is easy to say that there is no such thing
from the your point of view. We as a group, never had to chop vegetables at 3
AM. Or move mounds of earth. Or do vegetable garden seva all day in June
through August.. 
  Not that there is anything wrong with it but the art office is THE most
pleasant seva environment. No exposure to the vicious revolving management
staff. Kind non psychopathic arty people to hang with. This also means that
you could remain one of the nice people around the ashram, of which there are
many. If you guys were all like a certain first minister to GM, I would not
give a flip what happened to any of you. The fact is SY is made up of people
like you and me who tow the party line for what ever reason. Anti SYDA is
made up of people like you and me who don't!  
 By the way I agree with you. SY doesn't necessarily stifle creativity. It
doesn't help it either. The SY creativity course I took years ago in
Manhattan went like this: The swami (a lawyer) told us that the guru, then
Baba still if memory serves me, would open inner doors. All for $150. Then
some pictures of chakras were shown. But that's not were you were headed with
your argument, was it.....see next

Subj:  So Said ArtSM
Date:  96-05-04 17:33:07 EDT
From:  BVena           

Mull This. We've all been in SY, that's why we're in this folder now. That's
why it doesn't ring true when you say this or that can't have happened
because you just know!. TOO many people not isolated away from the main
building report TOO much for it ALL to be lies. People you know.....! 
 Your personal attack on Larry Om shows that you've had to glean something to
strike out at. It is typical duplicitous thinking when you need to devalue an
individual whose' position you can't credibly undermine. Didn't you read his
previous 1000 posts where he held your position (though not as pedantically
to be sure)? He has been very, very upset by what has come to light. As have
I. Now we are of course just some fallen yogis and NOTHING we say could ever
have ANY value to you as it is ALL LIES now and forever. I remember posting
"you go girl" when you eviscerated an anti SYDA poster months back. I have
since changed camps! Or that is to say I have left the SY camp. Waaaaay
tooooo much evidence. 
 Again..no offence personally really..I know that last thing you want is to
be "saved" from SY by ex devotees. I didn't believe what little I had heard
either.....for years! Then more came out.... and kept coming, from
reasonable, truthful, devotees just like you. I put 2 and 2 together..more
like 5,000 and 5,000, you do the math. If I could be kept in the dark for so
many years about what goes on, so can you. What it boils down to is, I don't
need a guru for whom I have to make excuses. Ethical behavior is a
prerequisite for my choice in a spiritual teacher. At least now anyway<G>."I
didn't know about it" doesn't mean it didn't happen. It means I didn't know
about it.    
 Oh and by the way..Gurumayi does too tell people to worship her and you know
it. I was there when GM busted a swami for saying that she often prayed to
the Virgin Mary of Guadalupe. GM
 Said she should pray to HER! Not someone else!".  She went on and on. I
couldn't believe my ears. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your
position, this was said in front of a large group of people. Not just the
inner circle, as it was clearly meant to be a choice bust. Could the
infallible guru have "misspoken"? Doubtsies.

Subj:  The Sex Scriptures of SYDA
Date:  96-05-04 19:20:45 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear AOL readers,

Someone online stated that sex is not a big subject in SYDA.  This is untrue.
First, let's begin with Siddha yoga scripture, which contains obsessive
discussions of sex.  Take this excerpt, for example.

<<<I (Swami Muktananda) was amazed at the uncontrollable strength in my sex
organ, which was, after all, only a lump of flesh.  It became intensely
agitated.  Alas, alas.  This was far worse than the experience of the end of
the world that I had had on the first day.  Now everything was directed
outward, toward sex, sex, sex.  I could think of nothing but sex!  My whole
body boiled with lust, and I cannot describe the agony of my sexual organ.>>>
(from the chapter titled "Sexual Excitement.")  

This excerpt was taken from a chapter titled "SEXUAL EXCITEMENT" in Swami
Muktananda's autobiography.  This book is regarded as a main scripture of
Siddha Yoga.  <<<Sex, sex, sex.>>> There it is, Baba's revision of the three
"om tat sats," of traditional Hinduism.  A revision he allegedly put into
practice with the help of a sex table and young girls he selected from the
children of his sheep-like disciples, according to Rodarmor's article.   

Moving along, who can deny (without lying) that the sexual element in SYDA
isn't pervasive. Sex talk was thrust upon me even when I wasn't looking for
it.  For example, not that long ago, ZsaZsa publicly talked about the
exchange of sexual partners that was occurring, which she referred to as
"swapping."  I didn't want to hear about it, nor was I looking to learn about
this.  But there it was--broadcast from top down.  And what about "SEXUAL
EXCITEMENT"?  I didn't name the chapter, Muktananda did!  

And what about the ZsaZsa asking that lesbians change their ways and become
Barbie dolls, and gay men take on wives?  The leaders are totally hung up on
sex, and on manipulating the sexual identity and behavior of others.   This
sex-obsession is transferred to the disciples. People, it's high time people
openly talked about the kind of mind-damaging manipulation that is going on
behind SYDA's closed doors.

My goodness, we were all there--we all know that sex and sexual "energy" is
an absolute obsession with many SYDA folk, whether they are abstaining or
indulging, or being otherwise mentally ill about sexual matters.  You folks
out there can corroborate my statement easily with more of your own.  Set the
record straight on this one!   

What makes SYDA disciples' obsession with sex so ironic is, the disciples
think that if they can cover up the allegations of sexual abuse, SYDA will be
"pure" again.  The problem will not be so easily solved: even if we put the
allegations of sexual abuse aside, there remain glaring problems in SYDA to
discuss--the brainwashing, for example.  Inducing disturbed sexual thinking
and behavior is just one component of SYDA brainwashing, one component among
many.  

Subj:  Re: Sput6 on ArtSMarie
Date:  96-05-05 08:40:16 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      


Dear Sput6,  
I loved your post about "See God in each other" and ArtSMarie.  I think there
is a simple explanation for Art's unwillingness to "see God" in the great
efforts of all of us in this folder.  In order to maintain the good feeling
which syda devotees have, it is necessary to block out all information and
thoughts which might disturb that sense of happiness and lightness.  To
consider openly the ideas which are discussed in this folder would be very
threatening to a syda devotee.  Hence, the close mindedness and outright
dismissal exemplified by ArtSMarie's 18 posts yesterday -- in Dissent's
words, "the stone wall of denial".

The syda thought system does not provide a single rigid perspective with
which to view the world or guide the thinking of devotees.  Rather, the
thought system is fluid and shifting, according to circumstances.  It is a
shell game. 

Which shell is the pea under now?  

Shell #1:   Trust your experience of pleasant tranquillity induced by the
practices, and block out any thoughts or information that might disturb it.

Shell # 2:   Listen to your inner voice and let it guide you.

Shell # 3:   Attune yourself to the will of the guru and do her bidding.

And remember, don't you try to move the shells -- leave that to the guru and
her proxies.

In the case of ArtSMarie's 18 posts yesterday, the pea is under shell #1.  I
think it is pointless to try to debate such posts, or even respond to them.
The best thing is probably just to ignore them and continue doing what we're
doing here.  My suggestion:  Let's move to our discussions to the new
"Ex-SYDA Fellowship" folder where we can continue them without distraction.

Keep up your great posting.  Look forward to seeing you in the new "Ex-SYDA
Fellowship" folder.

Fibs
============================
AOL DISCLAIMER:     This post is not DEBATE, it is insight into the syda
thought system which we are all still trying to understand and extricate
ourselves from.  I have re-posted this post in the new "Ex-SYDA Fellowship"
folder where it belongs.  : )
============================

Subj:  NEW FOLDER ANNOUNCEMENT
Date:  96-05-05 09:13:38 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      


================================
NEW  FOLDER  ANNOUNCEMENT:

I have opened a new folder called "Ex-SYDA Fellowship".  Please check it out
for details.

================================

Dear SYDA Supporters,

Please check out the first two posts in the new "Ex-SYDA Fellowship" which
explain in detail the reason for the new folder.  I believe it will make this
Hinduism section of AOL a more congenial place for all of us who have been
involved in SYDA activities.

The purpose of the new folder is to provide a home for people who have left
SYDA, and who still want each others' fellowship for support in working
through various issues we all face after leaving SYDA.  It will also organize
the SYDA related folders in a way which promotes tolerance and
non-interference between SYDA supporters and Ex-SYDA people.  

So.....  How about let's try putting all our SYDA posts in 3 folders:  A
Supporters folder, a Debate folder, and an Ex-SYDA Fellowship folder.  That
will make things simpler and easier to follow.  I think it will also be more
to the liking of AOL.  

I think we all deserve an online forum where we can communicate with others
who share our interests.  The Supporters folder and the Ex-SYDA Fellowship
folder provide just that.  The Ethics Debate folder is probably a useful
addition to these two SYDA folders, but it is viewed with some discomfort by
AOL. 

I hope this new folder will help us coexist in cyberspace more respectfully. 

Sincerely,  

Fibonacci8 

Subj:  Re: Fibs on Sput6/ArtSMarie
Date:  96-05-05 16:07:33 EDT
From:  Hrdaya2914      

My post to Marie was not intended as an "ex-SYDA" retort because I am not an
ex-anything.  I'm simply someone who doesn't like to see anyone unfairly
trashed, no matter what side of the fence they're on  (I sort of straddle it
right now) -- particularly if they show absolutely no understanding about the
truths they purport to uphold.

The teaching "see God in each other" is a great and beautiful -- and NOT
exclusive to Siddha Yoga.  That is the milieu where I encountered it but it's
hardly unique, as I later learned.  Someone who adhered to this teaching
would not say things like "do you have any friends" (to Enomni) or "lucky you
were in Gurumayi's shakti" to someone who feels that were hurt by that
environment.  She said something about having compassion for these people but
I don't see it.
For the record, I'm not comfortable with the way some of the exes express
themselves either but they are not making their points in the name of
So-and-So's Love.  

Again, I uphold everyone's right to their opinion and believe that "the
unexamined (spiritual) life is not worth living," but whateverroute I choose
to take in the future I hate to have my ideals sullied by the dismissive,
ill-considered rantings of those with blind faith (as well as those with no
faith).  Is there any room for middle-of-the-roaders like myself in these
forums or should I shut up???

By the way, Fibs, I agree with most of what you said but...

Shell#1:  There's nothing wrong with doing practices if it induces a
"pleasant, tranquil state" but the real trick is holding on to tranquility (I
haven't mastered this myself and may never).  If one is really, truly
tranquil, disturbing thoughts and information won't change your state.  I
think that anyone who needs to block something out to achieve peace has only
had a superficial experience of peace.  I mean, God gave us brains, we think
with them, we (hopefully) act wisely and with equanimity when presented with
certain info. -- it doesn't discount our inherent divinity.   In other words,
there's nothing wrong with thinking!  (That's where I break with yogaclone
ideology.  I think that if I think I'm not thinking it's just another
thought.)

Shell#2:  I think one *should* listen to that inner voice which is the
conscience (I had one of those before I knew what an "inner Guru" was) --
it's my experience that this voice rings true no matter what you think you're
"supposed to" feel. It's the voice of doubt and discomfort  as well as
ecstatic revelation.  Both are valid.

So these shells (4 and 5, actually) are also part of the "game" as far as I'm
concerned.  And we do move our own shells.  If we don't, that's a choice
individuals make to give up their personalities and personal power.  

Sorry to babble on so. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

Subj:  Response to Larryom
Date:  96-05-05 10:48:28 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      

Dear Larryom,

Thanks for giving thought to the new folder.  I think that given the new
guidelines from Sermoner 1 and GoldenSeva, organizing the SYDA folders into a
Supporters folder, a Debate folder, and an Ex-Syda Fellowship folder is our
best response.

Some comments on your posts in this folder.  You said:

<<  Dissent, I really like your warmer tone lately. You 
      make me feel like this board has really been positive 
      in the sense that anger can be "gotten over" if let out 
      ane expressed and that nod to those "still struggling 
      with...doubts" was especially nice. Thanks.  >>

I'm not sure Dissent has "gotten over" his anger, and I'm not sure it would
be appropriate for him to have.  I think the point is not to let existing
anger from getting in the way of the fellowship we all need here.

<<  I am still not Totally ruling out the admittedly slim 
      possibility that Gurumayi could somehow "clear her 
      name" but if she tries to do so by more campaigns 
      of denial and cover-ups, then forget it!  >>

Slim???  How about thinner than an anorexic staff member?!?!  

<<  I want to add, though, that I though the "Losing my 
      Religion" folder was for non-debate topics and I did 
      try to post there unless I was directly responding to 
      something in one of the other folders--though I admit 
      I posted anything in responses in terms of content.  
      Anyway, what about the "Losing..." folder?  >>

As I've stated, I think the "Losing My Religion" folder would be superfluous
if we put our SYDA posts in the three folders, "Supporters", "Debate", and
"Ex-SYDA Fellowship".  Other people might not feel that way though, and
people can still post in the "Losing My Religion" folder.  My aim here is
twofold:  (1) To organize the SYDA related folders in a way which is simpler
and easier to follow, and (2) to make them less threatening to AOL.  We can
try it and see how it goes.   

<<  Once you must be either a "supporter" or and "EX-syda" 
      person, you are excluding those still in the doubting process 
      who are not ready to full identify with one side or the other 
      (certainly when I entered these boards I would not have 
      wanted to identify myself as either "supporter" or "ex."  BUT  
      the "losing" header seems to allow for a process to be ongoing--
      for doubts to still be entertained--with respect to both sides.  >>

There may be some people who have not left SY who want to read the posts in
this new folder.  Nothing stops them from lurking or even posting as long as
they don't flame or debate.  If they want to do that (without flaming), the
Ethics Debate folder will remain.  I think as long as our discussions in this
folder are honest, sincere, and non-flaming, they will be hard to resist for
anyone with a SYDA background and a partially open mind.  I'm particularly
interested in hearing any feedback the recent delurkers might have on this
issue.  
Fibonacci

Subj:  Re: Debate Hate
Date:  96-05-05 12:43:21 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      


This is a re-post from the Ethics Debate folder.  (Sorry for so many posts
here in the past 2 days.  I'm just trying to prime the pump in the new
folder.  -- Fibs.)

==========================================

LifeAftr said in the "Debate Hate" post yesterday:

<<  Namdev/George/Gurumayi was ridiculing everyone for 
      their bookish, sheepish answers, and I had an angry 
      thought "Sheesh, Namdev, I don't even know how to be 
      a man, how am I supposed to know about being a disciple"? >>

<<  SYDA is comprised mostly of emotional children in 
      adult bodies, stunted by dependency on approval from 
      the "magic helper", being beat up for it, and finding refuge 
      in the institutional fantasy that all this will result some day in 
      attaining the same status (oh, I mean "state" ;)) as their guru. >>

Thanks for bringing up these topics.  You are right:  It is hard to become a
disciple when we are still groping towards manhood.  In fact, it is probably
naive, or foolhardy, or dangerous, or impossible, or all of the above.  

Look at the exemplar, Swami Muktananda, who left home at age 15 and bypassed
a big chunk of the normal emotional and social development which we all need.
It's not too surprising that a man who missed out on a major portion of
"normal growing up" should go on to sexually abuse teenage girls.

There is a lot to think about here.  As Scott Peck said in THE ROAD LESS
TRAVELED, "The road to sainthood passes through adulthood."  This is a great
statement.  When we discovered pop hinduism in the form of syda, many of us
thought we had found the shortcut, the bypass on life's long journey.  It
might have been a bypass, but it was no shortcut.  

We live in a confusing world.  It isn't easy to grow up in this world, to
become socially and emotionally mature, to be psychologically healthy, to
live righteously, to find happiness and success.  We live in a culture which
has lost its mentoring institutions for young men and women.  Who is there to
guide us in the difficult process of growing up?  

The institutions which used to serve this purpose in our society -- family,
church, school, university, etc. -- have crumbled largely into disarray and
scandal.  They no longer provide the moral and emotional guidance which they
once did, a kind of guidance which most of us need to grow up into good,
strong, autonomous men and women.  So who's left to serve as role models when
we have lost our mentors?  Pop stars?  The glamorous multimillionaires in
entertainment, in the stadiums, and in the corporations?  

It's no wonder that many of us felt there was something missing.  It's no
wonder we went searching for something to fill the hole.  And it's no wonder
that cults have flourished in this culture.  We became seekers for very good
reasons, and we found many good things in syda -- spirituality, discipline,
service, and community.  But what our souls were crying out for was help in
growing up, not the glories of an enlightenment we couldn't even understand.
Somewhere along the line though, we lost sight of our horizons and we put
growing up on hold in the name of higher attainment.  And this is what opened
us to the confusion, the fantasy life, and the abuse of syda.  

Subj:  Is it really "bashing"?
Date:  96-05-05 19:06:09 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear AOL readers,

Some trivialize the substance of posts by calling them "bashing."  As for me,
I never--never--intend to "bash," but choose word to fit content.   If you
think I am bashing, fine--I accept that as your interpretation.  But don't
construe your interpretation as equivalent to my motivation.  I do not intend
to bash:  I am trying to get my point across using the appropriate language.


For example, I have said that I feel ZsaZsa (not Gabor) is a "con artist."
The term "con artist" is the right term, and there is nothing reckless about
my choice of it. Using the right word is not bashing.  The language matches
the content--which I stand behind 100%. 

To her victims, the statement "ZsaZsa is a sadguru" is horribly painful to
read, and insane-sounding.  But I wouldn't call it bashing.  What if I said
to one of Aum Shinrikyo's victims "Shoko Asahara is a maker of fine subway
aerosols and perfumes"?  That has about as much merit in my mind as the
phrase "ZsaZsa is a sadguru."   

I defend the right of SYDA supporters to post party line statements, and to
critique my posts.  I ask only for the same consideration--I ask only for
symmetry. (By the way, thanks Fibonacci8 for correcting the asymmetry online.
Until Fibonacci8 took action, there was a "supporter" folder, but no "ex-SYDA
fellowship" folder.)  

