Subj: Misplaced Gratitude Date: 96-05-19 07:34:08 EDT From: Cker Re: Howie's characterization of my "gratitude" as "misplaced": There is no doubt in my mind that I can take, and am taking, something good away from this whole chapter in my life, and that this is a positive thing. *That* is where my gratitude comes in. It is not "gratitude to the guru," SY-style. I can understand people feeling victimized by SY. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that people (including myself) have been and are victimized by their involvement on that path. To the extent one is vulnerable to the mind control, and through no fault of one's own, SY creates victims. For some, especially those who lived in the ashram and gave up significant chunks of the prime of their lives, it may be worse than for others. I admit that it's not outside the realm of possibility that I may, at some point, "get in touch with" my "SY victim" side. There is much I gave up to be involved in SY. But "victim" is just not a role I relate to as a former devotee, right now. I did go through a period of significant mental, emotional, spiritual, and (sort of) physical torture coming to the decision to leave SY. I am so glad that part is done. This is what I'm grateful for: my experience in SY also broadened my exposure and *opened* my mind (really!) to the existence of what I have heard referred to as the "perennial wisdom," basic truth dressed in, sometimes hidden in, different cultural and historical perspectives. I learned to consider spiritual issues in my life in a fresh context after being raised in a rigid Catholic mold. Leaving SY frees me to explore the range of that "perennial wisdom." Having a familiarity with the trappings and traps of organized religion, I'd like to believe that my life experience - including SY - has freed me from the need to explore my spiritual life within a context of other-oriented "approval for performance." (I've memorized two "Catechisms" now - the Baltimore version and the Ganeshpuri version. Enough!) I just finished Ken Wilber's excellent book about his and his wife's battle with her cancer, "Grace and Grit." He describes how that experience - a decidedly "victimizing" one all around - propelled them on their individual spiritual paths and the one they shared all too briefly. Wilber digresses for a chapter to talk about his theory of the evolution of consciousness within the context of human existence. He speaks of "exoteric" religion, relying on a community which agrees on a set of common myths or constructs to explain "truth" (and often gets so caught up in defending the myths that the truth is lost) versus "esoteric" spirituality, the inner journey of discovery of the "perennial wisdom" that a person can take only when they're ready leave the commitment to the exoteric myths behind. My experience in SY prepared me to hear and understand what Wilber has to say. As I read his discussion, I realized that, having been exposed to alternative ways of approaching a spiritual life, I'm now ready to launch a much more personal search for truth, a true inner journey of discovery of the the perennial wisdom that lies within me, as it does in all of us. That feels right to me, right now. It makes sense to me. I am not uncomfortable with the knowledge that I arrived at this place having traveled through SY. Don't get me wrong: I do not recommend that route! But it was the route I took, and there's no sense in me getting all upset about it now. It just was where I was at the time, and I learned from it. I feel at peace with that part of it. For that, I *am* grateful. It is not "misplaced." It's inside me, where it belongs. My best to you all, Cker Subj: Replies to Cker (1) Date: 96-05-19 11:28:11 EDT From: Fibonacci8 << I tutored and submitted to tutoring to improve my "understanding" to no avail. I revealed that I was having a problem reconciling this only once, and very obliquely, to the center leader. The reaction was clear, unconditional, and reflexive contempt at even the suggestion of doubt. >> Yes, contempt. But was it really contempt "at even the suggestion of doubt" or was it contempt for something else. I would imagine the contempt you felt directed at your doubt was a decoy on the part of your center leader. Why would he feel contempt for your doubt? What had you done to deserve contempt? Your center leader's contempt may have appeared to be heading in your direction, but I'll bet was really aimed at his own suppressed doubts, at the well suppressed knowledge he really has of syda's big lie. When you revealed your doubts to him you were threatening him in an extreme way. You were threatening to awaken the tightly corked genie that could smash his whole smug fantasy in one blow. I used to be afraid of having my smug little syda fantasy life destroyed. I heard about things I refused to investigate. I hid behind the lie that my own inner experiences validated and exonerated syda and its gurus. What was I hiding from? What were we all hiding from when we put on our blinders along with our rudraksha beads? I think I was hiding from my vulnerability. Syda seemed to offer me a path to invulnerability, to a fantastic and infantile vision of safety. Having rejected syda, I find myself returning to personhood, becoming a regular person again. Does this seem familiar? This is how I see it: We have descended from the high mountains of discipleship and supreme attainment, and where have we arrived? We have arrived at our brokenness, our human frailty, our flawed natures, our weakness. We have arrived at our vulnerability, the same vulnerability which once led us blindly into betrayal and humiliation. But that was because we were afraid of our vulnerability and we were running away from it. This time we have arrived at our vulnerability in acceptance of it. What was all that nonsense about putting on the broad smile of the fantasy life? Why did I think I needed to dress up my limping psyche in the royal colors of the magic kingdom and the phony pride of denial? Siddha yoga appeared to be a fortress which would protect me forever from my vulnerability. After all those years I am discovering that my vulnerability needs me to accept it, not to run from it, or destroy it, or transcend it. It now seems to me that this understanding unlocked the gate which held me inside syda long after my inner voice told me to leave. So that's how I see it, and that's why I think your center leader was hiding by directing his contempt your way. It was frightening and painful for me to go through all this stuff, and I'll bet your center leader smells that same fear and pain inside himself. When you revealed your doubts to him he ran from the scent of his own fear and pain as fast as he could, and then hid from his own running in the form of contempt for your doubts. Subj: Replies to Cker (2) Date: 96-05-19 11:30:05 EDT From: Fibonacci8 << So, maybe I was not a willing accomplice in the seduction at the beginning, but I continued the affair long after I knew it could have ended. >> For me the important thing in this matter of seduction and complicity is understanding it. I found that I couldn't rest or feel free until I understood what it was that seduced me, and what it was in me that responded to the seduction. Understanding what seduced me was pretty easy to see once I started looking. Understanding what it was in me that responded to it took more time, and is still going on. The point for me is to understand how the seductive offer fit into my personal makeup -- my strengths, my weaknesses, my confusion, my intellect, the whole package. The point is to understand myself, not to blame myself. This understanding has come painfully but it has been liberating. It is self knowledge. In a strange and unexpected way, this is the kind of self knowledge I always wanted. It was my aspiration for this kind of self knowledge that led me to pop hinduism in the first place. A couple of weeks ago I posted a quote from Andrew Harvey on the subject of abusive gurus. Part of the quote is very germane to this business of suduction and complicity, so I'm reposting that part of it: << So what kind of wisdom could they possibly have if they are first indulging in that kind of abuse and then denying it in sometimes criminal ways? We really do have to face the full extent of their failure, and that is very painful, because we then have to face our illusions about them and the ways in which we colluded with them in our hope for magical solutions and transformations on the cheap. >> (Yoga Journal, July 95) That last sentence is a little harsh but it aims at self understanding, not at blame. Andrew Harvey speaks for me on this point. Like he says, it has been painful. It has also been liberating because it is leading me to self understanding, self acceptance, and a sense of freedom and integrity. Subj: Re: Agni's dream Date: 96-05-19 11:55:34 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Thanks for your Amrit dream, Agni. Dakshina Magazine! Setting up a puja on a bicycle! Not far from the truth, is it? What madness we all lost ourselves in. The puzzling thing is that we aren't mad people. I think we bought into the madness because of some kind of great desperation covered over with equally great hope. Still it's puzzling. Humor has helped me a lot in this climb out of the pit of madness. Poking fun at the madness somehow makes it all a little easier, and a lot more fun. Fibs Subj: Re:Fibs to Cker Date: 96-05-19 12:10:16 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 Fibs: brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. This helps enormously in my own process of trying to figure out what the heck is happening to me vis a vis all of this. I do not yet begin to understand what my own "seduction and complicity" is about but yes, it's certainly at the crux of things. As human beings we gravitate towards whatever we hope will make us feel "complete" -- relationships, big experiences, communities, ideologies. SY offers so many of these avenues to completeness -- ON THE SURFACE. And, as with other things that don't quite work out for us -- that relationship we thought was going to save our life, that drug that momentarily gave us great psychological insights and dulled the pain, that community where everyone seemed so much like us, that ideology with all the answers -- it's very hard to say, "Oh well, I was wrong -- next!!!" Perhaps the real question we have to ask ourselves is, "What is it about me that makes me think I'm so fundamentally lacking as a human being?" (Dissent, thanks for initially pointing this out to me in your inimitable tough-love style! It didn't really click for me before because in my pain, I couldn't get past the "tough" part.) Fibs, yoou said, "Siddha Yoga appeared to be a fortress which would protect me forever from my vulnerability....I am discovering that my vulnerability needs me to accept it, not run from it, or destroy it, or transcend it....this understanding unlocked the gate which held me inside syda long after my inner voice told me to leave." Someone else on these boards some time ago said SY is a beautiful cage without bars that people are afraid to leave. As you have put it so beautifully, the bars are our own vulnerabilities, our fears of being weak and having all this "stuff" to deal with. Someone, or many someones, along the way let us know it was not okay to be who we are. One the first things you hear in SY is "You are divine, you are great," which strikes most of us as either totally unbelievable or as a major relief. The next thing you hear is "Your divinity and greatness are covered by layers and layers of impurities (your personality, your individuality, your belief system, your human emotions -- dreadful stuff!) that have to be scraped off of you by the Guru combined with your own self effort." Catch 22: if I leave before I've been "purified," what will I do now? Who else will put up with me in this sorry state except these wonderful people and my wonderful Guru? Am I still God inside? Or do I now have to accept that I'm just a human being, a work in progress? Wait, that would mean I have no "grace," no "divine protection," that I'm just as much of a loser now as I thought I was x number of years ago before I was assured I was divine!!! This is really overwhelming stuff for most people. I suspect the contemptuous ones, SY folk who put others down for not being completely "surrendered," have the most to lose, the least sense of self. I want to make one point though, in case anyone is wanting to go look up Andrew Harvey: he has become the guru of anti-guruism. His statements about the pitfalls of guru paths are nullified, I think, by these workshops he gives on merging with the goddess and the mini-cult following he has acquired. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him! Subj: Bob delurks 1/5 Date: 96-05-19 12:45:40 EDT From: Bob1258487 PART ONE OF FIVE _______________ To Cker and Dissent, I agree with Cker that SY may broaden our experience by showing us something that we would never have experienced otherwise. However I differ with both you and Dissent as to what the nature of that something may be. Cker refers to it as the "perennial widom," a basic truth. Dissent refers to it as "hypnotic self-suggestion". I think perhaps Cker may be closer - I think it *is* a basic truth of our existence, but something a bit less grandiose than our religious leaders would have us believe. Without the religious trappings, what do we really have? In the same way the aids virus is so effective because it attacks the very system our bodies use to fight viruses, I believe the "divine experience" syndrome may be effective because it works on parts of our brain used to create our emotions, so we can not easily examine it with our minds. I do not believe the actual physical experiences are hypnotic suggestion, though the fact that we end up thinking of them positively may be a result of the supportive religious atmosphere in an intensive. (BVena mentioned something like this the other day, when he talked about some drug experiment that had different results depending on the suggestions given to the subject while on the drug.) My theory is that "kriyas," white and blue lights, laughing, snorting, tinglings in the spine, and other overwhelming physical experiences ARE within us - our nervous system, that is - and accessible through some kind of epileptic-like action. There is apparently a way to bring on this epileptic-like syndrome through external means. Perhaps it is the stuff of life itself, just like they say. Except. . . do we have to buy any of the rest of it? Does it really lead to any spiritual development? Or is it merely an interesting side light of the fact that we are human. Perhaps we are merely overwhelming our human apparatus with too much current and pressing some "religious experience" button over and over, like Pavlov's dogs. Sure we can do it. Does it really do us any good in the end? Some people have kriyas long after they have left SY. Are they developing into self-realized beings? Or are they merely left with a chronic case of epilepsy? Once the rituals and rites are stripped away, what are we really left with? Sure, there is more here than science can explain. But I don't think the gurus have explained it either; they have just contained it in a socially acceptable mass of rituals. To give you guys an idea of just how close this all is to the experience of epileptics, I will quote from some posts I've collected on the internet. I've removed the names, since I'm not sure the people would like to have their id's spread all over the net. If you really want to find them, you can search AltaVista or deja news. I assure you, these folks don't feel that they are on the path of self realization (with one exception, Post 6!). Please understand, also. I am not discounting the various unexplainable psychic experiences that happen to people. I am merely saying that perhaps we should stop assuming they have any positive or negative content and that they have anything to do with spiritual evolution. CONTINUED IN NEXT MESSAGE Subj: Bob delurks 2/5 Date: 96-05-19 12:45:53 EDT From: Bob1258487 PART TWO OF FIVE _______________ POST 1: <> ______________________________________ POST 2: <> ______________________________________ POST 3: <> ______________________________________ CONTINUED IN NEXT MESSAGE Subj: Bob delurks 3/5 Date: 96-05-19 12:46:08 EDT From: Bob1258487 PART THREE OF FIVE _______________ POST 4: <> ______________________________________ POST 5: <<. . .at least in the case of TLE [Temporal Lobe Epilepsy] there are some non-seizure experiences that are very interesting and even pleasant. Some of these stopped when I went on anti-convulsants (Tegretol). I miss having had synesthesia which is the mixing up of senses (I saw sounds as light patterns). However I still have like the hypergraphia. :-) ...I also often have an unusual experience of the passage of time--maybe this is why I like the term "temporal". I think what the one person wrote about is an enhanced religiosity where one is likely to see a spiritual experience everywhere. Oliver Sacks has written a lot about people who have had unique experiences probably related to TLE...>> ______________________________________ POST 6: <> ______________________________________ CONTINUED IN NEXT MESSAGE Subj: Bob delurks 4/5 Date: 96-05-19 12:46:23 EDT From: Bob1258487 PART FOUR OF FIVE ____________ POST 7: <> ______________________________________ POST 8: <> ______________________________________ POST 9: Before I had my first grand mal seizure I used to just have auras. A feeling of deja-vu that draws you in to it. I would concentrate on the aura almost as if I were taking a strange journey into the mind until one day it happened, I seized. As the years went on I learned not to be drawn in by the feeling and now I feel that I can "talk myself out of a seizure". I don't really have a technique per say, but I just don't let my mind explore the aura, I concentrate on something else and usually try to talk to myself in my mind about something else. Staying relaxed is also key.>> ______________________________________ CONTINUED IN NEXT MESSAGE Subj: Bob delurks 5/5 Date: 96-05-19 12:46:34 EDT From: Bob1258487 PART FIVE OF FIVE ____________ POST 10: << I will get these feelings in my head that begin as almost a tickling in the back of my head. I feel kind of lightheaded, then I feel like I have to go to the bathroom. I have had blood work and a 48 hour eeg and have been told that I am fine in that respect. Is this some kind of seizure? >> ______________________________________ POST 11: << I have had that EXACT feeling!!! It almost feels like your brain is turning to water and draining down your spinal column. Is this it? I can actually HEAR it! I have asked my husband many times if he can hear it, but he says he can't. It seems loud to me, so I always think others can hear it! My doctor can't explain it!>> ______________________________________ (BOB) And now, if you folks are still with me, I'd like to direct you all to the Blessings web page (http://maths.uwa.edu.au/~hartley/rprice/bob.html) where a very interesting, but copyrighted essay by neurologist Dr. Robert Winer is posted. It seems that the Vineyard church in Toronto has what we SYDAites might call a "shaktipat" service nearly every day of the week, attended by thousands. Of course they have a slightly different interpretation of it, and from what I've read, it appears that it can be transmitted from prayer group to prayer group, without the aid of a "guru". Just another thing to think about... Subj: Re:Bob delurks 5/5 Date: 96-05-19 14:17:59 EDT From: BVena Per your posts Bob, THAT'S IT THAT'S IT THAT'S IT! To be more clear, I was waiting for some info about "outside" kundalini like experiences. Thanks a bunch Beau Yes I've droped the "spiritual" name finally. If people guess who I am and if the Guru SS comes after me I'll be ready for the fight. Subj: Kundalini, Alpha, Anchovies? Date: 96-05-20 00:18:53 EDT From: Cker This is an area touched on in the Kundalini discussion in "Hinduism," that these experiences of "energy" are indigenous to the human system and that whole systems of spiritual thought have evolved over the ages to explain very common (even if "supernatural") phenomenon. I was not taught about this energy in my mainline religious indoctrination/education, but I reinterpreted pre-SY experiences (memories? fantasies? transcendance? lactose intolerance?) of that energy within the context of Sw. Kripananda's Kundalini talks (a mainstay in intensives until several years ago), and this fascinated me. It was a very big part of the seduction, that the guru could awaken and guide this mysterious energy I'd never heard anyone acknowledge before. (Christian mysticism was taboo, especially in the 50s and early 60s.) And *this* "energy management program" worked in a "very" convenient way! All my shortcomings were kriyas, just adding a little bad karma for "bad" behavior to the *guru's* load; she would do all the work. "And all I must do is sit in love with you..." even if I do develop neurological damage in my legs from trying to sit crosslegged. (Ooooh...I still get tingly listening to "From the Heart" - gotta watch that!) I believe that human beings are more than a collection of cells and electrical impulses, and that knowing this side of myself is an important part of life. But natural processes can go haywire, creating disease which one might dangerously misinterpret as "kriya." (Variation on the theme: There are certain "karmic visitations," like HIV, that I hear-tell are particularly nettlesome for SYDA. While the line was, "You don't have to go to a cave. You don't have to leave your family...", it turns out you *do" have to create your own "remote site sadhana center" to work out *that* "kriya," because the ashram is only for "healthy" people. But HIV+ is not synonymous with "sick." So, why the exile? This is one of the "manifestations of the energy" that, apparently, the guru does not have a handle on, and I just couldn't seem to get my mind around the fact that, with all her power, she would need to exclude anyone. Wasn't she taking refuge in.... Oh never mind.... Cheerily, we can say, "Ah, the satellite Intensives make it possible for 'those people' to access grace." Next thing you know, the Prasad Project promotional videos will feature leper colonies with dishes.) This is like shooting fish in a barrel, isn't it, once you begin to admit to yourself all the BS passed off as "understanding"? Subj: random thoughts Date: 96-05-20 08:06:22 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear Folks - It's been so helpful being on these boards lately - I'm kind of blown away by the insight and the depth of understanding that is being shared here. It is so great to hear others expose the craziness and the fraudulence that was so rife in the syda culture. I know there was a lot that felt loving and good about life in syda. And that all institutions are always going to be composed of light and dark elements. But that doesn't do it as an apology for syda. It wasn't just "into each life some rain must fall." There was more corruption, deception and cruelty than is tolerable. And when it was exposed, we only got lies and distortion in response, only cover-ups and whitewashing. OK, the church blew it with covering up pedophile priests for years, but that's changing. Is syda ever going to change? I think not, because its leader is assigned the status of divine monarch - and the bottom line in syda is not the teachings of yoga or hinduism or of any philosophical or religious system. The bottom line is obey the guru, or else. At this stage of my life, I no longer want to assign anyone in any relationship, institutional or otherwise, that kind of control over my life. When you give power of attorney to someone, it's because you're incapable of making rational decisions or exercising judgment. Remember the impassioned talk Namdev gave in some program or other about how "the guru taught me what to eat, how to walk, how to dress, how to speak. I didn't know what to do until she taught me. I was wandering like a beggar, a straw in the wind" etc etc etc. Does anyone remember that? It was so moving to me at the time. Everyone was crying. Now I SHUDDER!!! I GAG!!!! We deemed ourselves incompetent and we gave power of attorney to GM - we did, guys. We said, like Namdev, "I don't know how to do anything, I'm a helpless straw in the wind, pick me up, put me down, I'll do whatever you say. Let's make a deal, I'll do whatever you say, I'll wear poofy hair tchotchkes, I'll go numb, I'll go deaf and blind, I'll be good, I promise -- I'll even listen to you sing. Anything, just do my life for me, your way. Your way works and mine doesn't." OY. It is indeed, as CKer has pointed out, EMBARRASSING. GM IS NOT WHO SHE SAYS SHE IS, WHO SHE APPEARS TO BE. She is not what we wanted to make her. It's embarrassing, but it is not my fault and it is not yours. Like Fibs said (so perfectly), this is about understanding, not blame. Yes, NOW, only in the leaving of syda, am I gaining the kind of self-knowledge I was looking for. I took a circuitous route. Please, nobody write that that's the grace of a siddha - please, don't tell me that anymore. Plenty of other people reach self-awareness without being tortured by a maniac guru. The good news is, many of us don't have to make anyone into 'the guru' anymore. Nor do we have to be good and obey and give power of attorney. We are in our right minds, we can make choices and decisions, and we can exercise judgment. I LOVE IT! Stray thoughts, pardon my babbling. P.S. - Bob, some of the epileptic experience talks were like quotations from some of mine. This is fascinating terrain to be explored. Very briefly, I think hypnotic and self-suggestion elements are involved in syda, but that they combine with the physiological effects that are triggered. But more on this some other time. Meanwhile, I have 3 arthroscopic knee surgeries and a chronic back condition as a result of the so-called "control of the shakti" in syda. Control, my TOS. Subj: Re: random thoughts (1) Date: 96-05-20 13:19:18 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Regarding gaining self-knowledge after leaving syda, Dissent wrote: << Please, nobody write that that's the grace of a siddha - please, don't tell me that anymore. Plenty of other people reach self-awareness without being tortured by a maniac guru. >> One thing I discovered during my long years in syda is that people do slowly grow up, even if most never reach full personhood or mature adulthood. Growing up isn't easy in this era in America. The culture works against us in so many ways. But people do make some progress on the bombed out road to adulthood, both in the ashram and in the world at large. Sometimes I'd spend time away from the ashram and I'd notice that old friends and relatives had moved forward in their personal journeys and grown up a little. Then I'd go back to the ashram. My friends there would tell me the good news about their sadhana -- how the guru took this illusion away, or that childish expectation, or how some other immature characteristic vanished after an ordeal in their seva or personal relationships. I was seeing the same thing both in the ashram and in the world. Inch by inch, people were growing up. The odd thing was that in the ashram this was all attributed to the grace of the guru. (A technique which helped them hide their anxiety far from view, but that's another discussion.) The longer I remained in SY, the clearer this became. I began to realize that "sadhana" was a fancy word for growing up. Here we all were, a bunch of people who were terrified of having to grow up in this world. We ran into the arms of "guru mother" who tucked us in to our storybook beds where we dreamed our childish dreams. And despite all this people did grow up, slowly and in the name of "sadhana". What was the role of the ashram and the guru in all this? Not fostering healthy growth towards adulthood, that's for sure. Instead of mature adulthood, syda people became dysfunctionally dependent on an abusive leader who took all the credit and kept them feeling dependent. I think the role of the ashram and guru was to divert anxiety out of view and provide a soothing environment and belief system. Once the devotees feel soothed and safe, they allow themselves to go through the normal process of growing up that would have happened anyhow. Unfortunately the results become perverted by the dysfunctional setup of the whole thing. Subj: Re: random thoughts (2) Date: 96-05-20 13:21:29 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Dissent wrote: << We said, like Namdev, "I don't know how to do anything, I'm a helpless straw in the wind, pick me up, put me down, I'll do whatever you say. Let's make a deal, I'll do whatever you say, I'll wear poofy hair tchotchkes, I'll go numb, I'll go deaf and blind. >> Speaking of hair.... The syda hair styles and dress codes are very restrained and socially inoffensive. By contrast, many of the generation x styles are the opposite -- spiked hair, green hair, grotesque body piercing, etc. Yet there's something similar in the motivations that underlie these opposite styles. Both demure devotees and outrageous generation xers start out with a sense of being lost, a longing for belonging, a need for some kind of identity in a world they can't relate to. Solution: find a guru to provide that identity and its associated stylistic behaviors, as the Namdev quote describes so well. For the generation xers, there's no guru but they manage to accomplish the same thing by identifying with a group and adopting its behaviors and self destructive attitudes. Result for both groups: goodbye anxiety, hello denial, welcome abuse. << Meanwhile, I have 3 arthroscopic knee surgeries and a chronic back condition as a result of the so-called "control of the shakti" in syda. Control, my TOS. >> Control of the devotees is more like it. Before SY the devotees were out of control and the shakti was suppressed and under control. During SY the devotees were suppressed and under control, and the shakti was out of control. After SY the former devotees are learning self control and the shakti is considered a neutral or objective phenomenon. Subj: Gnosis Mag. Date: 96-05-20 17:11:39 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 I wanted to alert y'all to the Spring 1996 issue of Gnosis, which is about Western "inner traditions," if that phrase doesn't barf you out to the max at this point. This issue's theme is "East Meets West" and it provides, among other things, one of the sanest discussions of the dilemma of guru paths I've ever read. Highly recommended. Four stars. Subj: Re Bob and Cker (1 of 2) Date: 96-05-20 11:05:47 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 2 Dear Cker, Thanks very much for your insightful and moving posts. And apologies for seeming to critique you last week; I assure you that wasn't my conscious intent, but--now looking back--I guess it was my unconscious intent. I'm not very good at holding back what I think on these matters! I might as well stop trying. As for this message, one of the pitfalls of written discussion is that one can't dwell on points of agreement, for that amounts to repeating what someone else has just said. I do not solve that problem here; I don't mention the many points you raised which I feel deep sympathy with. If you remember that I do have sympathies with your point of view, that will help place my comments below in a better context. You say <<>> I agree with this statement, which isn't saying much. That is, your statement isn't saying much, nor is my admission that I agree to it saying much since the statement is a so general as to be fortune-cookieish. In general (and not referring to Cker) I dislike the appeal to nonspecific generalities as a response to flesh-and-blood people who are experiencing real and specific problems. First that approach is so magisterial in tone as to be inhuman. That kind of appeal reminds me of the useless boilerplate sentences people got in response letters from Gurumayi (i.e., her staff). SYDA yoga was all about that: "You are having uncontrollable kriyas and bouts of unconsciousness? Eat a sweet and repeat the mantra!" One small aside: I find the discussion of kundalini on AOL and the Internet to be on such a low level as to be disturbing and embarrassing. (I would guess that you do also.) Kundalini discussions in the New Age cultural context, in general, seem to be little better than a repository of evidence for naysayers who wish to prove spirituality and disturbed thinking are coextensive. (Not that we are going to win the prize for literature over here!) Bob's citations seemed far more substantive. Where are you are going with this reference to Internet kundalini discussions? After all you've written here, I am to take it you still go for that sort of thing? SEE PART 2 Subj: Re:Re Bob and Cker (2 of 2) Date: 96-05-20 19:29:00 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 2 Dear Cker, You say, <<>> Agreed 100%. I too don't take the mechanistic view of the universe too far. NEARLY NO ONE DOES, except hard-line atheists. Scientists, whose number include Muslims, Orthodox Jews, born-again Christians, and Siddha Yogis, are not "mechanists." I don't think Bob is. I want to insist on this point because I find that it is important to value things that yield only partial, and PRACTICAL solutions to human problems. Like auto mechanics, medicine, engineering, and dentistry. It's the need for totalizing answers--which becomes an addiction after a while--that makes people snap at the bait of gibberish spiritual generalities. When it comes time to pick up the real human wreckage, it is the people who have the humility to work on problems a step at a time that can really offer compassionate and effective responses. Fine scientists are among those humble people who do REAL WORK--instead of gaily distributing the TOS of New Age quacks and lobotomat philosophy to lost people WHO REALLY SHOULD BE CONSIDERING ALTERNATIVE FRAMES OF REFERENCE. Don't get me wrong--this is not a plug for science. It is a plea for a more humane and less hubristic mode of discourse among all who take it upon themselves to distribute advice. Fibonacci is right--one small step is better than a landfill of grandiose platitudes. What Bob seems to be giving (and Bob correct me please if I misread) is not a mechanistic "answer" as to the nature of God. Rather, Bob's message seemed to be a response to the monotone, SYDAesque conceptual framework that these discussions seem to get trapped in; a stimulus to move discussion in a direction that encompasses not only the spiritual and emotional aftermath of SYDA, but the nervous system aftermath. I understand and accept that these discussions will tend to be trapped in SYDAesque thought. Becoming de-brainwashed is not an overnight process. <<>> That's what I've thought for a long time. Yet zombies are coming out of the SYDA punch-presses at an alarming rate even as we speak. As long as this is the case, there is a need for those who know to take the effort to REPEAT THE OBVIOUS--just as MDSNMAN said beautifully a few days ago. P. S.--That's why GoldenSeva's criticism of the "repetitiveness" of posts was, in my reading, a sign of bias. What could be more repetitive than the rituals of religion? I don't have a problem with that, nor does GoldenSeva. What was GoldenSeva criticizing then? The need for repeating public service messages about SYDA corruption? Subj: Why he left the cult 1/2 Date: 96-05-21 06:20:21 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Excerpted from his 1991 book, the following is Feurstein explaining why he left the cult he was involved in. I post it because what he says resonates with our recent discussion of the SYDA cult. PART 1 OF 2 BEGIN QUOTED MATERIAL <<>> SEE PART 2 Subj: Why he left the cult 2/2 Date: 96-05-21 06:21:01 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 FEURSTEIN QUOTED MATERIAL CONTINUED<<>> <<>>END QUOTED MATERIAL Subj: SY thinking Date: 96-05-21 09:46:00 EDT From: BVena Here as an example of typical SY thinking, as it applies to every day life. I've recently gotten a puppy from the local animal shelter. Bet we could play this game with just about any situation. I go to pick out a dog: SY thinking. "God has led me to this puppy because it's been here as long as they keep them. It will be destroyed tomorrow if not taken. Normal thinking. "This is the only dog here that's not going to weigh 100 lbs later so I'll take her." I wanted a male dog because it's easier to neuter, I wind up with a female: SY thinking. "I didn't know that female dogs don't chew up everything the way little boy dogs do. God has protected me." Normal thinking. "That was the only dog there that's not going to weigh 100 lbs later." Dog has a host of animal shelter related illnesses$$$$$: SY thinking. "This dog is costing me a fortune. The guru must know I wrote bad thinks on AOL." Normal thinking. "I hope this diarrhea stops soon. I wonder how much it costs to have the carpets cleaned." Puppy fur falls out. Dog goes through an ugly phase: SY thinking. "If I was still in SY this wouldn't be happening. I would have a pretty dog." Normal thinking. "What did you say about my dog??!!!" Dog gets over shelter shock and becomes affectionate. Sleeps in the crook of my arm: SY thinking. "I have an attachment! I can't have an attachment! What if god takes it away from me?" Normal thinking. "Hello pooty pie, did you come to take a nap with me?" By the way, when I took care of Nityananda Jr's chow, I fed it hamburger that was kept in the Amrit walk in fridge. Rhadananda went around screaming "It's a test, It's a test!" Beau Subj: The Howie Sahasranam Date: 96-05-21 06:30:37 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, A great deal of posting activity about Siddha Yoga is taking place in the Ethics area; much more than here. Specifically, it is in the ETHICS/SIDDHA YOGA ETHICS DEBATE area. (To get there, type keyword RELIGION, and then click RELIGION & ETHICS FORUM, and then the ETHICS topic message board.) As for the pressing SYDA question regarding "what Howie is," which many have taken up (see previous posts, here and on the other folder), I believe that my disciples, who have wisely chosen me as their object of focus, are coming up with a Howie Sahasranam. The first verses are-- <<<(IN MANTRIC DRONING STYLE) Howeeeee, is a coweeeee, namah namah (breathe!)/ Howeeeeee is a womaaaan, namah namah (breathe!)/Howeeeeee is a baaaarking dog, namah namah (breathe!)/Howeeeeeee is a fallen yogeeeeee, namah namah (breathe!)/ . . . . . Subj: Howie's having a kriya Date: 96-05-21 11:19:04 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Cker says <<>> Ain't that the truth! For your amusement, here are some things that were whispered about me when I was talking like a whistle-blowing Rodarmor sound-alike (in my naive days when I thought a word to the wise was sufficient): ********* Q. WHAT'S THE DEAL WITH HOWIE? A1. He's having a kriya. A2. He's burning from the shakti. (Second-place) A3. His ego is giving him trouble. (Probably first-place, but I wouldn't know since they don't say things like this to your face.) A4. He had trouble making the transition from Baba to Gurumayi. (Pretty darn popular--maybe third or fourth place) A5. He's deluded. A6. The guru's really working on him. (This was definitely the most popular explanation.) A7. That's the perfect sadhana for him given his karma. A8. He's an "avadhut." ************* P. S. Cker, you are a great sport! Please keep posting! Subj: Response to ArtSMarie 1/2 Date: 96-05-21 14:06:19 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 2 Dear ArtSMarie, You say <<>> Please say what you think as best you can and it will receive full consideration. You may recall there was a period in which pro-SYDA comments were well in the majority; you may also recall that in those times I never let that stop me from saying what I thought. There is a pro-SYDA (supporter) folder available to you as well. <<>> Give me a context for this comment by answering this: Do you believe that Lis Harris's New Yorker article critiquing SYDA is a product of people's imaginations? <<>> What I see going on here is, people are giving their side of SYDA history--reporting the facts that are hidden from newcomers, and the experiences that people have had in SYDA. If newcomers--after hearing both sides of the story--decide to participate in SYDA anyway, fine. (For the sake of argument, I am putting aside the alleged illegal conduct of SYDA, which is not protected under the freedom of religion, and so is not "fine" regardless of how cult members interpret it.) ArtSMarie, It is not ethical to recruit cult members without telling them history, facts, and the kind of outcome they can expect from SYDA participation. <<<.....Why don't you go after Knute or Rush instead, they are causing real damage.>>> People who know are telling the inside story of SYDA. This is easy to understand. Those who know about short-weighting at the grocery store, as well as those who know about mass murder in China tell their stories. To tell what you know is a natural impulse. SEE PART 2 Subj: Response to ArtSMarie 2/2 Date: 96-05-21 14:07:41 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 2 Dear ArtSMarie, You say <<>> I do not accept your version of happiness--I am just too familiar with SYDA's thought-system, and the bliss-ninny syndrome it induces. The following considers the allure of "cult-bliss," "groupthink joy": BEGIN QUOTED MATERIAL<<<. . . surrounded by exotic trappings, converts may rapidly absorb the cult's altered ways of thought and daily life. Before they realize what is happening, while their attention is diverted by contrived spiritual conflicts, repetitive rituals . . . the new cult members may slide into a state of mind in which they literally are no longer capable of thinking for themselves. In our view, this comprehensive assault strikes at the heart of consciousness, undermining the basic processes of thought and feeling essential to individual awareness and volition. Yet to zealous cult members this new state of mind often has another name: happiness. Their characteristic public pronouncement is that they have found true happiness, fulfillment on both personal and spiritual planes, in the simple life and labor of the cult. Their everyday state is a constant high, an emotional peak that maintains itself. When it falters, for whatever reason, cult members may simply intensify any number of techniques of meditation, chanting, or fervent prayer in which they have been studiously instructed, all guaranteed to return them to the state of bliss that is their reward for unquestioning devotion.>>> <<< . . . a person may reach a state of explosive overstimulation or emotional collapse. In the aftermath of this overwhelming new experience, he or she may enter a state of mind that is perceived as a renewal or rebirth and which may be, in fact, an ongoing physical and emotional high. . . . their problems solved because they have, in effect, stopped worrying about the things that were bothering them. At the present time, our language has no term for this new way of coping with the problems of life. We can describe the process as one of shutting off the mind, of not-thinking. In our view, this is the underlying appeal of countless cults, sects and therapies operating in America and worldwide, as well as the unstated attraction of many branches of born-again Christianity.>>>END QUOTED MATERIAL (Conway and Siegleman, 52-3). Subj: Response to ArtSMarie 2/2 Date: 96-05-21 14:07:41 EDT From: Howie Sm Subj: Some thoughts - 1 of 2 Date: 96-05-21 16:14:24 EDT From: Dissent222 Part 1 of 2 Dear AOL readers: I had a great conversation with some syda-ex folks yesterday, and there were some points we made that I wanted to try to express here in the forum. It had to do with relationship. In Syda, we found ourselves focusing on the guru (either the inner or the outer form, in whatever permutation), looking up with shining faces to a leader on a throne (or in our hearts, in the form of our own transcendent essence) -- and not really looking at each other. We kept looking up at her, and not at each other. We were taught "see God in each other", but many of us had a lot of trouble seeing each other to begin with, or feeling as though we ourselves were truly seen. For many of us before syda, relationships were difficult. Seeing God in each other seemed like a good solution to the painful problems of engaging in intimate relationships with people. But it was a non-solution, and I think it led to a sort of generalized automatic "knowing" of people based on assumptions about the status of their spirituality, rather than any real knowing. Real knowing of people is based on the empathetic, mutual ariticulation and communication of feelings. And it includes misunderstandings and working through those misunderstandings. It includes all kinds of emotions, not just "see the good, the highest." Yes, intimate, empathetic knowing includes even the capacity to hate and to still love. I can't remember any syda conversations that ever approached that level of complexity. Usually, it's more like: "have faith, forget your feelings, focus on the guru, do more seva." These kinds of bromides contain no real understanding and empathy - they are as absurd as those ridiculous labels Howie describes people pasting on him when he would attempt to point out evidence of abuses in syda. That kind of parroting of group jargon passes for intimacy in syda when in fact it is anything but. That kind of relating tends to drive one deeper and deeper into a solipsistic folie a deux with the imaginary omnipresent guru. It's tragic, in a way. The search for connection that led to the ashram resulted in deeper and deeper disconnectedness as we got more and more one-pointed on the guru's love, the guru's grace, the guru's heart, the guru's feet, the guru the guru the guru. For many who think of themselves as "outer circle", that's the m.o. There's this unfounded, magical belief that GM is watching and she KNOWS (when you are sleeping, she knows when you're awake - end song cue). She picks the perfect stuffy to give you on the darshan line and that proves that she KNEW exactly what you were thinking because the gift was EXACTLY a symbolic representation of some aspect of yourself you'd been praying about. Yeah, right. I DON'T THINK SO! The syda myth is that "gurumayi sees me, she knows my every thought and feeling, she's with me and in me." Fine, but where do YOU go when she inhabits you? YOU get split off and buried in some psychic storage bin, while the "ME PLUS MY INNER GURUMAYI" version of yourself is put on like a costume. IN the book SNAPPING, it's called sudden personality change. Steve Hassan calls it "self and cult-self." I am discovering that I like myself a lot more without my GM costume on. see Part 2 Subj: some thoughts - 2 of 2 Date: 96-05-21 16:14:52 EDT From: Dissent222 Part 2 of 2 Next rant. Now, There is a psychotherapy conference happening at the ashram this summer, the 4th annual conference. It's called Kashmir Shaivism in Professional Practice. Among the lead speakers are: Sw. Durgananada, the one who lied and refused to admit that she had acknowledged to the Boston devotees that Baba did have sex with many young girls. She'll be helping the participants to use "the witness consciousness, as we discover how to work with and dissolve deep tendencies with the fire of our own awareness." Perhaps she will also be teaching how to use witness consciousness to lie about and conceal sexual abuses in the ashram. Then there's Richard Gillette, one of the psychologists that breaks his professional code of ethics and violates the confidentiality of his clients by schmoozing with GM about them and listening to her make sarcastic comments about them while he joins in the laughter. Then there's the conference organizer, Sanand Winzeler, one of those guys who chased GM's brother around Kennedy Airport, threatening him and shouting, "we're going to get you." ( BTW, the other "clones" in the airport incident were Ganesh Irelan, Marcel Ringawa, Ganapati Buga, and Kaunteya Barnett.) One of the most astonishing parts of the conference is a section entitled: "How Can We Share Siddha Yoga With Clients" led by a panel of syda therapists. There is only one answer which is in accordance with the ethical codes of the psychotherapy (psychiatry, psychology, social work) profession(s): that is NOT to share SYDA at all. Nothing could be more unprofessional and more damaging to a pscychotherapy client than for their therapist to recruit them into a religion. And yet again and again, SYDA devotees who are therapists bring busloads of their clients to the ashram to meet GM. There are innumerable implications, all of them damaging to the client, to doing something so patently unprofessional as that. The most obvious is that, say the client is wandering around the internet and gets pointed to this discussion. They read every word, the open letters, the essay, the archives. And then they try to discuss it with their therapist, if they aren't too frightened of his potential response to broach the subject. And say this therapist decides to tell the patient that their doubts are projections, paranoia; maybe the therapist says "trust your own experience." DOES ANYONE SEE HOW DANGEROUS AND DESTRUCTIVE THIS IS BESIDES ME? And really, that's just the tip of the iceberg of this issue. More later - Dissent222 Subj: Re:some thoughts - 2 of 2 Date: 96-05-21 18:30:56 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, It was just mentioned that a SYDA program offering is titled: "HOW CAN WE SHARE SIDDHA YOGA WITH CLIENTS" Do they mean how can professional therapists discuss (share?!) Siddha Yoga with CLIENTS WHO APPROACH THEM IN THEIR PROFESSIONAL CAPACITY? For the love of Caesar! Talkin' bout zombie recruitment strategies! This is lower than a fishbelly in the Mariana trench! If this is true, these mere eight words--IN THEMSELVES--are unethical, and an outrage. --It is prima facie evidence of SYDA's lack of regard for any standards (such as PROFESSIONAL STANDARDS) except their own. --It is prima facie evidence of SYDA's automatic assumption that it can violate anyone's boundaries, that it can use the emotional vulnerabilites of those seeking help as an entree for self-serving spiritual-vampire adventures. Not to mention as an entree to pocketbooks and strong backs. --It is STRONG EVIDENCE that SYDA therapists are already accustomed to using their profession for zombie recruitment. The relish and magnitude with which the idea has been embraced indicates the momentum that is behind it, within the ranks of the SYDA therapist population. --The fact that those participating probably SINCERELY THINK THAT SIDDHA YOGA IS THE "WAY," and that they let this belief affect their professional conduct indicates that these therapists are MENTALLY DISTURBED as a result of their protracted brainwashing--it indicates yet again that: SIDDHA YOGA IS A DESTRUCTIVE CULT. Can one imagine a Jewish, Catholic, or Islamic therapist with this kind of unethical hubris? Dissent222, am I misinterpreting what you wrote? This course sounds so unethical and crazy that I can't believe even wacko SYDA would go public with a title like "HOW CAN WE SHARE SIDDHA YOGA WITH CLIENTS." The final kicker is: I bet the discipleship is so brainwashed that they won't even notice how grossly problematic this cockamamy concept is. Subj: SYDA Therapist Disorder Date: 96-05-21 21:23:01 EDT From: Dissent222 No, Howie, you haven't misinterpreted anything. The Flyer for this event lists the following: Saturday, July 20 9 - 12:30 Morning Prog.w/GM 12:30-2 Lunch 2-2:15 Welcome, overview and history 2:30 Psychotherapists Panel: "How Can We Share Siddha Yoga with Clients?" Case histories, discussion, small groups and sharing. And it goes on and on. So you see, the recruitment aspect of the program is given billing second only to Gurumayi. Pretty stunning, isn't it? Subj: bibliography Date: 96-05-21 21:28:14 EDT From: Dissent222 Just saw this on alt.yoga - a bibliography Subject: Re: Censorhip Attempt Fails From: jai@mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 20:09:25 GMT Message-ID: <1LioxQ9zBUQf089yn@mantra.com> MIND-CONTROL CULTS: A Bibliography The books listed below are recommended for anyone who wants to learn about mind-control cults: Cialdini, Robert B., Ph.D.; Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion Deikman, Arthur, M.D.; The Wrong Way Home: Uncovering the Patterns of Cult Behavior in American Society; Beacon Press, Boston, MA Winn, Denise; The Manipulated Mind Hoffer, Eric; The True Believer Hassan, Steve: Combatting Cult Mind Control Gallanter, Marc; Cults: Faith, Healing, and Coercion Langone, Michael, ed.; Recovery From Cults Ford, Wendy: Some Thoughts on Recovery; (recovering from a cult; written by a former cult member) Shepherding, C.A.N. Packet Conway, Flo and Jim Siegelman, Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change Conway & Siegelman, Study on Snapping; Science Digest, 1982 Patrick, Ted, with Tom Dulack; Let Our Children Go!; Clarke, Irwin & Co. Ltd., 1976 Sargant, William; Battle for the Mind Stoner, Carroll and Jo Anne Parke; All Gods Children: The Cult Experience - Salvation or Slavery?; Penguin Books Lifton, Robert J.; Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism; Lifton, Robert J.; The Future of Immortality and Other Essays for a Nuclear Age Bufe, Charles; Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure? Porterfield, Kay Marie; Blind Faith: Recognizing and Recovering from Dysfunctional Religious Groups Enroth, Ronald; Churches That Abuse Zimbardo, Philip and Ebbe B. Ebbesen; Influencing Attitudes and Changing Behavior; Addison-Wesley Publishing Co. Tobias, Madeleine Landau, and Janja Lalich; Captive Hearts, Captive Minds: Freedom and Recovery from Cults and Abusive Relationships; Hunter House; 1994. Ross, Joan and Michael Langone; Cults: What Parents Should Know; Carol Publishing Group (American Family Foundation) Rudin, Marcia R. (Ed.); Cults on Campus: Continuing Challenge; AFF & ICEP Dellinger, Robert W.; Cults and Kids: A Study of Coercion; The Boys Town Center Fromm, Erich; Escape from Freedom Kildoff & Javers; The Suicide Cult Jai Maharaj Subj: I like Astanga yoga, not SYDA Date: 96-05-22 09:52:03 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, I endorse the pursuit of religion, faith, and inner peace. What does SYDA yoga have to do with these things? Let's use astanga yoga as a guide (for context, please read the items in the Hinduism library on SYDA, including the New Yorker article listed in the bibliography): ************** 1. nonviolence (ahimsa)--guns, slashing of tires, sadistic verbal battering, severe beating of Abhayananda, threats of castration, etc. 2. truthfulness (satya)--"When I repeated Swami Chidvilasananda's denials about women complaining to her, Mary, the woman who says the guru seduced her in South Fallsburg said, 'Well that's an out-and-out-lie." (Rodarmor, 110). Denials of everything, coverups, lies, lies, lies, etc. 3. nonstealing (asteya)--dakshina money spent on abortions, jewels; Swiss bank accounts; making Nityananda sign BLANK PIECES OF PAPER (see Lis Harris's New Yorker Article); ghastly prices for everything; automatic monthly dakshina payment cards, etc. 4. chastity (brahmacharya)--Give me a break! I'll spare you even a summary of the SYDA sex story, since a summary would still run volumes! 5. nongrasping (aparigraha)--This, perhaps more than any of the others, DOES NOT fit SYDA. Nongrasping means that one has overcome the need to extend the radius of the ego and encroach upon the "life space" of others. More than even money, a psychotic need for total control and domination of disciples is behind the decisions of the gurus, in my opinion. 6, 7, 8. Dharana, dhyan, samadhi--First, the shrieking banshee tapes in the meditation halls make it impossible for anyone to concentrate! Sensory bombardment is used to disorient and destroy concentration and sense of identity, after which information control is used to brainwash. Overworked sevites scarcely do spiritual activities such as meditation, but, rather, run here and there in a state of shell-shock, hopelessly trying to do what their sadistic overlords are demanding of them. Long-term cult members complain of the inability to concentrate and of a loss in reading comprehension--among other problems. These problems can take years to recover from. Outer circle people are busied in auto-brainwashing seva and "spiritual-practices" regimens, in which they appear to be scatter-brained idiots, chickens with their heads cut off, bereft of will, void of an identity-center. GUIDED MEDITATION SCRIPTS turn SYDA's group meditations into high-pressure brainwashing rituals, in which the recognized techniques of hypnotherapy are directed at the sheep-like disciples who lap it up like unwitting suckers. ************ A 50 cent used pamphlet on Eastern spirituality, combined with sincere interest and some self-discipline, is a better "guru" than this mad organization. Let's cool it with the mixed messages, let's stop attributing to SYDA spiritual properties it does not have. Subj: Recruiting therapist stooges Date: 96-05-22 11:32:23 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear Dissent222, Thanks for the information about the <<<2:30 Psychotherapists Panel: "How Can We Share Siddha Yoga with Clients?">>> Case histories, discussion, small groups and sharing.>>> CASE HISTORIES! Case histories of "sharing Siddha Yoga with clients," case histories of zombie recruitment activities? Good grief! Freud is rolling in his grave. What happened to professional ethics! <<>>--Small group meetings are ideal settings in which "oldtimer" therapists with dirty hands can induct "green" therapists into their unethical society of zombie-recruiters. Small groups = peer pressure brainwashing. No doubt they'll pull out the "small group" brainwashing techniques that were perfected in activities such as "center leader" retraining. <<>>--"Sharing" of how to "share Siddha Yoga"? Sounds like more standard mind control. My guess is sharing here will function as a bonding ritual. Hearing "oldtimer" therapists talk comfortably about using their professional office for zombie recruitment will neutralize the impression of professional ethics that may be in place in the minds of "newcomer" therapists. MY HYPOTHESIS: This workshop is about recruiting therapists! About training therapists to become SYDA-stooges, who will use their professional identities as a cover! So, this seems to be about recruiting stooges--who will then go out and recruit zombies. What we need now are workshops on how to recruit "trainers" who will recruit stooges who will recruit zombies. Then a workshop on how to recruit "trainer trainers" who can recruit trainers who will recruit stooges who will recruit zombies. Then a workshop on how to recruit . . . Subj: "Therapy" as "yoga" Date: 96-05-22 19:26:28 EDT From: Cker Howie, did you not know that these "conferences" for the mental health professionals have been going on for years? I remember hearing about one in the early 80s, and I believe they have been offered fairly regularly to such practitioners. They are NOT ordinarily listed in the regular summer brochures. A NYC psychologist and SY meditation teacher has offered scholarly presentations to the professional community on "spirituality and meditation" and a large number of his clients are now in SY. He would be a likely candidate for this summer's panel. The *first* time I *ever* saw a picture of Gurumayi (of her at the 1982 Patabhishek - successor installation) was in a *therapeutic* setting with this therapist. He (showing me the wallet-sized photo): "Isn't she the most beautiful creature you've ever seen?!" Me: "Uh, she's ... BALD!" When I later began participating in SY, I received very specific strokes from him about how open and loving and welcoming I was becoming. (Image: Bliss Bunny distributing sweetness and light). When he found out I had been attending satsang, his response was, "Ah, I *knew* something was different!" I felt the thrill of being recognized by my therapist as someone who was becoming a healthier, more loving person - and all because of my involvement in SY, his chosen path. This therapist, prior to his involvement in SY, was scrupulous in denying clients access to information about his personal life. His professional distance eroded gradually. Early on, if a comment arose during a conversation at the ashram which even bordered on a "therapy issue," he would quickly absent himself. When it happened between us one time, I was initially offended, but then I realized (correctly, I might add) that it was inappropriate for me to converse with him at the ashram (even as a "samskara") some concern on which he and I had worked together. As time went on, this therapist began to engage in some personal activities with the community of client-yogis, and a SY "context" developed in my approach to my work with him. I thought this was OK because this appeared to me to be the most fortuitous marriage, combining all my "inner work" under a mantle of grace. I'm sure I'm not alone among his clients in coming to the conclusion that I would win his approval, be considered an "advanced," if I presented my problems, interpreted my experiences, and reached resolutions ("breakthroughs") within that context. In order to win and keep approval, I began to hide things about myself from my therapist and others in SY that were, to say the least, "inconsistent" with the teachings, including my doubts about SY. After all, aren't most issues that arise in therapy mere products of negative thinking or wrong understanding? Psychological well-being took a back seat to "enlightenment" as the goal of therapy. This defeated the purpose of therapy *and* yoga, but how could it *not* happen when a therapist allows his and his client's personal stake in a corrupt cult to become a factor in a therapeutic relationship? (continued) Subj: "Therapy" as "yoga" 2/2 Date: 96-05-22 19:27:45 EDT From: Cker It *is* the client's responsibility to be honest in a bona fide therapeutic relationship. It is the therapist's responsibility to maintain professional distance. I'll grant that neither of us met our responsibilities in this situation. But both considerations, and integrity itself, become secondary when both the client and the therapist are members of a cult which has at its core a conspiracy of silence, a "big lie." Both my therapist and I, heavily invested in SY, agreed by our complicity and lack of honest inquiry to respect the code out of loyalty to the master. My therapist used to be a master at pointing out when and with whom I was being manipulative, but he was unable to see it within the context of SY. I dare say there are few more effective disguises that can be assumed by a client to protect his neuroses than cult-think that the client knows he shares with the therapist. It happened, in my case at least, that the demonstration of improvements in "understanding," rather than the resolution of psychological issues, became the measure of progress in my "therapy." As I learned the jargon of the spiritual path, it became easier and easier to manipulate the process. In fact, it was a new version of the "performance" game I'd been playing all my life. I had found a shortcut around real issues that my previously very discerning therapist could not detect. People (at least in SY) thought I was a very nice person to be around. And I was - for them. *Living* with me, now *that* was (and is, I'll admit!) a different story. The contrast between my "yogi" self (reserved mostly for SY events) and my "bhogi" self (the side not as guarded about my flaws, which also swears when angry and includes meat in the definition of "prasad") became painfully obvious even to me. I spent tremendous energy, and became irritable, anxious, and guilt-ridden, trying to maintain this facade. My family was painfully good at pointing out my inconsistencies. One time, I explained to my seven-year-old that we had to clean his bedroom because the Mandali was coming and this person, who would take over his room for the duration (thereby infusing the very coils of his mattress with shakti) was "special." Without hesitation, he replied, "But, I'm special too." To this day, his remark pains me. Talk about "duality"! "Exit counseling"? Fagetabotit. If you leave the cult you share with your therapist-father, you lose him *and* your guru-mother, guru-grandfather, guru-great-grandfather, and all your guru-sisters, -brothers, -cousins, and -aunts and -uncles, Death might seem preferable, and apparently might be at least threatened if your leaving is enough of an embarrassment, if you consider the experience of Michael Dinga as described to Lis Harris. I'll wager that "Maintaining the Illusion of Professional Distance," euphemistically titled of course, will be a major topic at the conference this summer. Forgive me for this gut-spilling, but when I contemplate the issues raised in this forum, I find that the most effective way for me to endorse the truth is to relate how it happened to me. Subj: therapy - NOT Date: 96-05-23 03:47:13 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear CKer - Your account of therapy with a syda recruiter is pretty chilling. The old fashioned phrase is "contamination" of the therapeutic relationship, which is apt here, I think. I imagine this therapist you mention subtly pushing syda like a drug-pusher. "here take this, you'll feel better - take some more - more - ahh! now you're hooked" And the therapist office becomes an opium den. Of course, therapists who recruit lots of dakshina-forking-out clients get brownie points - they might even get to speak publicly at a syda conference about their success story. "How I Manipulated and Subtly Controlled My Clients With a Covert System of Rewards and Punishments Based on Their Professed Devotion To My Guru - And How Doing So Brought Me Special Attention From the Guru, Further Reinforcing My Narcissism". They left that off the conference brochure, but it still reads loud and clear. I hope someone reading this goes incognito to the therapist conference this summer - July 20-21 - and reports back. Because I bet GM's talk to introduce the conference will follow the typical pattern of all her recruitment and maintenance talks: icky sweet seductive stuff to start; then bash everyone present by referring to how inadequate they are and how badly they do their lives; then suggest how to solve that problem - by giving much much more to the guru, including giving her more recruits. When a therapist is so seduced and duped and manipulated himself, by the syda rewards and punishments system, what can s/he really be offering her/his clients? Subj: Cker's therapy Date: 96-05-23 08:45:23 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Cker wrote, << In order to win and keep approval, I began to hide things about myself from my therapist and others in SY that were, to say the least, "inconsistent" with the teachings, including my doubts about SY. >> In this situation, who was providing therapy for whose anxiety? Clearly, your behavior was a form of therapy for your therapist's anxiety which he had transformed, syda-style, into denial. In an implicit way he must have let you know that he needed you to help him, while you paid him to participate in that relationship. Did you ever wonder who needed therapy more, you or your therapist? His psychic neediness led him to the magic kingdom before he recruited you, and apparently he remains lost within it after you've left. You never required falseness from him, while he clearly required it of you. You came to him with your perceived need for therapy but you were and are, clearly, the more real person. You are much farther along the road of the *real* sadhana than he is. I think recognizing that will lead to more human dignity than anything he gave you. Too bad you can't send him a bill for your therapeutic services. Fibonacci Subj: SYDA Therapy Date: 96-05-24 07:26:24 EDT From: BVena Just a note about my ex SYDA therapist. Oddly, a dreadful illness could be saving people from an abhorrent nightmare. He tells his HIV positive clients "The ashram is not for sick people." He is also the person GM sends "New" people to if they ask questions about being gay in the darshan line. I can't imagine that there would be a problem here, could you? Think about someone you view as God sending you away because you are unclean. This is consistent with the general lunacy, but ethical? OOPS, I mentioned ethics and UberGuruMayi in the same post. Any ACT UP members lurking out there? Subj: more therapy 1 of 2 Date: 96-05-24 08:04:39 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear CKer - I'm still mind-blown by your description of the unethical, unprofessional practices of the NY syda-devotee therapist you described in your 2-part post. At least he isn't the NY syda-therapist who also invites folks to her channeling sessions, where her 19th century English lady personality, by some strange coincidence, speaks in Gurumayi quotations. The fact that this therapist was a wannabe actress years ago might account for her "Importance of Being Earnest" stage mannerisms. You've made so many very important points, I'd like to comment on a few: >" When I later began participating in SY, I received very specific strokes from him about how open and loving and welcoming I was becoming. (Image: Bliss Bunny distributing sweetness and light). When he found out I had been attending satsang, his response was, "Ah, I *knew* something was different!" I felt the thrill of being recognized by my therapist as someone who was becoming a healthier, more loving person - and all because of my involvement in SY, his chosen path."< So the therapist, who is acting as a procurer for his guru, abuses his power over his clients by rewarding them for their compliance and accomodation. In other words, by rewarding their adoption of a false self and encouraging the sequestering of their true self. In this way, the syda-therapist fulfills his mission to recruit more devotees and enhances his status as a favored person in the ashram, who gets strokes from the guru. That is, if the clients he recruits are attractive middle-class types with some money to spend, or else the willingness to do plenty of slayva. WOW. Isn't that precisely why so many seek therapy - because they had no choice as children but to learn to comply and accomodate, and had to hide their true self in the process? But in your scenario, as you struggle to find and express your true self, you run up against a false self therapist who trains you, once again, to hide the true self and display the false, accomodating self - as Fibs put it, to meet the therapist's requirements. What a sad, sad mess. >"In order to win and keep approval, I began to hide things about myself from my therapist and others in SY that were, to say the least, "inconsistent" with the teachings, including my doubts about SY. After all, aren't most issues that arise in therapy mere products of negative thinking or wrong understanding? Psychological well-being took a back seat to "enlightenment" as the goal of therapy. "< If a therapist encourages clients to think that the issues that arise in therapy are mere products of negative thinking or wrong understanding, he is not a therapist, he is a moralizer, a teacher, and a person who has not dared to face himself in a real or full way. He might as well just be saying, "oh that's hogwash, get over it." Or "don't think about that today - think about that tomorrow - after you've given more dakshina and done more slayva. After all, tomorrow is another day." see part 2 Subj: more therapy 2 of 2 Date: 96-05-24 08:05:29 EDT From: Dissent222 part 2 Issues that arise in therapy should be carefully explored and elaborated and permitted to emerge from hiding. The meaning of the issue, what function it has served, why it has been needed, how it came to be established - this is what the therapist slowly and empathically helps illuminate. The therapist should not be speaking from a place of higher power and authority (that is not what his training confers), not be offering rewards and punishments for compliance, not making moralistic judgments by dismissing issues with the slogan "wrong understanding". As obvious as this may be, it's just a sad fact of life that there are many incompetent therapists who do exactly these things and make a bundle. The issue here is relationship: the syda therapist, trained to keep eyes strained upward at all times, gazing up at the guru, is not looking at his client. The client, like all of us who come to therapy, wants to try to understand and heal and develop the ability to be in fuller, truer relationship to self and others. Getting trained to dismiss issues as "wrong understanding", and to mask the pain of isolation and aloneness by focusing instead on looking up at the guru, is a tragic, cruel distortion and manipulation of the therapeutic process. ">My therapist used to be a master at pointing out when and with whom I was being manipulative, but he was unable to see it within the context of SY. I dare say there are few more effective disguises that can be assumed by a client to protect his neuroses than cult-think that the client knows he shares with the therapist."< How manipulative this therapist is. Pointing out your manipulativeness while steadily manipulating you to fulfill his needs, allay his anxiety, give him what he wants - the feeling that he's a good therapist with the power to win recruits and influence people. Whatever talent and motive this therapist may have had has become badly distorted by the syda game. Forgive me if I'm belaboring all this, but CKer, your posts really struck a nerve. Being a therapist is hard work, it means inviting, tolerating and containing intense feeling. If a therapist becomes frightened and anxious about his own feelings that are triggered by working with clients, he might seek a short-cut to numbness - and many therapists drink or do drugs or have sex with clients as part of their avoidance and control routines. And others do SYDA with their clients. As syda devotees, a part of us always knew that by gazing up at the guru, we were denigrating and isolating ourselves - and were caught in a trap. The "bliss of devotion to the guru" is a mask - worn by therapists, swamis, darshan panel members, center leaders, ashram managers - - that is worn to hide one's fear, numbness, emptiness and feeling of being trapped. A therapist wearing the SYDA mask will be the blind leading the blind. Subj: Classic example of SYDAspeak Date: 96-05-25 14:15:11 EDT From: HowieSmJr Dear AOL readers, For your convenience, I am reposting a Hinduism folder response to Charlie47 here. It illustrates how the SYDA prohibition on the appearance of "negativity" in speech actually fosters sneaky, backhanded speech habits--and, by transitivity, a sneaky, backhanded way of thinking. I know this is something most of us know too well and can easily recognize, but I thought I'd still post this because it is indeed a sterling example. Subj: Re:Living in a fantasy world Date: 96-05-25 14:06:02 EDT From: HowieSmJr Dear Charlie47, you say <<>> Charlie, do you really wonder? This is clearly disingenuous, like so many of your messages. Isn't this what you are trying to say: --"I know that I live in a fantasy world, whereas "certain other people" (one or more SYDA critics perhaps?) do not know that they live in a fantasy world." Are we to presume, then, that your subtext is, "others do not understand 'reality' as well as I do, and my pregnant, rhetorical question (above) is my spiritual way of 'teaching' them, of putting them in their place, of rebutting them"? Charlie, please just say what you mean, and drop the disingenuous (sneaky) tone, the rhetorical questions, and the backhanded critiques masquerading as detached proclamations of personal philosophy. You have an audience in mind--including critics--when you write. Fine. Admit it, and move ahead. Direct speech is a form of honesty--in my opinion. Subj: The draining of Lake Nit. Date: 96-05-25 20:37:40 EDT From: HowieSmJr WARNING: SYDA HUMOR BELOW--YOU MAY LOSE YOUR SHAKTI IF YOU READ BEYOND THIS POINT Dear AOL readers, Some have wondered if I, HowieSmJr, am actually an AUTHORIZED channel for the spirit of HowieSm. To dispel all doubts, and to make believers of you all, here is an AUTHORIZED joke channeled from HowieSm (who is still on the other side, in the land of the TOSsed). Q. Why did ZsaZsaMayi (not Gabor) order Lake Nityananda to be drained, (despite the environmental consequences)? A. She tried to walk on water, failed (splash, glub. . .glub. . . ), and THEN GOT P---ED OFF. Subj: Re:The draining of Lake Nit. Date: 96-05-25 21:09:37 EDT From: BVena LOLOLOLOL.....".OOOOHHH NOOOOOOO my shakti is going. What a world what a world!."...I melt under witch hat. Subj: Spring 1996 Gnosis Magazine Date: 96-05-26 12:24:31 EDT From: Agni123 I have been enjoying the posts. Thank you every one. Thanks also for the recommendation to read the article “Face to Face: Confronting the Guru-Disciple Relationship” by Ihla F. Nation in the spring 1996 issue of Gnosis magazine. This article contains a lot of helpful information and adds to the list of publications which present SYDA in ways that must be considered by any serious seeker. It includes a useful subsection on “choosing a teacher” from the book “Spiritual Choices: The Problems of Recognizing Paths to Inner Transformation” by Anthony, Ecker and Wilber, (eds), published by Paragon House, 1987. I have not read this book but intend to. I just want to quote here a quotation from the Dalai Lama from the Face to Face article. He has said, “I recommend never adopting the attitude toward one’s spiritual teacher of seeing his or her every action as divine or noble. This may seem a little bit bold, but if one has a teacher who is not qualified, who is engaging in unsuitable or wrong behavior, then it is appropriate for the student to criticize that behavior.” I found it very helpful to read this quotation as it supported what I have done concerning the immoral SYDA gurus. The article discusses devastated, former SYDA disciples some of whom left SYDA when Muktananda’s sex life came into the open and quotes Stan Trout, one of Muktananda’s former swamis, as saying “there was no recourse but to leave, for the guru was the sole appeal.” The article continues “the Dalai Lama explains such situations by saying that while ‘part of the blame lies with the student, because too much obedience, devotion, and blind acceptance spoils a teacher, part also lies with the spiritual master because he lacks the integrity to be immune to that kind of vulnerability.’ ”. I agree with the Dalai Lama and add that one cannot of course “blame” students who are youngsters. I refer here to the many children and adolescents who have been raised by their parents or guardians to place total trust in the guru. Certainly one must realize the personal responsibility that one bears in recommending a guru to any one, adult or pre-adult. Unfortunately I have learned this the hard way because I have in the past recommended SYDA to friends some of whom remain deeply embroiled in it. I feel this is a responsibility that I must “own” and I do. This is only part of the article’s most interesting contents and I recommend it. It would be nice to have in one place a list of the many various readings that have been recommended on this board. I have followed with great interest and concern the information being revealed about SYDA and therapists. As all of us who have been in SYDA know a very high percentage are “therapists”. I have not doubt that many of them refer their clients to SYDA and I find this most disturbing. I know other health professionals who do the same thing. It is so tragic to see vulnerable people being fed into an abusive system. Best wishes to all’ Agni Subj: Re:Spring 1996 Gnosis Magazine Date: 96-05-26 18:50:37 EDT From: HowieSmJr Dear AOL readers, I also just read the Gnosis article on the pitfalls of guru-disciple relationships in the U.S.A. The article points out that it is psychologically unhealthy to have an inaccessible guru whom you scarcely know, and have no chance of ever really knowing. The author uses SYDA's "outer circle" as an example. To believe that some remote stranger (the guru) is the agency behind significant changes in your life, and behind your "inner guru" experiences, is not good--argues the author of the article. The author notes that, for SYDA, the emphasis on the "inner guru" goes hand in hand with the need to manage large numbers of disciples. The author also briefly notes that SYDA's system fosters unhealthy magical thinking, regarding disciples' imagined spiritual connectedness to remote personages. In short, the author recognizes that outer circle SYDA disciples--not just the residential ashramites--are in trouble. Hrdaya, thanks for the recommendation. Subj: Its been a hard week Date: 96-05-27 02:18:54 EDT From: Violet1884 This past week I have been having what in my SYDA days I would of called a “kriya” - however, reality has taken a hold again! I have been very sad and have being going through what I can only understand as part of the grief reaction to “losing my religion”. I know enough about grief to know that its symptoms come in waves and that sometimes the reality of what is happening is clouded with disbelief and delusion. I have been haunted with thoughts that perhaps things are not as bad as I think they are and that perhaps I am “making a mistake” in rejecting this path in my life. Fortunately I have had a few friends to talk with and I have enough intellectual ability myself to see this for what it is. However, it has been painful. I miss the old days of having a “safety net” securely in place. Of having ready explanations for everything and having a buffer against every hurt. This is what I have felt - and yet the truth is that those “old days” were not so great. As I have already shared on this board, I was severely depressed while I was heavily involved in SYDA - a depression that has entirely lifted since I have left SYDA. I experienced a great deal of passive aggression directed toward me and observed it directed toward others. I was continually aware of the dishonesty in the communication around me. I was also aware of a lot of the unethical things that happened in SYDA that later came out in the New Yorker article. SYDA is not a healthy place for me to be and nor has it been a healthy place for many others. Howie, you seem to be currently making a distinction between the experiences of the “inner circle” and those of the “outer circle”. I suppose I would be someone who was somewhere in between those groups. I did not live in the ashram permanently however, I went to see the guru a lot and was known personally by her. I was assigned “close” seva when I was at the ashram and at one point was on the SC list. I was never treated badly overtly but I was certainly exposed to the mind control that is such a basic part of the system. In some ways I think this kind of abuse could be harder to deal with because there is nothing to grab a hold of. Passive aggression is SO slippery. So during times such as I experienced last week, one wonders if one is making it all up! Does all this make any sense to anyone else? Thanks for being here. Violet Subj: Outer circle brainwashing 1/2 Date: 96-05-27 09:12:34 EDT From: HowieSmJr PART 1 OF 2 Dear Violet, You say a lot of great things in your last message. Thanks so much for finding the words, and for your incredible openness. I hear you loud and clear, on every point! You say <<>> That's true--I've been doing it because I've noticed that SYDA apologists do it. I'm doing it because I'm trying to address one of their main rationalizations, specifically that: ******** --COMMON APOLOGIST POSITION "SYDA spirituality is authentic and good for OUTER circle people; INNER circle people have trouble because of the organizational structure; after all organizations are made of flawed people. Hence the testimony of inner circle people is not relevant to outer circle people. (*Optional secondary rationalization: inner circle people have BIG EGOS and that is why they fell." ******** People have been using this argument to discredit Dissent and Shridevi, among others. I think this argument is an insulting rationalization that trivializes the very real experience of a large population of SYDA laborers, and it reeks of patronizing spirituality. Violet, I'm with you, actually, and don't make much of the "outer/inner disciple" distinction. The only reason I make the distinction is to debunk it. You say in your message exactly why I think the distinction is misleading: it is misleading because the brainwashing of outer circle people is no less crazy-making than the overt abuse of inner circle people. The difference is (as you mention), outer circle manipulation is more subtle, harder to put one's finger on, and VERY DIFFICULT TO DISCUSS with zombies who don't want to see it. Still, outer circle people's freedom of spiritual, emotional, and intellectual movement is tampered with by SYDA mind control--in sometimes devastating ways. What I liked about the Gnosis is article is they mentioned the "outer circle" issue. The author makes it clear that though SYDA APPEARS more benign--since there are many nonresidential members--it is NOT BENIGN. The author recognized that people think they are safe if they are nonresidential SYDAites. They are wrong. SEE PART 2 Subj: Outer circle brainwashing 2/2 Date: 96-05-27 09:13:42 EDT From: HowieSmJr PART 2 Dear AOL readers, I know what Violet means about having a bad week. I'm worried about the SYDA disciples who are going to wake up one day and realize they had a BAD LIFE--that their circuits have been blocked for years in a SYDA-psychosis feedback loop. When SYDA folk realize they've been zombified for big chunks of their lives, it's crash-and-burn time. Some, upon sensing impending disaster, try to avoid the horror by REDOUBLING their auto-brainwashing rituals! They decide to dig their heels in and stick with SYDA thinking habits with ever greater tenacity. Unfortunately, turning up the juice on the denial/rationalization circuits increases the spiritual/mental/emotional damage one suffers, and makes it even harder to break loose. It is a feedback loop. Denial and rationalization only postpone the inevitable. For people who stubbornly refuse to break free against all instinct and evidence, the feedback loop reaches a kind of maximum. What results is a psychotic solipsism: EXAMPLES FROM CHARLIE <<>> By the way, I like to discuss Charlie's posts, not to single him out, but because he provides the ultimate negative example of what happens to someone's mind if they do not break the "feedback loop" SYDA initiates. He embodies the logical conclusion of SYDA membership. I should say--Charlie has attained the goal. Who wants to be next? Breaking away from SYDA is painful, no doubt. Still, it's infinitely better to live our own truths, and worship God directly without intermediaries, than to wallow till death in a pile of superficially pleasurable, gussied up bullTOS. Subj: Re:Its been a hard week Date: 96-05-27 14:11:57 EDT From: JJanetH2 Violet, it's nice to hear someone who can put their thoughts into words so clearly especially when what we're feeling is so difficult to characterize. The big lie depends on everyone pretending there's nothing wrong. If you don't pretend then they treat you like there is something wrong with you. By the way, I know just what you mean about the passive-aggressive stuff. Your posts are very much appreciated. Subj: The Experience of Shaktipat Date: 96-05-27 18:14:30 EDT From: JungleShe I've had the same emotional struggle with what Gurumayi has said and done as anybody. I'm NOT comfortable with her ignorance. But the essence of Siddha Yoga is the experience, not the doctrines or the personality of its leaders. Everytime a mystical path becomes a religion, it begins to get corrupt. I know that the jolts of shakti that I got from Muktananda, and so many powerful inner jolts of unfolding directional shakti, transformed me from one sick young gal, to a happily insane mystic that sees the perfect pattern of the unfoldment as having so much internal coherence, that I can't doubt that SOMETHING happened that damn sure felt like what the Hindu scriptures describe as all the effects, results, and symptoms of Shaktipat. With all my doubts, and believe me, no body is an over-analytical as I have been (Was that a real experience, was that indigestion, wish fulfillment, etc.), there have been "too many coincidences to be coincidental". I've been watching the process for 25 years now, and it keeps getting MORE amazing. Yet I too, was crushed at Gurumayi's support of the sexual harrassment. The personality self is not the greater self...Could she have let the Shakti slip? Could Baba have slipped? Perhaps so. I dunno. I'm just in it for the bliss, and the meditation, chanting and practices WORK....and the miracles in my life continue to unfoldl Whaddya gonna do? Subj: Re:Its been a hard week Date: 96-05-27 18:48:06 EDT From: Cker Dear Violet, You said, >> I experienced a great deal of passive aggression directed toward me and observed it directed toward others. I was continually aware of the dishonesty in the communication around me.... SYDA is not a healthy place for me to be and nor has it been a healthy place for many others.<< This was my experience also. There was a constant tension between SY/nonSY, things I wanted to do with my family, my friends, my time, and my money. This came out in arguments between me and my husband before every single ashram trip and a feeling of having to reintegrate and myself into, and ingratiate myself with, the family on returning home to convince them that, yes, they were still really important to me. I also hid the amount of money I spent on SY materials and courses. This meant sneaking things I'd purchased into the house, hiding the receipts, trying to seamlessly blend books and pictures and tapes and CDs into my collection without notice. I can spend money on all kinds of nonSY stuff without batting an eye or hiding it. What dishonesty, within myself as well as with others! My best friend had a block, conscious or not, about the fact that one night of the week was reserved for satsang, always proposing activities for that night, or asking me if I'd seen this or that on TV. This was a source of anxiety that completely lifted the moment I made the decision to leave SY. I was not "inner circle." I was very definitely "outer circle," but people knew me at the ashram as a trustworthy and hardworking sevite from the "hinterland." The mind control things definitely worked on me as well as if I had been "inner circle." Sifting through my belongings and purging SY influence demonstrated the pervasiveness of SY influence in my life. One person, told that I was leaving SY, put in a "first dibs" bid for my SY collection of books, tapes, CDs, videos (including some I'd agreed in writing not to transfer to others for any purpose - you all remember the agreement that purchasers had to sign which is no longer used?), puja cloths, jewelry, complete Darshan collection, old Siddha Path magazines (dating from 1981 - you can imagine the contraband contained therein!), and nearly 14 years of the SY Correspondence Course. When I reacted as if this must be a joke, this person assured me that it was a serious offer. I did not, at first, consider selling this stuff. I did not want to encourage delusion or expose the unitiated to something I had come to understand as destructive. However, I began to assemble my SY stuff so I could "clear the decks" for things I was interested in, things that I had thought were expressions of disloyalty or lack of commitment. I thought I'd give it away but felt this would invite discussion my reasons for leaving and precipitate a debate which I wanted to avoid. I thought I'd donate it to the local Center but realized that they would probably think it was "tainted." What influence my ultimate decision was that, using original prices, I calculated that the entire collection had cost me over $6500.00! My spouse was shocked by the New Yorker revelations - and then realized that I had continued spending money on SY courses and materials even after it had been published. We decided that, since I had an offer from someone who knew of the accusations and chose to remain in SY, I should explore the possibility of selling to recoup our loss. This person offered me $800.00 for the entire lot - 12 cents on the dollar. You know what? I took it. What surprised me, as I left the stuff assembled in a pile for more than a week before I got rid of it, is that there is no "hole" in my home where SY used to be. It's filled with life as it is, as I deal with it every day. And, remarkably, I'm discovering a wealth of love and support among those that I'm closest to, and a calm within myself born of the liberation from defensiveness, frustration, conflict, and fear. (Continued) Subj: Re:Its been a hard week Date: 96-05-27 18:49:01 EDT From: Cker I've also begun doing some reading that I would not have had time for, most notably Ken Wilber's newest book, entitled "A Brief History of Everything." One of the things that I've begun to consider for the first time in my life is that my spiritual interests do not need a context of organized religion. This is, in part, how I'm dealing with "getting over" SY. I struggled with this decision to leave for months. I knew I was being dishonest with myself and others each day I spent as a putative SYogi. The conflict inside me was unbearable. As Howie said, "...it's infinitely better to live our own truths, and worship God directly without intermediaries, than to wallow till death in a pile of superficially pleasurable, gussied up bullTOS." Amen! Subj: Re:Outer circle brainwashing Date: 96-05-27 18:50:58 EDT From: Cker Howie says, >>When SYDA folk realize they've been zombified for big chunks of their lives, it's crash-and-burn time. Some, upon sensing impending disaster, try to avoid the horror by REDOUBLING their auto-brainwashing rituals! They decide to dig their heels in and stick with SYDA thinking habits with ever greater tenacity. Unfortunately, turning up the juice on the denial/rationalization circuits increases the spiritual/mental/emotional damage one suffers, and makes it even harder to break loose. It is a feedback loop. Denial and rationalization only postpone the inevitable.<< Spending money apace on SY programs and material, purging my bookshelves of nonSY material that was "distracting" - these are some of the ways I "turned up the juice" to save myself from "fallen yogi" status. It only intensified the anxiety and guilt I felt. As I became more convinced of the existence of falsehoods at SY's core, I could no longer force myself to do seva, and finally gave it up. Experiencing how good I felt doing this convinced me that I needed to do even more to free myself from the lie. I had to make the break. Now on the other side, I can't tell you the relief I feel at being able to breathe truth again. Cker Subj: Re:The Experience of Shaktip Date: 96-05-27 19:07:38 EDT From: Cker JungleShe says >>...the essence of Siddha Yoga is the experience, not the doctrines or the personality of its leaders.... Yet I too, was crushed at Gurumayi's support of the sexual harrassment. The personality self is not the greater self...Could she have let the Shakti slip? Could Baba have slipped? Perhaps so. I dunno. I'm just in it for the bliss, and the meditation, chanting and practices WORK....and the miracles in my life continue to unfoldl Whaddya gonna do?<< This is "I take refuge in the INNER guru" denial. I was advised, and tried to ignore the advice, to test the guru against objective and observable standards of behavior consistent with the ancient scriptural teachings (or what I learned of them in SY), which includes, most notably, celibacy, nonviolence, and truth. What I could see of the guru's behavior is not all there is to that behavior, and I took refuge in that ignorance for a long time. But when I began to hear the allegations from credible sources, and virtual admissions from SYDA people, the test yielded bitter results that I could not wish away with the excuse of "inscrutability." "Slipping" into unrighteous is not on the menu for a being established in the state the gurus claim to have been established in. Baba said so himself! This is not to say that we did not experience something extraordinary in our meditations, while chanting, while honestly giving of ourselves. "Miracles" happen all the time. It's called life on a fragile planet in a hostile solar system careening through infinity and timelessness. Miracles happen to people everywhere, and I'm willing to bet that if JungleShe lived her life according to the ancient teachings called by any other name, those "miracles" would have occurred. Cker Subj: innie/outie Date: 96-05-27 19:48:04 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear AOL readers: I think the recent points about inner vs. outer circle impact in SYDA are really important. Because, as Violet says, the outer circle impact is more subtle, there is not so much concrete material for those in the outer circle to hold on to -- and it is easier to let self-doubt lead to a slide straight back into the mind control. People in the so-called outer circle will say again and again, "that's not my experience." And yet I think many of them, if they were confronted with video and audio coverage of some of the deviant acts of the SYDA gurus, would still say, "well, that's not my experience." I know for a fact that those who are assigned to handle people's questions about the New Yorker article, for example, have previously acknowledged Mutananda's sexual activities with young women and girls. Yet they will tell a person who asks them about that issue, "that's not my experience of Baba." This is the desperate rationale of people who live in fear, who have been made to feel terrified of telling the truth. On the other hand, inner circle people who witnessed abuse and deception, as Howie points out, are accused of lying, having a chip on their shoulder, having big egos, etc. So you don't have much success with those who can't hear, regardless of which circle you were in. I guess what is important to me is that a small group of us here on AOL are finding the courage to tell the truth, although we keep our identities protected, and wisely so. I for one am tremendoulsy grateful to hear what others who know what really goes on in syda have to say, because lord knows, we are not likely to get much support to talk about these issues from our syda yoga therapists, our syda friends, or from official syda spokespeople. In her famous message about "surrender and obedience", GM made it very clear that she loathed people in the ashram who had friends and who attended to human relationship at the expense of their unbroken focus on pleasing her. Wanna read the quote? Here it is: 'Many people form friendships, cliques in the ashram. When they form friendships, they go to their friends for help instead of the Guru. When they talk among themselves they talk about their friends, not about the Guru. Then when they have a problem they have to take drugs." EXCUSE ME???????? Having friends and significant others that I can be honest with is what has saved my life from the syda mess I was in. GM and her insane, hateful messages to the devotees she so desperately needs to dominate and exploit, can go jump in her environmentally incorrect lake. Subj: magical literalism 1/2 Date: 96-05-27 20:07:21 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Referring to a post of mine, Charlie 47 wrote in the devotees folder: << I recently noticed that someone pointed out that I live in a fantasy world. I wonder if the difference between you and me is that I know I live in a fantasy world. >> No, I don't think so. I think the difference is that I try to recognize what my fantasies are and distinguish them from what is real. Everybody has fantasies. Everybody indulges in some magical thinking. It's part of being human. I think the goals are to recognize what is fantasy and what is not, and to see more deeply into the reality of the world. Some people pretend that their fantasies are real. Others pretend that all of reality is an illusion (or a "fantasy", as Charlie says). Both of these positions spring from denial. Real wisdom doesn't confuse what is real with what is fantasy, as Charlie suggests. There is an old story of a disciple who stood in the path of a charging elephant, because he had been taught that all is unreal and wanted to test his faith. His guru, who was watching, ran over and pulled him out of the way. He then told the disciple that he misunderstood the teaching. It's not that the charging elephant is unreal. It's that there's a deeper reality in this world that we do not appreciate if we only see charging elephants and the like. Like the disciple in the elephant story, Charlie inhabits a world of magical literalism, a kind of pop neo-hindu funadmentalism. At least the disciple was being honest about it -- he was willing to live by what he believed. Modern day pop neo-hindu fundamentalists (like Charlie) talk the talk but they don't walk the walk. In the name of wisdom they practice self deception. The problem with syda style magical literalism is that it's not honest. Charging elephants, income tax, ethical behavior, abuse -- all these things are real. They are not fantasy, and the pop hindu teachers who serve us platefulls of magical literalism know it. They put lots of energy into the world -- expanding their empires, silencing critics, spying on devotees, etc. These are not the behaviors of people who believe that the world is a fantasy or unreal, as Charlie pretends. The honest thing to do would be to teach that this world is real, *and* to teach that there is a reality beneath the surface appearance. Many people with good experiences and good understanding have left syda. They left because they recognized that hiding behind the magical literalism of pop hindu teachings amounts to dishonesty and denial, not deep vision and spiritual attainment. They left because they rejected the dogmatism, and the unethical use of that dogma to control, deceive, and abuse. ( See part 2 ) Subj: magical literalism 2/2 Date: 96-05-27 20:08:18 EDT From: Fibonacci8 In our western tradition there have been many great ones who saw beyond the surface reality. Einstein had that kind of vision as much as anyone ever did, and yet he found no need to deny the reality which we experience at the surface. I think this is the real way to "see beyond illusion" -- i.e. to see the deeper reality while being firmly grounded in the common reality of the world. Or how about Spinoza, Einstein's spiritual twin, who saw God everywhere in the harmony of all being. Spinoza found no need to deny the reality of the world. He found no need to dismiss ethics as some kind of fantasy, like Charlie is so willing to do. Or how about Moses who put ethics at the foundation of the new religion he built. Jesus did the same when he recast that religion in a new mold. Those towering human beings weren't lacking in spiritual understanding. They just didn't pretend the world is unreal, that ethics is some kind of fantasy, a confusion of the unenlightened. Is Charlie privy to wisdom that eluded Moses and Jesus? Does he see more deeply than Einsein and Spinoza? I think not. Charlie's magical literalism just doesn't fly. Subj: Re:A positive experience Date: 96-05-27 23:01:32 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Charlie 47 wrote: << Why is there a need to attack anyone that has had a positive experience of Siddha Yoga. >> Thanks for your reply. I think you may have missed the point, so I will spell it out. The point is not to "attack anyone that has had a positive experience of Siddha Yoga". Those of us who post here all had some positive experiences of SY. Then something went terribly wrong. And we were encouraged to persist in our SY involvement far too long because of the atmosphere of dishonesty and fear in Syda. Now that we have left we are trying to understand what happened to us, why it happened, and to grow from here. One reason things went so wrong in Syda was because of the way ancient teachings were distorted for the purposes of deceit, control, and abuse. Saying this is very different than saying, as you do, "I am fully aware that Siddha Yoga was a negative experience for many." That really misses the point. If hundreds of women were sexually abused, do you say, "Well some people had a negative experience"? The point is that the Syda gurus were routinely engaging in and condoning abuse, and covering it all up. Many of us who weren't physically raped were abused in other ways. Again, the point is that SY is a spiritual path which claims supreme human perfection of its leaders while, all along, they conducted manipulative and damaging activities. Deception, manipulation and abuse necessitate recovery. That is what this folder is about. I wrote my "magical literalism" post in response to your post in the Devotees folder. It wasn't meant to influence your thinking or to attack you personally. I was using your post as an example of the distortion of the ancient teachings that many of us are trying to understand and free ourselves from. I wanted to expose the way ancient teachings are used by unethical gurus to advance their worldly agendas. I also wanted to illustrate how fundamentalist or literal interpretations of those teachings enable people to hide from harsh truths. << This selective thinking will serve your anger but will hardly support you in moving on with your sadhana. >> I would encourage you to re-read the posts in this folder carefully. As I read these posts, I cannot help but be struck by how much sadhana is going on here. If sadhana can be measured by the progress people make in their inner growth, I can only conclude that much sadhana is going on here, and that it is bearing much fruit. One great thing that has happened here is that people have become free from the need to experience their personal growth in the conceptual framework and terminology of the corrupt spiritual school they have left. That is why we tend not to use words like "sadhana" in this folder. But growth is growth, and if you can't see it here, I think you might not be paying attention. Subj: Outer Circler Comes Out pt. 1 Date: 96-05-27 23:03:46 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 You remember how they used to say in SY that if you attend a chant and don't sing but sit there enjoying the vibe, you're "stealing the shakti"? Maybe there's some validity in that vis-a-vis these boards. I've been hanging out here since March, learning a lot and going through a lot, without contributing much. Perhaps it's time to be a little more generous with my own insights if they will help others. There must be many "outer circle" people lurking about wondering how all this relates to their experience, thinking they have not been hurt and deluded like those in the "inner circle" -- i.e. those nasties who we always hated in SY anyway, planted in our path by GM to test our sincerity. (I just heard that one again the other day from someone desperately trying to hang on, bee-leev it or not.) Well, I'm as outer circle as I come and I'm here to tell you that, innie or outie, SY has been my raison d'etre for many years. It may have only been an inner life, but it has been the foundation of my life. Violet, I was very moved by your last post. I too have felt like I am in mourning. I have been longing to draw the warm fuzzy blanket of denial over my head and go back to my beautiful, if deluded, dreams. With summer approaching, the attempt to break away gets even more difficult. The upcoming summer courses sound so sexy, as usual. The prospect of sweet darshan encounters, even "firey" ones, beckons seductively. The thought of never again savoring a cup of steamy Siddha coffee, still basking in the reverent afterglow of the Guru Gita, depresses me no end. In the past, I have -- as Howie noted that many folks do -- just gone deeper into the whole unhealthy mess to avoid listening to that other "inner voice" -- the nagging questions and doubts that would not let up from the first day I set foot in a SY center. Thanks to this forum and the testimony of so many people who have been so badly hurt, I can't stick my fingers in my ears and blot it all out with the mantra anymore. Subj: Outer Circle Comes Out pt. 2 Date: 96-05-27 23:17:44 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 As I may have mentioned here, leaving SY for me is a process; I am not "out." I have not yet severed all ties. I'm longing to go back to the ashram one last time to say goodbye to Gurumayi and to my favorite place in the world; I have not chucked the books and tapes, though I am slowly divesting myself of pictures and did stop my slayva. I have not figured out what to say to people about this, though I've discussed it with friends who were always "on the fringe;" there are so many more who are more involved. My family, never very supportive of me to begin with, doesn't even know yet -- I'm not ready to hear their "I told you so's." Practically everyone I love and socialize with, from good friends to healthcare practitioners and even some business associates, is a devotee. It's very complicated, and my deep, deep pain about leaving is somewhat paralyzing. As I said, I was never "inner circle," though I guess I could have been -- I always seemed instinctively to pull back from that kind of involvement which, with all the information inherent in it, made me uncomfortable. I did have some informal Center Leader training, went to SF an awful lot, etc. Even when I was at my most depressed and/or enraged during my stays in the ashram, it still always seemed like the best/safest place to be. I largely believed my own trumped-up experience talks and (sometimes heavily self-edited) journal entries, in which I tended to make Mt. Kailases out of molehills, Bhagavad Gitas out of darshan bops. Reading these boards and corresponding with many of you, I have been forced to realize that it would be unconscionable for me to remain connected to a group that resorts to illegal and immoral practices in order to maintain its mythology. I have had to admit to myself that I have suffered abuse from people in the organization, once or twice from GM herself, and at my own hand (mental self-flagellation)...and that it was not all "for my own good." But I'm not here to say "The whole thing was bad and evil." I did learn so much about myself, did learn to be more loving. There were so many "breakthroughs" if I may use that word, and I believe that whether or not they cam efrom inside me or from "GM's shakti" is irrelevant at this point. I was on a very self-destructive course before finding this first introduction to my spiritual nature, and I think in many ways it saved my life. There were valuable lessons for me in SY, even if the most priceless one of all is that I have to move on. My only real regret is that, in my selfish desire to "follow my bliss," I may have been abusive or untruthful to others. But even there, I am delighted to find that I've got this thing in my heart that the guru supposedly always has for all of us: compassion. I have felt so deeply upset for those of you who have shared your pain here. It is more because of that than because of any injustice done to me that I feel I can't stay in SY. See part. 3 Subj: Outer Circle Coming Out pt. 3 Date: 96-05-27 23:24:18 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 I realize now too how great (if misdirected) is my capacity to love, for I loved GM with all my heart. I still feel love for her despite everything, and compassion too, when I should perhaps be feeling pure, unmitigated rage. I don't really know her, I realize; and she may be laughing all the way to the bank...but she's been living in an abusive system all her life, and that's sad. For me it was a scant 9 years. Sometimes I hate this board for forcing me to face the music. BUt here I'll stay, lest I get drawn back by the siren song of "the Guru's love." I realize I am THISCLOSE to doing just that because I truly, truly want to. When SY was good, it was like an indescribably delicious cosmic orgasm. Like any addiction, it becomes the focus of one's existence. I'll have to find another reason to be on this earth, and frankly, I despair of finding it anytime soon. Pathetic, huh? Well, at least I'm aware of that. For 9 years -- bowing to empty chairs, emptying my pockets into a wealthy cult's coffers, thinking I had the greatest, most blessed life and karma as I gradually lost my sense of humor, my boundaries, my personal style, and my ability to think clearly -- I didn't have a clue as to how pathetic I was. Subj: Re:It's been a hard week Date: 96-05-28 00:42:13 EDT From: BVena Dear Vi You have made a very important discovery. The over all depression you experienced while in SY has lifted. You've had a bad week, sure. But at least you don't have to feel that some maniacal Shiva shill has anything to do with it. There is no one to propitiate, no one to please before you can feel better. Eventually the rapid cycle highs and lows of SY will give way to, for lack of a better word, "normal" thinking. Whatever that is for you now is something yet to be discovered. For me it has been an amazement unlike any other. When I started sliding away from the institutional SY it was because I couldn't put up with the abuse any longer. However I still held that woman sacred for years after. The neurotic loop (thanks for the very clear paradigm Howie) didn't snap until a few months ago, when I finally saw her for what she was. Here's the interesting part. I no longer need mood elevators or valium or any kind of mood altering substance. The pain SY claims to fix is apparently induced by SY itself. This is that overall mental malaise you mentioned. I am now free of it and I have to report, I never knew I could be this happy. Of course I never knew I was unhappy until SY told me I was. I suppose this is trite but it's kind of like quitting smoking. It's a drag in the beginning but one morning you wake up and breath. The birds are singing and you have no desire to do that to yourself again. Hmmmmm there seems to be an addiction element here. Anyway, keep talking to your clean friends. And stay away from those pushers. Good luck Beau Subj: wisdom 1 of 2 Date: 96-05-28 06:36:43 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear Folks - Wow, you guys are really spelling it all out. There's more wisdom on this board in the last few weeks than in 20 years of Butt Rambler's Convolution Course put together. Some of you are pulling out of syda in the last few months. It will be 1yr. 7 mos. since I pulled out, although there were 2 years prior to that of underground rumblings for me. I had doubts from the very beginning, too. Why was I so enraged and depressed at the ashram? Why were the managers and swamis and staff so angry and rude? In 1985, as GM announced that her brother would be stepping down (it was at the end of an Intensive in GSP), I remember looking at her and thinking to myself "she is lying through her teeth." It was all this nonsense about how Baba had only said Nit would help 3 years, how he wanted to get married, etc etc. The real truth was that her brother hated George Afif, who had just pleaded no contest to statutory rape of a 16 yr. old in Oakland. Nityananda didn't want to cover up what Afif had done, but rather open it up publicly. That's when Afif took things in his own hands, engineered Nit's captivity, made death threats against him, presided with GM over the beating he was given by other devotees, and concocted the whole stepping down story - making sure Nit signed away all his rights to his inheritance. (Nit was an irresponsible, womanizing, pleasure loving kid, and I still wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.) As I looked at GM in this Intensive, thinking to myself, "she's lying," she looked straight at me. I looked in her eyes. I still knew she was lying. She looked away. At the end, I got up on the darshan line and did full pranam. That was it. I shut my mind to it all right then. No matter what, whatever lies and abuse I witnessed or was asked to participate in, I decided I'd go along, because I figured none of it mattered as long as she had the power to give shaktipat. At that moment I decided that I would be an accomplice, but I only know now that I was an accomplice to a psychopath. Shaktipat is no longer a holy word to me - any unsrupulous psychopath can grab hold of this kind of power over others and use it for utterly selfish reasons. History's full of examples. If GM and Baba are examples of the full enfoldment of kundalini after shaktipat - WHO NEEDS IT???????? ECCCH!!!!!!! It was 94 when I left, first involved in 1981. Many years lost. Well, I enjoyed travelling all over the world, that was cool. I did develop some skills and talents (in spite of constant put downs and insults and betrayals and sabotage from Afif and GM). And I, too, stopped doing some very overt self-destructive things - like stopped drugging and drinking and sexing. But I traded that for addictive, self-destructive enslavement to a psychopath. We all got swindled, and we even contributed to swindling others. Someone even called me a Nazi once, as I scurried around when Nit first escaped and declared himself a guru. I went to spy on his meetings and inform on any GM devotees who dared to go see him - yes, GM got a list of the names of people, some of whom were banished from her ashram, while others just had Avinash and the security mafia keeping an eye on them. see part 2 Subj: wisdom 2 of 2 Date: 96-05-28 06:38:05 EDT From: Dissent222 part 2 Almost 2 years into this recovery, I'm much less depressed and enraged. Rough patches are always there, but I'm moving on with my life and doing so REALLY much more productively with all my syda ties cut. I am learning how to esteem myself rather than try to disguise my self-loathing with devotion to a psychopath. I am trying to be in relationship to others rather than having the constant hidden agenda of getting people to join and stay in syda - or the constant hidden agenda of trying to be worthy enough in GM's eyes to be included in her world. No more hidden agendas: I'm here to tell the truth about syda, to myself and to others, and to help myself and anyone I can with the process of leaving syda and moving on to freedom. A word on masochism: The pain people think they need to experience while being purified by syda "grace" is chronic, ruminative, circular pain that keeps feeding on itself. You must constantly put yourself down to remain in relationship to GM, who needs you to know how much you need her.The last thing she wants is your enlightenment or freedom - how will she keep shaking every penny out of your pocket if you're enlightened? I know someone who has become almost paralyzed by repetitive stress injury while doing slayva, and who goes on living in the shram, refusing her family's offers of medical care, because she believes her illness is karma and grace and purification and all that folderol. GM should have sent her home long ago, yet she wanders around like a lost ghost, going largely ignored by GM. This is insane masochism and it is induced in all of us by our participation in syda, one way or another. Masochism is the belief that we are better off being controlled and dominated by someone else - it is based in terror of aloneness, in shame about our naked, needy self and in self-loathing. It can be a tiny, latent fragment of our personality, or it can be our whole identity. Leaving syda means facing this piece of ourselves, understanding it, loving and forgiving ourselves, and valuing and becoming proud of our strengths - our personal values, talents, ideals, skills - our self. So please don't beat yourself up, Hrdaya. Can other people please help me support Hrdaya not to keep beating herself up? That's what GM relies on, is our ability to beat ourselves up, to put ourselves down. I'm not willing to do that for her anymore. I took the plunge and discovered I am a really good swimmer. I bet you are too. Subj: I'm not in SYDA! Who, me? Date: 96-05-28 08:25:58 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear Charlie47, You say <<>> Charlie, what do you think it means to be a member of SYDA? In all the big ways, you are an orthodox, card-carrying SYDA member--in my opinion. For example, a few months ago, on AOL you said that you went to see Gurumayi in Oakland. You said that you had some kind of significant life problem that you needed guidance on. You said that you were bringing the problem to her, without holding any preconceptions about her guruing ability. You then said that YOU VERIFIED THAT SHE WAS THE GURU, that is, that she performed a guru function for you, with respect to your life problem. Don't you remember saying all this? Now you say you left the organization YEARS AGO. Nonsense--you seem to be completely saturated in SYDAisms. For example, you say <<>> If this statement isn't card-carrying, I don't know what is. Add to this the fact that a few months ago you turned to Gurumayi for advice, and "shared" online that you "reconnected to the guru in the form of Gurumayi." In denying the fact that SYDAisms are centerstage in your life, are you trying to rewrite history--like SYDA does? Charlie, we all have seen a lot of people who claim to have "left the organization in favor of their inner guru." It is a commonplace, and means little, unless the grip of the cult pseudopersonality is weakened. Charlie, I appreciated your message titled "a positive experience" because it sounded like a person talking. You actually came out and said that critics have "selective hearing" and "anger." I was pleasantly surprised to hear you speak relatively directly. Saying what you feel weakens the cult pseudopersonality, so you should continue to do it. Still, I can't be too optimistic. You see, I went on to the Hinduism-SYDA board and saw that Tinyego-style/Charlie message over there, with the saccharine poetry (which, in its specific context, served to convey a passive-aggressive intent). I guess the cult pseudopersonality always clamps itself back on, with its telltale ventriloquism-parrot passive-aggressive routine. Charlie, know this: we were all in SYDA, and we know all the mental bizarreries that SYDA fosters down to a tee, so you can't expect us to stand up and applaud that old shtick anymore. One more thing. The reason we all know something is wrong is, if you spoke in public--say at your job--like you do online here, you'd end up in a psychiatric observation tank. You must have another way of speaking, I should hope. Please, there is no need to adopt an obviously plastic, bizarre spiritual tone on our account. When someone says "I'm not a member of SYDA," I say: "apply the duck test." If it walks, talks, quacks, like a duck--it is a duck. Subj: The practices work? 1 of 2 Date: 96-05-28 10:37:55 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 2 Dear AOL readers, Well it's time for us to fasten out seatbelts, follow up on Dissent's last post, and tackle this one: Jungleshe says, <<< I know that the jolts of shakti that I got from Muktananda, and so many powerful inner jolts of unfolding directional shakti, transformed me from one sick young gal, to a happily insane mystic that sees the perfect pattern of the unfoldment as having so much internal coherence, that I can't doubt that SOMETHING happened that damn sure felt like what the Hindu scriptures describe as all the effects, results, and symptoms of Shaktipat. . . I'm just in it for the bliss, and the meditation, chanting and practices