Let everyone read everything.  Let AOL readers sort out the content for
themselves.  (Hey, when it was pretty much 100% zombies around here, there
used to be a "TOS HOWIE SM" folder, in which discussion about how to have me
sanctioned and silenced took place.  That was fine with me; in my view, it
helped fill out the picture of SYDA culture nicely.)

Folks, in my posts, I mean what I say.  If it seems extreme, it is because
the situation is extreme.  Allegations of coverups, child molestation,
sadism, mind control, batterings, intimidiation of whistle blowers, guns,
nervous breakdowns, financial improprieties, mistreating your own mother and
brother--there is no nice way to talk about these issues.  If you think I
bash, you misread.  I am sincerely trying to tell it like it is.  

The word bashing connotes people being purposelessly argumentative.  But what
if someone had tried to blow the whistle before the Jim Jones or Solar Temple
or Rajneesh debacles?  I wouldn't call that bashing--would you? 
  




Subj:  Replies
Date:  96-05-06 00:43:38 EDT
From:  LifeAftrSY      

"When we discovered pop hinduism in the form of syda, many of us thought we
had found the shortcut, the bypass on life's long journey.  It might have
been a bypass, but it was no shortcut."

This is exactly how I feel about the SYDA experience.

"Life aftr Sy:  if you ever thought you had to give up your will, you really
missed the boat, because a person who practices meditation learns to be very
one pointed and directed...it takes lots of "will" to stay in tune with our
real work and purposes, and to keep the daily living "productive, creative,
individual, and so forth"..I can only say that you must have had a profound
tradition to lay groundwork for beating yourself up....lucky you were in
Gurumayi's shakti, you probably would have done yourself in, otherwise...with
self recrimination"

The problem with this online medium is that we have no experience of
eachother as whole people. It seems perfectly reasonable for any of us to
read something posted and tell the poster how they are wrong and what they
should do now. How can I even be offended? Listen to these buzzwords: "learns
to be very one pointed and directed... stay in tune with our real work and
purposes"... what presumption in these remarks! Are these 18 dismissive posts
supposed to serve as examples? Why bother to perfume us with your
superiority?

"If you saw yourself as a "gofer", that indicates a lot...you abdicated
yourself, It was not gurumayi...Her comment, do sports, tells me how
perceptive she is, once again...She meant "have fun", move, play, lighten up,
compete.....I can only imagine some of the reasons you chose to abuse
yourself in the Ashram setting..."

It wouldn't have taken much for any perceptive human being to see that I was
not having much fun. There's nothing enlightening in telling people to
"lighten up". That is not a helpful remark.  It is a dismissive prescription
borne of unwillingness to be in relationship. From you, fine, but from
someone who is supposed to be my main relationship? This is no different from
how my mother treated me (ah, you are RIGHT that this goes beyond SYDA). The
balloon I think we want to pop here is the idea that something more helpful
should be expected of a so-called Siddha.

in a nutshell, my experience there is totally opposite..filled with
confidence, I party, I play at art seva, I dine on wonderful meals, visit
with wonderful people from around the world, I contemplate the lake, nature,
I sleep in, if I need to,- I take friends or family and leave for a swim or a
movie...whatever...it is what you make of it....and I am sorry that you
didn't get "joy".  I bet you were even "judging" people who weren't doing it
"right"...  Can you laugh at someone who cuts in front of you in
traffic.?.can you enjoy a slow, slow line at the market.?..can you love and
joke with an  ugly person?....I guess I would want to know "who " you really
are, before I can except your "BLAME" against Siddha...even now you need to
justify why...it's the same behavior that was a problem in the ashram, it's
going to give you a problem outside the ashram...I feel compassion for you
and don't want to hurt you, but you don't have the same regard for we folks
who "just know how to have fun"...."

Looks like you are on the fast track to Siddha Loka, Art! So nice of you to
spend some of your precious time characterizing me before floating off. The
"compassion" remark is such a typical spiritual put-down. I guess the
nastiness that I have and you don't means there's something wrong with me
(and correspondingly right with you). Ten years and I didn't do it right.
Maybe the Satellite Intensive will fill my heart with love, so I can play
with people like ArtSMarie. Maybe another ten, or twenty years in SYDA. For
years I tried to change myself in response to "advice" and "insight" like
this. Are you pleased, ArtSMarie, to learn that I have a lot more fun now?

Subj:  The nays have it....
Date:  96-05-06 09:00:29 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      


Re:  The new folder (name) "Ex-SYDA Fellowship"

The "nays" seem to have it over the "yeas", at least for now.  Thanks for
your comments on the new folder, Shridevi and Larryom.  For me, the problem
with the name "Losing My Religion" is that someone might lurk or post for a
long time without realizing that the "Losing My Religion" folder contains
discussions re: SYDA.  I am thinking of my own experience:  I lurked and
posted quite a bit before I even opened the Losing My Religion folder and
discovered what was in it. 

Suggestion:  We could rename that folder "SYDA -- Losing My Religion".  The
folder description could say something like "For people who have left or are
questioning SYDA:  Insights, discussion, and support -- not for pro-syda
polemics, flaming, or debate."

I think something like that would be fine.  What's important is to separate
the Supporters from the people who have been conversing in the Ethics Debate
folder.  This will promote the conversations of both groups and reduce
flaming and interference in those conversations.  The Ethics Debate folder
will remain for debate, so people with conflicting positions can still engage
each other. 

The reason I named the new folder "Ex-SYDA Fellowship" was to make it
explicit that this folder was for us to continue the great conversations we
have been having and to remove the label "debate", which AOL views
uncomfortably.  Whatever we call the folders, if we can accomplish that,
great.  Feedback please.......

FibonacciSubj:  Folder configuration/AOL
Date:  96-05-06 11:02:09 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear AOL folks,

If people want folders, they can just make them--which is what is great about
AOL. If people make too many folders and things become an unwieldy mess, in
the name of housekeeping GoldenSeva can delete them.

I have been happy with the past arrangements, the recent arrangements, and
the present arrangements--and probably will be happy with the future
arrangements.  I am not invested in any particular idea about the folders, so
anything if fine with me.

The Losing My Religion folder is not inherently a SYDA folder but something
broader, and it would be nice if it remains for those interested (which
includes me).   

Just having a SYDA folder with no restrictions was the way it used to be.  I
had no problem with that.  The recent Supporters/Ethics split was done for
reasons that remain unclear to me today (despite all that was said); and, in
retrospect, we can see it achieved little--since the Supporters folder is
dormant.  Who knows: it may grow active in time.  As it stands, the little
activity on the Supporters folder could be included in just a "General SYDA
folder(s)."  

AOL is aptly named:  "America Online."  All of us, collectively, are
exploring a genre which has no precedent.  Whatever needed experimentation
with folder configurations, terms of service, formats, etc. that attends this
exploration is fine with me.

Subj:  Howie's lingam
Date:  96-05-06 11:44:32 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear AOL readers,

I carry around a lingam wherever I go--at all times, in all places.  Barring
the possibility of invasive surgery, I have no choice in the matter.

Subj:  Don't shut up!
Date:  96-05-08 06:46:10 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Dear former syda folk:

Well, things are quieter since we got that little reprimand from our AOL
authorities.  Enomni has signed off, it appears, and others who emerged
recently, Fibs, Violet and Agni, are quiet again.  

I hope it isn't just because of the warning.  That seems a shame to me.  I
hope that an authoritative voice hasn't caused a fearful retreat into
silence.  Doesn't that seem WAY too much like life in SYDA?  Children should
be seen and not heard. . .  Submissive devotees and ex-devotees should also
do as they're told, mind their own business, go within, shut down and shut
up.  

I don't know about you, but I've been depressed ever since this warning
thing.  

I thought it was about various things related to some difficulties I'm having
catching up economically, after 13 years of slayva, but I wonder if it's this
"be careful what you say" stuff.  Because that's a big trigger for me.
Psychologically, it puts me in the place of being very small, and angry at
someone big who is wrong, but who uses their power to make me shut up.  It's
deja vu all over again, as I think Yogi Berra once said.  

That's why someone's recent comment about "getting over my anger" is so
irritating and offensive.  What is wrong with anger?  WHAT THE TOS IS WRONG
WITH ANGER?  Human beings need to be angry, because otherwise they turn into
Florence Henderson on the Brady Bunch.  What is so frightening about anger?
It's always the people who are the most angry who seem to need to tell others
to get over their anger.  Their anger that they claim to have gotten over
oozes out all over the place, indirect, covert, denied and disguised.  And
oddly enough, people around these types are always angry at them.   Because
when the angry one denies their anger, someone else gets to hold the hot
potato.  Anyway, getting over my anger is not on my agenda.  Having a less
restricted repertoire of emotions I'm capable of expressing, besides Brady
Bunch or Barney emotions, is more what I'm after. (I love you, you love me,
we're a happy family, you vill believe this, or ve vill make you believe.
ACHTUNG!)

But I digress.  Back to the point.  It's become apparent to me how alone and
frightened people are when they start having doubts about SYDA.  Some of us
made it our whole lives, didn't know anyone that wasn't in it, had every nook
and cranny decorated with her picture, and the car, too, and the cat's name
was Vairagya, and the wedding bands said "Om guru om", etc etc etc.  And
then, when your whole world is decorated with syda,  where do you go when you
have doubts?  Where is it safe to speak out without getting shot down, with
"love" or guilt or shame or shunning.  Safer to just shut up and crawl back.

I know a man and his wife who one of GM's secretary types took on as a
special recruitment project.  This couple have a LOT of money.  GM's
recruiter paid oh so much special attention to them.  When she introduced
them to GM, she said, "you're about to meet a living saint."  When he asked
this woman months later about GM's relationship to George Afif, her bashing
of her brother, and her acceptance of women being sexually harrassed in the
ashram, she told him "Gurumayi is a human being."  (That old shell game
stuff).  She said his doubts were the product of his messed up ego.
Essentially, she told him he was a fool for asking questions, doubting,
thinking.  What a clever and effective way to mow a person down, keep them
small, and under control.  Great example of sadistic rage disguised as love.

Please don't stop talking, folks.  I mean, we all need to have a life, and
enjoy spring, and not sit in front of the computer too much.  But I hope you
haven't been persuaded, once again, to shut up and shut down. 

Subj:  Replies to Dissent
Date:  96-05-08 08:35:42 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      


Dissent, regarding the recent lull in the syda folders, you said, 

      <<  I hope it isn't just because of the warning.  >>

The warning did have a chilling effect, but I think the lull is mainly due to
the huge wave of posting that preceded it.  I think everyone needed a break.
I hope so, that is.  As for me being more quiet online, my 2 -3 week work
lull has ended and it's back to reality.  I won't stop posting.

And thanks for tipping your hat to Yogi Berra.  Now *there's* a yogi we
should have emulated.  Despite his abundant talent and success, Yogi Berra
was famous for being the first ball player to arrive at the stadium in the
morning for workout and practice.  He had the humility to know that his
performance on the field was a transitory gift which he needed to continually
work at to keep up.  He was a man of humor and decency, a genuine human
being, and universally respected by his peers.  "Our" former yogi has
uncountable devotees, but how many of her peers (other gurus, spiritual
leaders, etc.) did you see coming to the ashram for her friendship and
spiritual comraderie?  Can you remember any?  If you can, what happened to
them.  I think the few that came all stay away now.

   << WHAT THE TOS IS WRONG WITH ANGER?  
        Human beings need to be angry....  >>

I think appropriate anger is a great thing.  I think it makes it possible to
bring thoughts, issues, and confusions to the surface so they can be worked
on and resolved.  I think these things are largely responsible for the
persistence of anger.  Anger is something that comes to our rescue, to help
us identify and work through these things which, if left alone, will
continually hinder our well being.  So I propose a toast to appropriate anger
and its role in our growth.

<<  Essentially, she told him he was a fool for asking 
      questions, doubting, thinking.  What a clever and 
      effective way to mow a person down, keep them 
      small, and under control.  Great example of sadistic 
      rage disguised as love.  >>

I also think there is a strong element of contempt at work in such put downs.
Without the benefit of a guru many people are highly successful and well
developed in their human capacities.  I have observed that this elicits
various forms of disguised contempt in SY -- contempt for independent
thinking, contempt for sexual beauty, contempt for worldly success, contempt
for well developed human qualities.  I think the basis for this contempt is
this:  Seeing such people can easily remind the guru and her devotees that it
is not devotion to the guru which is responsible for the good qualities in a
person.  It is too frightening to think about such things.  Contempt is a
better response.  But don't let raw contempt express itself.  Better to
disguise it as prasad, or the lavishing of attention, or special treatment.
Or tantric initiation, for that matter.
  
There was a confused post on Usenet recently (by the illustrious Ken Stuart)
denying the fact that recruitment or love bombing occur in SY.  Actually
these things *do* exist in SY but they are reserved for special cases --
wealthy folk, Sanskrit scholars, etc.  I have seen intense recruitment in the
form of love bombing and special treatment, carried out by GM's proxies and
GM herself.  When she wants someone badly, she pulls out all the stops.

Subj:  Re:Don't shut up!
Date:  96-05-08 14:21:31 EDT
From:  Shridevi        

OK, Dissent.

Yes, when the AOL warning first bubbled up it did seem familiar.  A lot of
double talk about what was acceptable and relevant.  And I found myself
really wondering if somehow SYDA had put pressure on AOL to do something.
And I remembered that, even if this is not true, still SYDA has so much money
and they will get away with things, and they have gotten away with things.   

Sometimes, when I look back at some of the things I suffered through in the
ashram, and the psychological toll it has taken on my life, I do feel a lot
of grief.  What a waste.  Whatever was good about Siddha Yoga I could have
experienced without all the traumas, thank you.  I have friends who look at
it all from a positive light.  See what we learned, see how ultimately SY is
a true path because it makes you grow up or whatever.  But sometimes I don't
really want to find ways to buffer myself from the fact that I could have
done much better if I had grown up without the ashram.  I hesistate to say
all these things on this board because I don't like it when people who have
no real information and just think that I must be lying about sexual abuse
get on and seethe at me.  (is that a word?)  I know you just ignore them,
Dissent.  And mostly I do too 'cause I rarely sign on anymore.  But I am not
without my emotional responses to being like Anita Hill or whatever.  This
did not happen, you are making this up.  I don't know why you would want to
make this up. . .    For anyone who cares, I haven't made anything up.  And
so, like you, Dissent, I continue to say things now and then just because it
seems important to put a drop in the bucket of non-reality.  

With all the PR and flyers and nice little things that make everyone feel
cozy - feel "that is not MY experience so therefore you, as a human being,
should just shut up and leave me alone" - with all that it seems important to
ask:  doesn't your conscience have something else to say?  wouldn't you like
to know what is really going on in that place that you give all your money
to?  doesn't your REAL spiritual impulse, the spiritual impulse that brought
you to Siddha Yoga in the first place, doesn't it feel a connection to other
people and care how they are treated, not to mention how the environment
(lake Nityananda) is also casually damaged without remorse?  The kind of
courage it takes to look at and then stand up to the SY machine is the same
courage it will take to look at and stand up to the bigger issues of our
society.  

So, from time to time, I guess I'll keep saying what I know.

Subj:  Re:Don't shut up!
Date:  96-05-08 14:51:59 EDT
From:  Shridevi        

I was reminded again of my recent lunches with Ram Butler.  For anyone who
missed them, I will recount a couple details.


Ram asked, and I told him, that I stopped reading the course after he put out
the newsletter in response to the New Yorker article which suggested that
people should "pray for" (me) and quoted some poor Siddha Yogini who didn't
know what was going on who said "I know for a fact that all those things are
not true."  Nowhere in the newsletter did RAM say these things were untrue,
but he rhetorically used this woman to say what he could not.  

Ram admitted to me that he did not write this newsletter, that Richard
Gillette wrote it.  

I asked Ram what he wrote that was not acceptable.

He wrote about how WHAT BABA DID WAS A TANTRIC THING THAT WE CANNOT
UNDERSTAND.

OK - so here is a teacher of Siddha Yoga admitting that these things
happened.

Ram would not share this with our mutual friend because he didn't think 'Ek'
could handle it.  There are other things that I am not supposed to tell 'Ek'
about because 'Ek' (a center leader with very important seva who is on tour a
lot) could not handle it.  (I have decided not to tell you all what this is
but )

This reminds me of the meeting with Swami Shantananda where he said "How
could (person from Ann Arbor) call himself a disciple of Baba when he drinks
WINE!!!!!"  Given what Baba was up to - it hardly seems out of line.  For any
of you who may have had a glass of wine with your dinner recently, know that
Swami Shantananda would find that grounds to ridicule your right to
discipleship.

 Siddha Yoga teachers are, indeed human.  It doesn't matter to me what Ram
does with his life, but it matters that he feels his so called friends can't
handle the truth.

So there you have it that Siddha Yoga teachers make judgements about what
certain people can "handle" knowing.  And just because you are a center
leader or work in the art department or have elite seva, doesn't necessarily
mean you know "for a fact" what is going on.  

I asked Ram what if it was his daughter on the table and he winced a little.
Then he dismissed my question by saying "that is not happening anymore."
Maybe not on tables, no.  So - here we have a Siddha Yoga teacher admitting
about the table (a lame excuse for tantra) and willing to be in the dark
about what is going on even if it might have consequences for one of his
children.  (As a former Siddha Yoga child I can say that it is definitely my
parent's naivete that made it possible for what happened to have happened.
If they knew what was really going on, we would not have been there.  But
they were never told the truth about what was going on because, even though
we all were center leaders, we couldn't handle it.)

And so we have the opportunity, on AOL of all places, to consider what is the
relationship between our spirituality and our social conscience.  For Ram
Butler, there is none.  For me, there is.

Subj:  Contempt 
Date:  96-05-08 14:51:49 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Dear Fibs (if I may be so bold as to address you using the diminutive version
of your name):

First of all, I've been a Fibonacci fan ever since I read about his numbers
in Smithsonian magazine years ago.  

Next, I loved all your points in your latest.  Yes, GM is incredibly isolated
and without contact with other spiritual leaders.  This is partly because
genuine spirituality is not on her agenda -- control, power and wealth is.
But also, she is extremely dependent on maintaining her delusion of absolute,
ultimate perfection.  (AS IF HER SINGING DIDN'T IMMEDIATELY BLOW THAT ONE
OUT
OF THE WATER ANYWAY!)   Contact with other spiritual leaders could only leave
her vulnerable and would expose her delusional grandiosity, her contempt, and
her appalling ineptitude.
 
About the contempt GM has for others, how it undergirds her seductiveness and
magananimity.  I'm going to quote a long one from Fromm's "Escape from
Freedom"  This blew my mind when I read it.

"We find 3 kinds of sadistic tendencies, more or less closely knit together.
One is to make others dependent on oneself and to have absolute and
unrestricted power over them, so as to make of them nothing but instruments,
'clay in the potter's hand.' [Hemananda, Panne, and all the other battered
spouses] Another consists of the impulse not only to rule over others in this
absolute fashion, but to exploit them, and, so to speak, to incorporate
anything eatable in them. This desire can refer to material things as well as
to immaterial ones, such as the emotional or intellectual qualities a person
has to offer. [Those who know how GM usurps other people's talents and calls
them her own can understand this].  A third kind of sadistic tendency is the
wish to make others suffer or to see them suffer.  This suffering can be
physical, but more often it is mental suffering.  Its aim is to hurt
actively, to humiliate, embarrass others, or to see them in embarrassing and
humiliating situations.[the Seva Course, No Ego Course, Fire Course, etc.]

"...The sadist needs the person over whom he rules, he needs him very badly,
since his own feeling of strength is rooted in the fact that he is the master
over someone...Often [sadistic tendencies] are covered up by reaction
formations of overgoodness or overconcern for others.  Some of the most
frequent rationalizations are the following: "I rule over you because I know
what is best for you, and in your own interest you should follow me without
opposition."  Or, "I am so wonderful and unique, that I have a right to
expect that other people become dependent on me."  Another rationalization
which often covers the exploiting tendencies is: "I have done so much for
you, and now I am entitled to take from you what I want."  ...

"He may think he wishes to dominate their lives because he loves them so
much.  HE ACTUALLY "LOVES" THEM BECAUSE HE DOMINATES THEM.  He bribes
them
with material things, with praise, assurances of love, the display of wit and
brilliance, or by showing concern.  He may give them everything - everything
except one thing:  the right to be free and independent."

I experienced GM in every sentence of the above quote.  Also Werner Erhard.
It's good to know that other people have seen through the hypnotic
manipulation to what's really going on.  It really helps you not feel like
you're the crazy one.

Subj:  Re: Re: Anger
Date:  96-05-09 08:30:30 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      


Mira Bai M wrote,

<<  If you don't work through your anger completely 
      and achieve full forgiveness....  >>

I think the idea of working through anger is somewhat of a misunderstanding.
I don't think you really work through anger itself.  You work through the
thoughts, feelings, and confusions that are responsible for the persistence
of anger.  

Anger persists as long as all these things aren't given attention, expressed,
"worked on", etc., and rightly so.  Anger serves us well if we look at all
these things, think about them, express them, hear what others have to say
about them, and process it all.  Anger doesn't serve us well if we just feel
anger and express it in a misdirected way, without paying attention to the
things which we are angry about.  I think the point is to deal with it all,
to work through it all.  

It seems pretty clear that that is being done quite well in this online
forum.  I think there is a lot for us to be angry about regarding SY,
especially those of us who gave major portions of our lives to it and found
ourselves betrayed and abused.  I don't think anger itself is really the
issue here.  The issues to me are, "Are we engaging in dialog, are we being
real people, are we dealing with the facts, are we sorting out our
confusions, are we facing our pains, etc."  I think the answer to all those
questions is YES.  

So let's just continue doing what we're doing here.  Even engaging each other
on questions regarding anger, etc.  These are our honest thoughts, the
genuine self expression of our individualities, and we should respect them.
These discussions here have reintroduced the integrity to our thinking and
self reflection which SY derailed in us.  It's a good forum we've stumbled
into here.  It's real.  It's an antidote to the years of mindlessness that we
all have suffered from, and anger plays its appropriate role.  

Subj:  The map called anger
Date:  96-05-09 21:39:59 EDT
From:  Bhav            


"Sloth, apathy, and despair are the enemy. Anger is not. Anger is our friend.
Not a nice friend. Not a gentle friend. But a very, very loyal friend. It
will always tell us when we have been betrayed. It will always tell us when
we have betrayed ourselves. It will always tell us that it is time to act in
our own best interests.
  Anger is not the action itself. It is action's invitation."
and
"Anger is a tool, not a master."
also
"Anger is meant to be acted upon. It is not meant to be acted out."

-- "The Artist's Way" by Julia Cameron

Subj:  Anger
Date:  96-05-09 22:39:09 EDT
From:  Violet1884      

This conversation about anger is interesting.  Upon reflection I realize that
the first symptom for me of trouble with SYDA was anger.  I became very angry
in general and especially with GM.  I did not know exactly then why I was
angry with GM but I was  -  just furious with her a lot of the time.  Of
course there were many things to be angry about but I was not clear about
them at the time.  I tended to think the anger was inappropriate and
therefore I directed it toward  myself and that turned into depression.  So
now that I know not only why I was angry but also that it was appropriate
anger it is occuring to me that perhaps anger can be a useful tool that I can
look at as a way of telling me when something is going on that is “off” and I
should take a closer look at it.  

I do not always manage to live my life this way, but I tend to think that
emotions are neither good nor bad  -  they simply ARE.  We have them as
messages to keep us alert to what is going on in life.  The trick is to not
grab a hold of them and cling to them.  I try to remember the image of seeing
emotions like clouds passing on by.  See them, enjoy them, learn from them
but do not grab a hold of them.  When I manage to do that I can learn
something about what is going on with me and around me without allowing the
emotions to define who I am.  

I wish I could do that more of the time  -  but when I remember and manage to
do that it seems to work.  I also think that the more mature I get and the
higher my self-esteem goes (and both of those things are increasing the
further I get away from SY) the more I am able to use emotions in this more
useful way.  

I just read the quote from Julie Cameron and see she is saying pretty much
the same thing.  

Thanks for being here.  

Violet.  


Subj:  Feelings(not the song title)
Date:  96-05-10 06:42:30 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Not to be contrary, really - just in the spirit of open conversation: 

I've had to learn to do just the opposite with my emotions - stop trying to
let them float by like clouds, but rather grab them.  Because I got used to
this continuous attempt to suppress my emotions in SYDA and ended up not
knowing how I felt or what I felt.  It was depersonalizing. Feelings were too
confusing, so everything ultimately got boiled down to, "let me cling to your
feet, hang on to your feet." (Whew, that really gags me now.)  When I left,
years of suppressed emotions started erupting all over the place and it was
overwhelming.  

Now I try to welcome my emotions - and grab on to them.  I'm trying to get
over the idea that "if I'm very good, and don't burden others with myself
(i.e., my emotions), then others will like me and God will like me."  For me,
that method has proven to be utterly futile and self-destructive.  I need
instead to really listen carefully to what my emotions are and let myself
feel deeply, in order to relate to the world and other people with any
authenticity or genuine connection.

Again, no offense to anyone, but the clouds roll by stuff just seems to me
like the same old same old, like an internalization of the syda
indoctrination, the covert purpose of which was to maintain my dependence and
submission.  Remember how important it was to look happy in front of GM?  GM
doesn't want to know from your real feelings, she wants you to shut up and do
more seva, bring in more new people, and get her more money.   And look
happy, with nice clothes, so that new people with money will see how happy
and well-dressed everybody looks.  Hide your frowns - if you can't get your
mouth to go up instead of down, get happy, get plastic surgery, or get out.
I know horror stories about her reaction to people who had tragic deaths in
their families:  I can't tell these stories here because my friends would not
want them broadcast like this.  But GM's cruelty and callousness in the face
of other people's feelings is stunning.  Sorry I can't give more detail.

So that's why I think it's important, especially post-SYDA, to grab hold of
my emotions and not let them float by.  These feelings are my inner truth and
part of my identity, and they have important meaning that I must understand
if I want to love and to grow.  I can't be intimate with others if I am
over-regulating my feelings - because if I am screening and censoring myself,
I'm not with myself and not really with others.  Isnt' that precisely the
SYDA M.O.?  You're doing seva and chanting with all these blissed out people,
and you may even know them for years, and YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW EACH OTHER
AT
ALL.  Sometimes you don't even know their English names, or what job they
have, let alone how they really feel about anything.  All you know about them
is how many pictures of ImeldaMayi they bought at the bookstore.

As I continue to shed the ready-made syda identity I had adopted, in hopes
that it would magically erase and hide all my doubts and fears, I am trying
to recognize and value my own identity.  ***I want to figure out what my
identity IS, when I'm not trying to be what I think others -- like GM, God,
my parents, the world at large -- WANT me to be.***  (That's a big one.)
Grabbing hold of my feelings and really trying to understand what these
things MEAN, instead of drowning them out with magic syllables and formulae,
has been a really important way to salvage myself out of the syda wreckage.

Subj:  To Dissent
Date:  96-05-10 13:52:08 EDT
From:  Violet1884      

To Dissent

Actually I agree with almost all of what you say.  I don’t think we are
talking opposites actually, just using different terms.  Perhaps the metaphor
of the clouds rolling by was not a good one so lets drop it and I will see if
I can explain what I meant in a different way.  

I agree that we must never push emotions aside and not deal with them.  That
is the worst thing we can do with emotions.  And I agree that SYDA tended to
press us to do this  -  the so-called “negative” ones anyway.  I too hated
that “blissed out” persona that we all took on while at the same time there
was seething anger under the surface that was coming out in mean and passive
ways.  (I learned more about passive aggressive behavior in SYDA than I ever
wanted to know!!)  Bliss bunnies can be very mean with sweet smiles on their
faces!

After SYDA I have learned to see emotions non-judgmentally.  In other words
not to see them as positive or negative  -  the positive ones being love and
joy and happiness etc. and the negative ones being anger, and fear, and
depression etc.  In SYDA emotions were definitely in two camps.  We were to
increase and express the positive and decrease and suppress the negative.  I
think  this is a very one sided way to view emotions and it does not work.
All that happens is that we artificially promoted the positive EVEN WHEN THEY
WERE NOT THERE.  And we pushed down and suppressed and felt guilty about the
negative  -  and of course that only forced them to stay around and grow and
grow.  

So, now I am trying to look at all my emotions as being with me for a purpose
and to look at them squarely and learn what they have to tell me.  They are
tools.  When we are building a house for example, we do not divide up our
tools and put half of them away in a box and tell ourselves we cannot use
them.  So why would we do that with emotions which are important tools of
life?

When I used the metaphor of the clouds, I meant just the opposite of
suppression.  So let me try and explain the point I was trying to make
without using that metaphor.  When I was in SYDA and was not supposed to
express so-called negative emotions, I found that the suppressed emotions
just grew bigger  -  I think in a desperate attempt to get me to take notice
of them.   So I found I tended to define myself in terms of my emotions, be
those emotions peace, joy, anger, or whatever.  I thought they were
expressing what I was and then that went on to my defining myself as good or
bad.  I do not believe that my emotions are the definition of myself now.  I
think I am more than my emotions.  

However, this does not mean that I do not take notice of my emotions.  I try
to see them as great messages and I try to see them, feel them and learn from
them.  What I am finding is that when I do not suppress my emotions and do
not label them as good or bad I can then truly feel them (and enjoy them too)
and more clearly see the message they are trying to tell me.  I am also
noticing that when I do this, the emotions do not tend to stay around.  Once
I have understood the message then those emotions tend to go away and a new
set arrive with new messages.  

I see this approach as being MUCH more alive than the SYDA approach of, as
you say Dissent, looking happy, putting on nice (and expensive) clothes and
hiding our frowns!  This way every thing is available to us  -  all our human
tools.  This way too, I am not forestalled in one set of emotions and defined
by them but can keep moving on in a flowing and natural way.  I do not want
to ever again see myself as a “good” person only when I am happy and a “bad”
person when I am sad or angry or afraid.  That is truly crazy making.  As you
say, Dissent, let us WELCOME our emotions and I add, let us let them do their
job and allow us to live our lives more fully.  Then, when they have done
their job, I want to be able to let them go.  

See part 2.
 
Subj:  To Dissent part 2
Date:  96-05-10 13:53:25 EDT
From:  Violet1884      

I wonder if these two posts express what I meant more accurately than my last
post.  As I say Dissent, we agree  -  especially about the “bliss bunnies”.
Lord protect me from them  -  and protect me from ever becoming one!!

Thanks for being here. 

Violet

Subj:  emotions / sy / happy face
Date:  96-05-10 15:51:28 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      

Regarding the conversation between Larryom and Dissent about clinging to the
guru's feet, identifying with the inner witness, suppressing emotions, and
the SY happy face:

Clinging to the guru's feet was encouraged by GM and SY teachers in countless
talks, courses, bhajans, etc.  It was part of the SY teaching.  So was the
other approach -- identifying with the witness state.  Again it's the syda
shell game.  And it was indeed a trap door for anyone but the guru and her
proxies who moved the shells.    

This business of derailing thoughts and feelings wasn't just a trap for those
in the inner circle. The pleasant tranquility which most ashramites display
is accompanied by a fear of being real, a fear of expressing "negative"
emotions and doubts.  Revealing such signs of being a real person is
discouraged in SY.  It is very frightening for a devotee to even recognize
these things let alone express them, or burden others with them.
  
SY culture dictates the happy face and implies the suppression of true
feelings and thoughts (except for the spiritually correct ones).  I watched
many devotees put on the happy face while obviously feeling troubled about
things.  The ones who can successfully suppress their feelings remain on
staff and proceed deeper into zombiehood.  The ones who simply can't do it
any longer end up here on AOL. 

Subj:  emotions
Date:  96-05-10 17:35:03 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Dear Violet -

Thanks for your posts in response to mine.  I am really glad that you didn't
take offense at what I said, or see it as an insult.  I thank you for saying
more about what you meant, because you said it beautifully, and yes, I think
we do indeed agree in many ways.  

Thanks also to Fibs for your elaboration of the point.  The distinction
between the damages of being in the inner or the outer circles in SYDA is
often much smaller than some would like to believe.

I also appreciate both of you, Violet and Fibs, and many others who post
here, for refraining from the impulse to teach and preach to me or others.
Instead, I really appreciate how you talk about what you experienced and what
you felt, and what you experience and feel now.  It is much harder to do that
than it is to dispense "teachings."   For some, it appears, the impulse to
"teach" is irresisitible, which is too bad, because when people start trying
to be teachers on this board, I really tune out.  Even if they have something
worthwhile to say, saying it in the form of "teachings, " descending from a
lofty perch to show the benighted the folly of their ways, pretty much
guarantees that I can't be bothered.  

So thanks to those who talk about their experiences, their information and
their feelings.  It's great to hear what you have to say.

Subj:  REPOST: emotions / sy / etc.
Date:  96-05-11 10:33:30 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      


================================
NOTE:  THIS IS A REPOST OF A MESSAGE WHICH WAS DELETED BY SERMONER1. 
(He
found the Z word objectionable and deleted the post.  Here it is again
without the Z word.)
================================

Regarding the conversation between Larryom and Dissent about clinging to the
guru's feet, identifying with the inner witness, suppressing emotions, and
the SY happy face:

Clinging to the guru's feet was encouraged by GM and SY teachers in countless
talks, courses, bhajans, etc.  It was part of the SY teaching.  So was the
other approach -- identifying with the witness state.  Again it's the syda
shell game.  And it was indeed a trap door for anyone but the guru and her
proxies who moved the shells.    

This business of derailing thoughts and feelings wasn't just a trap for those
in the inner circle. The pleasant tranquility which most ashramites display
is accompanied by a fear of being real, a fear of expressing "negative"
emotions and doubts.  Revealing such signs of being a real person is
discouraged in SY.  It is very frightening for a devotee to even recognize
these things let alone express them, or burden others with them.
  
SY culture dictates the happy face and implies the suppression of true
feelings and thoughts (except for the spiritually correct ones).  I watched
many devotees put on the happy face while obviously feeling troubled about
things.  The ones who can successfully suppress their feelings remain on
staff and continue the relentless process of whittling away their human
integrity.  The ones who simply can't do it any longer end up here on AOL. 

Subj:  Comparative religion info
Date:  96-05-11 14:54:37 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear AOL readers,

This is an information post on a recognized world religion--Haitian
voodoo--and thus is well within the TOS guidelines recently set forth.  The
focus of this message series is on drawing an objective, rigorous comparison
between one component of Haitian voodoo and SYDA.  Hence it belongs on the
SYDA folder.  My planned message series deals with the ethical problem of
religions using members for farming, gardening, and construction work.  Hence
it belongs on the SYDA ethics folder.  Again, all this is well within TOS
guidelines.

The word "zombies" is considered by some to be substandard.  In fact,
"zombification" has been one of the recognized rites of voodoo since the word
"zombis" came into common (i.e., standard) usage in 1871.  Because the
socio-economic function of zombification in voodoo IS IDENTICAL to that of
certain mind control processes in SYDA, to refer to SYDA disciples as zombies
is rigorously correct.  This can be demonstrated through a comparison of
primary documents from both religious sects.