WORK....and the miracles in my life continue to unfoldl>>> This kind of brainstaining is very tough to scrub off, and many people will never get rid of it. It is not benign, for under it is grindingly low self-esteem. Wild-goose coincidence hunts, SYDA-coached interpretations of unusual experiences, and liberal gobs of grandiosity: time to call BRAINWASHBUSTERS. Coincidences = grace, twitches = purification, emotionalism = mature spiritual devotions? How superficial. What does it mean to say the practices work? I've experienced everything in the books (Devatma Shakti, Chitshakti Vilas, to name two) and continue to experience much--whether I want to or not. I remember SYDA people asking me what was wrong with them because they never experienced what I did. Yes, some of these SYDA-folk were jealous, and concerned over their lack of "experiences," and didn't believe me when I said THOSE EXPERIENCES AND A QUARTER WILL BUY YOU A NOT-SO-GOOD CUP OF COFFEE. They thought I was being YET MORE SPIRITUAL by repeating the party line "don't be attached to your experiences." How brainwashed they were, and are! I was doing nothing of the kind--I was trying to give them a straight answer that would somehow pierce their brainwash shield. Yes, I can play my nervous system like a harmonica. I can get stoned any way I wish. Just say how high, and I can jump there. You want lights? You got lights. You want tandra? You got tandra. Thought-free state? You got it. And the rest. I also have experienced the standard "benefits" in functioning which, like those of amphetamines, are real benefits--but temporary, and not to be made too much of. (An aside: I think that susceptibility to acquiring an intense version of the "shaktipat syndrome" might be more genetically determined than "karmically" determined, that is, on whether or not we are good Boy Scouts and Campfire Girls.) SEE PART 2 Subj: The practices work? 2 of 2 Date: 96-05-28 10:38:03 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 Dear AOL readers, Ingredients of a true believer: a couple of twitches and emotions, and a weakness for podium-babble. I am well aware that the "shaktipat-syndrome" combined with brainwashing platitudes can make one choose to take on a radical personality change. This personality change can be beneficial in those cases where a self-destructive lifestyle is discarded. BUT DON'T FORGET--SYDA IS A SELF-DESTRUCTIVE LIFESTYLE! THE CURE IS WORSE THAN THE DISEASE, except in the most extreme cases. Except for total, total, losers who can scarcely wipe themselves, the cure is worse than the disease. We all are living a constant miracle. For the love of God, let's imbibe that teaching--let's really accept that we are all living in a spiritual condition. People "who didn't take the intensive" are also in a spiritual condition, obviously. What kind of low self-esteem makes us go for the line: "shaktipat is the authorized shortcut to God"? Bhakta says, "The fact that I twitch and feel euphoria (=bhakti) tells me so. . . oh yes, and the glossy brochures, which tell me how to hyperbolically interpret twitching and euphoria, tell me so. Based on the printed explanations, I am a chosen one!" This is hubristic pap that those with low self-esteem eat up with a spoon. Obviously, if you tell people with low self-esteem and no sense of identity that they are the chosen ones (with your glossy brochures), they will follow you anywhere. As for the "shaktipat syndrome," I think it is worth investigating, though party-line noise seems to make that impossible. But I also feel that trying to move from step 513 to step 514 in a game of neurological cat's cradle is a distraction from my spiritual growth. And guess what--the Hindu scriptures say this also. (We all know that the "big experience" is a central hook in the SYDA con, so let's not rehearse SYDA's lip service to the "don't be attached to your experiences" maxim.) I say yes to: devotional feelings, deep commitment to principles of right living, intuition, feelings of spiritual connectedness. To these things I say yes. I don't need to make my life into a WILD-GOOSE COINCIDENCE HUNT to prove to myself that God loves me. I don't need TO GLORIFY hopping around like a frog in the lotus posture to prove to myself that God loves me. I don't need to develop multiple personalities--one of which I show to God--to earn God's love. Sure, I'm not perfect (viz., siddha). But I do have enough self-esteem to see through the line: <<>> <<>> Work towards what end? You've got to have some kind of identity before you can even decide what you are after, what you want to "work" towards. An implanted thought-system is not an identity. There's no spiritual growth there. Subj: Cited for noncompliance Date: 96-05-28 10:39:31 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL folks, Honesty is the best policy, which makes participating on these boards tough, for being honest often means pointing out unpleasant things. How many years did we sit there and not say what we thought just to avoid unpleasantness? Life's too short for that. More importantly, people deserve to get 100% out of us. If an issue comes up and we hold back our honest thoughts, we are being insincere. Nowadays, when people direct that SYDA passive-aggressive manipulative routine at me, I just tell them what I think directly, and let the chips fall where they may. I refuse to be maneuvered like someone's "Barbie-Ken doll," I refuse to be a "supporting cast member" in a weird charade which is designed to keep individual and worldwide SYDA brainwashing in place. In short, online I often "fail to comply per the SYDA usual." Friends, many thanks for understanding and for allowing me a forum for my "noncompliance." Dissent says <<>> I second this by saying to you all: thanks for making this a place of honest discussion of SYDA. (I was going to write "a place of honest SYDA discussion," but decided against it since "honest SYDA" is an oxymoronic modifier!) Subj: Shaktipat shortcut must-thinks Date: 96-05-28 12:31:06 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Those who believe that SYDA shaktipat is a somewhat foolproof, self-directed, and evolutionary energy (per party line) MUST THINK THAT: 1. Exs with a dozen or more years of SYDA experience who took intensives must be somehow defective, are null and void, and are fallen; why else would the divine shakti miscarry? MUST THINK THAT 2. There must be a lot of defective people, since SYDA recognizes no one as self-realized (except Gurumayi), even though the scriptures say anyone with shaktipat will become realized in 3n years (n being an integer from 1 to 4). MUST THINK THAT 3. They, unlike the defective masses, are not defective and are DOING SYDA THE RIGHT WAY, so will certainly "attain the goal"--but nonetheless must patronize and humor the defective so as to not jeopardize their own evolution. MUST THINK THAT 4. Their family and co-workers--who see their (the believer's) condition as one of steady-state infantilization--are spiritually blind, in being unable to perceive the believer's "spiritual evolution." MUST THINK THAT 5. They should ignore the opinions of the spiritually blind, defective, and otherwise inferior, and only listen to those groomed by SYDA or (to other similarly generic New-Age nutzos). MUST THINK THAT 6. Their job, money, relationship, health, and other difficulties are all irrelevant karma, and thus are to be reckoned on a different balance sheet than the one that has marked at the top: "LIST OF REASONS THAT PROVE I AM EVOLVING AS A RESULT OF TAKING INTENSIVES." MUST THINK THAT 7. Everyone in SYDA is karmically-evolved and evolving, even the nutcase who shouts "Ram" inappropriately and hasn't ever been able to hold down a job. That's a lot of stuff that one MUST THINK. It's especially a lot for a supposedly thought-free yogi. (Maybe we can fit another rationalization into the ol' cerebrum if we use a crowbar.) Subj: A dose of wisdom Date: 96-05-28 16:28:09 EDT From: Charlie 47 Thanks for the dose of wisdom folks. I'm afraid that I can't join you in recovering until I realize that I'm stuck in suffering. That would require a major change in my experience. I never was much of a yogi. I was never interested in surrendering to an outer guru. I left the organization when my heart began to feel empty. I trusted what I felt inside. I have never considered Gurumayi to be my Guru. My wife recognizes Gurumayi as her Guru. Whether Gurumayi is true or false she's still a Guru to many. I went to Gurumayi out of concern and respect for my wife. I was able to let go of my judgments and approach Gurumayi with an open heart. That was a major achievement for me. Without going into details I can tell you that her advice was rather vague yet meaningfull. It served as a catalyst in working with our concerns. I'm in the midsts of a difficult period in my life. It is also a period of growth. I recognize the intellectual attainment of many on these boards. I'm afraid that I'm not terribly impressed. Then again, you're not trying to impress me, are you? I know that the world can be viewed either objectively or subjectively. The mechanics of the objective world were described beautifully by Newton centuries ago. The subjective world was validated by the quantum mechanics much more recently. Both views are valid and arguements lead nowhere but where you want to be. I wish you well in your endeavors. You are obviously providing a valuable service for many. This is your seva, if you are serving your heart. This is your folly if you are doing otherwise. CharlieSubj: my latest thoughts Date: 96-05-28 18:20:35 EDT From: Soloflyr11 hi all, i'm still out here happily lurking away. and much enjoying all the new voices. violet, agni, cker, hyrdaya et al. it is just so great to hear your stories and words. i just wish is wasn't such a painful process, but i can say that for me what ever i did go through was more than worth the freedom i have found from leaving. what's odd to me now is how petty, limited, and deluded siddha yoga now appears to me. it almost seems laughable now, except that it is not at all a funny thing of course. the world is just so big, and siddha yoga is just such a tiny speck that appeared to be so big to me at the time. and it is big in the sense of the number of people it's effecting and the many profound ways it is effecting people. but now it is taking tones of silliness to me, or maybe better to say ludicrous. (i guess that some of you have been pointing at that with your delightful comedies) how ridiculous some of the concepts seem to me now. how ABSOLUTELY limited the viewpoint. and how CONTRADICTORY to the "spiritual" values that i have always held to be most important, like honesty, love, nonviolence, peace, openedness, etc etc. instead what i found was deception, secrecy, abuse, violence, conflict, contraction, limitations, rules etc etc.... i see that my motives were pure, my experiences were valid, and my lessons numerous. i see that i was deluded and though that is still a bit embarrassing i also understand why i was so vulnerable, what i was up against, and that indeed what i was seeking was pure. and i still wonder how i could reach those who have no idea what i am talking about..... anyway, i'm just so happy you're all out there. it is so helpful to have each other i do believe. and hard as it may be at times to make the transition, let me just add my voice in saying that it's WELL WORTH IT!!!!! and *that* is a major understatement... love to you all, solo p.s.--see next postSubj: the p.s.'s Date: 96-05-28 18:22:37 EDT From: Soloflyr11 p.s. i, like beau, left sy several years ago, but it's only since december seeing gurumayi and finding these boards that have i really been able to cut the cord and see the truth. these boards really made all the difference in the world for me. before i could say all kinds of things that i didn't like about the organization, but now i do believe i've got the whole picture and no longer have any deluded magical concepts about the reigning queen or her predecessor. p.s.s. IMVHO...remember that siddha yoga does NOT have a copyright on meditation, sanskrit mantras, chanting, chakras or any of that. though i'm sure they would have loved to. it's all free and powerful medicine for those who wish to use them, they do NOT belong to syda.... and neither does shakti and grace. they *are* available for all....anyway, that's how i see it and i just wanted to yell it out one more time.... oh yeah, and i gotta add... that i do meditate. i actually love to meditate. and i love the effects it has on my life. and when i meditate i may have any number of experiences. for example i may feel energy running up my spine. had those kinda experiences when i was with the guru and i have those same ones now with NO guru. the difference being that then i thought it was because of the guru or shaktipat, and now i just see it as my experience, one of innumberable possible human experiences. and now the only thing i miss about siddha yoga is that feeling of community... and of course it was nice to have someone else do the cooking.... well thanx again for the vent. ;-) Subj: Re:Coming Out/Innie-Outie Date: 96-05-28 18:30:51 EDT From: Cker I went through virtually the same agonies that Violet and Hrdaya speak of as I wrestled with the thought of leaving SY. And, Hrydaya, the reference to the "reverent afterglow of the Guru Gita" stirred feelings I thought I had confidently and efficiently tucked in with the free bookmarks at my private SY "garage sale." I have no idea what will replace those moments in my life. Both your posts make me realize again that leaving SY is not some intellectual exercise I'm engaged in, or a defiant adolescent fling. Dissent and Howie, as always, you are the surgeons and the synthesizers, and I thank you for your insights and analysis. Dissent, I appreciate your sharing your story, and I encourage others to do so as well. Responses, public and private, are supportive and important to me. For those of you pining the loss of Siddha coffee and other such exotica, I offer the following: SPICED COFFEE INGREDIENTS: 1 cup water, 1 cinnamon stick, 4 cardamom pods (slit), 3/4 cups milk, 2 cups of strong freshly brewed coffee, 2 tablespoons sugar (or to taste), and a pinch of nutmeg. DIRECTIONS: Bring water to a boil, add cinnamon and cardamom, and cover and simmer over low heat for five minutes. Turn off the heat. Meanwhile, heat milk almost to boiling. Mix milk, spiced water, and coffee. Strain through a fine strainer and stir in sugar and nutmeg. SPICED TEA INGREDIENTS: 3-1/4 cups water, 4 whole cloves, 4 cardamom pods (split), 1 cinnamon stick, 4 slices (1/4" each) fresh ginger, 1 tablespoon Earl Grey and Darjeeling tea leaves (or any black tea), 1 cup milk, and 2 tablespoons sugar or honey (or to taste). DIRECTIONS: Bring water to a boil. Add spices and ginger, cover and simmer over low heat for five minutes. Turn off heat, add tea, steep for 3 minutes. Meanwhile, in another pot, heat milk almost to boiling. Then, strain spiced tea into milk and add sugar. SERVING SUGGESTIONS: Try this at home for a delightful change! Great with the NY Times, Washington Post, any book of your choice, your spouse, your best friend, a good movie, wonderful music, a great view... Yours, Cker Subj: SYDA - Memorial Weekend Date: 96-05-28 18:40:11 EDT From: Agni123 Monday, May 27, 1996 Sincere thanks to everyone for such moving and insightful posts. I wonder if others experienced anything similar to what I have been going through over this “Memorial Day” weekend? For me, Memorial Weekend is always a “Memory-filled, Thought Provoking Weekend.” During it I think of death, wars, dictatorships and sacrifices in many different ways. But the essence of all of my memories and thoughts ... the underlying common theme is LOSSES. So, of course, this leads me to thinking of SYDA losses. Over Memorial Day weekend the television is flooded with war films. I think about the enormous, tragic losses of wars. And as I do I think not only about the losses of human life and homes, but also about the suffering and deaths of millions of animals and trees that happen with wars. To me creatures and vegetation are Holy. As I watch images of bombs dropping, buildings burning, entire cities burning, I think of all the innocent pets (companion animals) dying there. And as I see jungles being blasted and sprayed with defoliants I think of the suffering of all of the creatures and vegetation there. I think of all of the animals abandoned to horrible fates as Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and other people were suddenly torn from their homes and sent to death camps. One survivor told me that the hardest thing for her when her family fled from Germany was she had to leave behind her little cat. This haunts her and it haunts me. So, during wars all kinds of creatures starve and are tortured and murdered, not just human creatures. Also, I think about how air, earth and water suffer during war. And I think about how fire suffers as humans use it corruptly, e.g., in war and also daily to cook the flesh of murdered creatures. For me, air, earth, water and fire are Holy. I learned this from SYDA and am grateful for this awakening. It is among “the good things” that I keep from SYDA as I discard the rest. So, whenever I think about war I think of ALL of the unnecessary suffering that occurs from wars, and I think about ALL of the losses. Wars (an extreme, sometimes global, form of human madness) cause so many losses; so many unnecessary losses ... so much suffering. Every day I thank God that I have been spared having to leave my home and loved ones (human and non-human) because of war. I haven’t had to live through the devastation of being bombed or of having my neighborhood taken over by “an enemy.” I have been greatly blessed to not have to go to war or to live in a war “zone.” For some reason I have been spared this. See part 2 Subj: SYDA - Memorial Weekend Date: 96-05-28 18:41:00 EDT From: Agni123 Part 2 As I think about wars I also think about human corruption. I think of how wars are started by just a few corrupt people at the top (dictators or members of “inner circles”) who stand to profit from wars’ outcomes. These few deceive the mass of ordinary people (the “outer circle”) to get them involved in the “war effort.” Then, the individuals in the masses are the ones who suffer, fight, kill, sacrifice and lose the most. They are caught up in following the leader’s commands and suffering for the sake of the leader. Of course, they are told that all of this suffering “is ultimately for your own good.” Naturally, as I think about dictatorships, manipulation, corruption, prison/internment camps, surviving wars and losses, I (as a SYDA survivor) reflect deeply on the losses I have experienced from following the leader through SYDA’s immoralities. For me, coming through my SYDA inner battles is similar to coming through a war. There are definite parallels, aren’t there? So, this has been a very SYDA-memory filled weekend for me... a “SYDA Memorial Weekend.” Perhaps it has also been for some of you. There have been many moving posts over this weekend. Maybe some of you have been having a weekend similar to mine. I value all of your posts very much and thank you for them. They helped me to get through an emotionally pain-filled weekend. There is so much I would like to respond to and comment about concerning recent postings. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed by being unable to respond to individual posts. If my time permitted, posting on this board COULD become a full time endeavor for me. Of course, this is not possible. So, a lot must go unsaid and this is frustrating. Instead I just say sincere thanks for all that you have given me to think about. Your support means so much! Also, I am deeply grateful to whoever started this board. As a relative new-comer I don’t know who you are or when it started, but many thanks. One of the things that impressed me about SYDA, when I was in it, was the “talent pool” that I found there. (Now I think of it more as a “brain drain” since the talents there are not being used to promote goodness.) People expressed themselves so well and it was impressive. I am grateful to find so much of that here now as real intelligence, real discrimination and real love are expressed. The posts are so sincere, poignant and heart-filled. They come from healing hearts, broken-hearts and it seems that love is greatest when expressed from these sources. See part 3 Subj: SYDA - Memorial Weekend Date: 96-05-28 18:41:37 EDT From: Agni123 Part 3 I have been sustained and heartened by thinking about the post about the little dog adopted from the animal shelter. The love and patience of the person (sorry I don’t have your name at hand just now) caring for this little creature was so tender. I carry with me thoughts of bits from this or that post and that is very helpful. I can feel from the posts the deep goodness of the people who have left SYDA and I believe that the greatest seva (service) we can do is that which is helpful in the world ... like helping a homeless creature. I wish I was up to keeping a record and thanking each of you by name. Sorry I can’t manage that just now. But, thanks Fibs for the humor of your original “Amrit Dream” that inspired my subsequent take-off of it. Thanks for telling me to “Go for it!” when I was debating about posting my “Amrit Dream.” It feels so good to be able to laugh once and awhile about some of this SYDA “stuff.” There was fun and laughter in SYDA and I enjoyed that and miss the fun times. I like to keep that going as much as possible. I enjoy “Swami Rum Rasin” and wonder if he/she has remembered to copyright her/his name. (Ha!) I hope my Amrit Dream didn’t offend anyone. By the way, “Monkey” and “Doubtie” in my “dream” were males. Guess I didn’t make that clear. I find that humor is healing. Sometimes staying too intensely on the serious, abusive side all of the time is too painful for me. I like a good laugh and also I recognize when I’m “laughin’ on the outside and cryin’ on the inside.” CKER, thanks for delurking and for your great posts. I’m hoping that other recent delurkers will continue to post and that more people will delurk. It felt good when I was ready to and did. This weekend I have been thinking a great deal about how really “crazy-making” it is that SYDA devotees totally believe ANY “positive” SYDA-based experiences that they hear, while they also totally deny or question the authenticity of any experiences that they categorize as “negative”. Over and over again I hear SYDA people say, about the numerous reported SYDA immoralities, “But how do I know that what is being said is real? How can I believe any of this?” Yet these same people totally believe any “positive” things that they hear about SYDA without ever questioning the sources. They don’t question experience talks or devotees’ sharings that they view as SYDA-inspired experiences of “the shakti” or God. In all of my years in SYDA I NEVER once heard anyone say, “I don’t believe the person who said that he/she had that experience of God.” Never. Did you? See part 4 Subj: SYDA - Memorial Weekend Date: 96-05-28 18:42:49 EDT From: Agni123 Part 4 Everyone TOTALLY believed everyone else’s darshan experiences, dream experiences, insights, meditation experiences, experiences of Grace, etc. Yet we all know how bizarre some of these experiences can sound, e.g., reports of electricity going through the body, heads “exploding,” visions, out of body experiences etc. Many times I saw people writhing, screaming, sobbing, howling, barking, etc. etc. with physical kriyas. I am not saying that any of these experiences of God are false. I am merely pointing out the absolute inconsistency among SYDA devotees who view these experiences as THE ONLY KIND of experiences that happen in SYDA. For fifteen years local SYDA devotees listened to my “positive” stories about SYDA (e.g., my pleasant experiences with the Guru, during meditation, dreams, etc.) and totally believed in them. They believed what I said, what I was reporting. Repeatedly many asked me to tell these same experiences over and over again. Yet now, as I am wanting to talk about my TOTAL SYDA experience (not just the blissful, positive side) they question my authenticity and my experiences. They treat me like I am a dishonest changed person, yet I am EXACTLY the same person I was before. I am the person they totally and unquestionly believed before. The only difference is that I am no longer willing to censor what I talk about .. as I know they do. It’s maddening isn’t it? Really schizophrenic making ... reality distorting. I know that I am not saying anything new in this post but it has just REALLY struck me so deeply this weekend how an entire half of the devotees’ brains are TOTALLY closed ... as mine was. The half that is closed is the half that examines reality and acknowledges reality and reality consists of positive and negative things ... good and bad. And the reality of SYDA consists of good and bad things. Although I have long recognized this closing off of half of the brain in SYDA ... the half that would acknowledge the wrongdoings if it were being used and were healthy, for some reason just now this awareness really deeply shocks and terrifies me. The shocks and real awarenesses seem to come in waves. They peak and are really intense, sometimes overwhelming, then they level off and I feel safe and lulled. I know this is a normal part of the recovery process, but sometimes the waves are crushing, almost suffocating for a while. See part 5 Subj: SYDA - Memorial Weekend Date: 96-05-28 18:43:24 EDT From: Agni123 Part 5 In some ways recovering from SYDA is like recovering from a stroke. Half of my brain IS learning how to be used again and the neurons and feelings ARE being reconnected. Since leaving SYDA, my morality is emerging as strong and well and that FEELS GREAT! And as my brain function, my integrity return it grieves me to realize how damaged/ill I was and to see my “friends” whose brains remained paralyzed. I put the word “friends” in quotes, because, like many of you, I have come to realize that most of my SYDA “friends” are not really my friends. Now they shun me and many look terrified simply if they see me. Now I represent a treat to them. SYDA “friendships” and the notion of a SYDA “family” are illusions. They exist only as long as everyone continues to play “make believe” or “let’s pretend.” For anyone who doesn’t already know, the “SYDA Let’s Pretend Game” goes like this: “Let’s all pretend that we are really happy although we are being abused by our guru-parents. Let’s ignore what is going on in the guru’s bedroom and in George’s bedroom and other bedrooms and people being publically “flamed” (humiliated) by the guru. Let’s ignore what is going on in the palacial boardroom and in the palacial underground secret offices. Let’s ignore how our donations are being used. Let’s all ignore everything that is REALLY going on and let’s pretend that abuse is spirituality at its highest. LET’S PRETEND. But also, “Let’s crush and ignore and abuse anyone who tries to tell us anything different or anyone who worries about us and wants us to wake up to reality. Let’s abuse people who tell the whole truth. Let’s say that we ‘see God in others,’ but let’s hate and condemn anyone who breaks our bubble of silence. Let’s not explore reality. Let’s live in fantasy and illusion and make that our reality. Let’s pretend that physical rape and psychological rape and financial rape are really ‘spiritual’ and ‘good.’ Let’s pretend that it doesn’t really matter what happens to other people, just as long as we can individually maintain our delusions. And even if one of us is hurt really badly, let’s say that she/he really ‘deserved it’ and be grateful that it happened. (But secretly let’s pray that it won’t be ‘me’ who is the victim.) As long as we all stay in neat lines, sit with straight backs in neat rows, smile and swallow our consciences, let’s pretend that everything is really O.K. Let’s pretend that we are not ‘parrots on poles.’ Let’s pretend that we are free, good, God-loving people and that EVERYTHING that happens in SYDA is great! Let’s say ‘wrong is right,’ ‘abuse is good,’ and ‘my guru can do anything ..right or wrong ..because what my guru does is always right and wrong doesn’t really exist.’ Let’s say, ‘Today’s friend is tomorrow’s enemy’ and ‘Anyone outside of SYDA is bad company.’ Let’s make all of these our true mantras. . Let’s not trust anyone or any information that causes us to think. Come on gang, LET’S PRETEND! And .... if you don’t pretend you are OUT ... go ‘directly to jail’ ... the jail of shunning!” (Whew!) See part 6 Subj: SYDA - Memorial Weekend Date: 96-05-28 18:44:20 EDT From: Agni123 Part 6 Revelations, insights and experiences keep bubbling to the surface of my consciousness. They come from the depths of my SYDA illness. This is all part of the recovery process. Every once in awhile I find that I experience really “KNOWING” something that I have “known” intellectually for a long time ... really EXPERIENCING it totally. By this I mean that from time-to-time a revelation or insight ... an awakening ...comes forth so powerfully that I even feel it viscerally (physically in my body) This is new for me and is a bit frightening. Sometimes it is even nauseating or I feel a knot in my gut or like I’m being smothered. That’s how it has been this weekend for me as I really experienced this awareness of half of my brain having been dead while I was in SYDA. Of all people, I never thought “I” would have disconnected half of my brain. Several times this weekend I heard from various SYDA devotees that they “don’t want to hear about any SYDA problems.” I was told this directly by one “wavering” devotee. Also, a friend (who is leaving SYDA) was told this by others who are trying to hold onto their SYDA delusions in a “white-knuckled” panicky way. (But they no longer come to SYDA programs ... so they are also really “wavering.”) Hearing this “don’t tell me the truth” made me actually feel physically ill. Sleeping was difficult. It has been rough. For me it has been a weekend of REALLY and finally coming to personally view SYDA as a cult. This is a new step for me and it felt both frightening, sad and liberating. Recently I watched on TV the two-part Masterpiece Theater program (Signs and Wonders) about a cult. I wondered about what the author’s experiences had been that were brought to the writing of this. I remember a line about “children lured away by alein pipers ... cult leaders” that I think I heard there. As an X-SYDA cult member it was enlightening and difficult to watch Signs and Wonders, but I am glad that I did. Seeing others acting absurdly and knowing I have also is hard to watch. It is always easiest to identify the absurdities of “others,” but I know that I was too. I’ve been thinking about what I now view as the “atrocities” that are occur in some of SYDA “courses” like the “No Ego Course” and the “Fire Course.” I didn’t take the No-Ego Course but hear horror stories from people who did. Specifically I’ve been thinking about the “Fire Courses” and how the “flames spoke” during those courses. Just before the first Fire Course was given I was told by “an inside source” (a personal acquaintance of many years whom I believe) that underneath the separate fires a gas piping system was installed “to allow George to raise or lower the flames” (by increasing or decreasing the gas supply) to make the flames look like they were talking. Another sham. Another deception. In my view this was an abuse of fire, a Holy element. So at the same time that we were being told that “Fire is Holy,” fire was also being manipulated, used unethically and immorally, to dupe us. Guess what I did? Even though I knew this I paid my money and took the course! Talk about a fool! During it I watched as one devotee was told (over the PA System) to go so close to the fire that her face was burned and blistered! I present my foolishness as a prime example of me being mentally SYDA-ill... half brain dead. I really was. So, I really CAN understand why SYDA devotees continue to prefer to be half brain-dead. I just get impatient that they don’t “wake up” and sad and fearful that they won’t. It is tragic to see people remain in chains when the key to opening the lock and getting out of them lies right before them. It takes courage to free oneself and accept self-responsibility. I wonder what variables make it possible for some of us and not for others. Subj: Wisdom herein Date: 96-05-28 18:44:46 EDT From: MDSNMAN The posts these last two days have been absolutely delightful reading, filled with insight and wisdom. Thank you one and all.Subj: SYDA - Memorial Weekend Date: 96-05-28 18:46:43 EDT From: Agni123 Part 7 Fibs, I liked the way you said it awhile back. You said something like, “Thank God we’ve returned to our senses and humanness. We rejected the magic kingdom and returned to personhood.” There was a great line in the movie “Antonia’s Line”. Something like “Faith should not rule intellect.” Memories, such as the one about the phony “speaking fire,” keep floating to the surface of my consciousness ... like flotsam after a wreck at sea. For so long I believed that “the sea” was SYDA and that I was safe only as long as I remained in it. Now it IS wonderful to know instead that the real sea, the real cleansing sea is God and that it is pure. SYDA was merely an oil slick that caught me up for a long time. I always leave bowls of water outside in case passing creatures are thirsty. I know it is often difficult for them to find water. UnlessI remember to leave a leaf or twig floating on the surface of the water, insects can get caught on the water’s surface tension and eventually drown. From time to time I rescue insects from such situations. Always, as I see them caught on the surface of the water, I think of myself caught up in the surface of SYDA. It looked safe and I was thirsty, but I got caught. Like so many of you, I miss the comraderie that I experienced for many years whenever I went to a SYDA function. It was wonderful to walk in and be recognized and welcomed by everyone there. People’s faces lit up when they saw me, as mine did upon seeing them. We all want such recognition. We all want to be loved and noticed. Margaret Mead said, “We all want someone to notice our comings and our goings.” After leaving SYDA I sometimes watched “Cheers” on television and would think about my happy times of going to the local SYDA center. In a way going there was like going to a familiar, local neighborhood pub. The words of the Cheers theme song say something like, “going where everybody knows my name”. That’s how it was at the meditation center here... everybody knew my name. It felt like going home. Now , in a similar way, it feels familiar and good to enter this board, greet you all, feel welcomed, catch up and “shoot the breeze for awhile.” See you later. Shanti! Shanti! Shanti! Love, Agni Subj: Responses with thanks Pt 1 Date: 96-05-29 02:09:32 EDT From: Violet1884 Dear All: I am just over-whelmed by the honesty and love that is flowing from this board. Thank you all so much. I have read the posts of the last two days with such a sense of gratitude in my heart. Even Charlie47 seems to be making more sense and I accepted his best wishes as being given with sincerity. Tears have come to my eyes as I have read the testimonials of you all and I have experienced waves of emotion as I have recognized myself in the stories of others. I know, without a doubt that I would not have been doing so well in recovery from this 15 year madness called SYDA if it had not been for this board. I want to thank those who have had the strength, courage and honesty to tell the details of their experience and pain. Those posts are so extremely helpful to me and I think those more than any others help me to move one step after one more step away from the madness called SYDA. I think I have left and then I read another moving post and I recognize something still remaining like a cancer within me and I move forward again. Like Hrdaya, I too feel that I must give back for all that I have received and that is partly why I post. I also am helped by the discipline of putting my experiences and feelings into words and I am surrounded with love by the supportive responses I get when I do post. Thank you, thank you, thank you ...... (I’ll just add one more because I became aware of the SYDAism in repeating things three times I will do it four times!) THANK YOU!!. Subj: Responses with thanks pt 2 Date: 96-05-29 02:10:32 EDT From: Violet1884 Part 2 Thank you Jjanet for your sweet message. I hope you are doing OK - hang in there and talk on here when you feel able. I am glad you are around. Yep, the passive aggression was abundant in SYDA. That was the brand of abuse I experienced. Vicious, passive aggression that was directed at me with smiling faces and reverent expressions! Thank you Cker, for sharing so eloquently of your experiences. It does seem that you and I have had some similar experiences. I too am astonished at the financial cost of all the SYDA related things that I have around the house. I am afraid I have to say that mine come to a lot more than $6500!! I don’t know what to do with them. In the meantime they are gradually being taken down and put away. I do feel a wrench each time I take down a picture of Gurumayi, not because of current feelings but from memory of what existed for me when I put them up, years ago. (Also, some of those “one of a kind” photos are very beautiful photos from a photographic point of view.) It is interesting that I do not feel these pangs when I take down photos of Baba. I have no remaining fondness for him. I see him as a sexual pervert who should of been put in jail. I do not miss the presence of such a predator in my house. I would rather have photos of the women who have told of his abuse on my walls and pay respect to them for their pain and for their courage. Anyway, today was a day of a breakthrough! I paid a LOT of money for a tiny pendent that is gold and has a tiny diamond surrounding a photo of Gurumayi. Today I realized that I can take it to a jeweler and have the photo of GM taken out and put in a stone or perhaps a photo of my cat!! That will be a lot better! I also liked your statement, Cker “my spiritual interests do not need a context of organized religion.” YES. That is what I am coming to. As Howie said, "...it's infinitely better to live our own truths, and worship God directly without intermediaries, than to wallow till death in a pile of superficially pleasurable, gussied up bullTOS." My current task is to find this way within myself. The first step is to rid myself of all the extraneous garbage that is floating around from the SYDA years. I also have to sort the garbage from the “good stuff” and sometimes it is hard to tell the difference but I am confident that I will do so accurately. Dissent, I loved what you wrote: “what is important to me is that a small group of us here on AOL are finding the courage to tell the truth, although we keep our identities protected, and wisely so. I for one am tremendously grateful to hear what others who know what really goes on in SYDA have to say, because lord knows, we are not likely to get much support to talk about these issues from our SYDA yoga therapists, our SYDA friends, or from official SYDA spokespeople” Thank you for that. I endorse every word of it. Subj: Responses with thanks pt 3 Date: 96-05-29 02:11:23 EDT From: Violet1884 Part 3 I was there when GM made her “famous message about surrender and obedience". Since reading your post, Dissent, I have been trying to remember what I felt about it at the time. I do know that that statement really stood out for me and that I have remembered it specifically all these years. I do know that there was something that did not really sit right with me when I first heard it but I was so indoctrinated at the time that I was unable to examine that discomfort and to identify the problem. You have expressed it well. I often felt I was on the brink with GM of her asking (commanding) me to leave my loved ones and to come to be with her full time. I DREADED that because I did not want to do it. There were rumblings in that direction. In fact - now here is a story - after I was asked to type in words over existing signatures on legal documents, and I did it - I was asked to come full time - presumably to do more of the same! Thank God I didn’t do it. Thank God I at least held my human loves in high enough regard to keep my pre-SYDA commitments to them and not leave for the magical kingdom. Fibs, you sum this whole thing up SO well with “the point is that SY is a spiritual path which claims supreme human perfection of its leaders while, all along, they conducted manipulative and damaging activities. Deception, manipulation and abuse necessitate recovery. That is what this folder is about.” That is the truth. Nothing would justify the abuses that have and do go on in SYDA BUT somehow some of them would be easier to deal with if there had not been this constantly repeated belief in the perfection of the master. We accepted ANYTHING because she was supposed to be perfect and therefore could do no wrong regardless of how bizarre and abusive her behavior was. Fibs, you also say “If sadhana can be measured by the