It is a commonplace in comparative religions to substitute terms.  For
example, a water ritual in the Yorubas is often referred to in translation as
"baptism," though they are not Baptists.  So the use of the word "zombies" to
those who have not literally gone through the voodoo rite of zombification
has ample precedent.  

To indicate that the word "zombies" is the the right word requires one to
demonstrate a close resemblance between SYDA rituals and Voudou
zombification. In subsequent posts I will do so, drawing on appropriate
documents (in English translation). 

 The basic idea is, in Haitian voodoo, zombification is used to produce
docile laborers for farm and building work.  This is also the socioeconomic
function of mind control in the SYDA group, which historically has used large
numbers of unpaid laborers in their ambitious building and groundskeeping
projects.  My methodology here is nothing new or suspect--this kind of
socioeconomic comparison in religion studies is a commonplace. 

By the way, the term "mind control" is not a violation of TOS, for it is
consistent with SYDA's own definition of their yogic aim:  "yoga is the
control of thought-waves in the mind" (Patanjali I/2).  How that control is
to be effected is a matter of debate, clearly, but that is besides my point
here, which is:  "mind control" is how both SYDA critics and adherents
describe SYDA's aims, and is thus an uncontroversial term (though it has
different sets of connotations, depending on your point of view).

Subj:  Favorite quotes dept.
Date:  96-05-11 21:48:37 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      


The other Siddha Yoga Ethics Debate message board had some interesting quotes
lately.  PERDUCO posted some good Spanish proverbs and the Julia Cameron
quote on anger in Bhav's recent post pretty much said it all on that subject.

Here's one of my favorites, from Andrew Harvey on the subject of abusive
gurus:

<<  I wonder what use is this transcendent knowledge that they claim to have
if, in fact, it results in manipulation.  Let's face it, what's going on is
much more than people sleeping around and misusing funds or whatever.  It is
abuse of a very profound kind.  It is child abuse.  It is abuse of someone in
their most defenseless position, because no one is more defenseless than a
devotee rapt in adoration before a master.  So what kind of wisdom could they
possibly have if they are first indulging in that kind of abuse and then
denying it in sometimes criminal ways?  We really do have to face the full
extent of their failure, and that is very painful, because we then have to
face our illusions about them and the ways in which we colluded with them in
our hope for magical solutions and transformations on the cheap.  >>   (Yoga
Journal, July 95)
Fibs

Subj:  sex table, laws, and ethics
Date:  96-05-11 21:56:45 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear AOL readers,

Hearing the insane screaming of a woman from inside a SYDA meditation
"intensive," and seeing her led by two security men, one on each arm, from
the meditation hall in a state of utter lunacy, was just another bit of
anecdotal evidence thrust upon me supporting the following thesis:

SYDA imposes a regimen of brainwashing on program participants, and that
brainwashing has damaging short- and long-term consequences.  

The signature trait of a brainwashed SYDA disciple is the inability to
distinguish between problems of speculative metaphysics, and common-sense
ethics.  For example, when confronted with evidence supporting allegations
that their gurus have covered up and participated in child molestation,
disciples respond with something like "those who feel such matters are worth
discussing are projecting their own negativities on a perfect world, and are
spiritually bereft."

Our society has been able to agree upon sensible laws that, more or less,
outline what constitutes acceptable, ethical behavior.   We have been able to
come up with these laws without providing final answers regarding the core
metaphysical principles of the universe.  We do not need to know whether God
is a man with a beard, or a white light, or an unmanifest presence--for
instance--to know that there is no place for coercive child molestation in
our society.   

To conflate metaphysics and ethics by arguing, say, that a guru's awareness
of metaphysics places them above the ethical laws of human conduct is
monstrous, sociopathic--and a signal trait of SYDA brainwashing.  

It is one of the great things about America that we have in place a system of
common-sense ethics, despite the simultaneous presence of different
religions, races, and cultures.  We do not need to agree upon minutiae of
religious dogma to have a consensus on matters of the general social welfare.


SYDA is unethical precisely in that it uses woolly metaphysics to override
people's common-sense feeling for ethical conduct.  

Subj:  Re:What's up, Howie?
Date:  96-05-12 08:58:49 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

PART 2 OF 2

Dear Bodhimalik,

you say

<<<I can't figure out the purpose of the postings.  What is it you are after
- catharsis?  Someone to take action?  A warning about that cult?  A
solution. maybe?>>>

The history of this thread is, there are many present and former participants
in Siddha Yoga, and many of them "lurk" or post on the AOL message boards.
Some of them still believe in the radical solipsistic position, and as a
consequence are accomplices in various ways in the abuses perpetrated by the
organization. They contribute money, labor, time, and recruit formally and
informally.  Some are victims, with "unprocessed" issues stemming from
residual brainwashing.  Upon reading posts on AOL that rebracket the
teachings of SYDA in a non-propagandistic way, some active members reevaluate
their involvement; former members find here a congenial community of people
with whom they share a common set of issues.  I believe the stimulating of
new ways of thinking about SYDA is consistent with the information/discussion
format of AOL.

This is one of the only areas in which SYDA is spoken about in terms other
than those designed by SYDA's own advertising and (what they call)
"programming" departments.  Given this, I am not so concerned about having
people agree with my specific points, as in opening up topics that simply
look at the "mind technology" of SYDA in a NEW LIGHT.  I certainly hope this
area doesn't turn into just me going on and on about obvious ethical
things--which is certainly what my recent post does.  I don't think it will,
I think others will join in with different perspectives.  My earlier post had
the modest aim of just kicking things off with something ethically obvious. 

<<<I would find a disclosure by you as to why you posted this to be
interesting.  It seems to be important to you, and I would be interested in
why.>>>

An unfortunate problem with SYDA discussions is they often assume a lot of
"insider" knowledge.  SYDA has created its own peculiar world of concepts and
terms that separate it from the rest of society.  And common words, such as
the word "experience," is invested with all kinds of bizarre connotations.
"Insiders"--those who have been involved with SYDA--have a context within
which to evaluate my last post.  But let me attempt a general answer to your
query that steers clear of trying to provide the "insider" context:  

I think the social dynamics of ideological power structures to be not only
among the most fascinating subjects I've ever encountered, but the most
important.  Under the sway of group dynamics,"technologies" of mind control,
and the gradual internalization of bizarre ideological concepts, you get good
people doing bad things, and doing them en masse.  The conflation of abstract
ideology (often metaphysical) and ethical rationale is a common thread in
these power structures gone berserk (this being the general point of my last
post). 

SYDA is a fascinating microcosm of this kind of dysfunctional ideological
power structure.  This is interesting, and worth noting, and discussing
microcosmic social systems like SYDA can reveal much about how we function
and develop as a society in general. 

There are others who are much better at speaking to these issues than I, and
as they move over here from the old location the function of this folder will
gradually define itself--in ways broader than I have considered here, or am
even capable of predicting.  

Thanks much for your reasoned response.  I understand exactly why someone
would respond to my statement of the obvious as you did!  Have a great week.

Subj:  Just opened my eyes
Date:  96-05-12 10:03:14 EDT
From:  D Morgaina      

Violet - I experienced something very similar in that upon discovering SY I
thought I had found a spiritual home.  One day I was hanging out at the Net
and thought I'd do a search on SYDA since GM had been on tour I thought there
would be some great stuff.  What I found was the open letter, and all the
cult stuff!!  As a mother of young women and a grandmother of a beautiful
baby girl I couldn't imagine exposing my family to even potential harm.
Andrew Cohen in a publication called "What is Enlightenment" talks about
false teachers and spiritual slavery.  After reviewing more than 100 pages of
stuff gleened off the internet I spoke with a center leader, turned over my
seva and completely withdrew from the community.  It's been announced that I
have become too busy for satsang and I have left it at that (I did give a
copy of the info to the current center leader).  At first I felt like I was
left hanging out to dry and that all my supports had just been taken away --
and then almost at once I found myself.  I took all my pictures down and
filled the frames with pictures of my children.  My involvement with SY
starting me on a path of spiritual exploration.  I have looked at the people
who are inspirational and those I admire do not have the taint of scandal
about them.  What a great wake up call.  I appreciate this board and some I
have corresponded with for their support and humor!


Subj:  Been there, done that, Larry
Date:  96-05-12 10:49:01 EDT
From:  JJanetH2        

Larry, I finally got time to answer you. You shouldn't have said all that to
me. I am anonymous because I didn't want to receive private *** mail. Guess
what, I was right. You did indeed try to mail me.  You said so yourself.  Do
you have to get the last word?  Do you need the outside world to acknowledge
your spirituality? Does it bother you when they don't?  You probably will get
the last word because messages that are realistic about siddha yoga get
deleted because the reality doesn't sound like Religion and Ethics.

Can't you get over the idea of spirituality? What ever happened to just
helping people get over a difficult time? I've had it with spiritual people.
Spiritualness is a big hangup. Haven't you seen all those vedantic and
pseudo-hindu ideas blasted out of the water lately? Are you still trying to
hang on to the idea of spiritual versus nonspiritual? Give it up. We are all
just bodies and minds stuck on this planet having to deal with whatever comes
our way. Some of us are having a painful time of it because we make mistakes
or get into things like siddha yoga. We can't all use spirituality to cover
up our feelings.

If people still identify with their siddha yoga name after all that has come
out, fine. Only they know why they are doing it. Maybe they think it makes
them different or special.  They wouldn't have those names except for being
in siddha yoga, and now they are trying to pretend that it means something
else that has nothing to do with the fact that it was something the guru
gives you. And even if it's not a name from the guru, it still sticks out in
a place where people are trying to forget their spiritual names.  

Did you ever think that you take up a little too much room on these boards? I
want to talk to Violet and every one too, did you ever think of that? But you
take up so much room with your correspondence course that I end up just
thinking "I don't need this." Maybe your messages interest other people but I
was in siddha for too long to go for that again. I am angry and not an ocean
of siddha yoga peace so I don't belong in your siddha yoga course. I'd rather
be alone than in another siddha yoga. Goodbye and don't write but since you
will I am deleting this screen name. 

Everyone please ignore me because what I feel doesn't count because it isn't
the right spiritual emotion and Sitaram is about to tell you so. Sorry for
not being the perfect ex siddha and having problems. You don't even know what
I went through and you pass judgment. I'm angry and weak, okay? Everyone can
now read the online siddha yoga course without me being wrong and spoiling
your perfect sadhana for exs.

Now I can be tossed away with a Ronald Reagan grin and a cute little remark
like I'm completely wrong. We're all waiting for this to happen, and probably
won't be disappointed. Maybe I can be forgiven like Dissent was forgiven.
That would make someone look real spiritual. Or maybe someone can just
dissect me like a bug.

Love, Namaste, Sitaram, Shiva, Guru Om, Om Namah Shivaya, blah blah blah.  \]

Subj:  Re:Been there, done that, La
Date:  96-05-12 14:21:01 EDT
From:  Violet1884      

I hope you see this before you go and I hope you do not go!  One of the
things I like about this board (and I have only been here two or three weeks)
is that unlike SYDA we do not need to be homogeneous.  Please stay and give
your viewpoint.  Can’t we allow everyone to have their own way of expressing
themselves regarding their whole SYDA experience?  If some people want to use
“spiritual names” so what?  If some people get kind of preachy so what?  We
are free now  -  we do not all have to toe the party line.  I hope you will
stay. 

Thanks for being here so far. 

Violet.  

Subj:  Re:Welcome D Morgania 
Date:  96-05-12 14:22:00 EDT
From:  Violet1884      

To D Morgaina      

Welcome, D Morgaina.  I am glad you are here.  I understand completely what
you have been through and I admire how quickly you were able to realize that
there was “something rotten in the State of Demark”!!  It took me a long
time.  The first information I got about abuses in SYDA were in 1982 when an
article came out in the CoEvolution magazine about Baba’s inappropriate
behavior with young girls among other things.  Then there was the whole thing
about GM brother, Sw. Nityananda leaving.  We were told all kinds of
differing stories at that time.  At first we were told that he was a great
disciple who was standing down because Baba had told him to just help
Gurumayi for a few years.  Then, a few months later we were told he was a
terrible person who had violated all his vows and that we should burn all his
photos or something bad would happen to us.  Then there was a whole
re-writing of history including everyone being told to return videos which
showed the two of them being installed as successors by Baba.  Then my own
experience gradually told me that SYDA was not a healthy place for me to be.
Gradually more and more information came out.  I finally left physically
about six years ago and am only now leaving emotionally.  You were so much
clearer and stronger and I greatly respect you for it.  

I am interested that you gave all the material off of the internet to your
Center Leader.  Did the CL make any responses to you about it?  It is typical
that your leaving was described in non confrontive and dishonest terms.  As I
was leaving people were saying that it was because I was doing some kind of
special seva from South Fallsburg and that was why I did not come to the
center much any more.  I am only now learning how to be clear and fearless
enough to be able to tell people the truth.

I look forward to checking out the Andrew Cohen book.  Thanks for the
reference.  

Best wishes and I look forward to reading more posts from you.  

Thanks for being here. 

Violet. 

Subj:  new folder
Date:  96-05-12 18:51:13 EDT
From:  BVena           

 someone has asked if we (meaning ex or current Siddha Yoga people) should be
left alone in this folder or should others (we?) drop in with comments from
time to time. Depends on who you are really. Have you any knowledge about
SYDA practices?  Are you going to misread what we post because we tend to
speak in SY code? Listen and learn. Are you going to preach about things
like..oh I don't know ..anger, using outmoded Freudian psycho babble? This
last point I bring up only because many of us would not have had the strength
to leave SY were it not for that raw second line of defence. Fear didn't
often work. People in SY are programmed to squeeze their anger into a box and
sit on it. This resulted in the most bizarre behavior and illnesses. That
anger is going to fly around freely in this folder is a great thing. I am
sure it is quite cathartic for many. It is also important for SY people to
see that those of us who speak this way aren't being struck by lightening.
You think I'm kidding? Go take an Intensive. 
  All of us have been told, for too long, what to do with our anger etc. No
one here is likely to be impressed with instructions on how to properly use
our emotions. We have heard it all from people more eloquent than William F.
Buckley and more endearing than Lambchop. We were fooled once....
 
Raj

P.S. Why do I choose to continue to use this "spiritual" name?  I started
posting in the SY folder using it when I was still a devotee. That I am still
the same person is a point I don't want to be missed. My views have been
changed by virtue of this information medium in the last few months. I,
however, am still me.<G> I don't consider my self spiritually evolved, thank
God. Use of it doesn't imply that. As to other peoples motives I will not
hazard a guess.   

Subj:  I just can't do doublespeak
Date:  96-05-12 21:10:07 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear AOL readers,

I just noticed that the AOL folks have chosen to designate the folders on the
Hinduism area using a new binarism as follows:

Hinduism/SYDA Yoga: Questions/Concerns

Hinduism/SYDA Yoga: DevoteesForum

I am hopeful that this renaming of the folders constitutes a positive signal;
that it indicates we are adequately complying with the new interpretation of
the terms of service.  I would hate for these discussions to end simply
because of a lack of communication between users and AOL.  I'm not sure what
they are doing, but I guess:  so far so good.

There is a hideous irony in the whole problem of trying to second-guess what
constitutes acceptable AOL speech: 

Hearing the new guidelines made me think "will I have to reword my posts so
they appear to say one thing on the surface but actually mean something
else--just to fit the new rules?"  I could NEVER do that, for that is the
manipulative game of the love-bomber, of the passive-aggressive manipulator.
That is the game of the SYDA stooge.   

When one decides to write in an artificial way, perhaps using spiritual
trappings, and concealing one's real, offensive meaning in a sneaky way, the
result is a message that would ON THE SURFACE get past any censorship.  Even
though such messages escape the censor's blade, they are the lowest of the
low.  They recall SYDA's mixed messages with ghastly effect.  

But when one decides to avoid all trace of SYDA-like duplicity and
manipulativeness, and instead use simple and direct language, the result is
SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BE CENSORED!  The highest respect one can give another
human is to tell things to them straight; yet to talk straight creates the
impression of clarity.  And since some spiritual types have learned that
clarity=anger, mushiness=love, clarity is sometimes regarded as the highest
sin.  Sometimes a sin requiring censoring. 

This is the irony of ironies--simple speech is considered offensive, whereas
duplicitous speech with the stink of faux-spirituality is considered
inoffensive.  We who strive to speak with a clear and clean voice, simply do
not sound spiritually correct enough.

Subj:  censorship - 1 of 2
Date:  96-05-13 13:14:52 EDT
From:  Dissent222

part 1 of 2
Dear AOL readers:

Recently this folder ended up having to move from Hinduism here to Ethics --
as a result of restrictions imposed by AOL.  In fact, I would be willing to
bet that the restrictions have been imposed by SYDA -- in other words, that
official as well as unofficial SYDA supporters complained to AOL about the
Hinduism SYDA message boards, and AOL submitted to their demands.  I could be
wrong about this, of course.  I don't know for a fact.  But it's an educated
guess.  I wonder if the same thing will happen here, after a while.

I think that would be a great shame, for a number of reasons.  Most
immediately, it would be a matter of regret because there are many people who
are very frightened about what they imagine might be the consequences of
leaving or even just criticizing Gurumayi and SYDA.  These people, who are
frightened that they will be punished in some way, overtly or covertly, for
expressing their doubts or fears or criticisms of SYDA, have been somewhat
encouraged by seeing the freedom of the conversation that has taken place on
AOL.

The fact that the conversation gets disrupted or moved to other folders or
even monitored, and that some people have their posts removed, is quite
disturbing to those who are still suffering from the fear that has been
deliberately induced in them by syda technology.  One doesn't just get rid of
this fear alone - you really need support over a long time-period to become
free of it, to understand it.  The fear most people have is of divine
retribution in the form of accidents or misfortunes; or fear of assault from
syda members, verbal or physical; or fear of being completely alone and
losing everything, without the ability to trust anyone.