progress people make in their inner growth, I can only conclude that much sadhana is going on here, and that it is bearing much fruit. One great thing that has happened here is that people have become free from the need to experience their personal growth in the conceptual framework and terminology of the corrupt spiritual school they have left.” Yes, yes yes ...yes. This is indeed my experience. I feel like I am growing in leaps and bounds and the support and love from this board is a great facilitator. Subj: Responses with thanks pt 4 Date: 96-05-29 02:12:01 EDT From: Violet1884 Part 4 I DO join Dissent in offering support to Hrdaya in her struggle. I understand it Hrdaya. I have not wanted to go to the ashram for a LONG time (the homophobia there got too much for me) but I have had longings to see GM. Also from time to time I have had nostalgic feelings about the local center and thought that perhaps I would go there - after all what could be the harm in going and chanting? It is interesting that EVERY TIME I started thinking that way and started making plans to go, some new information could come my way about the abuses of SYDA that would disgust me all anew. I could only understand that as the “universe” or whatever saying No No No ...... NO - stay home and find your own ways of connecting with God. Now, at least for the time being, I am free of these longings - and I understand them and send you my love, Hrdaya, as you make whatever decision you will make for yourself. I also understand the difficulty of leaving the community. You say “Practically everyone I love and socialize with, from good friends to healthcare practitioners and even some business associates, is a devotee. It's very complicated, and my deep, deep pain about leaving is somewhat paralyzing.” I know, I know. I was the same way. Now I have a new doctor ( who is much better than the old SYDA one by the way) and I am making new friends and my business is growing without SYDA referrals. It is not easy, I know that. All I can say is that things are better for me now even though the process was hard. I also, in my kinder moments, I think of GM in the terms you expressed, Hrdaya - “she's been living in an abusive system all her life, and that's sad.” I DO see her as a victim sometimes. AND that can not be an excuse for what she has perpetuated and done. There comes a point that as adults we must all seek whatever help we need to recover from our childhood injuries and take responsibility for our behavior - and that includes so called siddha gurus. You are right, Bvena, I have made an important discovery in that my depression is all gone! In fact when I become sad and nostalgic about SYDA and the old self-doubts creep in, I remind myself of that depression and how devastating it was. I also recite to myself the litany of SYDA abuses and remind myself that sexual abuse and harassment, money laundering, excessive charges, emotional control, personal harassment etc etc etc ..... etc are NOT acceptable and I become thankful that I have SEEN the light. It is strange that while I thought I was growing when I was in SYDA I did not know what that meant. What I experienced in there bears no resemblance to the personal growth I am experiencing now that I am OUT. Subj: Responses with thanks pt 5 Date: 96-05-29 02:12:34 EDT From: Violet1884 Part 5 My experience is rather similar to yours, Bvena. I left the organization several years ago after observing the shocking abuse GM piled on people after the Guru Gita day after day after day. However, I don’t think I REALLY left in my heart until a few months ago when I started reading this board. Even now, each day as I read the posts here I move one more step toward taking back myself! Dissent, I am moved to read your account of the time when Nityananda Jr “stepped down”. I was not there but I was heavily involved in the local center. I was one of the first to hear the news when it came. I saw the videos and heard all the reports. Like you, I thought, “this is not the truth”. Then of course, as we all know, we were told a new story a few months later. I housed the manadli in my home when they came to town to tell us all the stories. They had such graphic stories of the evils of Nityananda and the greatness of GM and I swallowed it all! However, I managed to put all this down for many years by telling myself that GM was the pure one and the shakti had purged out the evil stuff. Nonsense!! They were both as bad as each other! I have been reliving those times since reading your post, Dissent. I am so ANGRY that we were so lied to. I was a sincere, trusting, good person. They had no business lying to me!!! Soloflyr, I am glad to see you back again. The comment from your post that speaks to me is “remember that siddha yoga does NOT have a copyright on meditation, sanskrit mantras, chanting, chakras or any of that. though i'm sure they would have loved to. it's all free and powerful medicine for those who wish to use them, they do NOT belong to syda.... and neither does shakti and grace. they *are* available for all” I know this and sorting out what is SYDA propaganda and what is universal truth is a major part of my recovery process. And I have to acknowledge Howie - you re such a stalwart Howie and I thank you for it. I feel the strength of your writings and I always get something from them And, Agni - your elegance of writing and depth of thought is a joy. Thank you so much - and when do we get your next dream? Thanks for being here. Violet Subj: Growing up 1 of 3 Date: 96-05-29 19:24:39 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 3 Dear AOL readers, Fibonacci8 says <<>> This is a crucial point in my mind. It raises -- the issue of "how to be grateful for the maturation we've undergone"; --the question of "from where did we 'learn' about spirituality"; --the assertion that "even though I am 'out,' SYDAesque yogic practices and SYDAesque mindset (even minus the guru) is 'what did it for me'." About gratitude: Fibonacci points out that "growing up" occurs everywhere, and is experienced by everyone. Yes--other people are spiritual too, even those who did not undergo a "Shaktipat gurukrupa Siddha Yoga journey" (journey?!). I suggest that "growing up" is (part of) what SYDA refers to with the hubristic and grand terms "journey," "spiritual evolution," "breakthrough," and "lesson learning." We grow up because of our humanity (the fact of being human). Gratitude for "breakthroughs" should go to our miraculous humanity--which SYDA tried to cover up with an artificial, personality-denying thought-system. We experienced growth DESPITE, not because of, SYDA. Let's be grateful to the air, water, our parents, whatever--let's live in gratitude. But let's be clear about what was the nourishing soil (i.e., family, friends, our own makeup), and what was the CONFINING, SUBSTANDARD TERRARIUM (SYDA thought-system). SEE PART 2 Subj: Growing up 2 of 3 Date: 96-05-29 19:24:46 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 Dear AOL readers, I bring up this point about "gratitude" for a purpose: to argue that mixed messages about SYDA should not continue to be circulated. Yes, it's embarrassing to drop the mixed messages; that amounts to admitting out loud that "I MADE A BIG MISTAKE, AND I DID A LOT OF REALLY STUPID, MASOCHISTIC THINGS." So we use mixed messages to make ourselves look less ridiculous. But isn't that kind of squirming in the chair a sign of immaturity? I loved Solo's message about friends getting together and laughing about being "IN A CULT": I felt that that was the laughter of wisdom, the laughter of having moved past, the laughter of freedom from mixed messages, the laughter of openness. Why deny it? We were in a crazy cult! In a SYDA ashram, the word "gratitude" connotes furtiveness and duplicity and manipulation. I don't need to explain that to anyone who was in Siddha Yoga. Especially those who took the "gratitude" intensives and courses (darn, I missed out on those "opportunities" to "deepen my sadhana," but I do have an idea of what went on). It's time to unlearn those connotations, and the immature habits of thought they recall and reinforce. Fibonacci is right: PEOPLE MATURE SPIRITUALLY ANYWAY. Sure, without SYDA we wouldn't have our "spiritually superior" vocabulary to talk with, the rumbling sound that sets us apart from the rest of the world. But who wants to talk like that anyway? SEE PART 3 Subj: Growing up 3 of 3 Date: 96-05-29 19:24:52 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 3 Dear AOL readers, I say we matured DESPITE rather than because of the SYDA thought-system. Fibonacci speaks to this point: <<>> I think it is very important to NOT block out of mind and soul all the SYDA years, for they are part of us. But it is a dangerous game to play, the game of selectively interpreting one's SYDA history to put a rosy face on parts of it. Perhaps some do this so as to neutralize the pain that SOBER REMEMBRANCE engenders. But we shouldn't do this. The desire to postpone facing things is exactly what makes a "good SYDA disciple." Let's remember the SYDA years, but in a mature way. Let's hope that we've grown up now, and put aside our childish ways, and childish game of faux-Hinduism. Let's become spiritually renewed, like children, once again--which isn't the same thing as being childishly constipated about the milk that we definitely did spill. Dissent summarizes with this: <<>> Here's an alternate wording for "outer circle" folk: <<>> Subj: courage Date: 96-05-30 08:44:24 EDT From: Dissent222 Hi Cker, Hrdaya, Fibs, Solo, BVena, Mdsnman, Agni, Howie, and Violet: I'm thinking about all of you this morning. You've all inspired me in many ways, I feel strengthened and emboldened by you. Even though we don't all know each other, I admire you all and feel that our communication is meaningful and enriching. I don't need to use the word victim - I know some people don't like it, it has connotations for some that are distasteful. Let's say rather that we have in common a very intense experience that isn't readily understood by a lot of people. That we have experienced a combination of self- and other-imposed psychic captivity, and that we are breaking loose into a new kind of freedom and maturity that is both frightening and thrilling. Finding the words to articulate our thoughts and feelings about our experience is in itself an empowering, self-esteem enhancing action - it is healing. We are, in the act of talking about this, actively asserting and reclaiming our value as human beings. There is a quality now for me, as I read your words, of reveling in the wonder of being human - not of being secretly chosen to be an enlightened being, different from all other unawakened ones - but of being simply, merely, beautifully human. No dots on the head or million dollar saris or pujas on bicycles are necessary - no secret expenditures or drinking of bathtub leavings is required. LIfe needn't be an endless dredging up of shame and guilt for not doing enough or being enough for the insatiable, endlessly dissatisfied Gurumayi. Isn't her endless dissatisfaction with us, on some level, a (particularly diabolical) projection of our own internalized fear? It is very frightening to be in real relationship with real people, and to have faith and trust in oneself, and to take back control from those we gave ourselves over to. It's a good fear though, one that does diminish. But it seems that only by facing these fears, admitting them, learning to live with them and listen to them -- do they get manageable enough for our natural courage and strength to kick in. Trying to avoid them or rationalize them or escape back into some new way of letting others have control over us is NOT a successfull fear-managment strategy. The fear just takes new forms - like Agni's list of the fear and lack-derived do's and don'ts of a syda devotee. I guess my point is that, listening to you brave folks is good. Really good. It makes me know more and more clearly that the land of the free, and the home of the brave, is NOT in So. Fallsburg. IT'S RIGHT HERE ON AOL! Best wishes to all, D Subj: Re:Another Guru (to MiraBaiM) Date: 96-05-30 10:32:59 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, MiraBaiM asks: <<>> ************"MY FRIEND THE GURU," BY HOWIESM******* Yes, I am in two guru relationships right now. The relationship is called friendship. I can pick up the phone and talk to them, and discuss soda pop, and why my chapatis come out lame, and watch videos, and go shopping. I tell them what I think, and they tell me what they think--no holds barred. We don't tend to talk about "spiritual stuff." They do enough of that on the job, when they are "on the clock." These two folks can give dramatic shaktipat by touch, and do so. And they are from a particular cultural background. That's why they and their disciples refer to themselves as GURUS (?!). I cut them some slack because they don't attempt any kind of crazy cross-cultural transplantation. They are pretty orthodox, so their cultural baggage is out front: there is no "false advertisement" or "commodification" (as in SYDA). By the way, they don't charge for their initiations, etc. All that spiritual "stuff" is not the basis of our relationship. The basis of our relationship is just that we are fellow humans on Earth with certain compatabilities, who for some reason hit it off. If I started acting goofy and spiritual on them like their disciples, I'm sure they would slap me upside the face. That's the last thing they need! Obviously, siddha yoga hasn't turned me off on human relationships. I love people! People make life worth living! When this is the case, why do people insist on searching out spiritual "Iron Maiden" (a confining medieval torture trap) relationships? What pamphlet, what kind of early imprinting, causes people to do this? Being on some kind of "self-help-trip" cum "guru-quest" is an impediment to freely loving. Human being should be friends with one another, and allow their relationships to grow in a way that respects each other. In my opinion, RELATIONSHIPS SHOULD NOT BASED ON SOME KIND OF PRECONCEPTION THAT ONE PERSON BRINGS INTO THE RELATIONSHIP, AND THE OTHER HUMORS. WHY THE HANGUP ON PRIVATE FANTASIES ABOUT GURU (tooth fairy, Santa Claus) RELATIONSHIPS? People are spiritual as they are, without us having to impose fantasies on them. We should all be friends with other people; if some people happen to be on a "systematized" spiritual trip--that's fine with me. If the circumstances of their life make them the "boss" in a certain line of work--that's fine with me. I'm tolerant within reasonable limits. I have no need to make other people exactly like me. And I have my own eccentricities which my friends accept. I am also acquainted with other "gurus (?!)," but they are partially "on a bad trip" so I don't consider them friends--merely acquaintances, though we are on cordial terms. Don't ask me to tell you who my friends are online. After all, they are friends of mine! (Press release: There will be an upcoming message from Howie called: "My friend the dentist.") Subj: MiraBaiM's question Date: 96-05-30 11:43:09 EDT From: Violet1884 MiraBaiM asks: <<>> I HOPE NOT - I intend to keep a hold my my self for the rest of my life ...... and I have to remember that there was a time when I said I intended to keep a hold of Gurumayi’s feet for the rest of my life. However, I hope that this experience has taught me the dangers of giving over my power to others, whoever they are. I hope I can always learn from others whoever they are, but that I will always remain my own person. In other words I do not want any more guru/disciple relationships. Thanks for being here. Violet Subj: Re:courage Date: 96-05-30 11:51:02 EDT From: Cker Dissent, you've really said it all in your last post. There is this exhiliration at knowing that each of us really knows where the rest of us are coming from. It occurred to me that our exchange is much more real "satsang" than anything I experienced in my years in SY. I spent a lot of time talking about, reading about, and thinking about "doing sadhana" while I was in SY, all the while realizing inside that I was only becoming more and more talented at maintaining a well-constructed facade. Behind that curtain was an emptiness born of knowing that I was just going through the motions, acting the part very well but not really not changing or growing - not doing "sadhana" at all. Darshan was particularly empty, because I felt so guilty over not really being a "disciple," over having lost my "faith" (read: "naivete"). I picked up a copy of Gnosis last night. The "tests" of a path (from the "Choosing a Teacher" box, quoting transpersonal psychologist Francis Vaughan in "Spiritual Choices") bear repeating here: 1) Do members keep secrets about the organization? (Absolutely: rewriting history, destroying or editing photographs and other evidence, maintaining silence about the past) 2) How do they respond to embarrassing questions? (With great discomfort & canned tutorisms. If you're lurking and don't think this is true, you haven't yet been brought in to the experience of prepared talks and sharings.) 3) Is the expression of true feelings stifled? (Certainly - keep your unpleasant kriyas to yourself, and feel guilty about forgetting to be grateful for your pain.) 4) Do they profess to have found "the only true way"? (Very tricky here: SY does not say it is the *only* way, and liberally borrows from other traditions as a way to "include." But prosyletizing is a big thing, and emphasis on the great fortune of finding a "true guru" implies that other paths cannot be true due to the rarity of finding such a master. Ignore for the moment - and ever after if you can - the adharmic behavior of these masters, and attribute it, when discovered, to "inscrutability." And after paying for the courses and intensives and spending the requisite time with the guru or in approved programs "specially designed by Gurumayi," who has the time or money for any *other* "way"? They don't have to say SY is the *only* way!) 5) Does the image of the group misrepresent its true nature? (*Now* we know...but the image of SY is very well defended by the faithful. See above.) 6) Are members asked to violate their personal ethics to prove their loyalty? (People here have cited instances of being asked to "rough up" new house trailers for export to India to avoid duty and typing added statement above signatures on legal documents as part of their seva, then being given more responsibility on proving that they will acquiesce in these unethical actions. Any other examples, folks?) 7) Are members free to leave? (Of course - if you haven't abandoned your former life and work and surrendered your life's savings; if you have friends and family outside the fold, i.e., an alternative circle of "bad company;" if you have a therapist who will not try to convince you that your doubts are just a kriya. And then, leave only if you keep quiet about why you did.) Other "self-inquiry" Vaughan advises: Evaluate your own motives for accepting a teacher. What attracts me to this person or group? Am I seeking a parental figure to relieve me of responsibility? What am I giving up to participate? My own answers to these questions have been quite revealing and helpful in understanding where I was, where I went, and where I am now in all this. Would that I had had this guidance years ago. But then, I realize that I may not have been able to answer with honesty. SY is so attractive a package! It feels so good in so many ways. I think the best thing I can say about those parts is that they are remnants of the Truth - and the Truth eventually pointed me *out*! Subj: street lights and keys Date: 96-05-30 15:28:36 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Though they've fallen out of favor, Sheik Nasrudin stories were once popular in SY. In my early SY days I heard lots of them. Most of them went in one ear and out the other. One of them, though, stuck in my head. I thought about it over and over. Eventually I realized it was about me. It was about my predicament and how I had dealt with it. In the story, Nasrudin is crawling around on the street under a street light when his friend comes by. His friend asks him what he's doing. Nasrudin tells him he lost the key to his house and he's looking for it. The friend says, "You lost your key here on the street?" Nasrudin says, "No, of course not, I dropped it by my door when I went to open it." The friend says, "If you lost it by your door, why are looking here?" Nasrudin says, "It's dark by my door, I couldn't see anything. I'd never find my key there. So I came here under the street light where it would be easy to see." This story sounds ridiculous, but it's really a true story in comic disguise. It's my story. I came to SY in distress -- with the pain of relationships and the confusion of growing up. The life course I was on didn't make sense to me. I didn't have a place in the world that I valued. In other words, I was struggling to find a meaningful social identity. When I stumbled into syda I found myself under the street light of inner awareness. A certified official Indian guru said, "This is where you should look for your key." Two dozen swamis stood up and said, "Yes, look here." The "key" I had lost was not the key to the inner awareness and light. But I was desperate and they all seemed so happy. I dove in.... It would be reasonable to look for this key of "meaningful social identity" in the shattered remains of family, community, and society. It would be reasonable to seek help from someone in our culture who has decency and integrity -- someone who lived through the temptation and turmoil and remained a real human being. People like that are becoming an endangered species but there are real people out there. We just don't notice them amidst all the superstars and glamorous millionaires. Like so many people who had lost their keys, I sought help from a guru. The guru does offer us bright light, but it is not shining on the place where we lost that key. There is no doubt that Syda offers us something good. There is a clarity of awareness that comes, a sense of lightness. There is a release from the oppressive feeling that we are defined entirely by our burdens and concerns, and this leads to some inner healing. This is good but SY is a package deal -- the insidious aspects come along with the healing. I slipped blithely into mind control and started believing all the BS. Sometimes I forgot about my lost key and other times I thought I would find it under the syda street light. There is a crisis of meaning in contemporary culture. So many people are lost. So many people are insecure about their place in the world and their role in relationships with others. So many people doubt their value in a world that's gone insane. The contemporary world has given us a heavy burden -- the burden of identity in a culture which has ceased to value the ordinary decency of people. Instead our culture values stardom, glamour, and wealth. The problem in our culture is in the area of our interrelatedness, and the solution to this problem will not be found under the street light of inner awareness. We might find some healing there, and we might become intoxicated by the beauty of that light. But it's not where we'll find our lost keys. --Sheik Fibonacci Subj: The messages I received Date: 96-05-30 16:51:57 EDT From: Charlie 47 I sincerely thank those of you that sent me messages today. I especially would like to thank Fibonacci8 for taking the time to write such a beautiful letter. I'm going to take a few days to contemplate what you have offered me before I respond. I recognize the courage, conviction and sincerity of your hearts. With love, CharlieSubj: Re:Another Guru Date: 96-05-30 17:10:44 EDT From: JJanetH2 I don't want to be a disciple of anyone. Spiritual paths are man-made. If you don't want to be on one, you aren't missing out on God but just on something some man thought up. Subj: To Cker with thanks Date: 96-05-30 18:39:28 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear Cker, Thanks Cker! I just made a pot of Siddha coffee and my wife and I are sipping it as I type. It is most tasty. Cker, you are the greatest. And the day outside my window is about as beautiful a one as I have ever seen. As the song goes, "I'm sitting on top of the world"! Subj: To a friend. To all of you. Date: 96-05-30 18:42:36 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, I wrote a letter to a friend who is in the process of leaving SYDA. I post part of it below in the hope that it will mean something to some of you. ******* What is our reason for living?--the greatest souls and minds and hearts have devoted their lives to helping us with this one, and yet in the end there's no final answer for any of us. When we get in touch with our own human frailty, that eternal NOT KNOWING, it is incredibly painful. But it allows us to be incredibly close to one another, and to see God in each other. We are in this life together, facing the same struggles, the same uncertainties. You feel that pain, I feel that pain. I'm glad we do, for it means we are sensitive human beings. In our not knowing, we are as if one--you, me, and everyone. I find that to be beautiful, mysterious, and an inspiration to love. The sensitivity that makes it hard for us to turn away from the existential reality of human existence, makes us thrill in moments of beauty, love, wisdom. So fragile these things, so human! We hold moments in life close to our hearts, knowing that they are the riches we seek, and knowing that they are fleeting. The joy of memory! The pain of memory! When we know that we DO NOT KNOW the reason for life, we get into direct contact with the raw stuff of life--we really begin to appreciate life. Life puts us through the "agony and the ecstasy." The pain we feel upon leaving SYDA is one form of the raw current of life! Feeling that pain is a coming alive again. The pain will not last forever. The Spring of reawakening brings with it new growth that will fill in the barrenness. Faith is our garden that we must nourish. Our faith is not a statue made of stone, that will survive forever. That was the way SYDA faith was supposed to work--it was like this shiny steel surface that never changed or moved, but just was supposed to "stay put," NO MATTER WHAT. What an inhuman way to think of belief! Our faith now is like tender plants that we take care of with love and commitment--ever in danger of dying, ever in need of care. We feed our faith and pray that it will grow. Slowly, it will grow. There is time. We deserve the luxury of taking time to grow our faith anew, and to fall in love for the first time, yet again. We will always find love, for we are loving types. We will always find faith, for we are faithful and idealistic. We have been through SYDA. There was much in our SYDA past that is beautiful. Those memories are sweet, sometimes bittersweet, sometimes painful. We were in it for a long time. It will take time to move away from it. That's okay. That's natural and normal. We can take our time. No one can pressure us, we're in charge of our lives now. In that big world outside of SYDA are so many who will appreciate us, love us, and welcome us. Slowly, comfortably, we have to keep our eye out for situations and people that suit us. We will find them. I know it is hard to become interested in things other than SYDA sometimes. That's okay--after all, we are used to SYDA things, and are afraid of the new and unknown just like everyone else. There's nothing wrong with us; that fear is what everyone goes through. So we can take our time. We can try out new things slowly, one at a time, as we please. Let's give ourselves a present! Let's give ourselves lots of little presents. I go to a nearby coffeeshop and get a soda, and sit outside in front of it on these benches among the flowers. I then daydream with the sky, the trees, the sun, the flowers, the people--I just groove on existing. Everything can wait, till I'm done with this. At some point, something will occur to me, and I'll get up at the right time and go back to work, or to whatever task has to be done. ********* I think all of us on these boards deserve a lot of little and big presents! Subj: Holding onto cultic thinking Date: 96-05-31 08:43:38 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, An interesting excerpt: BEGIN QUOTED MATERIAL<<>> <<>> <<>> (emphasis mine) <<>>END QUOTED MATERIAL Subj: Living without SYDA panaceas Date: 96-05-31 09:19:27 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Facing that SYDA's lies are lies opens us up to reevaluating other areas of cultish, totalizing thinking that we may otherwise be inclined to hang onto. One of these areas is the belief in PANACEAS--that is, "cure-all" strategies, snake-oil products and practices that cannot be done without. There is an abundance of information showing that "spiritual practices" are not panaceas. This information has been suppressed, but it's out there. The belief that there are panacea "practices" for living is a sign of residual cult brainwashing. It is diametrically opposed to healthy spiritual growth, in my opinion. Here's a sample account (which fits SYDA well) of someone who did mantra and meditation with disastrous results. I ask that you think twice before you dismiss this account as irrelevant to your condition. It may not fit you 100%, but can you really say it fits you only 0%?: BEGIN QUOTED MATERIAL<<>> <<>> <<>> <<>> <<>> <<>>END QUOTED MATERIAL Subj: Re: Larryom Date: 96-05-31 10:03:14 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 Larry, you said: <> Geez, sounds like you got Shaktipat! All kidding aside, I have been feeling much the same way. AOL Ethics/SY Board Maharaj Ki Jaya! Subj: Contemplate Your Experiences Date: 96-05-31 10:18:35 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 There's gonna be a course at the Manhattan Ashram on June 10th called "Contemplate Your Experiences" and its free! "In this course we look at our lives and discover how in every moment we can use our experiences to propel us forward in our sadhana." Isn't that what we're doing here? Subj: THIRD PERSONS Date: 96-05-31 11:08:36 EDT From: PERDUCO Hi all, I thought of an analogy I saw when contemplating public speakers and the way they refer to themselves. QUESTION #1: What does Gurumayi's rhetoric and Bob Dole's campaign for President have in common???? ANSWER: When most adamant about being followed, they refer to themselves in the third person. For example, Bob Dole says, "if you vote for Bob Dole, you vote for America.....", blah, blah, blah. Gurumayi says often, that we should devote everything to "the Guru", blah, blah, blah.... RUMINATION: It would seem these two candidates for our affections seem ultimately either embarassed at their exhortations and claims or are fully aware of how silly it sounds to, in Dole's case, simply say, "vote for me, i'm better than the other guy, OR, in Gurumayi's case, say "give your ultimate devotion to me, for i'm the highest...." Curious---Perhaps both are aware that their audience will detect a kind of madness in their exhortations for our love. MACHIAVELLAN MADNESS: Or, perhaps this tactic, to phrase one's most demanding requests for devotion or what have you, is most effective when implied to the other, formulated in or through an abstract personae. The audience is all too willing to overlook what is really being asked for. In Dole's case--people conduct internal translation of his requests, "ah, Dole represents or is merely a symbol for America's best interests,....etc." In Gurumayi's case the translation goes, "ah, Gurumayi is a mere embodiment of that universal principle I am striving for." Nevertheless, in practice, constituencies are willing to devote tremendous voluntary effort or pull the voting lever for Dole, and devotees to Gurumayi are willing to overlook the moral egregiousness that has resulted in these boards. Just some thoughts, Caritas, Perduco Subj: Go inside before you talk! Date: 96-05-31 11:22:05 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Perduco, you really nailed it with your last post about people who refer to themselves in the third person. I've observed and thought about that phenomena over the years. You've quite covered it. Thanks for speaking on a linguistic marker that I believe is MOST TELLING. Instead of repeating what Perduco has said so well, I now turn to another SYDA linguistic marker that hasn't been mentioned yet. I'm going to enjoy this, for where else except amongst you folks can I talk about a pet peeve of SYDA behavior? Humor me, and answer me this: --Do you remember how people would GO INSIDE when they would talk or respond to questions? SYDA emcees, swamis, disciples, center leaders, will 1. utter a sentence 2. THEN PAUSE WITH EYES SHUT 3. then reopen glassier looking eyes 4. then swallow and inhale 5. than utter another phrase with a softened tone 6. THEN PAUSE WITH EYES SHUT 7. then reopen glassy looking eyes 8. then swallow and inhale then (GO BACK TO STEP 1 AND REPEAT) I wouldn't mind the rigamarole if it resulted in higher quality verbal utterances. But the verbal product was invariably and ludicrously just the same old same old! Actually, usually worse--less coherent, more clipped and bizarre. For crying out loud! When subjected to "talking" of this kind, I inevitably feel like a scientist receiving signals FROM MARS, where there is an unavoidable delay between the receipt of each sequence of beeps. This procedure was just another New Age borrowing that people adopted without thinking. That's the point: WITHOUT THINKING. Does anyone know which New Age yuppie disciple taught this technique to Gurumayi? Can anyone provide a social history of how these New Agisms were added to the SYDA liturgy? (Aside: In SYDA, the Vijnanabhairava was used as a license that empowered the SYDA thought police to pawn off any kind of preposterous claptrap as a DHARANA!) Besides being artificial, anti-spontaneous, and anti-enthusiasm--and sheer nuts--this "going inside before talking" business amounts to not trusting one's self. They idea is to turn away from normal processes of speech. Why turn away? Because the way we normally think and talk and interact is presumably INFERIOR. We are to instead put all our hopes in a SUPERIOR "black box" automatic inner mechanism, a kind of OUIJA BOARD, which presumably will feed us the right signals. The disciple--in this system--is a PASSIVE squawk box for whatever burbles up. This SYDA belief in an inner "black box" mechanism is congruent with the passive position which holds that the sadguru does all, and the disciple is an obsequious "clay pot being molded." I write this because--get ready to laugh--I saw an ex-SYDA disciple the other day, who has RETAINED THIS MOST OFFPUTTING HABIT! LOL! I cannot to this day believe that people with perfectly normal thinking and talking capabilities choose to tamper with their brains in this way, with this rigamarole procedure! Being retaught how to talk and think at a basic level? No thanks. Subj: Advice Date: 96-06-01 15:56:05 EDT From: BVena I was just wondering how others might feel about this. Yesterday I went to a chiropractor for the first time. I was sort of expecting a medical profession type attitude. Instead I was greeted by a slurpy eyed South Fallsburg colonic irrigationist sort of character. I was told about blocked energy and life force and what else I'm not sure. I started to nod off as I always did when spoken to by one of the self important SY swamis on such topics. I have embarked on this path because of peripheral neuropathy caused by a course of chemo some months back. I can easily afford the sessions, so money isn't an issue. (No I don't want to buy a bridge, thank you) Also I would prefer to manage the pain with out drugs if possible...........Still, the little purple baskets under each table give me pause. What are they for? Are they to catch bad vibes, impressions, karma? If so, I think he's barking up the wrong samskara. I simply don't believe in any of that stuff any more. I'm not saying that he can't help me. I just doubt anyone understands why it might work. Little purple baskets not with standing. I'm posting in here and not the other SY folders because I'd here "Gurumayi goes to a chiropractor so it's good enough for you!" Also my health issues would be held up as an example of what happens when you leave the guru. TOS on that! Beau Subj: Nityananda Jr. update Date: 96-06-01 19:20:22 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Muktananda's rise after the death of Nityananda was regarded as unauthorized by many Nityananda disciples. Well, history is repeating itself (albeit on a lesser scale). Nityananda Jr.'s offerings will appear attractive to those who are interested in the continued observance of SYDA's practices and general outlook, but are disillusioned with the sharp focus on the human guru seen in SYDA itself. (I do not present as an endorsement or advertisement of Nityananda, but simply as information that may interest some AOL readers.) ************ NITYANANDA JR'S OFFERINGS AND TOUR PLAN OFFERINGS Retreat for young adults ($15/day) Being aware ($175) Meditation Intensives ($100) Adults' Retreat ($650) Learn to Meditate Classes ($50) TOUR Germany, Pine Bush, Curacao, Oklahoma City, Houston, Austin, Berkeley, Melbourne, Sydney, Perth, Bombay. SHANTI MANDIR (description) Mahamandaleshwar Swami Nityananda founded Shanti Mandir (Temple of Peace) to embody his guru's teaching: that one can experience one's inner divinity and serenity all the time, even in ordinary daily activities. In 1982, Nityananda succeeded his Guru, the renowned master Baba Muktananda, and in 1995 was named a Mahamandaleshwar, the highest rank of spiritual guides and educators of India. He is the youngest monk ever to be named a Mahamandaleshwar. Following the traditions of Vedanta and Kashmir Shaivism, Nityananda teaches patience and acceptance, the recognition of the divinity of all beings, and the practice of ancient Sanskrit chants and meditation. He says "When we chant and meditate, we elevate ourselves to the experience of Truth, rather than try to bring Truth down to our level." Shanti Mandir brings the spiritual into practical daily life and fosters the recognition of life's innate perfection and divinity. DAILY ASHRAM CHANTS --Arati/Nitya Stotra --Jyota se Jyota --Arati/Shiva Mahimnah The morning chant lasts about 60 minutes and rotates each day to include the Guru Gita, the Rudram, Devi Stotra, Vishnu Sahasranam and Lalitasahasranam. Arati is chanted in the evening followed by the Shiva Mahimnah Stotra with dinner served at 8:00 pm. Daily chanting continues all year, although the routine sometimes varies by special programs. SHANTI MANDIR GIFT SHOP The Shanti Mandir Gift Shop has a selection of incense, chanting tapes, silver & brass statues, puja items, jewelry and a wide variety of gift items. Please contact **** to request our catalog/price list. Subj: Re:Responses with thanks pt Date: 96-06-01 23:41:12 EDT From: D Morgaina Yes, I too have been going around the house gathering all my SYDA things? What an investment. I spoke with an old devotee who has watched people leave and he said most everyone takes their things in a box and drops them off at the local center where they are passed around and picked through. I know one of the first things I did was to put pictures of my family in the frames, but I haven't gotten rid of the other "stuff" yet. What have you done with your things? Subj: Re:Responses with thanks pt Date: 96-06-02 06:12:59 EDT From: Dissent222 Here's what we did. We had that suitcase full of everything for a few weeks. Finally I COULDN'T STAND IT anymore. On our corner is a dumpster for a restaurant. We're not supposed to, but my wife and I decided to haul the suitcase there one night and dump it. It was heavy - tons of stuffies and pictures and letters and books and magazines and all the expensive paraphernalia and accoutrements of 13 years of blind obedience to the endless hypnotic overt and/or subliminal advertisements in SYDA, which say "BUY THIS SHAWL MADE OF HAIR THAT MOUNTAIN GOATS SCRAPE OFF THEIR CHINS ONTO TREES - IT'S $3,000, BUT IT'S FOR THE GOOD OF MANKIND AND YOU CAN'T REALLY CALL YOURSELF A DEVOTEE OR EXPECT ENLIGHTENMENT WITHOUT ONE. Besides, all the MAIN BUILDING people have them, and we all know that as obnoxious and pretentious as they are, they're the ones that get Gurumayi's attention the most". Anyway, we hauled the suitcase up, hoping not to be seen, when, lo and behold, out of the smog appeared a grimy figure with a shopping cart. "Give me, give me," he said. So the corner crack addict who sells used books and what nots got all our stuff, and we've never seen it again. Our home is OURS now, and we love it that way. Subj: Re:Its been a hard week Date: 96-06-02 09:56:06 EDT From: Howie Sm *****PLEASE SKIP OVER THIS POST IF YOU KNOW HOW TO SOLVE ETHICS 101 PROBLEMS**** Dear Coonhollow, You say <<> If a person takes a Tylenol that was poisoned by some psycho, would you say there was "nothing wrong in the first place"? <<>> Would you say that the poisoned person's "desire" for a Tylenol that was not poisoned led to their "despair" (that is, demise)? <<>> Would you say that those who think there is something is wrong with poisoned Tylenol, and try to warn people about poisoned Tylenol, are barking up the "wrong paradigm" because they see "something wrong"? <<>> Still as woolly-mouthed as ever. Not to mention passive-aggressive in ways already thoroughly discussed earlier. You can't (mis)interpret platitudes in a self-serving way to validate your sociopathy around here. This isn't a zombie board, as it once was. Don't you know what ethics is? I'm most happy to "discuss" with you the uses of psychotic solipsism as a way of evading ethics, and of entering into the realm of the metaphysically self-righteous. You opened up the subject, not me. Your "It's been a hard week" critique depended on misinterpreting the following platitudes: "the world is as you see it." "desire is the root of pain." I should charge you for translating your gibberish into something reasonably intelligible. If you are interested in joining in with other Ram Butlers in singing the praises of psychotic solipsism while teaching the metaphysics of being an accomplice to unethical acts, I suggest you go to the SYDA supporters folder. Of course you are welcome to stay here and chat with me. It is not "black and white thinking" to say poisoned Tylenol should be taken off the shelves, and that SYDA is a destructive cult. I should hope that some people are sufficiently deprogrammed to grasp this. Subj: Thoughts from longtime lurkers Date: 96-06-02 11:44:06 EDT From: MrMrs God We've been lurking around here for a long, long time. We find that there are questions that haven't quite been addressed. (It is awkward using "we" all the time, so we will use "I", meaning whichever one of us is writing, unless something actually pertains to both of us.) It seems that once you get far enough away from the inner circles where the spiritual/psychological damage takes place, there is the "devotee level," where things get much healthier. Ex- and active ashramites have told me as much. These people walk around--as we all do--in a world of their own beliefs, and they stay in SY not so much because of the facts, but because of what they *believe* to be the facts. Most devotees stay at this mostly social level, and never get so near to the inner circles that they get hurt. So SY goes on. We have experienced some of the damage that you all talk about, but not as badly as some of you. Some of you, in your pain and rage, want to bring the whole SYDA structure tumbling down (totally understandable), and some of you seem to have made a religion of posting messages. How long will that go on? Does it not, as some point, actually hinder your healing? Does it not become scab-picking at some point? Would you destroy things for those thousands of innocent devotees who are happy in their cocoons? This is a real ethical question. SY reminds me of the Million Man March: Begun by a snake of a man, but the men who came were good, and they made something good out of it. Or the Mafia, which makes a fortune, partly through legitimate business. It seems that SYDA makes a fortune by trafficking in real truth and real wisdom. How is it different from any other major organized religion or spiritual path in that regard? Just some thoughts... Peace to all. Subj: Larry, I protest Date: 96-06-02 11:52:47 EDT From: Dissent222 Howie, thanks for your response to CoonHollow. I read his/her post and couldn't make any sense of it whatsoever. I guess I've forgotten how to speak in that language - the language of those whose minds are controlled by their vampire-gurus. I thank you, Howie, for taking the time to respond as you did, because I get so turned off to that kind of mindless babble that I just tune out. But when I remember how destructive to my life it was to listen to that stuff, I realize it IS worth responding to as you have done - forthrightly, without deception, without succumbing to the lulling, hypnotic siren song of yogababble. All it is is propaganda, that kind of talk. Syda has used it fairly successfully to control people who, in any other context, would respond with horror and outrage to sexual abuse of young women, or verbal abuse and economic exploitation or workers. There's another issue that came up on the board recently. In response to Perduco's description of the "go within" affectations of some speakers, Larry wrote: "Your "black box" metaphor is a projection of how you would interpret the behavior in a SYDA or anti-SYDA context. Some people just talk like that. Why not let it go?" Larry, your point here doesn't sit well with me. Why do you need to refute what Perduco is saying here? Why do you need to invalidate his/her feelings and thoughts about this particular mannerism as he describes it? After all, we ARE discussing its use in a SYDA context here, so what is your difficulty in processing that information? If you have no problem with people who speak this way who are not influenced by syda, then fine. But this is a syda discussion, so Perduco has brought a particular syda mannerism to our attention and described it, analyzed it. He is not projecting anything. He is observing, analyzing and expressing his perceptions. You, on the other hand, are TEACHING and JUDGING Perduco, as you have attempted to judge and to teach myself and others on this board. I don't like that. "Just let it go", which you want to teach Perduco to do, is a phrase that I find insidiously destructive as it gets used in syda and other mind-control cults. It stands for "don't feel, don't pay attention to your intuition or your feelings, don't listen to your mind -- just surrender and obey." There is good reason to reflect upon, discuss, criticize, analyze and speak out about offensive aspects of syda. Most of us are in the throes of reclaiming our own voices and breaking free of syda's control and annihilation of our authentic selves. So exposing falseness in syda and talking about it is really important to us. In spite of your recent gush of emotion about what is being said here, your comment to Perduco seems designed to squelch and invalidate that conversation. It strikes me as highly arrogant for you to presume to have the moral authority and superiority to tell someone else that their perception is a "projection" and that they should follow your instructions to "let it go." I am reluctant to further squelch the syda conversation going on here by making it about skirmishing with you - but I have tried to be clear and specific about my objections, and straight forward, in the hopes that my point, which I think is important, can be heard. To summarize, my point is that GM, Ram Butler, and the SYDA Programming World shut us up, judged us and taught us for a long time, in order to control, exploit, manipulate and abuse us. I, and I think others here, are not willing to allow someone else, such as yourself, to behave in a similar manner, without putting up a protest. My protest is hereby registered. Subj: A hello, to MrMrsGod (1 of 3) Date: 96-06-02 13:09:22 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 3 Dear MrMrsGod (I love your screen name!), <<>> Yes, I am critical of both Nityananda Jr. and Gurumayi. I think they are both frauds, and an embarrassment to Hinduism. I don't know whether haste or lack of reading comprehension accounts for your gross misreading of my "point," but perhaps I should just restate my position: --History repeats itself with these Elmer Gantry tent shows--which duplicate, mutate, and otherwise proliferate amongst the gullible. Nityananda is a case in point. --Nityananda's mutation away from a guru-centric focus (and his lower prices!) will prove attractive to those disillusioned by Gurumayi's antics, and her need to be ostentatiously worshipped as a God. <<>> Good point, which I would restate in more general terms: who would want to get mixed up in any of the madness, either with the sister or the brother. (Note to onlookers: Gurumayi and her biological brother, Nityananda, are engaged in a loveless power struggle with one another over the spiritual/economic empire bequeated to both of them by Swami Muktananda before his death. See AOL's Hinduism library for bibliography on this.) SEE PART 2 Subj: A hello, to MrMrsGod (2 of 3) Date: 96-06-02 13:12:45 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 3 Dear MrMrsGod, As to your post titled "Thoughts from longtime lurkers": thanks for being so forthright and direct. My point of view is somewhat different from yours. But I do appreciate being addressed in a direct way. May I respond to it, pretending as if it were directed at me just for rhetorical convenience? <<>> I have no desire to convert people to my way of thinking; I don't see my quest as "religious," since I tend not to see things in grandiose or evangelical terms. I see posting messages online as fun and interesting. I find very interesting things to read by others here. Some of what I've read here has been profoundly moving, and for reasons not having to do with SYDA per se at all. I agree that becoming an ex-SYDA person can become cultish. That is something to be cautious about. But it doesn't seem to be a problem here. On the folders recently, I've been amazed not only at the clear and distinct identities people have here, but at the fact that it hasn't turned into a Howie "witch hunt" as it invariably does when SYDA-supporters and I "mix." The fact that I am accepted amongst other exs, my eccentricities and all, indicates to me the extent to which people here are open-minded, and can see through superficial differences--and can discern underlying qualities of sincerity and warmth. For these and a lot of other reasons I don't think people here are making a cult out of being exs. <<>> Good point--AOL probably does become unhealthy at some point for some. But I'm fine with my interests, hobbies, and actions. I'm used to SYDA-zombies assigning to me all manner of mental and spiritual disease based on what I post, but I know where I'm at, I know how well I "function," and feel okay about life. (Those who know me IRL, and know my level of functioning "in the world" are probably smiling at the notion that I am "injured" or somehow "dysfunctional.") What SYDA people find hard to understand is, life for everyone isn't necessarily about discovering a shortest-line path to "God and moksha." That's why their "brackets" don't fit what people at large do. Someone, like me for instance, might want to post on AOL just for the hey of it--for some nonspecific reason. Actions are not necessarily driven by the goal of "finding God," or alternatively "pursuing recovery." I'm as critical of psychological-therapeutic pigeonholing of behavior as I am of "spiritual" pigeonholing of behavior. The people I read here--BVena, Dissent222, Cker, and others--don't strike me as "scab-pickers" at all. They say very interesting, amusing, and moving things. Are you saying they are scab-pickers? Who is a scab-picker? I can't think of any scab-pickers among the people (whose posts I choose to read). SEE PART 3 Subj: A hello, to MrMrsGod (3 of 3) Date: 96-06-02 13:15:21 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 3 OF 3 Dear MrMrs God, You say <<>> I'm not sure where you are going with this. Do you mean to say that we shouldn't say what we want when we want to--of course observing the laws governing free speech? I agree that we shouldn't forcibly disrupt SYDA-operated locations. But this is an AOL chat area, and not a SYDA site. I don't think that people are just fools that will read what I, or anyone says, and become destroyed. I would imagine that people who read these messages will weigh what they hear and make judgments for themselves. Information and viewpoints on both sides should be aired. What's nice about AOL is, we can interact--people with diverging views--which is what is not possible at SYDA sites. The notion that SYDA will tumble down, not for reasons internal to it but because some people somewhere are talking, seems preposterous. First, let me say I don't think SYDA will tumble down. But assuming it were to, it would be a crash of its own making. It wouldn't be because, for example, I wrote twenty-five posts in the month of March. <<>> So much has been said online regarding SYDA and "outer circle" people. So much has been said online about rationalization and denial. My view is, briefly, people who hide behind an "outer circle" status to justify their continued association with SYDA are brainwashed, and sometimes accomplices. Is God so impotent that we need the SYDA circus tent to keep God in business? I don't want to rehearse what has already been said in the folders here, but do want to say that if you have been lurking for a while, you must not have been reading carefully or with much comprehension. I say this because your comment is stated as if it is introducing some new idea to the discussion. Far from it. Some of the most illuminating critical posts about SYDA have been from "outer circle" people. Anyway, I want to thank you again for just coming out with your views without resorting to some weird metaphysical dialect, or to love bombing, or to maudlin emotional manipulation, or to passive-aggressive wind-passing. I really appreciate your directness. Subj: Syda mannerisms Date: 96-06-02 13:51:30 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Regarding this business of going within before you speak: I think the point is that while this is a natural behavior for a few people here and there, it has become a Syda mannerism. It's a lot like the famous arm gesture that was discussed on this board a few months back. Nothing wrong with any particular arm gesture, but that one became a specific Syda mannerism. On the one hand, both these mannerisms are just mannerisms. On the other hand, in Syda they have become group affectations. As an individual unconsciously takes on the affectations of a group, he/she also unconsciously proceeds to take on the ideology of the group. Soon the person's beliefs, perspectives, and way of experiencing the world have been replaced by the group's beliefs, perspectives, and way of experiencing the world. That is, the person's individuality slowly gets replaced by group identity. There's really nothing wrong with such mannerisms per se, but they are behavioral markers of a much more insidious process that goes on in cults and some other groups. That is what's objectionable. A causual lurker in this folder might wonder what's wrong with these people, that they get hung up on arm gestures and the like. Really, though, it isn't the gestures themselves that get people's hackles up around here. It's the invisible psychological processes that they know are accompanying those gestures. When a lot of people take on the affectations of a totalistic group, it's a bad sign. Subj: To Howie Date: 96-06-02 15:14:48 EDT From: MrMrs God Howie: "Passive-aggressive wind-passing," I love it! We weren't looking for such a lengthy and thoughtful response, thanks! We're not into getting into "the fray" just yet, so we'll pass on getting into some of your objections to our initial postings. That's OK. My other and/or I will make postings from time to time as we feel the need. In the meantime, of course we all have the right to live our lives as we see fit, even if we bring ourselves harm in our efforts to heal. Sometimes telling the difference ain't easy! Our wishes are for speedy healing and moving on. Peace to all. Subj: The Terminator Date: 96-06-02 15:29:26 EDT From: PERDUCO Thank you Fibbonacci for raising a point I certainly overlooked. Thank you Dissent for catching on to an assumption I'd like to address. Dear Larryom, Your assumption that I am merely projecting and need to "leg go" of such projections would require personal knowledge on you part that I know you do not have. You in fact seem to do the projecting you assume I'm doing. Yes, it is true that in my description of these observed behaviours, if they were the common place behaviours similar to talking with one's hands---then your assumption of my merely projecting would be more accurate. Perhaps you are then pointing out a deficiency in my description. It's like this. If you and I sat down at a table every now and then and had a conversation, then both you and I would get to know what the other is like. I would know that, for example Larryom prefers to talk with certain gestures, and that such gestures were sincere expressions of Larryom's personality. The same is true to the contrary. If in the course of our meetings the "Terminator" movie was released and you came into our next meeting talking like Arnold Scwarzaneg(however you spell it), then I would think your behaviour uncannily similar. In fact, I don't believe I would be rushing into projection to assume you were either joking with me or presenting an insincere front. Such judgements are warranted and to ask that people put them aside cannot be achieved as they are natural to human thinking processes. I'm sure you know this Larryom. Likewise, if I know X person before X person becomes X devotee and a remarkable mimicing of a central personality that X is devoted to occurs---I would be inclined to doubt X's sincerity for all the reasons Howie and Dissent pointed out above. I was not talking about the usual gestures you rightfully point out are to be let go of, not thought twice about. I'm talking about ultimately unusual gestures foreign to those making them. Fibbonacci actually makes the point quite well. These behaviours are indicia of adoption of ideology and I think they may even be considered modus operandi, a group signature of a sort. A symbol indeed, but one wreaking of disingenuity. Cordially, Perduco. Subj: A note to God Date: 96-06-02 15:52:20 EDT From: PERDUCO Dear MrMrsGod, You do cover youself earlier by recognizing that "some" on these boards have been badly damaged and then you say, <> For the record, I've joined on these boards as Howie has, because it is fun and interesting and I've read and had some amazing insights into the labrynth called SY. I've not been damaged. My disagreement with SY is with their metaphysical system--or that they have erected a system at all. But it is not just intellectual. In fact, these boards are part of an exploration on my part to discover a link between what I know is a faulty metaphysical system and the actual abuses/damage some on these boards have suffered from. This is not scab-picking but diagnostic. You also say, <> I agree. There is some Latin expression--I forget the Latin, but the English translation is "even a fool speaks the truth sometimes." That the beneficial may arise from the less beneficial is axiomatic to the numerous world philosophies that have a long home with humanity. And, on that note, you say, <> It is debatable how much "real truth and reall wisdom" is trafficked into SY. I suspect it is selective truth--which is not truth at all. The distinction between SY and other religions is not as bleak as you make it sound. From a cynical point of view there is none and SY like many religious adherents are merely opiated. Nevertheless, I'll point out a major difference::::: Money:::the way SY uses money and deals with money is different. Besides money, SY differs in both it's metaphysical apologetics for it's very different behaviours. I could go on about the differences---i'll sum it up as this: SY, in my perception suffers from flawed reasoning in it's metaphysical system and practices. I don't mean "reasoning" in some Kantian intellectual gymnastics sense, but rather in it's root meaning "ratio"--to measure, to discriminate, to measure A against B. There is a flaw here, a wrench within the machinery. Caritas, Perduco Subj: Re:A note to God Date: 96-06-02 17:33:29 EDT From: MrMrs God Just a quick note to Perduco: The "real truths" referred to are the teachings of Hinduism quite apart from SY. When the teachings begin to get passed through the filter of Gurumayi- worship, then it begins to get twisted. One of the things which I find especially pernicious is the fact that the whole system, as someone said, sets up a permanent longing for Realization. How can anyone be happy in the moment (to say nothing of their whole life long) if they are constantly comparing their current state to Realization--if it exists--and sufferering from the discrepancy between now and then? Guru to the rescue! The more intensives taken, the closer to Realization, in $400 pops! What sticks in my throat is that Baba and G have spoken real wisdom. At least M started out as "for real" and went on a long downward slide, but G seems to have started at the moral bottom and has been polishing it ever since. Nevertheless, is it ethical to go around telling people with real needs not to go into SY? As I said before, it is what people believe that they act on, and it's beliefs that make one happy, not facts. And then there are the sticky situations in which there are SY families divided in their beliefs... I have no wise answers, I only speak my piece. So much for quick notes... Subj: Re: Belief = happiness Date: 96-06-02 19:35:11 EDT From: Cker MrMrsGod, you say, >>is it ethical to go around telling people with real needs not to go into SY? As I said before, it is what people believe that they act on, and it's beliefs that make one happy, not facts.<< Hooboy. I would not send *anyone* to SY (whether in a state of "real" or "unreal" neediness, but certainly not in the former!). The only way I could do that would be to hide the facts as I know them, from my own experience and from the reports of people I trust. That would not be a friendly gesture on my part, to say the least. I don't know any rational person not already in SY who would, or could, accept SY "knowing" the facts but "believing" something else. (How could they "believe" when they "know"?) As for those in SY, they "believe" the PR even though they have enough information to "know" the truth. I was one of those. For a long time, one might no longer believed the PR but not have the strength to admit and deal with being duped. Even at that stage, I could not in good conscience recommend SY to anyone I knew. Denial evolved to honest doubt, and then gave way to painful realization (the small "R" kind, but perhaps more useful to me at this stage of spiritual development). Staying in SY created a state of cognitive dissonance that became intolerable. Others I know have so much at stake, having remade their entire lives in SY terms (work, friendships, therapists, marriages, children raised in SY - all or any of these), that they can't leave without challenging the foundation of every support structure they might need to access once out. I'll be the first to admit that what I "believed" about SY made me, superficially, "happy," in a "bliss bunny" kinda way that *never* held up outside the SY context. That "happiness" also just happened to exclude anyone who did not "believe," including some people very close to me. Once I verified, to my own satisfaction, that what had been labeled "gossip" was well-known fact (as indicated in a recent article in Gnosis, referenced elsewhere on this board, and many books I've read in the past few years on spiritual paths that contain references to Muktananda and/or SY), it only made me feel betrayed, and foolish for not being able to leave SY sooner. I could not "believe" once I "knew." Perhaps the pertinent verse of the Guru Gita should be amended to read: "Those who "don't know" don't want to know...." Cker Subj: Dear God(s): Why I Post Date: 96-06-02 20:28:09 EDT From: Cker MrMrsGod, you question our reasons for posting, going so far as to characterize it as "scab-picking." I left SY only recently. This is the only place that I can enter into a conversation about leaving SY with people who have that perspective. Those who were never involved in SY have no concept of the effect being in, then leaving, SY has on our lives, and will continue to have. I also exchange moral support with friends and acquaintances similarly isolated, some affected to a much more severe degree than I; some less. By contrast, my acquaintances and friends still in SY have taken several approaches to the place I'm in about all this, only one of them helpful: Some ignore the issue, continuing to share darshan stories (their own or another's) to which they clearly expect an "appropriate" (tutor-approved) reply - or at least a knowing nod or "Aaahh" (in a class with the infamous arm gesture, "going within" before speaking [but only when speaking in a SY context], or - my personal favorite, and one I cultivated to perfection! - breathy, deliberate, perfectly-enunciated speech, sometimes several notes - if not a full octave - below one's normal vocal tone, punctuated by periodic chin mudras, or nod of the head/broad grin while simultaenously inviting the agreement of the audience with "Yes?"). Or, after asking why I left and getting the answer, they offer an explanation (also tutor-approved) of how they dealt with one or another particular piece of "gossip." (Example: "That raised a samskara for me, too...", or, "I used the NYer article as a springboard for contemplation on that issue [sexual and/or physical abuse, abuse of power, hidden Swiss bank accounts - but less frequently the last of these] in my own life.") One person laid a preemptive claim to all my (un)worldly SYDA goods, which effected a fortuitous $800.00 decline in my credit card carry-over balance. (Hey, what goes around comes around: a lot of that balance is from Mahasamadhi last year! And I didn't even take the Lakshmi course!) As you can guess, there is little common ground in my flesh-and-blood circle for discussion of the type found here. In addition, I delight in the profound and personal insight of my fellow contributors. A lot of real contemplation (even sadhana!) goes on here. Here, people are demonstrating and sharing their growth from their experience of SY, even if it's not quite in the direction they had in mind when they began the practices, and support others in that endeavor. Lastly, this site serves notice to the curious or uninformed that, "Yes, what you've heard is true, and not everyone is just swallowing it and going on. There are thoughtful and credible ex-devotees who will support your search for truth. Lurk if you like. That's a safe place to start. Avoid serious consideration about SY at your peril." Subj: Re:Dear God(s): Why I Post Date: 96-06-02 22:44:34 EDT From: JJanetH2 Regarding the idea that what we are doing here is scab-picking, I have to disagree. I like AOL because there are many issues that are too painful for me to look at dead on so I tend to avoid them. But I often see them brought out in the light of day (and said quite beautifully I might add) on this board and it helps lighten my emotional burden. Subj: Guruless Gita Date: 96-06-03 08:59:30 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Cker wrote: << Perhaps the pertinent verse of the Guru Gita should be amended to read: "Those who "don't know" don't want to know...." >> Wonderful!!! A true sutra of the Guruless Gita. Actually the verse your quote refers to was my favorite verse in the GG. Several years before I left SY, I began to realize that I really "didn't know". That is, I didn't know about all the spiritual "knowledge" that made up the world of SY. As I became more comfortable with not knowing about the Guru and the spiritual knowledge of SY, I also became more uncomfortable with those who "did know". I came to realize that they didn't know either; they just didn't know that they didn't know. Eventually I came to see the whole SY belief system as a form of intellectual dishonesty which served a remarkable psychological purpose. The primary purpose, as I saw it, was to dissipate anxiety by providing a soothing, self congratulatory conceptual system. Once anxiety is diverted from conscious view, devotees really do feel better. They relax inside as contentment replaces some of their anxiety. Their interactions also become better (in some ways) as they become less anxious about their social roles, their identity, and their place in the cosmos. This is all valuable from a therapeutic point of view. It's just dishonest, because it is dependent on an ideology. It is a very effective ideology, but it is an ideology. The honest, and LIBERATING thing to do would be to leave that ideology once some benefit from it has been gained. As we all know, however, that doesn't happen within the context of SY. Some of the inner experiences are very valuable. The inner contentment is a worthwhile achievement. That can be taken with us as we leave the ideology of SY. The spiritual perspective can be maintained, even as we re-individuate and discover our own ways of being in the world. Guru worship and literalistic faith in the SY ideology are powerful tools of the SY therapeutic system. But they can be easily discarded, while we continue to value some of the wonders of the human soul that SY therapy helped us find. Anyhow, thanks for your wonderful sutra for the Guruless Gita which we sing in this folder. Subj: Ideology=idology Date: 96-06-03 13:14:50 EDT From: PERDUCO Dear Fibs, You said it so well again! You know, I remember reading a book by Nietzsche, I think it was "Twilight of the Idols", in which he cleverly respells the word "ideology" to "idology." When the word idolatry is mentioned in our culture we have the image of a religious zealot dressed in robes and smashing statues. It is the image of what was once "visual" worship. For example, devotees would adoringly bow down to the stone deity... Today an argument may be made that we know have a "verbal" or "audio" worship of nice sounding phrases and explanations that seduce us into the same ignorance that bowing down to a stone idol would. For example, a devotee may pause, hold his or her breath, an speak in a lower tone to answer a question. These may be called idologies of which SY's "system" is none other than a form of "false worship."---of the limited deity of platitudes, cliche's, and a selective obfuscation of some aspects of some religions on the one hand and wholesale adoption of only parts of doctrines incomplete without their ignored whole. It's an idology with a spoonful of sugar added to a touch of guilt. Caritas, PerducoSubj: Re:Ideology=idology Date: 96-06-03 17:25:55 EDT From: Fibonacci8 I've never read Nietzsche but a long time ago someone told me that Nietzsche said we are always creating gods and then destroying them. This strikes me as true. Like you say, the gods aren't stone statues, but rather ideas, beliefs, ideals, etc. It seems to be part of the process of human growth. Children have various gods, adolescents have their gods, and as adults, we continue finding new ones. It seems to be important to destroy them after they've served their purpose of energizing the different parts of our souls that are affected by each of these gods. If we don't move on and grow ("destroy" the god in question), we get stuck. Syda had its purpose, I'm sure. It was a very powerful romance with some of these gods, such as the god of motherly protection in adult life, the god which promises freedom from the pain of life, the god which offers freedom from the anxiety of independent thinking, etc. Syda has a large pantheon of these gods. These are the real gods of SY, as opposed to the Hindu dieties which devotees worship as spiritual affectations. Subj: Re:Guruless Gita Date: 96-06-03 23:36:14 EDT From: Cker Fibonacci uvaca, >>Syda had its purpose, I'm sure. It was a very powerful romance with some of these gods, such as the god of motherly protection in adult life, the god which promises freedom from the pain of life, the god which offers freedom from the anxiety of independent thinking, etc. Syda has a large pantheon of these gods. These are the real gods of SY, as opposed to the Hindu dieties which devotees worship as spiritual affectations.... Some of the inner experiences are very valuable. The inner contentment is a worthwhile achievement. That can be taken with us as we leave the ideology of SY. The spiritual perspective can be maintained, even as we re-individuate and discover our own ways of being in the world. Guru worship and literalistic faith in the SY ideology are powerful tools of the SY therapeutic system. But they can be easily discarded, while we continue to value some of the wonders of the human soul that SY therapy helped us find.<< This is an important new perspective of the changes in my life: a series of creating and destroying successive sets of "deities," integrating and then growing beyond each on the way to wholeness. What's exciting and comforting to me is that this frames so much of what I have thought of as "loss," and identifies those I tend to think of as "lost to me," in a positive light. The way you put it, Fibs, makes sense of a process that has long been the source of anxiety, and not just about leaving SY. We're never told that it's okay to outgrow our idols and ideologies. So, when it happens, it usually causes some initial (and sometimes incredible) discomfort. The process of "growing beyond" is a stretch for everyone, and is framed by those people and institutions we leave behind as "loss": family, church, academia, relationships of all kinds, and now the guru, SY, and the circle of people we knew there. Successive perceptions of "me" and of "should" are torn aside: "That's not entirely me either, and that's not the way it needs to be." The job is to cast aside the affectations while taking with us what we have come to recognize as authentic, to keep moving without getting "stuck." Ken Wilber, in "A Brief History of Everything" (can you tell, my favorite book these days - a very chatty, sensible, and understandable approach to understanding evolution of everything from the individual self to the universe, for those of us who took geography instead of philosophy electives!), talks about this process as one of inclusion and transcendence - totally positive, integrating, including, accepting, and always growing, so that the whole is ever greater than the sum of its parts. Maybe this is what my mother meant by "growing pains." This is so great. It's the most I've contemplated what I'm about in this life, and what life's about, in a long time. Thanks, guys! Cker Subj: Re:How you come off Date: 96-06-04 00:32:57 EDT From: Bob1258487 Larry, I've tried to ignore you for a while but lately you've been begging for feedback. So here it is. Put on your witness consciousness and pull up an ear because we wouldn't want any of that nasty anger to creep in . You said in a post "Dissent, I'm so very sorry for what you went through (not that I feel responsible for it). It's seems very sad to me that your SYDA experience conditioned you in such a way that you feel you can't differentiate between observing your emotions and suppressing them." This is so condescending. If you can't see that it is then somebody should tell you. You are just asking for it by saying things like this. The patronizing tone of many of your posts differentiates you from the other people on this board, and your constant requests for feedback indicate that your real interest in remaining on the board lies not so much with the issues of the board but with some need for attention and appreciation that you don't get from real life. I believe you when you say that your preachy style is not deliberate but involuntary. You obviously feel so comfortable posting answers to everything on the board. Perhaps you should think a little before you do that. I'm sure you don't want to insult people but many times you end up doing so. You stand out because you try to answer everything. None of us is qualified to answer everything, and the others don't try to except for Vanier who is gone now. Your rhetoric smacks of the speech patterns of EST and Siddha Yoga. Have you considered therapy? You may have a lot of issues inside that you simply can't face. It seems you have taken it upon yourself to be the emcee of the discussion. The way you do it is extremely irritating. You say you are not trying to be preachy but look at what you say here to Dissent. LARRY: "you have very clearly delineated the two types of "veggies" in SYDA: 1) Those of who see it as a moral issue 2) Those who avoid meat out of fear of "divine retribution" (or simply because its a SYDA practice) I really do appreciate how you all but admit that you HAD been vegetarian for the wrong reasons. I also appreciate how your post was characterized by the admission of how some of us may be offended by the form your reactions agains SYDA often take. I confess that it has been very hard for me on several occasions to think of you as representing those who had the courage to leave SYDA for their own reasons." Your use of the word "admit," and "admission" in this context makes it sound like you think Dissent is confessing some failing which you, Larry, do not have. Over and over you say Dissent fell through a trap door, or confesses, or admits, or offended you, or somehow has missed the point. It's you that is missing the impact of your words on us! Your condescension is so thoroughgoing and implicit. I don't have the time to really get into showing this to you and I wish you could just see it. But it comes through loud and clear. Ordinarily I don't like to get in people's faces like this but I'm really tired of hearing your manipulative posts. What really bugs me is that lately you are acting like Dissent is persecuting you, but you've been baiting him for so long, what did you expect? Subj: Re:How you come off Date: 96-06-04 02:58:08 EDT From: Shridevi woah! talk about condescending. so this is me again. i'm a pretty judgemental, condescending, elitist person myself. and here is what i think, in the interest of diversity. #1 - this ideology thing is in my top ten interests. i get off on exploring it from lots of angles. what strikes me in my own process is how neatly i could replace siddha yoga comfort with the psychotherapy /humanist comfort. whatever you want to call it - it is the invisible glue of popular culture these days. we are all supposed to be hip to the ridiculousness of gurus, achieve the developmental milestones outlined in the latest theories, get back in touch with our genetic cultural heritage etc etc. one of the things about being raised in siddha yoga is that it is not some trip i picked up after college to soothe my existential anxieties. nor was it some new age trip i learned from gurumayi. i took the *** seriously, told people they were full of it when i thought they were and almost constantly contemplated what i learned, through my own chewing on it, to be the differences between narcissistically driven, ideological co-optation of spiritual concepts and something else which still fascinates me. i need to find a way to give voice to my experience that doesn't feel to me that i am just being co-opted into the next default interpretive frame. this "cult" discourse is one of those things which is useful for me only to a point. is there a suitable, acceptable way to have this conversation online? i feel like i need to hide what is not homogeneous here. i'm talking about a subtle feeling i have. not a proclamation about who said this or that. just kinda stale is all. #2 - back to the veggie issue. a thread i've been wondering about lately. I think that there meaningful things to say about the relationship between * the ethical choices people make about supporting siddha yoga and *the ethical choices people make about supporting the meat industry. in both cases, people chose to desensitize themselves from the suffering of other beings in order to maintain lifestyles that "feel good." in the case of sy, there is this throwback to tantra to make it seem natural. in the case of carnivorousness, there is invocation of tribal mesopotamia or some romantic european or native lifestyle which has nothing to do with the current, real factory farm situation which is perpetuated, or at least goes unquestioned, when we make certain dietary choices. hey - i case i sound too spiritual and righteous let me clarify. i feel that these ARE spiritual issues for me and i am characterologically righteous. yours truly Subj: me again Date: 96-06-04 03:23:35 EDT From: Shridevi i'm purposefully letting this part of my personality hang out. hope no one is TOO offended. I realize i sound pretty arrogant re: "my experience of siddha yoga is so different." of course it is not so different but for some reason, i do feel very "different" on this board. i do. i really appreciate these new voices. and still - some part of me feels like - this is not all there is to it for me. can i talk about teachings i value? can i wonder about shaivism here? can i say things like: i feel really strongly about eating meat and it really makes me sad that people are willing to eat animals, how can they do it???? because that is how i feel. so here is a quote from Nietszche that pertains to the ideology thing. Psychological Explanation. To trace something unknown back to something known is alleviating, soothing, gratifying and gives moreover a feeling of power. Danger, disquiet, anxiety attend the unknown - the first instinct is to eliminate these distressing states. First principle: any explanation is better than none. Because it is, at bottom, only a question of wanting to get rid of oppressive ideas, one is not exactly particular about what means one uses to get rid of them: proof by pleasure as criterion for truth. Thus, there is sought not only some kind of explanation as cause, but a selected and preferred kind of explanation, the kind by means of which the feeling of the strange, new, unexperienced is most