These terrible fears are what many of us face when we leave or consider
leaving a group like syda.  The fears can be so powerful, that it becomes
easier to block it all out, forget all the doubts, and just go back.  I know
a man whose wife was raped by Baba in the Ganeshpuri ashram.  She had a
complete mental breakdown afterwards.  He, unlike others in similar
circumstances, left syda. In a few years, they divorced, after she
recompensated to some extent.  A few years later, this man got seduced back
in, and remained in until the New Yorker article (Harris, Nov. 14, 1994) came
out.

see part 2Subj:  censorhip - 2 of 2
Date:  96-05-13 13:15:21 EDT
From:  Dissent222

part 2 of 2
I say this just to give an example of how tremendous the fear of leaving is,
and how empty and alone leaving can make you feel - enough to just forget
your own truth and your own reality and accept syda's.  The only purpose I
can see to the syda version of reality is that it effectively maintains a
membership that supplies the syda leaders with enormous wealth, and also
allows GM to maintain her delusion of perfection and her dependence on having
control over people.

And that is why I think these message boards are so important.  Because they
do help people to know and articulate what they know to be true, rather than
what they are told to surrender and obey and submit to.  The message boards
even help to some extent with easing the emptiness and aloneness - that has
certainly been the case for me, although goodness knows just the boards alone
ain't enough.

Which brings me back to those picture frames full of friends and family D.
Morgaina was talking about.  People I know and love, as best I can, and who
know and love me, as best they can, have replaced the guru stranger in my
picture frames.  Working on my relationships to them, rather than attempting
to be good enough and worthy enough to be favored by the guru stranger
(either the inner or the outer version), feels far more productive and
beneficial than 13 years of slayva ever felt, although back then I would have
said otherwise.  GM gets what she needs from her devotees, but they can never
really get what they need from her - intimacy, love, personal growth.  That
comes from relating to people, not from relating to pictures of strangers.
At least that's how it's been for me.

It's hard, having real relationships with real people - I'm having to relearn
how, like learning to walk after a crippling accident.  My capacity to relate
to people was diminished in syda, although it wasn't so great before syda,
either.  Leaving syda has been a great liberation into relationship.  Some of
that relationship has happened here on AOL.  My point is, that's why this
conversation is so important and why we must not let it be censored.
Eventually, more and more people will feel free enough and supported enough
to connect with others here, even though we use our screen names and stay
anon.  At least that's a start.

As for people who post their correspondence course teachings from the heights
of their spiritual superiority, fine, let them.  In the spirit of freedom
from censorship, I will post my objections and reactions, and I hope others
will, too.

So please, if anyone gets a post TOSed (censored), please tell us about it.
Now that we've moved to what AOL says is the appropriate area, I will support
any effort against censorship here on this folder -- and I'm sure others will
as well.  It's for a good cause.

Sincerely,
Dissent222

Subj:  WHY I POST, by HowieSm
Date:  96-05-13 23:09:18 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear AOL readers,

Charlie 47 writes:

<<<Posting is a form of seva.  I am serving my heart.  The energy that
motivates me is the energy I carry throughout the day.  Why do you post?
Which of the infinite aspects of the Guru do you focus on?>>>

Howie answers:

Hmm, I think I know the answer!  I will raise my hand and the emcee can call
on me. (over here . . . over here . . .  call on me . . . GOOD!).   

(Howie picks up the mike and says . . . ) 

Dear Charlie,

I post because I focus on the negative and the baddy waddy aspects, while you
focus on the positive and the goody goody.  That means I am bad, and you are
good.  So I'm a bad man.  I got it!  Your question is a wise way to tell me
that people who post critical messages focus on the baddy waddy, and are bad,
bad people.  Did I get it right?  It's amazing how your dispossessed rage
against SYDA critics is so subtle and secretly coded that it feels like love
syrup when we swallow it.  But since I am an especially good disciple, I've
read the inner meaning of your message.  Wow, I'm so spiritual and advanced.
(Hey security man, don't take my microphone away, I'm just getting started  .
. . )

Subj:  bananas, mangos, names, etc.
Date:  96-05-13 23:14:38 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      

Usually it's best for fruits to ripen on the tree before they are picked.
Bananas and mangos are two exceptions to this rule.  They should be picked
before they are ripe and left to ripen off the tree before they are eaten.  I
think most of us left syda when we ripe.  We just couldn't take it anymore
and we fell off the tree.  Some others left the tree of syda before becoming
ripe and go through the ripening process afterwards.  If we're lucky we have
the company of others who have left but most of us probably do it on our own,
or with the help of people who weren't in syda.  Some find our way here to
AOL.

I think the best thing about this forum is its humanness and realness.  Even
when I don't agree with a post, usually I can see that the poster has given
honest thought to the matter.  This is not the case on usenet, in newsgroups
like alt.meditation, or alt.support.ex-cult.  Those newsgroups are mostly
garbage.  Thoughtlessness and personal attacks seem to be the norm there.  In
this folder there is diversity and disagreement but unlike usenet there is
real quality here.  Again, I think the reason for the quality in this folder
is the realness, the humanness, the thoughtfulness which is the norm here,
even when there's disagreement.

For contrast, check out the recent posts from Charlie47 in the SYDA devotees
folder.  I can remember (from the worst of my syda days) the abandonment of
my human realness which Charlie exemplifies in his posts.  He reels in the
devotion and joy of the magic kingdom.  He refers to one guru as his
spiritual father and to another one as his spiritual mother, as if these were
real human relationships.  He knows that hundreds of girls and women were
sexually abused by syda leaders but this doesn't disturb the wonder filled
serenity of the fantasy life which he displays in his posts.  This contrasts
starkly with all of the regular posters in this folder.  

Thank God we've returned to our senses and become people again.  This return
to humanness isn't an easy process.  Some of us take longer than others and
some might have to ripen off the tree.  I'm glad to watch us all grow as we
participate in this forum, myself included.  We all have different
personalities anyhow,  so there's going to be a lot of diversity in this
conversation no matter what.  The main thing is that all of the people who
have left syda and are regular posters here have rejected the magic kingdom
and returned to personhood, even if ambivalence about that sometimes remains.

As for spiritual names being used here, I think that's mainly due to the
online medium in which this conversation is taking place.  If we were all in
one place and talking to each other in person I doubt if anyone would be
using a spiritual name.  I think the content of the conversation here is much
more important than the screen names of the posters.
Fibonacci8  (Fibsidas)       


Subj:  Re:Longspeak No.2
Date:  96-05-16 01:22:29 EDT
From:  Agni123

LONGSPEAK #2

Part 1 of 6

First, welcome to those who are new to this board.  I hope you will continue
to post.  Your postings are helpful.  Thank you for them.  It has been some
time since I posted, however I have kept up with reading the posts.   As a
newcomer I am trying to understand the purposes of some of them and trying to
decide if this is a board I want to continue on.  I liked the idea of having
an  “X-SYDA Fellowship” place as that is really what I am wanting ...
fellowship and giving and receiving support.  (I wasn’t able to respond to
the call for feedback about the idea for that folder awhile back,  but I
liked it and felt that people on the verge of leaving SYDA would have just
joined in when ready.)  So it is in the spirit of fellowship that I post
here.  I don’t like the “bashing,”  “tutoring” and “scrapping” that goes on
in some posts.  That feels too much like my SYDA experiences.  Abuse is what
I am leaving and is not what I want to continue to be associated with.   I
didn’t want to be part of it in SYDA and don’t want to here or anywhere else
either.  So, I simply don’t read some people’s posts ... like NaradaP’s.
     I do find the AOL censorship upsetting.  It brought back a lot of feelings I
have about SYDA’s censoring and authoritarian  tone.  In SYDA I had enough of
obedience to authority as opposed to individual liberty and I don’t want that
here.  Foolishly, I paid money to support SYDA’s immoral dictatorship.  I
don’t want to pay AOL to censor posts about SYDA.
     I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about it all.  I greatly value having a
place like this board to learn from and contribute to.  It is very important
to be able to write about the problems we experienced in SYDA.  It is
important not only for our own healing but also to possibly prevent other
innocent, trusting people from going through the disillusionment and traumas
that we did.
     I read somewhere that “in order to learn from the past one must forgive it.”
I’m working very hard on that in terms of my SYDA past.  As I do this I bear
in mind that “forgiving what happened in the past doesn’t mean that what
happened was O.K.”  Certainly the SYDA abuses were not  “O.K.”
     As I entered SYDA I was very aware that I, who loved and valued democracy,
was willingly entering a totally autocratic system ... a dictatorship.
Still, I did it.  I did because I convinced myself that this particular
dictatorship was a moral one.  I totally trusted SYDA.  Eventually, as I
found that my assumption was false, I left.  But cutting the SYDA umbilical
cord has been a difficult and long process.  It took, and continues to take,
a great deal of effort.
     During my SYDA years I learned a lot about spirituality that I value.   (My
regret was that I wasn’t able to learn about it in a non-abusive system.)   I
learned even more by leaving SYDA.
     One of the biggest lessons that I have learned is about human nature and how
gullible most people are.   “Gullible” may not be the word I want here.
Perhaps it is more correct to say that I have learned how hard people (myself
certainly included here) work to remain entrapped.  How easily we toss
common-sense aside and continue to pour our money, energy and trust into
something or someone even though somewhere deep inside we know that what we
are doing is foolish.  We remain involved in something that we know is
unethical in the vain hope that  “perhaps all will eventually (maybe even
magically) turn out for the best.”  For the most part it seems that most of
us are passive and lazy and even may want to be fooled.
     Subj:  Re:Longspeak No. 2
Date:  96-05-16 01:24:14 EDT
From:  Agni123

Part 2 of 6

     Con-artists in every walk of life know these aspects of human nature well
and make good livings off of them.  How easily we play into their hands and
how passively and long many of us remain in those hands.  Shamelessly I not
only let myself be conned by SYDA but I also conned myself !  Repeatedly I
put down my nagging conscience.  Even though I despised compromises I was
making with my own views of morality, I continued to make them.  If ever I
needed proof that I was truly human, I received it and gave it to myself in
SYDA.  In spite of my public “humility” I had a big ego and in spite of my
intelligence I was foolish to remain.  Both my ego and my foolishness were
fodder for the SYDA machine.  So was my bank account.  Financially I was
pretty “well-heeled” and it didn’t take long for that to be recognized and
rewarded with “special attention.”  I saw this happen with others also as
they received special considerations.  A big part of me didn’t like this ...
but ... part of me also did.
     Still, in and through SYDA gurus I thought that I was finding God.  I was
puzzled however, because to me God means “that which is perfect in which all
power and goodness unite.”   In SYDA I found plenty of evidence of “power”
but often it was not united with “goodness.”  Gradually I learned about
several SYDA guru’s well-documented and just plain bad, immoral, abusive
behaviors.  Over the years I watched these gurus frequently use  “Bleach and
Whitewash” as they tried to cover things up and rewrite the history of their

deeds.  For a long time I tried to convince myself that only Baba Muktananda
and young Nityananda (Gurumayi’s brother who succeeded with Gurumayi to
Baba’s “throne” ... later he was called Venkateshwar) were causing the
problems.   I said to myself,  “It’s the same old problem of too much
testosterone causing immorality” and I thanked God as those two eventually
left SYDA leadership.
     In other words, in spite of a life-long value of always being opposed to
abuse I mostly ignored what I heard about Baba’s and Nityananda’s sexual and
other abuses.  After all, I reasoned, it was Gurumayi whom I trusted and I
believed that she would put certainly put everything right and restore
morality to this spiritual path.  Surely she would emerge as the moral savior
of SYDA.  Sadly, this was not to be.  I now view her as a gifted but
emotionally damaged and spoiled woman who has seriously misused what God
gifted her with.  She is not  “perfection embodied” or “one who has attained
the highest” as I once believed and hoped.
     I came to SYDA at the end of Baba’s time.   When it came out how he had been
acting (sexually molesting girls, having “henchmen,” using bugs, etc.) I
thought it was probably true.  I always distrusted him, especially  sexually.
But I  told myself, “He’s gone now and now Gurumayi will make things right.”
Then when her brother (whom I also never trusted) also acted like a despot
and finally left SYDA (he continues to be a guru elsewhere) I again thought
the same things.  Now I felt that finally SYDA was entirely in Gurumayi’s
safe hands.  So ... again I stayed on.  But, I kept my eyes and ears open and
my brain was engaged (or so I tell myself) because I remembered and pondered
over everything that had happened in the past and over what I began to learn
about her too.
     Subj:  Re; Longspeak No. 2
Date:  96-05-16 01:25:51 EDT
From:  Agni123

Part 3 of 6

     Over recent years, and still now, I  spend a  tremendous amount of time
trying to understand what went wrong with me in SYDA.  By that I mean why I
remained involved in it  for so long and compromised my values so much.  I
have come to realize that I was practicing a lot of “magical thinking” by
continuing to hope and dream that everything would come right.  Also, I know
that I often doubted my own feelings and memories.  Did this or that REALLY
happen I would sometimes wonder?  (Does this sound familiar to you readers?)
Also, it was hard to give up on something in which I had invested myself so
deeply.  As I learn about “entrapment” (e.g., by reading articles about it in
psychology magazines) I can see that this is classical behavior for one who
is entrapped.  Some of you may also find it helpful to read about this topic.

     In other words, I really tried to con myself.  As I’ve said, it wasn’t just
that SYDA conned me, I also conned myself.   I take responsibility for my
part in this and learn from it.  Even when I learned about serious wrongdoing
in SYDA, I spent a lot of energy and time trying to convince myself that
everything really was O.K. and that I should (and morally “could”) stay in
SYDA and continue the dream.
     No doubt some of you know how this is.  Sometimes when I am sleeping and
have a dream that I am really enjoying I partially wake up and
semi-consciously try to get back into the dream  and continue it.  That is
how I was about SYDA.  There was so much about it that I found really
appealing and I wanted to stay with that and believe in it.
     Also, in some ways I worked to maintain what I can only describe as a kind
of  “voluntary blindness” (my term) about SYDA abuses.  I didn’t want to
fully see them.  A large part of me didn’t want to even partially see them.
I didn’t want them to be true because if they were I knew that I would have
to leave.  Now I thank God for the part of me that DID see what was happening
and didn’t deny it and therefore I finally left.
     I guess that what was happening in me was kind of a distortion of reality.
Perhaps it is like what happens in people who have anorexia nervosa.  They
say they can’t really see how dangerously thin they are.  Well, I guess I
couldn’t really see how I had become either and how dangerous my ways of
thinking were.
     Although I was TRYING to use denial it wasn’t completely working.  Still,
part of me was accepting things in SYDA that the pre-SYDA me would NEVER have
accepted.  I was part of it, participating in the mass-hysteria, the
mass-delusion, the mass-hypnosis that SYDA encourages.  I was in love with a
mirage.  I was following a mirage.  My dream-state was encouraged and
maintained by SYDA teachings that nothing is real, everything is a dream.  So
what if I was acting like a slave;  it wasn’t real was it?  And so what if
abuses occurred;  they weren’t real were they?  Also, it was easy to slip
into believing that “Any problems are due to my ego so it’s O.K. if I’m
abused.  I need and deserve it!”  Another SYDA teaching.
     In a way, SYDA became my obsession and for awhile after leaving it my
obsession became recovering from that obsession.  I guess this is natural,
even healthy for gradually I feel my “recovery obsession” lessening.  Full
recovery will take time, but I think I will have that time.  And if I die
before I’m recovered then so what, death will bring total recovery.  I am
being cured of idiocy and must be patient as I seem to have had this
condition for some time concerning SYDA.  Confessing this feels good!
     Subj:  Re:Longspeak No. 2
Date:  96-05-16 01:27:29 EDT
From:  Agni123

Part 4 of 6
     It has been a year and a half now since the New Yorker article was published
(11/94) and blew the whistle in major ways about SYDA.  For several years
before that I had been working on recovering from SYDA as I had mostly left
it by then.  I am deeply grateful for the New Yorker article.  It really was
the atom bomb that I needed as final confirmation of the reality of all of
the SYDA madness.  It blew me completely, finally and gratefully away from
SYDA.  (I encourage anyone who has not read this article to do so through
your local library or by contacting the magazine for reprints.  I also
encourage wide and generous distribution of reprints of the article and posts
from these boards.)  I still carry some SYDA shrapnel, but bit-by-bit it
works its way up to  my consciousness and bit-by-bit I remove it.  The pain
of retching it out is even acceptable to me because I know how much better I
feel once it is gone and the wounds heal.
     For a long time as I went through leaving SYDA I felt very ill.  I was
unwell indeed.  Physically I was ill and also I was deeply depressed .  It
was difficult to carry on my life during the period of transition.
Throughout the months that this lasted I wrote constantly about my SYDA
experiences ... the good and the bad. (I didn’t know about this board until
very recently.  Wish I had known about it during those months!)  My mind
continued to write about SYDA even when I wasn’t at the computer or writing
with pen and pad.  It was all just rolling out.  Often, when I would wake up
at night,  I became aware that my mind was writing, writing, writing about
SYDA.  Complete sentences, usually very insightful,  would just present
themselves.  Frequently I wrote them down before going back to sleep ... back
to my “sleep-writing.”  Some  people “sleep-walk;”  well I “sleep-write.”   I
believe it was my Self (my greater power) healing me.
      The volume of writing about SYDA that has flowed out of me has been
tremendous.  Some days, some nights, it continues.  But overall it is
diminishing a lot now.  I am glad that I am able to use writing as a major
tool for my recovery.  I wonder how non-writers manage without it.
     Often I think of the girls who were raped by  the powerful SYDA guru, Baba
(“Father”) Muktananda, and of the women (some swamis and at least one married
woman) who were sexually seduced/exploited  by his male successor, Gurumayi’s
brother.  To this list, it now appears, must be added the girls/women who
were used in the same way by George, Gurumayi’s powerful long-time side-kick,
for want of a more explicit word.  I feel so sorry for these girls and women
for they were not only abused mentally (as most people in SYDA seem to be)
but also physically/sexually.  And then some were further abused by being
told, apparently at times by Gurumayi, to shut up about what had happened to
them.
     Gradually more and more “Mommie Dearest” memoirs are emerging about
Gurumayi.  I seriously consider all of them.  I have read that she even told
molested young girls that what happened to them (i.e., their sexual abuse)
was their own fault and they were not to tell anyone about it, especially
their parents.   How terrible!  How cruel and cold!  Disgusting,  appalling
double standards exist in SYDA.  Apparently recent SYDA gurus think nothing
is wrong with acting in deceptive, two-faced ways.  Those gurus who were
expected to help, protect and morally serve their dependent, trusting
devotees, instead abuse, deceive and otherwise take advantage of them.  And
they do so repeatedly.  They seem to totally lack conscience as well as a
belief in the God that they speak of so easily.  Do they think they are
immortal and will escape God’s ultimate judgment?
Subj:  Re:Longspeak No. 2
Date:  96-05-16 01:28:44 EDT
From:  Agni123