speedily and most frequently abolished - the most common explanations. Consequence: a particular kind of cause ascription comes to preponderate more and more, becomes concentrated into a system and finally comes to dominate over the rest, that is to say simply to exclude other causes and explanations. The banker things at once of business, the christian of sin, the girl of her love. Subj: mr and mrs Date: 96-06-04 07:26:13 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear MR/MRs God - Welcome to the boards, and fasten your seat belts. While Howie and CKer have addressed your posts with their usual insight and intelligence, I can't resist adding my 2 cents - No, I would NEVER keep my mouth shut to anyone who told me they were thinking of visiting the ashram. I would immediately suggest they read the Rodarmor and the New Yorker articles and get a glimpse at the REAL history of SYDA, that they learn more about cults and about psychopathic cult leaders who exploit, abuse and manipulate followers, and I would urge them to pass the word on to others. There are no gains that can be made by a visit to the outer circle world of syda that don't also have the potential to lead to mental and financial exploitation. Why send them to SYDA? Why not sell them swamp land in Florida, or swindle them in some other way? I'd be curious to know more about your syda involvement - what makes you consider the ashram to have potential benefits on an "outer circle" basis, given what you know of the sexual abuses, financial abuses, and psychological abuses? How do you reconcile "outer benefits" with "inner rot, decay and corruption"? From my point of view, outer benefits gained from some person or leader or group that is rotten at the core, e.g., SYDA, tend to have a short shelf-life. Whatever I thought was beneficial in all those years of SYDA, I'm having to radically rethink now, because it doesn't work in a post-mind control milieu. Here in the free world, out from behind the syda iron curtain, the platitudes and hidden agendas and mixed messages of syda melt like the wicked witch of the west in water (thanks for the reference, BVena). Having real relationships, being real and relating to others in a real way, is a far cry from syda-culture. As far as scab-picking goes, what you are not observing is what I think is really happening for many on this board and many lurkers: which is, that our true, authentic self that we didn't have faith in, that was frightening and lonely to be with, that we tried to dispose of by adopting a syda self - this long submerged true, authentic self in us is finally taking the risk to re-emerge, feeling that others are around who it is safe to be real with. The emerging true self of those of us who have left syda needs lots of care, and it needs to understand what was frightening, it needs to find the words and the voice to speak its truth. This board is a good place, where important things are being said and considered, and where the syda illness and falseness is being shed. I think the agenda of the board (at least, as I see it from my own perspective) is not so much about disbanding SYDA as it is about developing a safe place for people to speak in the voice of their true selves - and this includes love and hate, peace and aggression - and it includes dredging up all the lies we told to ourselves and others - and airing it all out, telling the secrets and exposing the lies to the whole world, out loud and in print. It's entirely worthwhile, exhilarating, healing, fun, and meaningful to me. Please do stick around, have your say. If you don't mind arguing sometimes, crying sometimes, laughing sometimes, and just hanging out sometimes, it's a cool place to be. Dissent Subj: Shridevi's back Date: 96-06-04 07:52:40 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear Shri - Welcome back . You begin to get at some of your reasons for not being on board here lately. I don't fully understand what you mean and I would like to know more. You have raised some objections to what you see here, but I'm not sure if your objections are directed at things I've said, or at what someone else has said, or whether those things were said here or elsewhere (I don't mean the meat issue - that's clear). I'd like to know more directly, in the moment, what it is you object to or are reacting to. I'd like to feel that disagreements and anger are possible here and that no one will disintegrate or be destroyed by communicating honestly. Some of the things you wonder if you can talk about here safely must refer to things you've tried to talk about and have been attacked for saying - like how you value teachings of Shaivism, or how SY is a different experience for you than for others. Again, is it me that has attacked you for saying those things? Or someone else? Have I made it impossible or unpleasant for your ideas to be expressed here? I truly hope not, but if I have, I'd like to know. I'm very interested to know what you think, and would love to be able to argue with you or agree with you or agree to differ with you. Your posts do, however, sound like a put down of some of what is being said on the board - and what I would ask is that you say more directly and explicity who and what you're objecting to - at least, if it's me you're objecting to. Then I can grow and expand from our conversation, rather than shrink. Subj: The inner Dr. Smith 1/5 Date: 96-06-04 08:32:27 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Just suppose, as a reckless teenager, you had badly damaged your knee in an accident. For years after that you had to walk with crutches. The doctors tell you arthroscopic surgery won't help. Then you hear about a famous knee surgeon named Dr. Smith. He does a big operation and fixes your knee. Three weeks later you walk out of the hospital. You can walk again! You are ecstatic. Do you say, "This reconstructed knee is my inner Dr. Smith?" Do you say, "My ability to walk is IS Dr. Smith? Of course not. You are grateful for what Dr. Smith did, but you know it is your knee. God gave it to you, it was damaged in the accident, and Dr. Smith fixed it. He gave you what you wanted -- a repaired knee. In return, you gave him what he wanted -- a pile of money and an opportunity to practice his skill. Dr. Smith likes both of these things a lot. He was very glad to operate on your knee. You are also very glad. You have even learned to respect egomaniacal doctors. Despite their egotism and greed, they sometimes do very helpful things. Of course in your daily life you still stay as far as you can from people like that. But you have learned to see their value and recognize that they have their appropriate place. You are grateful for what one of them did for you. In addition to being able to walk again, you go on with your life a little more grown up, with a more mature understanding of the world. Subj: The inner Dr. Smith 2/5 Date: 96-06-04 08:33:43 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Several years after your knee surgery, you discover some disturbing patterns in your life that have repeatedly thwarted you. You realize certain tendencies of yours have caused many of the problems in your life. These tendencies have manifested themselves in self destructive ways. You have a friend who has gotten his life together recently. He tells you he underwent therapy with an excellent psychologist named Dr. Smith. You call Dr. Smith and he agrees to be your therapist. You spend 2 years in therapy. During therapy you become aware of your once unconscious tendencies. You learn how to recognize them when they start to influence you. You learn how to make decisions without being controlled by them. As therapy continues, you discover how these unconscious tendencies developed as a result of painful, confusing events in your life. You recognize your inner goodness. You realize how much your parents loved you, and how much they wanted the best for you, despite all their flaws and their misunderstanding of who you really are. As a result of therapy you have passed through confusion, anger and grief to find forgiveness. You find love in your heart, and you feel the goodness which is part of humanity. You become a better person as a result of therapy and you are very grateful for Dr. Smith's help. Do you put a picture of Dr. Smith in your bedroom and bow to it every day? Do you say that your state of psychological health is "THE INNER DR. SMITH"? No. You recoginze that you have found your own human decency which had been distorted by the pains and confusions of growing up in a flawed world. You are grateful for Dr. Smith's help and you have learned to respect psychotherapy, which you once thought was silly. You just don't worship your therapist. Dr. Smith practices psychotherapy because he enjoys working with people in that way. He loves his work. It brings him much satisfaction, and of course he is very well paid for it. You gave him a pile of money and the satisfaction of practicing his art. He gave you some tools for self understanding, and helped you use them to improve your life. You both got what you wanted. It was a fair deal and an honorable relationship, a small triumph of human dignity. You go on with your life. ( to be continued... ) Subj: Ideological Co-optation? 1/2 Date: 96-06-04 09:52:34 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 2 Dear Shridevi, You say <<<(I) almost constantly contemplated what I learned, through my own chewing on it, to be the differences between narcissistically driven, ideological co-optation of spiritual concepts and something else which still fascinates me. I need to find a way to give voice to my experience that doesn't feel to me that I am just being co-opted into the next default interpretive frame. this "cult" discourse is one of those things which is useful for me only to a point.>>> AVOIDING DEFAULT INTERPRETATIVE FRAMES I don't think you need to find a way to express an individual voice--I think you have already found it. I wouldn't even put it in those terms. I would rather simply say: you are gifted at self-expression. Your voice is so distinct and creative that when I read what you say I enjoy it for reasons having nothing to do with SYDA per se, but just with the sheer "spanda" of insights and style, vibrating on the page. If you are frustrated that people (like me!) tend to borrow ideas in a fairly crude way, and can be easily deconstructed into our constituent "standard" sources--mainline psychology, pop philosophy, anti-cult literature, French revolution cum American individualism, old wives tales--all I can say is, we're just doing what we can! A lot of us will never be the next Wittgenstein or Carnap; we are merely trying to use what tools we have to get things off our chest. There must be places out there in which your literary/intellectual individuality can find a proper context. Are you hoping that we will rise to your level, will be able to completely shake free of standard turns of phrase-thought, will be able to find a Joyceian epiphany through a mastery of thought unencumbered by the weight of consensual realities? I'm just some shmuck muddling along. I'll always disappoint you. But on the other hand, you never disappoint me--I do appreciate you and your special expressive gift. Like Baba would have probably said, "Siddha students, unconditionally accept the AOL chat boards for what they are"--I'll leave it at that. My Stimpy-esque, domestic-doglike acceptance of these boards doesn't mean that I don't hope that someone like you will come along and "share." Don't confuse a rhetorical stance for a "default interpretative frame." Rough-hewn modes of expression--involving simplified metaphors, cliches, colloquial expressions, and arguments from common-sense--are characteristic of genres aimed at broad audiences. As I'm sure you know, the use of this kind of "dialect" is a good way to "absent the author" in broad-audience genres, and thus make them more persuasive. SEE PART 2 Subj: Ideological Co-optation? 2/2 Date: 96-06-04 09:53:03 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 2 Dear Shridevi, you say <<>> CELEBRATING HETEROGENEITY I was happy with the board as "ONE," with supporters and critics merged. I think it is a retreat to a blinkered position to be segregated on separate boards (though I'm fine with it because it has led to a different, interesting set of conditions for communication). So when you bemoan the loss of heterogeneity, I would go so far as to say that the existence of separate folders should also be bemoaned. On these boards people can dish it out but they can't take it. This is THE problem, and the only way to address it is for people to say WHATEVER THEY WISH, NO HOLDS BARRED. For example, I call Gurumayi a con artist, and I do this because it is what I want to say. Of course every manner of attack might be levelled at me. Should I feel it is unfair if someone calls me an insane hate-monger? Of course that is a response which is to be expected. In general, becoming a target of criticism is the price-tag of self-expression. Others, quite rightly, can and should come back at any of us with their views NO HOLDS BARRED. So with heterogeneity comes the possibility of critiques from right field. That's why people resist heterogeneity, and would rather "circle their wagons." Specifically, people who are criticized sometimes can't handle it and go off into lurker status, or feel injured, or otherwise feel the board is an environment they cannot tolerate. This I understand perfectly. I don't see any way of stopping this from happening, though, without smothering people's voices. When criticisms fly, some people like to sit around and analyze who hurt whom. Some have even called for straw polls of who supports whom. When there is too much social jockeying and finger-wagging around here, it feels like a Miss Manners tea-party environment, where you are okay only if you raise your cup with the crook of your little finger. This is to be expected, and I don't see anything wrong with it. It's part of the inevitable "residue" produced on a chat forum like this. A public AOL message board is not a recovery group, nor an anti-cult gathering spot, though it may at times take on characteristics of those things. Anyone who wants it to be any one thing and stay there is going to be sorely disappointed. DISCOURSE: AOL STYLE <<>> Cyberspace is the wild west of discourse. This board is what we bring to it. Shridevi, if you are engaged enough in these message boards to lurk, for goodness sakes please post! From your recent posts, it sounds like you think some fresh air needs to be introduced here. Please help us out (even if we strike you as homogeneous and a bit slow). Best wishes to you. Subj: Re:Ideological Co-optation? 2/ Date: 96-06-04 12:05:48 EDT From: Shridevi maybe i will sit back and start to pay a little more attention (as opposed to the skimming i've been doing.) i don't have a "this" or "that" well thought out criticism, or a beef with a particular person - i just have this vague feeling - some kind of restlessness that i want to express to you all. i'm squirming. yes - maybe sometimes it does feel like an alice miller style support group. some atmosphere (by no means hoisted up as doctrine but just floating innocuously about) that there needs to be some coming to terms with the past as past, experience grief over the years of life lost to something that is not at all what we believed it to be etc. this is certainly PART of my experience but not by any means all of it. (i'm not making any assumptions that this is all of anyone else's experience either. remember: i've only been skimming and my responses are vague and amorphous.) what about if i want to talk about what is really going on in my life right now? the questions i really have? will i have larryom's fate? probably not but i don't want to risk it. as for the comments i made about psychology and some responses - geez! of course i'm not really so lame as to be talking about this on the level of worshipping shrinks. if that was what we had to worry about things would be safe and easy. no. i spent thousands and thousands of hours being trained to be a shrink and i can go on and on about my existential confrontation with that profession. i refuse to be comforted by some metaphysical notion of "working out my unconscious issues" with somebody whose own unconscious has already been invisibly cult-ivated by the very technology he/she wishes to share with me. no thanks. it is not that i feel i risk some dangerous transference worship trip. it is that i risk losing the deep and subtle openness to life, to my wounds, which is the source of some creativity, which allows me to remain un-familiar with things and therefore to truly SEE them, to go to new places, places i have not read about, to put words together that have not been put together and when i surrender to the interpretations which gather in groups around me i can feel - i lose something. like magnetic fields, the words start to form patterns that recur - i start to see generalities, like trees - rather than the heart wrenching singularity of each thing. of course, i know that one can have "peak experiences" and still be getting something out of therapy - but even saying that i want to barf at its banality. the language is so lame. ick. and there are other reasons that i steer clear of the interpretive project of psychotherapy. how can i describe them all? i would have to do a lot of thinking just to get it to the intelligible stage. i used to be able to talk about it, but lately, since i don't have shrinks for friends, i've not needed to. I don't see ideology as some "other" thing out there that we can carve out of our beings and look at as separate. for me, what we are looking at is just the costume we thought ideology was wearing for a while. for me, ideology is the process of identification. it is that, which in any given moment, we feel is the "natural", "authentic" state. we used to feel sy was our spiritual home. now we have some other ideas. and in between, in those moments of confusion, for me - that is where the juice is. but hey - what i'm talking about here is NOT my claim to truth. this is not how i see "reality." this is my AESTHETIC approach to the fluid substance called life. thanks for listening. Subj: On lameness, "i," and goulash Date: 96-06-04 13:16:52 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear Shridevi, You say <<> A psych book ain't Milton, I'd agree with that. There is a lot of "lameness" out there, to be sure. But the "lame" attempts at articulating ideas made by "lesser" (wo)men have their place and their appropriate audience, just as schmucks like me do (till eugenics becomes the order of the day, at least!). Some person who is unable to recognize Milton as English might love Maltz's "I'm OK You're OK." If this semi-literate person has a psychological or spiritual problem, is Derrida really going to open his eyes? Since you speak on the nature and form of what Wittgenstein would refer to as language-games, I find it bizarre that you use the lower case "i" for a personal pronoun. One might say, "ick." Is that because you don't want to hit the shift key? It reminds me of how SYDA-zombies went "ooh and aah" because Bhagwan Nityananda referred to himself as "this one" instead of "I." Hey, I'm full of my own linguistic affectations too, so I'm pointing the finger at myself as much as at you. Let's cut each other some slack for the lamenesses we all have in our use of language. I too am sometimes offput by therapist-language online here, but nevertheless appreciate the fact that people are trying to make points at all. However "lamely" stated, the points made are often good ones. Shridevi, you say <<>> To be threatened by consensus is a fragile individualism. Individualism without connectedness to others is an unhappy sociopathy. I'm not threatened by people using generalizations and general concepts just to create some kind of baseline for communication here. If we all go off and have our own individual experience and view of life, great! But when it comes time to talking with one another, we have to use language. Language, idioms, and communication are based on semantic/syntactic consensus--consensus upon which structured ideas can be built. Without a willigness to enter into consensus, language is consigned to the realm of animal grunts. There is no way around this. What good is individual expression if the only person capable of understanding you is you yourself? You can't even tell us what specifically you are referring to in your last posts; instead, you evade by commenting on the entire board as if it were some kind of generalized goulash. Consequently, I am forced to take your claim of being ever-attentive to particularities as disingenuous. Are you, or are you not, talking about Dissent? That was his question, and it was simple enough. If it is not him you are referring to specifically, can you at least tell us if he instantiates what you are talking about? Since you haven't responded except to say that the atmosphere of the board is generally this and that, how can I take your championing of the "individual expressive moment" seriously? I (and probably you also) find the unwillingness to become specific and the darting and floating in ideological soup to be the badge of mind control, groupthink, interpretational homogeneity, ideological conformism, or whatever you want to call it (depending on your taste in literature and diction). I agree with you, that we should not fall into lockstep with one another just for the sake of preserving a "recovery group" feeling here. I post this message in the spirit of heterogeneity which you are trying to encourage online here. Good to hear your voice again, and best wishes. Subj: Re:On lameness, "i," and goula Date: 96-06-04 14:11:00 EDT From: Shridevi i'm not threatened by consensus - nor am i snooty about what people are saying. i think there are a million great things being said here. and yes, i am too lazy to hit the shift key. have you ever been in the place where you feel something viscerally and it takes a while to put words to it? that is all i'm saying. i like it but . . . i'm squirming so . . . i'm saying something. "i'm squirming." did i sound global? "I am ever attentive"??? if you think i'm disgingenous, i don't care. frankly. i'm not out here trying to get people to read derrida. god (8&%ing) forbid! yes - dissent instantiates what i'm talking about with regards to eating meat. no - dissent is not a uniform discourse that instantiates, in one single person, what i'm talking about about psychology. yes, dissent finds that discourse way more useful that i do. satisfied? all this blah blah about how i probably agree with you about this or that - about how this is a safe place to say things because we are all tolerant (said by you, dissent and others in various ways) makes me squirm. i feel very good about the things that are said here. i agree, disagree, am intrigued and am bored. but i'm not tolerant. sure, i mean - i'm tolerant. but i'm not going to make sweeping statements about how this is a safe place (therapy lingo) and all that. it is not ok for larry to say stuff. he gets told he is righteous and moralizing. I am righteous and moralizing. if that has not been clear from the beginning, no one really was paying attention. but no one, until now, told me i was righeous and moralizing because i was saying the same thing as everyone else and so my righteousness was invisible. and even now, i think, people will be more polite to me because i have not been apriori divested of my ordinary humanness the way larry has. i find that elitist. selective tolerance. am i way off? it bothered me in the ashram and it bothers me here. and if i am "out of it" for saying so - well, what can i say. and the trip to NOT be righteous is just a righteous trip. i'm not saying this to be clever. i'm saying it because it really ticks me off. we talk about being human, well - here it is. back to my current "fav" example - vegetarianism. i've eaten meat - dead cows, chickens, fish, drank wine, done drugs you name it. i don't have a purity thing going, or even a health thing. (though you can really get HIGH off of purity and health too) but i really am judgemental about people who eat meat. i like them, they are my friends and all but i admit to lots of judgement. i really think they are putting blinders on to be able to do that. i really think they are fooling themselves in ways that are not unlike the way people fool themselves in the 'shram. these things on your plate are capable, not only of physical pain but of higher feelings like compassion, grief, fear, love. we have all heard over and over again about factory farms - assembly line murder. animals herded into places where they can't move and watch other animals slaughtered until it is there turn. we have all seen pictures of pigs being butchered, of cows, with their big eyes looking at you, they will respond positively to any kind of touch, they are driven insane, they are on the menu. we are casual. we have all read these things just like we have all read co-evolution quarterly and ignored it, new yorker and ignored it, whatever. we stopped ignoring the suffering that we supported in siddha yoga, when will we stop ignoring the suffering of the meat industry. ??? yes - i am intolerant. profoundly intolerant. i want the world to be a better place, god*** it!! and if you eat meat - i'm talking to you now. why not give it up? it is not good for you. it is not romantic. it is not like it was in other cultures at other times. it is sick. it is ONLY sick. there is my "diverse" p.o.v. righteous, intolerant and not trying to hide it. Subj: Re:On lameness, "i," and goula Date: 96-06-04 14:20:16 EDT From: Shridevi read the first few lines of your post again. you know how you say really strong things and people think you are some kind of fanatic, white knuckled to your keyboard with no life? and you know how i instantly knew you were just sitting there having fun? casually saying atrocious things because, why not? that thing you quoted where i talked about lameness and ick and all that - that was coming from a very similar place. i am fiercly intolerant and ALSO way full of humor. i'm sitting here thinking "what do i want to just haul off and say" so i haul off and say it. (with some trepidation - lest people have images of white knuckles or thick glasses.) i'm still trying to decide, honestly, if the post about therapists on pujas was of the category "saying something important in simple language for the sake of communication" or "patronizing" or both. i never would have thought twice about it because, after all, i assume fibonnaci and i are on the same page. but i'm letting myself wonder. sociopathic? are you putting me in the same category as narada now? or are you just making a general statement with no real "specifics" in mind. are you making goulash, howie? or are you just saying what you feel like saying. this could get really out there. hanging in there, shree Subj: Shree,let's get out there! 1/4 Date: 96-06-04 18:02:44 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 4 Dear Shridevi, Thanks for your marvelous response. It's great talking to you again. In the spirit of your recent "true confession," may I join in? I, Howie, am one intolerant, moralizing, generalizing, and generally out-of-control loudmouth (as everyone knows)! I sure don't hide it, I don't think. Perhaps my use of dissembling language such as "brainwashed zombie-ostrich" is too subtle . . . I'll work on being a bit more forthright. You say <<>> Yes, you are way off. The reason I feel strongly about this is because Larry and I are, in a way, twins. We both shoot our mouths off and get a lot of flak. You say Larry has been divested of his humanness. Since in the history of the AOL boards I have been attacked far more than he has and more viciously (including death threats), have I been divested of my humanness? Add to this the fact that Larry is extremely articulate, with well-formed views, and is quite capable of defending himself. If he has martyr status, why can't I have martyr status? If we are going to have Larry Christ, why not have Howie Christ too? Is it because I don't measure up in some way? I'll even shave my armpits if you put me on the cross. Promise. I have always been perfectly happy with Larry posting whatever he likes. I am perfectly happy with you saying Larry has been divested of his humanity. And I am perfectly happy with saying to you that I think yours is a bizarre statement with partisan overtones. I'm a pretty happy guy! All this happiness holds even when I tell Larry to go jump in the lake. And I know that when Larry tells me to go jump in the lake, that doesn't mean he's trying to silence my voice. I'm sure this is perfectly clear to both Larry and me. If ten people attack Larry, I have no control over that. Nor do I want to control that. If twenty people attack me, and tell me I have no right to say X, Y, or Z, I have no control over that, nor do I want to control that. I just don't see what the problem is. And if people find you less obnoxious than Larry, that's just their point of view. Isn't that okay also? (I'll shave my armpits now, and wait by the phone.) SEE PART 2 Subj: Shree,let's get out there! 2/4 Date: 96-06-04 18:02:51 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 Dear Shridevi, You say <<> YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING! SAID BY ME? If I have ever given the impression that I go for that "safe place" and "tolerant" manure, please cut my tongue out for my own good! I'M SQUIRMING WITH YOU ON THIS ONE! The whole notion of enclosing discourse within "moderate limits" and collapsing this into a manor house tea party makes me sick. Of all things, that "tsk tsk, spiritual people (or recovery people) don't talk like that" bullTOS is the lowest thing that appears on these boards, for me. These issues are charged, and any attempt to pretend they are not is a product of severe brainwashing in which the appearance of things rather than their substance is what is valued. Keeping everything modulated and proper, and giving dirty looks to people who use the wrong fork, is A CORE DYNAMIC OF MIND CONTROL in families, professions, social groups, and cults. You say, <<>> LOL! Narada is in a category by himself! I said "individualism without connectedness to others is an unhappy sociopathy." This was directly referring to your statement, <<>>. The connection between the two is, I trust, clear. My statement was begging the response you did go on and give in your subsequent post. My statement refers to your statement--with probably a bit of goulash, with a bit of capriciousness, and with a bit of generalization (on the side). Let me say that I hate groupthink as much as the next guy. (Me and the next guy are of one mind on this.) SEE PART 3 Subj: Shree,let's get out there! 3/4 Date: 96-06-04 18:02:58 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 3 Dear Shridevi, You say <<>> No one, certainly not me, has yet called you righteous and moralizing (except yourself). If you are referring to me in this, you are wrong. I did find your last two posts to be peculiarly diffuse and abstract. I thought, "It sounds like Shridevi's talking about Dissent since he is someone who posts a lot and uses therapeutic language. Dissent interprets her post similarly. What is she driving at? This reads like goulash. I'll write a post to her and maybe get this confusion cleared up." It turned out I was wrong in my reading of your post, since it was a squirming feeling you were getting at--and diffuse language conveys such vagaries. As for being righteous and moralizing, I've got no problem with that. If I did, I'd have to censor myself. <<>> As you must know, my comment about Derrida was a criticism of the opaque, inflated writing style in your last posts; this criticism formed part of my post's last theme, which was a plea for you to become more specific. No biggie. SEE PART 4 Subj: Shree,let's get out there! 4/4 Date: 96-06-04 18:03:02 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 4 Dear Shridevi, You say <<>> Hope it does. If you and I can't really "get out there," who can? It's funner out there. And funnier. Very glad to hear from you again. Give me another minute or so, and I'll probably calm down and not write short books to you everytime you post. Again, with all best wishes. Subj: Shree,let's get out there! 5/5 Date: 96-06-04 18:34:55 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 5 (which was supposed to begin part 4!) Dear Shridevi, You say <<>> Understood. (You know I was just fishing around, in the hope of receiving some kind of clarification!) By the way, I myself indulge in the snooty schoolmarm trip now and then. <<>> Understood. I continue to find it bizarre that you are marvelously analytical about your own and others' language, but choose to use the small "i," which (to the uninformed) adds a New Age patina to your text. I'm sure you know what I mean about the "small "i" = humble ego" nonsense that does indeed go around in New Age writing circles. <<>> Understood. I see what you mean. <<<"I am ever attentive"???>>> Yes, I took a little license in recharacterizing as "ever-attentive" your statement about striving to preserve the <<>>. I just couldn't resist pointing out that your laudation of the experientially SPECIFIC was wedded to a fantastically UNSPECIFIC account of the AOL discussion. Those kind of things tend to catch my eye. No biggie. <<>> The point isn't whether you (or I) care or not. (I'm thick-skinned also!) I was asking: is your abstract style disingenuous, that is: underneath the goulash appearance, are you saying something about specific people and concepts? I think that is a fair question, given the way your last posts were worded. Once again, you say <<>> Hope it does! Again, with all best wishes. Subj: Personal check-in Date: 96-06-04 19:49:11 EDT From: Violet1884 Well, my head is reeling from the posts the last few days! I must say I do not completely understand what is going on. Firstly there is a big fight with Larryom - seems like it has to do with things that went on before I come on here, so I’ll let it go. Then there is a SERIOUS philosophical discussion that I have to admit I do not completely follow because it is not what I find interesting on this board at the moment (maybe later (g) ). Part of me is nervous to bring the discussion back to the more personal, anecdotal level that I tend to speak at - but what the heck, it is what I need right now and it is what I am finding helpful in my leaving SYDA. So I am going to go for it. I have found an enormous amount of change has occurred for me over the last two weeks (since my “its been a hard week” post). I feel lighter everyday, am feeling more and more disconnected from SYDA and all that that entails. Almost all the pictures are down from my house (I have a lot) and I am currently contemplating how to take the SYDA out of my very beautiful mediation room but still keep the “quiet place”. I have connected with a few people IRL who have left SYDA and the time and discussion I have had with them has really helped to normalize my current experience. These are people who have had the same experiences as I have had at our local center - who says “outer circle people” are not abused or hurt by SYDA - NONSENSE. I (and others I am now finding) have many “scars” to prove it! I now 100% believe that SYDA is a dangerous cult, that is abuses and exploits people in an infinite variety of ways. Like Dissent222, I would not keep quiet if faced with someone who wanted to join SYDA. Like him I would refer them to the written evidence so they could avoid the years of destructive association that many of us have had and , if it felt safe enough, I would tell of my own experiences and advise - do not get involved in this! For me the pain is almost gone, and the exhilaration of getting free is taking over. I suppose waves of pain may return but it will be temporary if and when it does. My process now is to examine carefully the inner thought processes that still remain that are remnants of SYDA and reduce my ability to be the strong, self assured woman that I am. I remember when I first stopped attending SYDA programs and stopped doing any seva, I started to volunteer for a community service organization. Since childhood I have been a comfortable and good public speaker. When I was in SYDA I did MCing and other speaking seva from time to time. Anyone who has been involved in SYDA knows of the heavy tutoring that molds every public (and sometimes private) word spoken within the SYDA walls. When I started to speak for the community service organization, I found that my self-confidence had disappeared. Whereas in the past I would of spoken easily and well, I found I was hesitant and nervous that I would say something “unapproved”. This was terrifying but fortunately I recognized it for exactly what it was - SYDA brain washing. Anyway, life can only get better from here on out. Thanks for being here... Violet. Subj: Good for you Shridevi Date: 96-06-04 19:50:13 EDT From: Violet1884 First of all “welcome back” Shridevi. I am glad to see you posting again. I have to say that your story on this board was one of the influences on my “delurking”. Thank you for your openness and for telling us the truth from your perspective. And congratulations of getting free of the cult that you were brought up in from childhood. I often think of you, and the other children I have seen over the years, who were brought up at the feet of the guru. I always think that this must be a very different experience than it was for those of us whom came into SYDA as adults. I am sure your experience was different and I am sure that the after effects for you are different than those for people like me who adults before they ever heard SGMKJ! The things we are taught as children to be “the truth” are very difficult to change. I admire your courage and strength. In your posts today I especially love your frank and open commitment to animal rights!! You and I are in the same camp there!! I totally agree with you. You sum it up so well with: “I think that there meaningful things to say about the relationship between * the ethical choices people make about supporting siddha yoga and *the ethical choices people make about supporting the meat industry. In both cases, people chose to desensitize themselves from the suffering of other beings in order to maintain lifestyles that "feel good." in the case of sy, there is this throwback to tantra to make it seem natural. in the case of carnivorousness, there is invocation of tribal mesopotamia or some romantic european or native lifestyle which has nothing to do with the current, real factory farm situation which is perpetuated, or at least goes unquestioned, when we make certain dietary choices. “ One of the sad things I have noticed happening with people who leave SYDA is that in their desire to get rid of all things SYDA (and I understand that desire) they go back to meat eating. It seems to me that they are making animals pay for their own pain. I have always found it personally irritating that it has been assumed that I am a vegetarian (and have been for over 20 years) because of SYDA. I was a vegetarian LONG before I ever heard of SYDA and I will be vegetarian long after SYDA is no more than a passing thought in my mind! I cannot stand the reasons SYDA gives for eating a vegetarian diet, i.e., it helps meditation etc. What self centered, egotistical reasons! As far as I am concerned there is only one truly ethical reason to be a vegetarian and that is because my humanness gives me NO right to take the lives of those of other species. And, as you say, this is a spiritual value. I guess, like you say of yourself Shridevi, I am arrogant and judgmental when it comes to animals and eating them! Thanks so much for opening up this subject is such a direct way! I appreciate it. Thanks for being here. Violet. Subj: Safety Date: 96-06-04 19:50:54 EDT From: Violet1884 Dissent, you say, “I think the agenda of the board (at least, as I see it from my own perspective) is not so much about disbanding SYDA as it is about developing a safe place for people to speak in the voice of their true selves - and this includes love and hate, peace and aggression - and it includes dredging up all the lies we told to ourselves and others - and airing it all out, telling the secrets and exposing the lies to the whole world, out loud and in print. It's entirely worthwhile, exhilarating, healing, fun, and meaningful to me.” I agree and it would be a major loss to me, at least at this time, if the board was no longer “safe for people to speak in the voice of their true selves”. We need to be very careful not to loose that safety even when we do not agree with what people say or how they say it. Thanks for being here. Violet. Subj: Re:Safety Date: 96-06-04 20:50:33 EDT From: Shridevi ok - i feel better. in the interest of de-confusing y'all (kind of like de-lurking only different) let me "share with you" (you've got to say it in the therapeutic tone of voice to get the full effect) what "in-sights" (tone of voice) i've had. i wigged out because i felt like larry was being picked on. this began as just a visceral squirm and then evolved into a full frontal lobe thought form. because i was so talked about behind my back in