Part 5 of 6

     I can never forget the feeble attempt to cover up some of Baba’s
molestations and rapes by calling them  “tantric” exercises that show a
guru’s attainment!   I wonder who thought up that one?  Yet another excuse
for male sexual domination and exploitation of  women.  I may have acted
pretty stupidly in my SYDA days but I was never stupid enough to fall for
cover ups like those that I witnessed over the years.  I’m sure many of you
remember how Baba’s guru was always called  by his name “Nityananda” until
young Nityananda’s (Gurumayi’s brother’s name while Baba’s male successor)
sexual exploits surfaced.  Thereafter we were told to refer to Baba’s guru as
“Bade Baba.”  This was another part of the rewriting of SYDA history in an
attempt to bury all recollections of young Nityananda.  I always took it as
evidence of  Muktananda’s lack of  any special powers when he gave Gurumayi’s
brother, then called Suresh, his guru’s name.  If ever I needed proof that
Muktananda was NOT omniscient, there was the proof.  If he had known how
young Nityananda was going to act while guru I doubt that Baba would have
named him as he did or indeed would have made him one of his successors.
Does anyone have any thoughts about this?  I guess on one level it could be
said that after all the “spiritual” son was just like his “spiritual” father
...  both took vows of celibacy and both repeatedly broke them in the tawdry,
abusive ways.  One is taught in SYDA to emulate one’s guru.  No thanks!
     Often I wonder about how Gurumayi was treated sexually by her Baba.  She has
said that she was sent off to him almost every weekend from the time that she
was a young girl, named Malti then.  She has also talked about how Baba would
come to her room, very inappropriate I always thought.  (And I remember a
woman friend of mine telling me that when she went for a “special audience”
with Baba in his room  he was wearing only his underwear.  Again, most
inappropriate.)   Always when I reflect on all of these things I come to the
sad conclusion that perhaps Gurumayi was also sexually molested/raped by Baba
and told not to tell.  Given Baba’s now apparently well documented history of
such behavior it seems quite a likely possibility to me.  If so, now Gurumayi
passes on her own wounding and dysfunction.  Now she is the one with total
power and she too uses it dysfunctionally, abusively as demonstrated in
testimony posted on this board.
     So, as it does until broken, the tragic cycle of abuse continues.  The
abused eventually becomes the abuser and the wheel of life rolls on, crushing
innocence out of the innocent.
     When so many SYDA scandals were published and exposed I expected an uproar
of  outrage to come from SYDA devotees.  I thought their indignation over the
reported, and otherwise known, abuses would roll out like an enormous tsunami
, seismic wave does after an earthquake!  I thought and hoped that SYDA would
be washed away by it.  I learned a major lesson about human beings when this
did not happen.  As I’ve said, through SYDA and since leaving it I have
learned MAJOR (and I might add, frightening) lessons about human behavior.
     I heard that Gurumayi referred to the New Yorker article as “a speck of
dust.”  I don’t think that what the article reported was a speck of dust.  To
me it seems more like a “mountain of SYDA garbage” that was revealed.
However, to my surprise, the reactions of  many of the SYDA devotees I know
was as if it were but a speck of dust.  Their denial and conformity staggered
me.  From their reactions I could truly and most clearly see the extent to
which they have been brainwashed.  While some left SYDA because of the
article it seems that most SYDA devotees have stayed in it ... at least for
awhile longer.    I am encouraged to notice that more and more of my former
SYDA friends  are slowly coming to their senses and quietly reducing their
SYDA involvement. Subj:  Re:Longspeak No. 2
Date:  96-05-16 01:30:10 EDT
From:  Agni123

Part 6 of 6

It can be difficult to admit that one was wrong, can’t it?  And leaving SYDA
can take time as I well know.
     By the way, I found it interesting that Gurumayi’s whereabouts were not
known  for a month or so when the article was first published.  Also, it
interested me that she chose to be in India,  not the USA,  during the months
prior to its publication.  During this time in India she sent out word for
the first time that people were not to  come to where she was ... except for
a few who were given special permission.  Very interesting!  Does this seem
like the behavior of an “innocent” or a “guilty” person to you?
     So, the tsunami wave of outrage that I expected did not happen.  Most
devotees were silent and refused to even discuss the article.  Many refused
to even read it.  Quite a number reverted to the ancient  practice of trying
to “kill the messenger” who brings bad news.  In this case they tried to do
the killing  with words by labeling the article as “yellow journalism” and
putting down the author and the New Yorker magazine.   All of these responses
seemed deeply fear-based to me.   Indeed,  several friends spoke to me about
their fears of  possibly losing SYDA if they read the article or thought too
much about it.  “I’m too afraid to read the article,” I was told by several
devotees.   These frightened responses clearly showed me what SYDA was REALLY
about,  i.e., the nature of the hold it REALLY had on many people.  Now I
clearly viewed SYDA as a damaging cult that weakened people.  This was a step
in my thinking that I had considered from time to time but I had long
resisted clearly making.   I could no longer deny it.       
     I came to realize how wrong I was to expect a tsunami wave of  rage and
anger directed at SYDA after the New Yorker article was published.  Mentally
healthy people would react in this way but not emotionally damaged and abused
people.   Abused people,  people accustomed to being abused, don’t  react to
abuses with united, public outrage.  Abuse has weakened them and made them
passive and accepting of abuse.  They may even think that they deserve to be
abused.  Indeed they may think that any abuse that occurred actually was
their fault.  On the whole this is true and I think summarizes fairly well
literature regarding abuse.   Abused people are apathetic, helpless, pathetic
and to be pitied.  Their apathy and acceptance can be quite frustrating to
people who are trying to help them leave abusive situations.  So can their
tendency to return again and again to such situations.    But, abused people
are isolated and withdrawn into their protective shells of denial and other
dysfunctions.  As individuals they tend to be too isolated to act effectively
together as a group.  Again I urge you to read about entrapment and how
people act who are trapped.
     So, the tsunami wave of indignation that I hoped for did not come.  Gurumayi
knew her people and how they would react.  She should.   The sand castle that
SYDA is has not yet washed away.  Instead, like grains of sand washing back
and forth with the tides, most SYDA devotees live on ... silently continuing
to be slowly worn down, worn away, ground down until all traces of themselves
as individuals vanish ... like dust.   Like beautiful dolphins trapped in a
net they will drown and the net they are caught in is SYDA.
     Subj:  Re:Longspeak No.2
Date:  96-05-16 01:30:58 EDT
From:  Agni123

Woops  -  didn't quite fit  -  Part 7!
But, hopefully I remember that if a spider web is moved at one point the
reverberation spreads throughout the entire web, eventually.  And, it seems

to me that the reverberations of the New Yorker article (and other damaging
information about SYDA that continues to come out in other ways)  ARE
spreading!   I enjoy imagining SYDA buildings and grounds abandoned, like the
ruins of  other groups that became decadent and people eventually left.
These SYDA places were built with donations of money and labor given by
devotees.  But, once built I notice that increasingly devotees were told that
they needed individual “permission” to visit them or stay in them or people
needed to agree to do so much more “slayva.”  Certainly this happened in
Ganeshpuri.  In my view this is yet another betrayal to add to the rapidly
growing list.
     Well, time to close.  What to say further except that an ingrown community
like SYDA is painful to endure,  just like an ingrown toenail.  But,
eventually it festers enough that it ruptures or has to be cut out.  I guess
that eventually SYDA will collapse.  What do you think?     

Subj:  Backsliding and vacuums 1/2
Date:  96-05-16 14:39:47 EDT
From:  Howie Sm

PART 1 OF 2

Dear AOL readers,

Thanks so much to Agni123, who has it together enough to say it straight, yet
softly.  (Which is more than I can do, that's for sure, especially the softly
part--as if you haven't noticed!).

Someone sent me an e-mail message today about being shocked upon seeing a
friend backslide into SYDAisms even after seeming to be well out of it; I've
decided to respond in the folder instead of privately.
******
I have been shocked many times this last decade in seeing people who claim to
have left SYDA either backslide into it, or into disturbingly parallel
thought-systems.  I have come to accept that certain people just backslide
periodically.

When pressures mount--including job stress, money woes, loneliness, fear of
death and disease, or just post-SYDA depression--people begin to crave for
the feeling of release they remember having from mental surrender in SYDA.
For ex-SYDA people who know too much, surrendering to thoughts and images of
Gurumayi is not longer viable.  But still, that craving for release is there,
ever the more so if pressures are high.  So, it would seem, certain peculiar
spiritual mindsets (metaphysically reductionist, magical thinking, ad hoc
ritualism)  tend to reestablish themselves, as a kind of response to the pain
of life everyone faces.

Rare is the individual who can sit in life's pain, experience it, work
through it, and channel it in productive ways that CORRESPOND TO ONE'S
GOD-GIVEN INDIVIDUALITY--instead of to some $5.95 spiritual manual, or some
demagogue's fiat.

All of us crave for momentary respite from the struggle of life, and that is
not a bad thing.  Further, I acknowledge that spiritual peace is no chimera,
and can be had through spiritual pursuits.  What I'm trying to say here is,
people who were formerly SYDA-addicted  have to cut themselves a lot of
slack, take it easy, and not feel that the vacuum they feel upon leaving SYDA
needs to be filled right away--especially filled right away with spiritual
busy-ness.

SEE PART 2
Subj:  Backsliding and vacuums 2/2
Date:  96-05-16 14:41:21 EDT
From:  Howie Sm

PART 2

Dear AOL readers,

Of course I'm not saying anything new here.  A number of AOL readers have
talked about sitting in the pain of the SYDA aftermath, working past it, and
finding spiritual health on the other side.  The alternative course of
prematurely running after another cubic-zirconium divine panacea is tragic,
and ludicrous (and misleading to other "seekers" who see this behavior).  And
to promptly salvage one's personal SYDA wreckage and build a lean-to
spiritual identity from it doesn't seem that good of an idea to me either.
In my view, getting a distance from SYDAisms and ALLOWING A VACUUM TO EXIST
for a while is a good idea.  Who knows, what fills that vacuum might be
fantastically better than what one is capable of imagining from a SYDA-weary
frame of mind!

An ex-SYDA fellowship--whether it takes place on this folder or elsewhere--is
a very good thing which works towards the end of spiritual peace, and away
from SYDA faux-spirituality.  We are all unlike one another, and nothing I
see indicates that we are tending towards a SYDAesque, clone-like similarity.
I'm not worried that ex-SYDA people will become a cult of think-alikes just
by talking to each other!  I am comfortable with being in your number, and
appreciate being included.  (I stand by this, even if you have plans underway
to have me legally restrained and prosecuted.)

As dissimilar as we are, we are bound together by our common knowledge of
SYDA and, to some extent, a common experience.  When it comes time to talk
SYDA--NO HOLDS BARRED--who's going to understand you or me except someone
else who was (or is) in it?

Help, help, oh no, help!  I am backsliding  @ %$ ^%& * + ==Z (0---- Welcome
to the SYDA meditation ashram.  My name is Howie and I am going to be your
host for tonight.  (Broad smile, bright eyes, head pans from right to left.)
Tonight we are going to be chanting and meditating, and I'll tell you more
about that later on.  But right now we are going to sing a beautiful hymn
that honors the divinity each of us has within.  It's called Jyota se jyota
se jyota se jyota se jy  . . . . . .


Subj:  To past and future delurkers
Date:  96-05-16 15:56:01 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Hi -

I want to thank Agni for a great post.  It continues to be healing for me to
hear others speak of what leaving syda has been like for them.  We've had a
lot of the same experiences and feelings, and it helps me to feel less alone
when I read a post like Agni's.

I also want to bring up something someone told me privately.  It was that
some people felt scared to delurk because they didn't want to get attacked by
Dissent and Howie.  

So, first, I want to thank Howie from the bottom of my heart for all the care
and wisdom and humor and feeling he has brought to this discussion.  I know
him to be an extremely generous, kind, intelligent and supportive human
being, who likes to vent in a rambunctious comic style now and then.  People
who think he's mean or scary just don't know him.

Secondly, as for me, I fly off the handle a bit when I feel put down or
condescended to by people who sound arrogant, preachy or superior.  I realize
that I can get impassioned or fierce or both in my tone.  I'm sorry if that
impedes some people from delurking.  

Part of what I think was so pernicious in syda was the value placed on
neutralizing aggression.  I think that one of the outcomes of valuing this
neutralization of aggression was that I and others became easier to exploit
and control.  As Agni stated so well, I and others allowed ourselves to be
abused because we felt like it was part of what would help us "transcend" and
"rise above" our "ego".  Intellectually and in the best of all possible yogic
worlds, that means one thing, but in the actual syda world of doing seva and
being part of the syda community, neutralizing, suppressing and denying anger
meant submission and it meant forsaking integrity. 

Anyway, not to get back into the whole discussion of anger thing again.  But
I do think that it is possible for most of us who have appeared on this board
so far, and many who hopefully will delurk in the future, to hash things out,
discuss different ideas, argue about them, struggle to make sense of what is
said . . . And in that way, to help all of us continue, as Howie has spoken
of in his last post, to broaden our repertoire of relating and communication
styles beyond the mind control constrictions of totalitarian, authoritarian
thought systems - syda or otherwise.

Am I making sense?

So please, keep delurking!   

Dissent222

Subj:  Message from Baba (Re:Agni)
Date:  96-05-16 21:29:36 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear AOL readers,

Agni123 says

<<<If ever I needed proof that Muktananda was NOT omniscient, there was the
proof.  If he had known how young Nityananda was going to act while guru I
doubt that Baba would have named him as he did or indeed would have made him
one of his successors.  Does anyone have any thoughts about this?>>>

I respond to Agni's final question here with some small, but interesting,
points taken from the Siddha Path Supplement titled "MESSAGE FROM BABA."  

Excerpt #1 from "MESSAGE FROM BABA"--
<<<I am entrusting the responsibilities of my seat to two swamis WHO HAVE
BECOME ONE WITH ME. . . . I will always see everyone equally, and SO WILL MY
SUCCESSORS>>> (emphasis mine.)

(Howie says) how much wronger could the old dude have been?

Excerpt #2 from "MESSAGE FROM BABA"--

<<<Even though I will be observing silence, I will travel around the world
three more times with my entourage. . . . I REPEAT that I will DEFINITELY
travel around the world three more times accompanied by my entourage.>>>
(emphasis mine.)

(Howie says) BABA MUKTANANDA SUDDENLY DIED A COUPLE OF MONTHS
LATER!

This guy was a few enchiladas short of a combination plate, if you ask me.
Subj:  Is SYDA collapsing?  (Re:Agni)
Date:  96-05-17 00:10:20 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Hello, yet again--

I can't resist one more small message in response to a question just raised:

Agni says

<<<Well, time to close.  What to say further except that an ingrown community
like SYDA is painful to endure,  just like an ingrown toenail.  But,
eventually it festers enough that it ruptures or has to be cut out.  I guess
that eventually SYDA will collapse.  What do you think?>>>   

What do I think about whether SYDA is collapsing or not?  I don't know what
to think.  In the dawn of SYDA, Bhagwan Nityananda's disciples laughed
constantly in disbelief at the American disciples going for Muktananda as a
guru.  Yet Muktananda went on and founded hundreds of meditation centers
worldwide.  And fifteen years ago the crowd that left when Stan Trout did
might have thought SYDA was soon to collapse.  Yet just this month a
satellite intensive was broadcast to many locations worldwide, at some $400 a
head.  Others thought the collapse would follow Muktananda's death.  Others
thought collapse would follow the ousting of Nityananda/Subhash from his role
as co-successor to the lineage.

For comparison, Scientology seems to have weathered the worst publicity
imaginable.  And, believe it or not, Aum Shinrikyo cult members have just
filed a legal motion which challenges the Japanese government's disbanding of
their "nerve-gas" cult.  (What nerve!)

People just hang on to these cults and cultish ideas for literally a lifetime
even after they have been totally, utterly discredited.  What do I think
about whether SYDA is collapsing or not?  It could go on indefinitely
actually, even if boss-woman's insanity progresses, even if legal problems
mount, even if bad publicity intensifies.   But it will go on in a disfigured
form--one that will wear Hindu trappings less and less easily.

Newcomers should be given information straight.  To tell them SYDA is a
destructive cult is not bashing Hinduism.  SYDA is the one bashing Hinduism,
giving it a bad name.  The inaccessibility of information about SYDA helps
support its undeserved longevity.  

How long will SYDA survive?  I don't know--perhaps forever!

Subj:  Delurking at Last
Date:  96-05-17 00:48:18 EDT
From:  Cker            

Hello, everyone.  I posted to the Losing My Religion folder, and was pointed
here.  I've been in the wings, devouring everything written on these boards
about SY for at least six months.  I could no longer ignore the truth crying
out for recognition and acknowledgment.  

So many posts I could react to, but Agni - boy oh boy - have you hit the nail
on the head.  I was not so much a victim as a willing accomplice to my own
silken and embroidered, sweet-smelling seduction.  While in SY, I learned
much about seeking the source of  truth within, and heeding it even at great
personal cost.  For that I am grateful.  How ironic that this gift has caused
me to shine that light of truth and conscience on the very path that helped
me reconnect with it.  How lucky that I am able to do it.  

Several years ago, I found I could not answer questions about this path and
its history  - to myself or others - and still keep the "family secrets."  I
no longer believed the "tutored truth" but "acted as if," hoping this "kriya
of doubt" would pass.  But I could no longer ignore the fact that sincere
questions had become taboo, labeled as disloyalty to the path and the
teacher.  The carefully crafter answers needed to be "discreetly" offered to
the faithful and only divulged when one's "understanding" was mature.
Certainly, newcomers could not be expected to have developed sufficient
"discrimination" to handle even the "varnished truth." 

This can only mean that there is something that needs hiding.  Knowing that
is all one needs to recognize falsehood.  My conscience needs no proof, no
names, no dates, no gory details.   

The Foundation, the Guru, may say that they will not dignify the accusations
by legal action or protests of innocence, but they certainly have no qualms
about applying the copyright laws. If the New Yorker article is not true, it
is most certainly libelous.  Why the hesitation to "take refuge" in *that*
section of the legal code?

Thank you, all, for waiting for me until my "understanding" had "matured."

Seeker

Subj:  SYDA-loka is a sure thing
Date:  96-05-17 08:41:49 EDT
From:  Howie Sm        

Dear AOL readers,

Most of us would agree that life is about taking risks.  I'm all for risks.
SYDA is the opposite--it is about "a sure thing."

I think the appeal of SYDA and yogic practices is they remove all ambiguity
from life.  The odds appear to be completely stacked in your favor.  You've
got the guru's grace, you've got your practices--you've got all bases
covered.  What is lobotomized here is the deep-level, human need to take
risks, to move into the sheer unknown.  While there is a need to put a light
into the darkness, there is also the profound need to venture out into
darkness, to seek out the unknown--in social terms, to expand in the real
world.  

SYDA is not about moving into darkness.  There was no place for foolhardy
explorers in SYDA.  Everything had its place.  Even darkness had a defined
place!  All this is ironic, for the appeal of the Baba legend was precisely
in that he supposedly was a reckless explorer of inner space.  It always
seemed that if we really wanted to be like the Muktananda legend, the first
thing to do would be to resign from SYDA and cut an original, iconoclastic
path.  No one seemed to talk about that irony in SYDA.  

The SYDA point is, "the guru does all the painful sadhana, so the disciples
don't have to."  WHAT GARBAGE!  I WANT TO LIVE MY OWN LIFE, THANK YOU,
NOT
THE CLIFF'S NOTES VERSION OF SOME STRANGER'S LIFE, A STRANGER WHO
HAPPENS TO
BE A CREEP!  This disciplic life in which we "avoid the harsh experiences and
pitfalls that the guru had to endure" is so insane to me.  My God, the whole
thrill of life, for me, comes from the sheer adrenalin of trying to pull
something off of my own making, of trying to do that trapeze stunt, of
realizing that there is no guarantee that it'll come off.  THE THRILL OF NOT
KNOWING, YET TRYING!  I get very exercised on this topic, because to me the
absence of ambiguity is what is execrable about any well-formed, systematic
spiritual "path." 

Sure, a certain amount of stress goes with the Howie trapeze act--I've done
my share of biting my nails to the elbow.  What they hey!  They can only kill
you once!  Maybe in an inhospitable third-world environment where there are
no opportunities, a placid Hindu escapism is okay--ACTUALLY, NO!  That is
precisely where you need really energetic bridge-builders and ambitious
risk-takers.

I'm beginning to think that at the bottom of all risk-taking is a kind of
trust in something innate.  It seems that the only way real self-trust can be
built up is if one lives WITHOUT A NET.  Living with a spiritual safety net
weakens self-confidence, perhaps, because on some level one knows that one is
a hamster in a cage. I don't think manufactured cult crises cut it as a
substitute for real life interactions, real life growth, real life struggle,
real life fulfillment.  

Subj:  Replies to Howie
Date:  96-05-17 13:35:40 EDT
From:  Fibonacci8      


<<  This disciplic life in which we "avoid the harsh experiences 
      and pitfalls that the guru had to endure" is so insane to me.  >>

We didn't avoid any harsh experiences and pitfalls.  We all fell into the big
pit and we have been climbing out by our fingernails.  It was the real pit of
real life "sadhana", not the pits in the stories of a hindu swami.  Climbing
out of those pits, if you still believe those stories, had big payoffs for
him.  Climbing out of the big pit we fell into will undoubtedly have big
payoffs for us -- not on the storybook path they taught us about so well, but
on the real path of our own human adventure.  We paid a big price to get
ourselves into that pit.  I think we will get a big payoff in real human
growth once we have gotten clear of  it and dusted ourselves off.  This is
what I believe.  But, oh, the cost. 

<<  Living with a spiritual safety net weakens self-confidence, 
      perhaps, because on some level one knows that one is a 
      hamster in a cage.  >>

Maybe recognizing that there is no safety net leads us to take small well
chosen steps, not the giant leaps across rivers and canyons we once fancied
ourselves making in the imaginary landscape of the syda adventure.  I didn't
come to syda because I wanted to be a disciple or see blue light everywhere.
I came because of questions, turmoil, and aspirations in my own life.
Somehow, once I swallowed the hook, I accepted the idea that my own life was
irrelevant.  Taking the advice of the wise, I severed most of my own real
concerns and aspirations and grafted on the storybook map to a place I didn't
really understand and never intended to go.  Small steps are okay for me
right now, small _real_ steps in my real life. 

Subj:  Thanks and hopes
Date:  96-05-17 14:37:30 EDT
From:  Agni123         

First, welcome CKER and congratulations on “delurking at last”.  Thanks for
your comments regarding my Longspeak #2.  I enjoyed the excellent points you
made in your post and your wonderful insights.  Like you, SYDA actually
helped me developed my discrimination and like you, eventually I found I had
to use it about SYDA as well as about everything else.  And, of course using
it to examine SYDA meant I needed to leave SYDA.  And thanks to JJanetH2,
Dissent222 and Howie Sm for your messages.  All are appreciated.  Yes, Howie
I remember Baba saying how he would continue to make world tours and then he
died.  

LarryOm, I miss you and am a bit worried about you.  Hope you haven’t been
driven away.  I find your posts very helpful and look forward to more of
them.  I do not understand why so much heat was recently directed at you.  

Back to what we are going through, all of us, in dealing with our SYDA
disappointments and leaving it.  I don’t remember if I have written this
before but a statement that has long helped me in dealing with life crises is
“breakdown leads to breakthrough.”  Sorry I do not recall who wrote this.
The author is well known in the field of psychiatry/psychology.  But I have
found this to be absolutely true in my life and once again I am finding it
true in coming through the crisis of leaving SYDA.  Somehow in the past, when
it “seemed” that my life was rupturing or dead-ending I have found that
ultimately it was moving in a stronger, healthier and deeper direction.  This
is so true for me now as I am coming through the process of leaving SYDA.  I
know that others of you are having similar experiences.  It is always good to
hear about them.  

By the way, I just found the article on entrapment that was very helpful for
me to read.  I will post soon some excerpts from it.  Also, I want to post
soon my version of a “dream” about amrit that sprang forth after I read
Fibs’s brilliant and original amrit dream.  Hope you don’t mind the take off
Fibs but yours was such fun and so uplifting.  I hope mine might also be.  

Thanks to all for continuing to post.

Agni
 
Subj:  To Larryom
Date:  96-05-17 16:22:52 EDT
From:  Violet1884      

Hi Larry Om:

I have missed seeing posts from you over the last few days.  Hope you are OK.
Thanks for your nice message to me.  You asked that I tell you of the things
that I disagree with you about.  Well, here goes.  

The main thing I disagree with you about is regarding debate.  It is not that
I disagree with debate as such.  I rather like it at certain times and in
certain places.  The time may well come that I want to participate in debate
here.  However, at the moment I am more interested in “support”.  That was
why I voted for the “Fellowship” folder that Fibs proposed.  I know this
folder is labeled “debate” but I guess I am currently using it for support
and it seems like there are other people here using it that way too.  

Now, there is a difference for me, between support and the kind of sappy
brained mindless communication we had in SYDA so don’t think I am advocating
for that kind of cope-out in relationships (whether they be in cyberspace or
real time).  Support for me is listening to the experiences of others with
attention and intelligence.  It makes more sense to me to listen and not to
comment with any kind of judgment but to respond with understanding and
expression of my own experience.  This way I can both give and receive
affirmation for the things I and others are going through.  So you might of
noticed that in my posts I tend to say “this is my experience” rather than
“you are wrong”.  This is the process of healing from emotional wounds and
that is what I am working on at the moment.

Debate on the other hand is a more intellectual process.  It has its place
and I enjoy it.  Even here I enjoy reading the debate that goes on among
others, it is just not what I want to participate in AT TIME MOMENT.  You on
the other hand seem to get something from that and that is fine.  Debate and
support are both legitimate processes but they are not the same process.
There is room for them both on this board and it is the support process that
I am primarily interested in at the moment.  

Anger, of course is another thing. I do have anger, but it is directed toward
SYDA and Gurumayi and at some times continuing SDYA devotees who will not get
there heads out of the sand and who will not allow me the expression of my
own truth.  It makes me mad when “they” want to gush on and on about the
“glories” of SYDA but refuse to acknowledge my truth about the same process.
However, we have been through all that before.  

I do draw the line when it comes to some strongly held ethical stands.  For
example I did speak out when the vegetarianism issue rose up here.  Also I
will fearlessly speak out against the abuses of SYDA and support with my
voice and my fingers those who were abused.  As I think I said I my last post
to you, abuse is where I draw the line.  I am judgmental about that and I
will tell you or anyone else they are wrong if it is abuse they are
advocating.  

Anyway, there it is Larry.  I hope some of this makes sense.  

Thanks for being here  -  I hope to hear from you again soon. 

Violet

Subj:  Welcom CKER
Date:  96-05-17 16:24:14 EDT
From:  Violet1884      

Welcome, CKER.  I am glad you found your way here.  We are a growing number.
I understand that it took you a while to make a posting here.  I too read the
posts ravenously for a while before I posted.  It took a while to be ready.
I was leaving SYDA for a long time without really acknowledging it to others,
and to some extent even to myself.  Coming out, so to speak on this board,
was a major leap forward in the process of becoming my own person again.  I
think for a long time I thought that maybe I would wake up one day and
everything would be OK  -  it would all be again like it was in my honeymoon
days in SYDA.  Maybe I thought that Gurumayi would say something or do
something that would successfully negate all the allegations and evidence of
abuse and I could “believe” again.  This was part of the magical thinking
that I had developed over the years in SYDA.  Of course clearing SYDA’s name
is not possible.  I know that now.  There is no way to successfully whitewash
all that we know to be true.  
     
I understand what you say about being an “accomplice to your own seduction”.
I was also.  No-one dragged me kicking and screaming into intensive after
intensive.  No-one physically took my wallet and made me spend all those
hundreds if not thousands of dollars in the bookstore.  No-one forged my
signature on all those checks given in the darshan line.  No-one bound me
with chains and made me work at often ridiculous tasks of seva to the point
of illness.  AND at the same time the subtle pressure was as strong as any
physical restraints or control.  

I do not think we need to feel responsible for our own seduction.  We do not
need to feel that it was our own fault.  Seduction is very powerful and
convincing.  That is what seduction is all about.  In seduction the victim
always feels responsible  -  that is a part of the process.  Then when the
victim starts to see the truth and starts to TELL the truth the seductress
says, oh so sweetly, “oh but look how good I was to you  -  how can you say
such bad things about me  -  I only wanted the best for you  -  I was willing
to give everything to you.”   TOS!!  

However, I DO take responsibility for the fact that I did not loose all my
own discrimination.  I DID see abuses subtle and not so subtle.  I DID think
about them and eventually recognized them for what they were.  I did read the
material that came out about SYDA and I did consider it with my own
intelligence and I did reject the system that perpetrated such abusive and
unethical activities.  Now, as result of rejecting SYDA, I am becoming
clearer in my mind, stronger in my personality and less abrasive in my
communication.  (As I write that I realize those three things are related.
As one’s mind gets clearer one’s personality does get stronger.  And with a
strong and healthy personality one does not have to communicate in abrasive
ways.  I am rather pleased now that I did not leave all of my ego at the door
with my shoes as we were instructed.  I kept some ego strength through all
the seduction and it is that ego strength that is enabling me to become my
own person again.  Thank God for that!)

See next post ....

Subj:  Welcome to CKER  part 2
Date:  96-05-17 16:25:04 EDT
From:  Violet1884      

So now, I am not interested in ever finding another Guru or even becoming
committed to another organized “spiritual path”.  I think the dangers we
become aware of in SYDA can happen in any organization where one personality
takes on inappropriate and excessive power.  Power that has no associated
checks and balances.  Throughout all my years in SYDA I was aware of the
tremendous unbalance in the power structure and the potential dangers that
held.  For a long time I imagined that it was OK in SYDA because this was a
“true” path and this was a “true” Guru.  Not so  -  I know that now.  So I do
not want to ever again get embroiled in such a process.  I am interested in
learning from others including some spiritual teachers perhaps but NEVER as a
devotee and never to become identified with a teacher or a group.  I hope
that I have learned from this experience to keep my own power to myself.
Recently I read an interesting quote from Thomas Moore that may be useful
here. 

"A religious or spiritual authority stands in a dangerous position, full of
traps.  It is in the nature of the spiritual life to think of hierarchies of
authority, to imagine meanings in terms of truth, and to invest one person or
group of persons with extraordinary influence.  Religious leaders require
unusual wisdom not to become intoxicated with power and to lord it over their
followers.  

Religious authorities need our own self-governance in spiritual matters.  If
we "subjects" are making intelligent decisions and educating ourselves, then
the leader can offer focus, direction and structure.  But the moment we give
to much power to our leaders, we become the victims and they become the
tormentors.  The religious spirit which needs vibrant external structures,
succumbs to empty institutional forms, and rules replace wisdom."

Again, welcome CKER.  I look forward to more posts from you. 

Thanks for being here. 

Violet

Subj:  Agni's Amrit Dream 1 of 3 
Date:  96-05-17 17:27:44 EDT
From:  Agni123         

Part 1

IN THE AMRIT 

Fibs, your fabulous original “Amrit dream” prompted this one of mine.  Thanks
for the  idea.  Enjoy. 

(The dream begins .....)

MONKEY:    Hi, Bliss Bunny, I haven’t seen you for a long time.  Where have
you been?

BLISS BUNNY:    Hi, Monkey.  Gee it’s great  to see you. (Hugs.  Hugs.)
Well, I guess I was a ‘bad girl’ because  I was sent to do seva in the
basement of Guruchump.  I’ve been having to cut pictures of  the guru’s
brother out of old  Dakshina Magazines.  At first I felt like I was being
made to alter history somehow.  But now I can see it is an opportunity for me
to really get my old ego in line.  There’s nothing like a few weeks in a
basement doing what I’ve been doing to help with that.  I feel so blessed.

MONKEY:    That’s great!  Everything’s great isn’t it? (Grins a dizzy smile.)
Hey, look who’s here.  It’s Lolipop, back from India.  Hi, Lolipop.

LOLLIPOP (breathless):    Wow!  It’s great to see you guys.  (Yawn)  I think
I feel tired, but I’m not sure.  I’ve been up all night for several weeks now
doing slava.

BLISS BUNNY:    You mean you’ve been back several weeks and we haven’t even
seen you???

LOLLIPOP:    Ya.  Actually I’m not even supposed to be in Amrit now but when
I think I feel tired, I have to get something to eat to keep going.  I know I
shouldn’t eat so much.  The other day in darshan I was really busted for
being so fat.  So, I’m just hoping for grace to not eat too much.

MONKEY:    What’s your slava?  

LOLLIPOP:    I get to vacuum the lobby floor all night long.  Isn’t that
great?

MONKEY and BLISS BUNNY (in unison):    Wow!  Lucky you!  I’ve seen the guru
walk on that carpet a couple of times.  Wow!

Subj:  Agni's Amrit Dream 2 of 3
Date:  96-05-17 17:28:34 EDT
From:  Agni123         

Part 2


LOLLIPOP:    Ya, I know.  It’s great.  It’s just great.  (Tired smile.)  I
thought I was getting too tired  (yawn)  because it’s hard to stay away with
only a couple of hours of sleep every now and then.  I even forgot my Mom’s
birthday.  In fact, I thought I was exhausted  (yawn), but my slava manager
set me straight and told me  I wasn’t even mildly tired.  It’s just my ego
that’s gotten in my way I was told.  Isn’t it great to be given such an
understanding?  I should have known that by now, but I didn’t really KNOW it.
I mean all of my misunderstandings come from my own ego.  You know what I
mean?

MONKEY:    Ya.  That’s great, Lollipop.  I’m so happy for you.  I hope you
will be given the opportunity do that slava for a really long time.  You look
really radiant!   Wow, you’re burning.  Boy, these egos really can get in the
way.  I know when I broke my hand busting rocks for the bank by the new
artificial lake I thought I couldn’t drum that night.  But the music
supervisor told me it was just ego and I should drum anyway.  I sure had
fooled myself by thinking I knew how I felt.   I’m learning that I don’t
really know anything about how I feel.  Certainly not about my own feelings.

BLISS BUNNY:   I agree.  It really helps me a lot when the M.C.’s tell us all
ahead of a video or something just how we are going to feel about it.   Like
I’ve heard that another intensive is coming up and the M.C. said it is a real
opportunity to give $500 for a couple of  days.  The M.C. said it will be
‘really great’ and ‘it’s going to be the most special one ever!’  So, now I
know that it will be.  Also, we’ve been told that a person can never take
enough intensives.  We should all always take as many as  we are given the
opportunity to take.

MONKEY:    Aren’t we all really lucky?  I feel like we are all shimmering
right now.  Hey, have you great sadhunks heard the latest?  We’re all going
to be given the opportunity to give money to pay for a trip the guru wants to
take around the world. 

BLISS BUNNY:   Wow!   Great!   I’m really going to go for it this time.    I
can see that I’ve been selfish and holding back to try to keep a little bit
in my bank account.  I don’t think I’ve been giving enough because I’m just
not getting ‘those smiles’ in the darshan line lately.  I’m going to give my
life savings this time and watch for the beam.  (imploringly)  Come on you
guys, go for it with me!  We’ll be taken care of.  Or else, (slight doubt in
voice) we can all starve together.  (Sudden extreme cheerfulness) But that
won’t happen.  I was just kidding about that.  You know I was.

MONKEY AND LOLLIPOP (in unison):   Ya, we will give it all!  We will!  Wow!
What an opportunity!  (Tears streaming down faces)



Subj:  Agni's Amrit Dream 3 of 3
Date:  96-05-17 17:29:16 EDT
From:  Agni123         

Part 3

BLISS BUNNY:   I know.  We haven’t been given this opportunity for a couple
of weeks now.   The last opportunity we were given was to donate all our
money  to get another new throne for the guru.

LOLLIPOP:   Ya.  Wasn’t that great?  How many thrones do you think the guru
has now?

MONKEY:   I don’t know.  But I do know that the old thrones are stored in
that big building where the guru’s private swimming pool is.

BLISS BUNNY:    Wow.  That’s great!  (groan)  Oh, no!  Let’s scatter.  Here
comes Doubtie.  I can’t stand to be around him.  He always makes me think
that I can think for myself or something like that.  I mean, can you imagine
that?  ‘Bad company’ in my book!

(All scurry hurriedly out of Amrit and walk down a path.)

BLISS BUNNY:   Well, I’m off to the Bookstore.

LOLLIPOP:  What for?

BLISS BUNNY:  Haven’t you heard?  We are all suppose to buy crystal malas.
This will be my tenth mala.  Isn’t that great?  I think the crystal will look
really great with the white clothes that we are all suppose to buy in the
Bookstore.  I can’t get mine fast enough.  I don’t want to stick out like a
sore thumb by wearing these old clothes that I got in Manhattan on Fifth
Avenue last month.  Come on, you guys.  Let’s all go to the Bookstore!

MONKEY:   Sure!  Sounds great to me!  I want to set up a puja on my bicycle
anyway so I need to go there too.  Besides, I hate to say it actually, but I
don’t have my new crystal mala or white clothes yet either.

LOLLIPOP:   (laughs mockingly)  Shame, shame on you!  Come on, let’s run to
the Bookstore.  Last one there’s a tired old wallah!!

(All run off on Birkenstock sandled feet, shawls flying in the breeze.)
Wheeeeeee!         


  
    
Subj:  Recovering...
Date:  96-05-18 10:05:15 EDT
From:  Bob1258487

Maybe it would be better if we thought of recovering from SYDA as getting
over a disease or an addiction rather than as an attempt to integrate a
philosophy into our lives.

Subj:  Agni123's Amrit Dream
Date:  96-05-18 13:52:39 EDT
From:  Howie Sm

Dear Agni123,

Given my well-known weakness for SYDA humor, you can imagine how much I loved
your one-act farce!  In a way, your farce said it all.  (Please write another
with a male part for me . . .)

You have managed to write something that I found simultaneously devastating
and entertaining.  It was light and engaging, yet also brutal and relentless.
As one message-writer to another, tell me:  how did you do that?  Quite
virtuosic.

Thanks for writing it.  With it, you said a lot.

Subj:  Violet's msg re
seduction 1/2
Date:  96-05-18 13:54:25 EDT
From:  Howie Sm

PART 1 OF 2

Dear Violet,

You say in response to Cker's post

<<<I understand what you say about being an accomplice to your own seduction.
I was also.>>>

and then go on to say

<<<I do not think we need to feel responsible for our own seduction.  We do
not need to feel that it was our own fault.  Seduction is very powerful and
convincing.  That is what seduction is all about.  In seduction the victim
always feels responsible  -  that is a part of the process.  Then when the
victim starts to see the truth and starts to TELL the truth the seductress
says, oh so sweetly, oh but look how good I was to you  -  how can you say
such bad things about me!>>>

I feel the same way as you do on this issue of responsibility.  Let's not
blame the victim.  1) BLAMING THE VICTIM and 2) MISPLACED GRATITUDE are
habits of thought that turn critiques of SYDA into SYDA-like mixed
messages--in my opinion.  Mixed messages, as we know too well, are the fuel
that keeps the organization running, muddies the waters, and keeps newcomers
from seeing straight to the heart of the situation.

Your comments on seduction caused me to muse as follows:

SEE PART 2

Subj:  Violet's msg - seduction 2/2
Date:  96-05-18 13:56:35 EDT
From:  Howie Sm

PART 2

Dear AOL readers,

About the SYDA seduction:  certain people would go to an intro program and
leave saying "what's the big deal."  These people seemed immune.  Others
would come in and get TOTALLY HOOKED.  What is it that makes some people get
hooked? There probably is no simple answer.   But I, like others here, do
think it is wrong to lay the responsibility entirely on the disciples.  The
mind control in SYDA, combined with the capacity of the SYDA situation to
somehow engender MIND-BOGGLING, INEXPLICABLE EXPERIENCES in certain people,
overwhelmed the best of us. Many who haven't been through SYDA cannot
understand its seductive power--but I trust all you ex-SYDA people know
exactly what I'm saying without me having to go on about it.

Put simply, SYDA caused a lot of us to "snap."  It blew our minds.  It
overwhelmed our emotions.  And more.  And mixtures of all these.  And then it
retrained our minds and channeled our will.  It was like stepping into an
incredible, incredible trap.  And in all of our idealism and passion, we
listened to all those scriptures and edited testimonials.  No doubt about it,
SYDA is a beautifully orchestrated con, with every bell and whistle one might
imagine.  Yes, we share a measure of responsibility, and I know that each of
us are presently working on fixing our "tragic flaws."  But there is no
question in my mind that SYDA IS A DESTRUCTIVE CULT.  I don't blame myself
for that!  The creation of a destructive, entrapping, misleading cult was not
my doing!

In SYDA people are seduced--and then brainwashed--without being overtly
coerced (at least at first).  And when you add in the intense fugue states
induced by the interaction of practices with humans' as-yet-unexplained
psychic propensities, you have a recipe for holy disaster.


Subj:  Welcome
Date:  96-05-18 15:56:08 EDT
From:  BabaRumRai

Your own Baba Rum Raisin here.

It is very gratifying to see so many new faces. Many people are free of old
gurus and ready for a new one. You are ready for a true "Experience." The
people of the west are so gullib.....er..receptive. I will soon visit in your
kinder and gentler country as I spread my peace around the world. We will be
establishing our first Ashram in Las Vegas so that people will no longer have
to throw their money away on gambling. Many will benefit from my darshan. No
longer will people commit the sin of gambling. My darshan basket is a sure
thing. Put money in and Laksmi will visit your birthday cake. This has all
been predicted in the scriptures. My own Bhagavan Tree Swami Sagalu has made

it possible. As he once said before his maha samadhi, SCREECH SCREECH WIRRRR
FZZZZZZZZZ FZZZZZZZZZ.................
PLEASE PARDON THE BROADCAST INTERRUPTION we seem to have lost the satellite
hookup. Remember the Sri Baba Rum Raisin tenets. Give All to Receive All.
See God in My Pocket.  Send in a Canary First.  Fur is
Murder........................To Clean.

Subj:  Re:Is SYDA collapsing?
Date:  96-05-18 16:07:58 EDT
From:  MDSNMAN

There are several reasons that organizations like SYDA go on and on and on.
(1)  The gullibility and stupidity of people when it comes to matters of
religion, science etc. appears as infinite as the mysteries which these cult
movements and their leaders attempt to explain.  Superstition, magical
thinking, pseudoscience are rampant in our society and around the world.  Ten
percent of people in this country believe they may have been abducted by
UFOs,  25% think we faked the landing on the moon, and 45% believe in
astrology.  What fertile ground for the guru want-to-be.  (2)  What has
happened in the past gets covered up by the fanatics and history is rewritten
continuously for the new converts.  Photos and books are burned and critics
are silenced through fear and outright intimidation  (Shridevi, Dinga, Eddie,
Nikilananda).  How many of the devotees sitting for their first intensive
have any idea that GM even has a brother, much less that he was once the
chosen successor, who like his predecessor couldn't keep it in his pants? The
answer is very few.  (3)  There is a real tendency among ex-devotee insiders
(myself included) to want to forget the past and just get on with their
lives.  We wake up, move out, rediscover and go about creating real lives for
ourselves and our families.  That is great.  Its important.  But in the
meantime, valuable history and information can be lost.

We can do little about GM and her fanatics or about the gullibility thing,
but we can fight the tendency to   just leave without some attempt to pass on
what we know about SYDA.  That is why this forum is so valuable (and so
threatening to GM).  And that is why I want to urge people to delurk and
speak out.  I am one of those who has had to fight the tendency to want to
erase SYDA from my brain  --  mostly from embarassment, I guess.  But we
would all have benefited had more information been made available to us from
the many people who have left over the years (managers, swamis, trustees,
etc).  So, I think we owe it to others now to tell what we know and do what
we can to expose the corruption and lies at the heart of SYDA.

Personally, there is another reason to speak out:  I spent 15 years
supporting the expansion of SYDA in direct ways (talks, mandalis,
programming) and indirect ways (financial etc.)  I am not proud of this.  I
feel very badly that my work over the years in support of SYDA has
contributed to its continuation, and I feel even worse that in so doing I
have added to the pain and suffering that others will no doubt experience in
their lives as a result of their involvement.  I can't undo the past, but I
feel a whole lot better knowing that I/we are reaching a few folks (think
about the children) before GM and her stormtroopers.  Don't you?

Subj:  SYDAduction, 1 of 2
Date:  96-05-18 17:14:21 EDT
From:  Cker            

Regarding the critique of the "accomplice to my own seduction" remark.  My
first reaction was to protest, "No, no, really!  I *knew* what I was doing!"
Whew!  The very slick production that is SY is so pervasive.  The programming
department is so aptly named!  It's just amazing to me that they opening
refer to it as such.  But there was a point, long before I left, when I knew
something was rotten in the state of ... the guru, but I stayed and stayed.

The seeds of my doubt date from the Nityananda ouster.  At the time I
believed the (what I now understand as) propaganda that his unseating only
proved the purity of the lineage.  This *reinforced* my commitment for a
time.  The New Yorker article accelerated my deprogramming. Other people's
attempts to rationalize what they had read began to amaze and shock me.
They'd say that only one or two aspects (the sexual or physical abuse, or the
money, or the family squabbles) bothered them, and that they were using this
as a guidepost, a springboard, a divine hint pointing toward their *real*
samskaras (repressed issues of abuse, irresponsibility with money, lack of
forgiveness toward those who had trespassed against them).  I compromised my
integrity by not stating what I thought:  EVERYTHING about that article
bothered me.  And yet I stayed.

My discomfort became a too-strong-to-ignore reaction to the 45-minute
commercials in the middle of evening programs (to which I honestly came
expecting to immerse myself in a sea of chanting and uplifting words, and to
meditate).  But I stayed and stayed.  It was not until I felt myself squirm
inwardly when I brought someone to the ashram and they had to sit through the
advertising. Clio material, every minute of it.  I still stayed, another few
years, in fact.

I tutored and submitted to tutoring to improve my "understanding" to no
avail. I revealed that I was having a problem reconciling this only once, and
very obliquely, to the center leader.  The reaction was clear, unconditional,
and reflexive contempt at even the suggestion of doubt.  And I already knew
the programmed answers, anyway.  It became a matter of whether I was finally
willing to admit to myself that the programmed answers were part of a
conspiracy of silence. (continued)

Subj:  SYDAduction, 2 of 2
Date:  96-05-18 17:25:40 EDT
From:  Cker            

As I was saying...

Virtually up to last week's satsang at our center - I forced my doubts into
the background.  Although I had reached a point where I was unable to
proselytize for SY, I remained willing to spend my own money and vacation
time on something I no longer believed in, so that no one would know what a
fool I knew myself to be.  This went on for quite some time.  People looked
up to me as an "oldtimer."  I had "status"!  I had invested so much in books
and pictures and courses and talismans that I wouldn't wear in public on a
bet, but I kept doing it out of fear that *I* would be exposed as the fraud.
(By the way, if you're on the fence, do you, too, hide the amount of money
you spend on SY from you spouse?)  My commitment had waivered. I was a
"fallen" one.  How could I let anyone know that I wasn't even meditating?!
All this was something I could not admit until I was ready to leave. I am
convinced that this fear is one of the most powerful mechanisms at work in
SY.

The amazing thing is, no one in my family or my unSY circle thinks I'm
foolish for having the courage to admit the truth to myself, and not one has
chastized me for not leaving sooner.  Some have said, "Why didn't you tell me
what you were going through?" and "I'm so glad you were finally able to come
to this (for lack of a better word) understanding on your own.  I knew you'd
think I was trying to trash something you loved."  (My husband thought I had
found an online lover, when all was doing was reading these boards. Needless
to say, he was pretty relieved!) 

I still feel a powerful need to remain anonymous, so I am not "all the way
out" yet.  (I know, I should give myself a break.  It's been only a few
days....)  I believe that going completely public would give me more
credibility.  There are a good number of people who would recognize me given
enough information, even though I'm small potatoes, SYDA-wise.  But I don't
know the extent to which SYDA is punishing those who speak out.  There were
other things I didn't know once....

So, maybe I was not a willing accomplice in the seduction at the beginning,
but I continued the affair long after I knew it could have ended.  I urge
those reading who know the truth in their heart of hearts, the truth you
feel, not the truth you think you need to prove, to examine your support for
this path.  

Seeker

Subj:  inner and outer/1 OF 2
Date:  96-05-19 07:07:41 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

Part 1 of 2

Dear MDSNMAN and AOL readers,

I was really moved by your post.  You have expressed very fully and deeply
why this forum is important.  I was also going to disappear and get on with
my life and put the whole thing behind me.  But something clicked about 7
months after I broke off from syda, and I realized I was fooling myself if I
thought I could just bury the whole thing and move on. 

I AM moving on in great ways (education, career, family), but I am also more
deeply and more broadly understanding what happened, and that is enriching my
life, allowing me to grow  for real.  I can see now the growth I thought
happened to me in syda was synthetic.   A major piece of that understanding
has been gained here on this forum.  Reading people's posts, like yours,
feels like getting ever-sharper focus on the situation, like getting a
clearer and clearer picture.  That's how I've been rebuilding my self-esteem
- by fighting the pull  of confusion, fuzzy thinking, uncertainty, fear of
the unknown.  All that can pull me into numbness, and I don't want it.

People who were in the "outer circles" of syda often make a big distinction
between that status and "inner circle" status.  The argument is something
like:  "OK, you were badly mistreated in the inner circle, but I never was in
the outer.  Maybe it was your karma.  I was more into the inner guru anyway."


I completely disagree.  I think the outer circle was every bit as badly
mistreated, and perhaps more, because the mistreatment is harder to pin down
on any gross concrete sort of abusiveness.  I want to try to say what the
abuse of the outer circle is, in my opinion.

SEE PART 2

Subj:  inner and outer/2 of 2
Date:  96-05-19 07:08:38 EDT
From:  Dissent222      

part 2 of 2

It is being lulled, deceived, lied to, misled - it is being royally escorted
into a house with no foundation  --  and made a prisoner in that house.  When
you discover the truth and try to leave it, you feel that everything will
completely collapse.  So even though it has no foundation, you have to stay
in it.  You say that what you worship is an inner thing, anyway, not an outer
thing, and you stay in the house, having to drive yourself crazy translating
everything you hear (worship the guru) into another language (worship your
own goodness).  That is entrapment, that is enslavement, that is abuse. 

Relationships in the syda house with no foundation will allay anxiety about
loneliness as long as you agree to remain a prisoner.  Should you escape,
those people will shun you and you will cease to exist for them.  Instead of
seeing your release from these sham relationships as freedom, you see it as
unspeakably frightening aloneness.  Remaining in the house with no
foundation, once you know the truth, means that you agree to being imprisoned
and agree to lie to yourself and others by pretending that the house does
have a foundation.  So you sacrifice your integrity to allay your anxiety.
That is entrapement, that is enslavement, that is abuse.

Some people believe that they can come and go  in the house with no
foundation because they don't buy into all the outer stuff, they've got their
own inner thing going and they're not getting hoodwinked - they know the
score.  They come to the ashram because they get a buzz, a high, and they
don't get it in other places.  In my opinion, that is a very simple case of
hypnotic self-suggestion, not evidence of divine shakti magically existing in
something external.  Why would a place built by people who sexually abuse
young women and lie about it have more power than the power of your own self?
Because you have been persuaded to devalue the power of your own self.  This
exaltation of the external and devaluation of the internal is entrapment,
enslavement, and abuse.   

Anyway, these are my opinions on the matter.  I feel them strongly.  I
haven't fully said what I think the abuse of  the outer circle is, I've just
touched on it.  I hope others who can speak about this will also try to
illuminate it.  The obsuring of the abuse of the outer circle is of course
one of the reasons that the New Yorker article floated by like a cloud for
most of the devotees in syda.  It's what keeps syda in big business.