the 'shram and it hurt my feelings so much i just have this second grade, people are getting picked on thing that spewed forth. i remember when, early on, dissent, you said something to me about larry in an e-mail. it felt like a great shedding of spiritual niceyness at the time and i'm sure it is nothing you haven't said to larry himself at one time or another. but i just feel woah - what if *i* shrideviji were to push somebodies buttons and they said that about me to somebody else. could i feel this is a safe place? it was a little (as they say) "crazy making." but now i'm back and will just take care of myself. k? and oh by the way - thank you violet for your thing about animals. it IS an arrogant excuse isn't it! glad to open up a topic. i have lots of anecdotes i will share when i have more time. (like when i had a dream that derrida gave me darshan . . .) just kidding. shree but i am glad that i got a chance to Subj: random babble Date: 96-06-04 23:38:25 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear AOL readers - Let me find another way of saying "safe place" that is not redolent of gifted children engaging in dramatic pursuits ( to shridevi), although Alice Miller is no shlepper in my book. (For non-therapy types, read Alice Miller's "Drama of the Gifted Child" - a landmark book about narcissism and bad parenting, which I personally love, in spite of the possibly derogatory remarks about it made by a person with lower case pronoun syndrome ). Actually, what I'd really like is for this to be an UNSAFE place, where any loonybin can say whatever they want, and any other loony bin can post any kind of retort. And I mean this seriously. In other words, I used to think that the board should be this way or that way so that lurkers would be encouraged to delurk and more and more people would feel connected and helped by what they read here. Now I think it's fine for anyone to say whatever, because I have decided not to restrain or constrict myself, and if I'm mad about someone's attitude, to go ahead and get pugnacious. Also, I've been regaining the sense of humor I used to have before syda, and I've been out of syda almost 2 years now, so I don't get as intensely emotional about all this as I did a while back. However, since I also really care about how deeply destructive syda is to the lives of the individuals who join it and also to the lives of the family members of those people, I want to be encouraging to others about reading all this stuff and coming on and telling their story. Because there ain't too many places this can get talked about and people feel mighty lonely and crazy about this stuff, on their own. shridevi, sorry Larry getting picked on bothers you. Dishing it out on this board does tend to lead to having to take it some times - and I've taken plenty (no death threats, but hate mail aplenty). It comes with the territory. By the way, what is it that I instantiate or transubstantiate or whatever? I'm not quite getting it. Finally, what should the people who eat meat who are reading this board do? Should we kill ourselves? Grovel at the feet of those who find meat eating despicable, beg your forgiveness? You know, is this the meat board or the syda board? I respect your right to hold your views about this, but I will still eat meat if I want to. My vote is that I would like to see that subject discussed on the "Ethics - Meat Eating is an Abomination" board, and not here. I think there are more important fish to fry here (some of you are laughing, right?) Love, Dissentypoo (that's what Amanda would call me if she were on this board - anyone remember Amanda? Don't get me started.) Subj: Re:random babble Date: 96-06-05 03:16:06 EDT From: PERDUCO Dear y'all, Without launching into a full fledged panegyric, I would like to be nominated by HowieSm and Shridevi for local AOL message board psychotic, to be unleashed when called on, and often arriving uninvited. Duties include deconstruction and other hammers. Caritas, Perduco Subj: don't lose your voice Date: 96-06-05 05:41:32 EDT From: Dissent222 First, before writing, let me go within and do mental puja to Wittgenstein, Derrida, Kant, Hegel, Schopenhauer, Nietzche, Husserl, Heidegger and a Hey Nonny No, Madame Blavatsky, Alice Miller, Alice B. Toklas, Alice in Wonderland, Alfred E. Newman and, what the Hey, my favorite writers, P.G. Wodehouse and S.J.Perelman. Harry Om That's That. Now, Violet, I loved something you said, and I quote: "My process now is to examine carefully the inner thought processes that still remain that are remnants of SYDA and reduce my ability to be the strong, self assured woman that I am." One thing I have observed is that strong women have a hard time in this world. Their strength isn't often encouraged or rewarded. The pain and conflict some women feel about asserting themselves and having to swim upstream against the expectations of parents, teachers, bosses, husbands, etc., can be tormenting. Enter SYDA, especially with GM at the helm. SYDA provides a perfect context for a strong woman to collapse and give up the fight: surrender to a supposedly strong, magic woman. So you're a radical lesbian feminist (I don't mean you, Violet)? Give it up! - wear makeup, dye and perm your hair and wear a poofy bow in it, wear femme clothes -- hey -- get married!!! GM can find you a gay man to marry, or some guy who wants a celibate marriage. I won't name names but I can. So you're an intellectual, brilliant woman with a razor-sharp intellect and you've published a number of brilliant, enraged feminist manifestos in major journals and newspapers? HA! Surrender! As Swami Durgananda, whom I am speaking of, did. Give up the painful struggle for strength and freedom and assertion. Surrender and spend your life being whipped like a dog, and then fawning and groveling and wagging your tail at the guru that whipped you. Fetch for her, lie down and roll over for her, lie for her and turn your intellect into mush for her. Surrender and spend your life as the masochistic, battered spouse of a dominatrix-guru. So you're the CEO of a major manufacturing company in a big industrial town? (This is a woman I know). And you've got 3 kids and a husband and a tyrant father who was never satisfied with you as you are? You've got tons of money but you don't ever feel that anybody has ever really loved you enough or seen or heard you enough? Surrender, go for every magic trick in the new age, be strong all day but collapse in the guru's arms, become a helpless child again, a good girl who will finally get to feel loved because of how good she is. Violet, your experience of no confidence in something you were always good at was my experience, too, after I left. To speak authentically in your own voice with no tutoring? How dare you? I have been steadily regaining this confidence. GM convinced me that I was nothing without her. That's a ****** lie. There's plenty of hard-core abuse in syda to decry, but I have a hard time deciding whether it's that stuff, sexual abuse, etc., that I hate the most - or if it's this lie that we buy, that we're nothing without her. This lie seems at least as destructive and heinous as all the more concrete stuff. Thanks for your thougths on this. Dissent Subj: Re:mr and mrs Date: 96-06-05 09:08:03 EDT From: MrMrs God Thanks for your response, Dissent! We agree on this: One's true self is the center of everything. It is our task to overcome whatever has happened to us through shame/blame to damage us, whether through crazy families of origin or phony spiritual leaders. What we've concluded through much pain is so obvious: We must love and respect ourselves first, and act accordingly. This sounds SY, but it's universal. Dis, there are split families in SY, believers and nonbelievers. There are those who've contacted me/us who say that they have people they love who still need to believe the SY party line, because they were *indeed* transformed for the better because of their faith in the Guru. This, of course, has nothing to do with the facts; it has everything to do with what they *believe* are the facts. These people are not yet psychologically strong enough to have their beliefs exploded before they have something else ready--and better--to substitute. One must tread carefully and with love. It would, IMO, be a grave disservice to harm a person by destroying the fantasy that holds them together, simply because of righteous outrage on the part of another. It is an ethical question that is worth serious and sympathetic examination. Subj: Re:Personal check-in Date: 96-06-05 09:45:03 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 Violet said: <> I couldn't agree with you more. Personally, I am bored by all the Derridaesque deconstruction that is going on in here and it was what I feared would happen once the Losing My Religion board got 86ed. I'm not here to debate, I'm here to heal. Maybe I'm ghoulish, but I want to hear horror stories. They help me to know I'm not alone. I don't think the abuses can be expounded upon enough. Someone told me a tale of SY sadism last night that hit so close to home that today, my heart feels ripped out. It's painful, but if I am ever to get free, I need to hear this kind of thing. What do the rest of you think? I'm not advocating that people speak one way or another -- and no one should shut up on account of me -- I'm just concerned that the boards don't get so dominated by University of Chicago School of Social Thought-type sentence-parsing marathons and vegetarian soap-boxing that we end up sniping at one another and forget why we came together here in the first place. I feel like I might get beaten up for saying this (like I'm limiting the AOL guru or something!) but so be it, that's where I'm at. (As Dissent would likely point out, I can beat myself up better and faster than anyone else, so there!) Let's not retreat from feeling and healing, guys. Subj: Re:don't lose your voice Date: 96-06-05 09:59:49 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 Diss, great post about strong women and how they cannot remain so in SY. It's really amazing how people change in that environment, and I don't mean for the better. GM is the only woman in the ashram who is allowed to appear "strong." I always looked up to her as the ultimate strong woman but I have noticed from time to time how the women there never emulate the strong aspects of her behavior. They copy her gestures, the way she walks, chants, speach patterns, etc. but no one else has that "strength," which in anyone else would be interpreted as ego, arrogance, etc. I noticed something else too. A few times I (a woman BTW, perhaps a strong one) tried to participate in the Atma Vichara ("soul-inquiry") discussions that took place last spring and fall. I would always have a point that I was dying to make that was sort of contrarian to or better-thought-out than the namby-pamby stuff that was being said. I was never called on -- and then GM would make the very point I had wanted to make. I don't know how they do it -- it's not like I'm well known there, that any hall monitor would point to me and think, "Ah, a person of intellect, musn't let her speak." But it always worked out that all this dopey claptrap would be voiced in those satsangs and then brilliantly summed up or shot down by GM at the end. No one else could shine, no one else could appear to have any brains. I hope I can blossom as a strong woman here at least without fear of censure. Roooaaaarrrrrr! Subj: Howie apologizes Date: 96-06-05 10:39:23 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Sorry for flooding the boards with pseudo-intellectual verbiage! I just get verbal hives when I'm exposed to bullTOS, and break out in big red words. My friends know I wear a shirt that says "HELP! I'M TALKING AND I CAN'T SHUT UP!" Maybe I should tell you all that I'm taking a vow of silence (so I can secretly go away and have a SYDA-guru plastic surgery procedure done on my cheekbones and jawline, to be paid for by your dakshina dollars). I'll be "a good Howie" now, and will only speak when spoken to. Fibs, Violet, and Hrdaya--right on, with your recent posts! And PERDUCO--I hereby nominate you, as you requested. Do I hear a second? (We must follow Robert's Rules of Order around here, of course.) Party on, dudes and dudettes! Subj: Veggies can speak! Date: 96-06-05 11:53:14 EDT From: Violet1884 Dissent - Do you see any inconsistencies between the following two statements of yours? - I do! 1. ”Now I think it's fine for anyone to say whatever .....” and a few lines later .... 2. “I would like to see that subject discussed on the "Ethics - Meat Eating is an Abomination" board, and not here ......” Actually, Shridevi stated very clearly the basis for the relationship of this topic to this board with - “I think that there meaningful things to say about the relationship between * the ethical choices people make about supporting siddha yoga and *the ethical choices people make about supporting the meat industry. In both cases, people chose to desensitize themselves from the suffering of other beings in order to maintain lifestyles that "feel good." in the case of sy, there is this throwback to tantra to make it seem natural. in the case of carnivorousness, there is invocation of tribal mesopotamia or some romantic european or native lifestyle which has nothing to do with the current, real factory farm situation which is perpetuated, or at least goes unquestioned, when we make certain dietary choices. “ And what’s more, if it is OK for you “not to restrain or constrict” yourself then it is Ok for me to rave on about the dishonest way SYDA deals with the issue of vegetarianism and the sorrow I feel when ex-SYDA types feel they have to go back to eating meat just to react against the SYDA system. SYDA is and was no moral or safe place for non-human creatures any more than it was moral and safe for human creatures! Any loving talk about animals in SYDA was just a bunch of egocentric double talk. As someone here pointed out recently, all those dogs around GM were not because she loved them so much (even though she made it look that way) but they were dogs trained to guard and if necessary cause bodily harm. Then there were staff people GM told to buy REAL tortoise-shell glasses frames - not only from animals but endangered ones at that! Just look at the way SYDA uses peacock feathers - where do they thing they came from? I am quite sure that all those feathers that were up on the samadhi shrine walls did not fall out of those penned-in birds naturally!! And I am only just getting started - I know a LOT more horror stories about animals and SYDA than this!! This area of discussion IS all part of the abuses of SYDA that I for one have to sort out for myself as I leave. However, I loved your descriptions of strong women in SYDA, Dissent. Great and true. However, watch out because this “strong woman” just got free!!! Thanks for being here. Violet Subj: hesitatingly Date: 96-06-05 13:16:31 EDT From: Soloflyr11 hrydaya and violet, thank you two for adding your very personal voices to this discussion. i am feeling more and more hesitant to join in on this board cause frankly i'm just not much of a public speaker, deconstructionist, or debater in any form. verbiage is just not my forte. and now howie, i have the added hesitation of not wanting to be called a new ager cause i don't like to use caps. nor do i like exposing my ignorance and simplemindedness if i share what is going on in my not very sophisticated life process. see i am much enjoying my life now and i really don't feel like getting deconstructed, got enough of that living with the guru thank you..... interesting point the god's bring up. if a person is doing better in sy than they were doing before, is it ethical to pop their balloon. i mean if someone is happy based on some false premise, do you want to tell them? well for me that would still have to be a yes. to me truth is of the highest value. it just doesn't seem right to me to not inform someone of what i believe to be the truth at the risk of shaking up their world. doesn't seem right to me to support the denial and lies to protect them. seems far kinder to me to help them see the elephant in their living room so that hopefully they can move on and find a much richer life. i have a cousin who was an alcoholic before siddha yoga. he's afraid if he didn't have siddha yoga that his life would turn back to TOS. for me it seems that he has just substituted one addiction for another, and if i really wish for him to have a healthy and full life i strongly believe the only hope would be to get out. yeah it's a crisis for most of us to leave, but IMO a very healthy crisis, one of reclaiming yourself, and reclaiming the opportunity to grow and enjoy life much more fully. how could i not tell someone and let them remain blissfully ignorant? how can i not encourage them to move forward? when i saw gurumayi in december the phrase that kept coming up for me was "siddha students, graduate!" yet i know it's not so simple. no one could have dragged me out or forced my eyes opened, needed to do it "my way". but just think, if you were stuck in something, but your friends determined that it was doing you good despite the fact that they knew that it was not really an all together "good thing". wouldn't you want them to be honest with you? i would. even if i couldn't hear it..... i vote for honesty, not for protecting someone from the truth because *i* think it would be better for them (sounds kinda patronizing to me, no?)... Subj: hesitatingly-part 2 Date: 96-06-05 13:18:15 EDT From: Soloflyr11 oops, forgot to write "continued"..... so, continued: oh yeah, and one more thing. when i first posted on these boards i used the name ileftsy. i immediately signed back onto aol and trashed that name in a utter fit of paranoia. i was SOOOO afraid of being found out. i have come a looooong way, but at that time i still had quite a hangover of magical thinking and deluded visions of gurumayi's/syda's powers. i do still enjoy my anonymity, but my fears are just realistic ones now ... so at that time i would NEVER have written the following. now i really don't care. not afraid of dry swamps or losing grace or even getting security chasing me down. so here's a story, since some of you like to hear "stories": for a short period i was living in the condos in ganeshpuri because my room in the ashram was needed for other purposes (to make more $, or rupees, what else?). i was also going through a period where i really was wanting to meditate for more than an hour in the mornings (yes i was a freak among the staff). so each evening i would skip the shiva mahimnah and go to bed early so that i could get up very early and meditate for several hours. one such night i was drawn to my window because i heard bloodcurdling screams. what i could see was not that much, but more than enough for me. a large ashram truck was parked at the entrance of the next condo, blocking my view. i could see several ashram managers and security types scurrying around the vehicle and in and out of the entrance to that condo. what was happening was someone was getting beaten up. royally beaten up. sure i didn't see anything, not much of a witness, but i saw more than enough to freak me out and i'm sure it would have freaked them out if they had known i was watching. someone was being beaten up and screaming. the managers et al. were the ones doing the beating. words of accusation were being hurled at the recipient of the beating, general words like "this is what you get" and stuff about this person's son. nothing really made any sense to me, but what did make sense was that "gurumayi's people" were beating someone up. and at the end they were saying things like "better clean up this mess". i was hiding to say the least and i sure never told anyone, i mean who could i tell.... it was very disturbing to me, that in the name of spirituality there could actually be physiscal violence. thus began the beginning of the end for me..... well gang, i am glad you're all there. all of you. with love, solo Subj: random babbling - intellect Date: 96-06-05 13:57:47 EDT From: Shridevi soloflyerji - how could you say you're not much with verbiage. :) if *i* have given anyone the impression that what you say or how you say it is somehow not good enough PALEEZ know that this is not at all how i feel. k? i hope that we can use all different kinds of language and have that be "OK." maybe it was howie's prodding interpretation of my nebulous quote that gave the impression i'm some sort of squinty eyed brain with feet. i'm not. i don't advocate disembodied discourse. and i appreciate everyone's "rooted in real experience" expressions. for me, these ideas are not irrelevant or useless or disembodied. i have always been labeled an intellectual in some derogatory way. especially by shrinks. (now you know what lurks in my heart about shrinks.) one thing that i am happy not to do on this board is apologize for my intellect. greater use of this function does not take away energy from my heart or my belly. it only adds. i think one of the great cult tactics (i heard it from swami durgananda when gm was here at thanksgiving) is the notion that we cannot trust our minds. only our hearts. as if they are incompatible. as if those sentimental oozings are our "hearts." to be able to understand that NOT everything that feels like we've come home is necessarily good, that what we feel is deeply authentic might actually be brainwashing - that requires intellect. that is what intellect is for. as far as i can tell we're all using ours. some of this stuff is pretty subtle and the more i understand the subtleties the freer i seem to be. a cooperative intellect/heart endeavor. one way that i get stuck in myriad mini fascisms is to concretize some idea prematurely, stop it from spreading out into grey areas (the slippage of the text for you howie). Subj: random babbling - "meat" Date: 96-06-05 13:58:10 EDT From: Shridevi Thanks Violet, for picking up on the relevance of the veggie diet thing. it is fascinating to me that process in between denial, chosing to shut out the truth that is being published in magazines or in our face in a myriad of ways . . . and waking up to our own compassion, humanness. and then when we are on the other side of the exit process we are astounded - what keeps our friends from coming to the same conclusions we did. what kept us from coming to them sooner. what IS that! i went through the same waking up all over again with vegetarianism. i just could no longer separate the "meat" from the suffering, the greed, the death, the insanity. and it felt so good to be honest about that. it was just the same thing as no longer being able to separate the "table" from the picture in the meditation hall. no longer being able to separate the pain, arrogance and circus like court dramas from the woman i was bowing down to. and one of the ways that leaving siddha yoga has really affected me is to wake up to the truly bigger fish to fry. as far as i am concerned, relative to the suffering in the world at large, syda is small fish indeed. it is a petri dish for understanding ideology, social indoctrination, fascism and we had better understand these things, as a culture, pretty quick or the damage will be irreversible. Subj: random babbling - my family Date: 96-06-05 13:59:04 EDT From: Shridevi more ramblings. my family is split over siddha yoga. my father is still involved. and he is no exception to having been totally trashed, humiliated, ignored and exploited by the monster. he used to be a center leader but they squeezed him out after i became a political no no. my mother wrote the ashram, after the ann arbor incident where they kicked me out for reasons they concocted (lied about me) and then told me they did it because fatso is a threat to sadhana like they aren't . . . whew. so my mother formally resigned from center leader status. and occasionally my father will take me to church and talk about "judas" in veiled language until i ask him and then he tells me that, basically, i'm evil. (well, that is extreme but it is along those lines.) he read my thesis. he won't read the new yorker article. he still drives 10 hours in a weekend to be ignored by gurumayi. during the month long course he told me his mantra was "i am ****head." (instead of i am shiva) talk about low self esteem. and he just keeps hoping that someday gurumayi will find him to be a good boy and make his existence worthwhile. i used to confront this all the time, telling him siddha yoga was a crock. but he would say - this is just the organization. or i would tell him the truth about what happened to me and he would fly into total rages and smash pictures and then completely forget the incident ever occured. DDNOS. "just the organization" the big relief for me was when i went to the thanksgiving program with a friend of mine who used to be on nityananda's staff and who could tell me, for the first time, all the first hand truth. and we sat there and listened while gurumayi said, in a slow, singsong voice "happy thanksgiving everybody" and "everybody" said back in unison "happy thanksgiving gooroomayee" and he laughed hysterically and the spell was broken. Subj: leftovers Date: 96-06-05 14:01:53 EDT From: Shridevi the picture of gurumayi is gone from the massage school and my friend who still goes there says it hasn't returned. i didn't go to a different school, instead i modeled a sensible human being with feelings and a voice. i wonder if it made a difference. prolly not. well folks - it was nice babbling to your astral cyber selves. shree.Subj: To Soloflyr11 from Howie Date: 96-06-05 14:17:35 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear Soloflyr11, <<>> You have never struck me as pretentious or manipulative, or as someone with a covert message. There is no reason I would call you a new ager, or jump on your language. I have never done so in the past, as you know. As always, wishing you the best. Subj: Howie Christ on the cross Date: 96-06-05 14:19:01 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear AOL readers, Someone just wrote, <<>> This idea has appeared now several times. If I am the target of this sort of talk, I feel grossly mischaracterized. I have no interest in public speaking, deconstruction or debate (I'm more of a generic loudmouth). Zombie jokes are more my forte. Bottom line time: None of us should just sit back if we think a manipulative, covert-message vibe is being laid on us. That's part of shaking off cult-think. Again, I have no interest in public speaking, deconstruction, or debate. I'm not into language games: I don't like them. All I did was walk through a door someone else opened. I didn't strike the first pseudo-intellectual blow, so to speak. I can see through some of these phony-baloney messages like a pane of glass. Am I the only one? If you don't know what is going on in an exchange, don't be too quick to judge. Maneuvering people through language is a giant part of SYDA's trip. People take that manipulative trip with them even after they leave SYDA. That's residual brainwashing. Don't be too quick to dismiss that aspect of cultism as irrelevant to your own experience. I'm not interested in that issue, per se. But I'll respond to it if it's foisted on me. Whoops--just wrecked my vow of silence. I'll start over again! Subj: after thots Date: 96-06-05 16:05:22 EDT From: Soloflyr11 howie, i LOVE your generic loudmouth and all of your humor. just that i am a bit insecure about my verbal/intellectual skills, especially when i read many of you guys who are quite impressive with yours. guess you guys are trying to tell me i'm doing fine. thanx. ;-) and i guess that means you don't mind my using lower case letters.... and shree you know i adore you. if anything i'm only envious of your fine intellect that has in no way usurped the positions of your heart or gut. in fact i think you are a fine example of a balanced integration of the three.... and it sure amazes me the strength you show, especially in dealing with your strange family situation.... continuing to love everything that you care to share... well all, glad you're all there. your friend, solo Subj: Re:random babbling - intellect Date: 96-06-05 17:19:45 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 Shri, I'm glad you are back on the boards even if I am too dense to understand everything you say. One thing you said that I did understand and resonate with was: <> I felt bad awhile back when someone posted that they were disgusted by people using spiritual names on this board. But the name I post here under -- Hrdaya -- is a spiritual name in the best sense of the word. It is not a name given me by GM, but one I chose myself to express what I hope to attain from participation here. Hrdaya is usually translated in SY as the heart (bringing forth images of lacy valentines), but I understand it as heart merged with mind. (Shri, you're the Kashmir Shaivism scholar, am I right in this interpretation?) There is nothing remotely resembling *hrdaya* in the "sentimental oozings" that parade as the experience of the highest truth in ashram programs. A collaboration between the heart and mind is what is missing in SY-think, which says to put your mind in a box and "trust your experience." Thoughtful, heartfelt discourse is, thank God, very present on this board. I guess I react to the heavy-duty interpretive stuff as being too much mind, not enough heart...but I do agree with those who have said that our thinking/linguistic patterns and mannerisms post-SY have to be looked at when they sound to others of us as being empty and platitudy. (I just won't get it half the time, that's all!) Solo, I'm quaking from that chilling story you posted. Thanks for being brave and telling what you know. Jai Us, Hrdaya Subj: The inner Dr. Smith 3/5 Date: 96-06-05 17:46:54 EDT From: Fibonacci8 ( continued from 6/4/96 ) A few years after finishing psychotherapy you read in Newsweek that yoga is good for people with knee problems. Your knee still gives you trouble sometimes, so you sign up for a course at the YMCA. You like it and decide to take a weekend yoga workshop. After two days of postures and breathing exercises, you find yourself in a state of inner calm and expanded awareness. While driving home you feel energized and at peace. For a few minutes there is this hint of quiet exaltation. When you tell your wife about it she says it sounds like how she used to feel after communion. She was religious when she was young, and though she misses it, she has been unable to relate to the Catholic church for many years. As you discuss all these things you both feel like you're missing something in life. As you talk about the possibilities, you feel a little bit of that excitement which has faded from your lives. Your spiritual quest has begun. A month later a new age-type computer programmer at work tells you his guru is coming to the area to give public programs. You always thought "guru" was a four letter word, but you think maybe you'll learn something about yoga and spirituality, so you and your wife go to a program. First you hear some talks; then you chant, and meditate. You feel strange afterwards. The whole thing is a little odd and embarrassing, but you feel this inner openness, and there is excitement in the air. The two of you go to two more programs with the guru during the next few weeks. You find the experience refreshing. It all seems alien, and yet there is this sense of lightness that you feel there. At the end of the last program, the two of you go for darshan. You don't want to bow down to anyone, but you want to get a good look at the guru close up. So you go up to the guru and bow awkwardly. He smiles at you. You get up feeling both foolish and excited. You have a vegetarian meal in the ashram restaurant and go home. Two months earlier you felt like you were drowning in the routine of work and a stable marriage. You and your wife felt something was missing from your lives. Suddenly the exhilaration of adventure has returned. You are at the threshold of the unknown and you feel more alive again. The ashram has invited you to a take a meditation course. You are a little dubious but you take the course. A year later you and your wife have become devotees of the guru. Subj: The inner Dr. Smith 4/5 Date: 96-06-05 17:47:59 EDT From: Fibonacci8 The guru came from a family of Smiths, but he received a new name when he became a Swami. He left home while still in adolescence and lived an exciting life of discovery and apprenticeships. He learned many things about the world and studied the ancient scriptures. He had a gift of personal charisma and collected many followers, even while he continued his apprenticeships with various masters. When he was fifty, his guru died and he declared himself the sole successor, even though his guru was not part of any lineage. He gathered his followers to his new ashram and attracted many more. By the late 1960s many westerners were coming to his ashram. He went on world tours and collected thousands of followers who were looking for direction in life and solutions to their problems. The guru opened ashrams and centers all over the world. He taught spiritual practices and the ancient wisdom of India, and he offered a powerful form of initiation into meditative experience. He assembled all this into a package of devotion to the guru. In India this is normal. It fits into the structure of Hindu culture. In the west, it was totally foreign. Unlike the Indian devotees, the westerners who flocked to this guru were stepping completely outside their culture and embracing something new. These western seekers received the gifts of ancient India. They discovered the inner awareness. They discovered inner lights and other wonders of the soul. They began to heal from the psychic damage caused by the unrelenting materialism of modern life in the west. They were very appreciative of all this, and they told him so. He told them it was his power that made these things possible. He told them that their inner experiences were actually HIM inside them; that he WAS the inner light, that he WAS the inner healing, that he WAS the wonders of the soul, that he WAS the soul itself. This was a very foreign concept for the western seekers; but exciting things had happened to them since coming to the guru, and he was very charismatic. Many of them believed him. Here's where it got interesting. The guru also offered the seekers new identities. Not only could they find some inner treasures and healing, they could become something new. They could became devotees. In India, when people find a guru and becomes devotees, their social and cultural identities remain intact. Becoming a devotee is part of Hindu culture. Indian devotees don't redefine themselves outside their social structures. For the westerners, though, becoming a devotee of this guru meant getting a new identity. He gave them new ways to think and behave. He gave them new Hindu names. And as they became devotees, the westerners became detached from their own culture. This is not the deatchment of inner awareness. The inner detachment doesn't alienate Indian devotees from their families, their communities, or their culture, but that is exactly what was happening to the western devotees. They were getting new identities along with their inner experiences. This was NOT according to the ancient teachings, or even his teachings. But this guru had an agenda that extended far beyond the teachings. He knew that as the western devotees became detached from their social and cultural roots, they would have to reattach themselves to something else. He offered them his cult. This much would have been reasonable for the western seekers: To conclude that the guru was a remarkable man, and to feel grateful to him. The guru, however, wanted something more than gratitude and respect. He wanted THEM. So after giving them some inner gifts he also gave them new identities centered around him. And they bought it. Subj: The inner Dr. Smith 5/5 Date: 96-06-05 17:49:06 EDT From: Fibonacci8 This guru was a Smith. He wasn't a Kneesmith or a Therapysmith, like the other Dr. Smiths. He was a Spiritsmith. He was a powerful man with lots of charisma, and he had great skill. Because of that and because he taught a lot of things that were true, he was very believable. So.... Here you are. Dr. Smith fixed your knee. You don't think your reconstructed knee is the INNER DR. SMITH. You don't worship him. You thanked him and went on with your life. The next Dr. Smith helped you untangle your thoughts and feelings. You don't think he is God. You don't think your good mood and psychological balance are the INNER DR. SMITH. You thanked him and went on with your life. Then the third Dr. Smith comes along and shows you how to find some of the inner treasures. But this Dr. Smith says: "I am God. Worship me. The love you feel in your heart IS ME. The inner awareness you experience IS ME." This is craziness. It is not true. The love in your heart comes from God. Your inner awareness also comes from God. It does not come from the guru. The guru just helped you find it. Yes, the guru helped you, but the good things within you are NOT the inner guru. Even if you had found an ethical guru, your inner love and awareness are not the inner guru. You should give credit where credit is due, but you should not become crazy. Here's where the trap was: Once the western seekers accepted their new identies as devotees, the organizing principle for their experience of the world became the guru's teachings, and his implicit messages. While they were still seekers they could "try out" the guru's ideas, and experiment with the teachings and the practices. They could remain autonomous and experience the world as individuals. Once they "reincarnated" themselves as devotees, however, they were stuck in his world. They HAD to believe that Dr. Smith was in fact all that was good in their own souls; they HAD to believe all his teachings; they HAD to embrace all his implicit messages. To do otherwise would throw them into identitylessness and ideological nakedness. After all they had been through to give up their old identities and become devotees, that was too painful to think about. This is how intelligent, ethical spiritual seekers could become blind to fraud and abuse, and even participate in it. The moral of this story? Don't let someone convince you that the good within your own soul is actually him inside you. It isn't. And if strands of that belief remain in your psyche, remove them. Thank Dr. Smith for the good things he gave you, and be the person that you are. Subj: Patronizing AOLer of the year! Date: 96-06-05 18:26:57 EDT From: Howie Sm WARNING: STRAIGHT-UP CRITICISMS BELOW--THE FAINT OF HEART SHOULD PERHAPS SKIP THIS MESSAGE. Dear AOL readers, Our award-winner says ZOMBIEISM #1 <<>> SOMEONE'S PLAYING GURU WITHOUT A LICENSE! SOMEONE'S COVERTLY DECIDING WHAT'S GOOD AND BAD FOR ANOTHER HUMAN SOUL, WITHOUT PERMISSION. How patronizing. Perhaps you know my inner state. Oh great one, do you think I am ready? NEWSFLASH: If I were trapped in a lie, I would want to know it! --Maybe I'm not psychologically ready to accept that IT'S SPIRITUALLY CORRECT to stand silently by and watch people who are in an exploited, brainwashed state. --Maybe I'm not psychologically ready to accept that it is a HOLY ACT to voyeuristically watch suckers chasing their tails as if it were the Holy Grail, while congratulating myself on my spiritual superiority which allows ME BUT NOT THEM to know the FACTS OF THE MATTER. --Maybe I'm not psychologically ready to accept that I should be patronizing, and say to people (who I have labeled "not ready") one thing while thinking something entirely different--to speak out of both sides of my mouth. --(Maybe someday I will absorb these truths, when I'm psychologically ready.) ZOMBIEISM #2 (a "zombieism" in the context of the entire message) <<>> Translation: one must impose their SYDA-derived spiritual conception on another person, no matter how much it runs against the grain of common-sense ethics. ZOMBIEISM #3 <<>> How do you know that "the fantasy" is holding them together? Who appointed you God, guru, and animal trainer of these inferior specimens of humanity? Don't you have ANY FAITH in human nature? Do you see your fellow (wo)man in such pathetic terms? Is there something that I, Howie, "am not psychologically ready for" that you are holding back from me? Am I pathetically incapable of facing some truth in your eyes? Or do you need more evidence to be sure? Let's say I am "not ready." Then when can I hope to be enlightened? Who decides? Someone other than myself must be in charge of me, clearly, for I am "not ready"--wouldn't that be the case? ZOMBIEISM #4 <<>> Outrage is a component of some people's experience of SYDA. But to attribute the impulse to share information with others simply (and merely) to outrage holds no water as a general statement. Outrage has nothing to do with this simple fact: WITH INFORMATION, PEOPLE CAN MAKE INFORMED DECISIONS. <<>> I'd agree with this part of the statement! By the way, I understand the psychotic solipsism underlying your misshapen take on the "you are what you believe" platitude--and decry it as cuckoo--so you needn't "teach" it to me yet again. (I haven't seen patronizing talk like this since good ol' JamesN26 was on the SYDA boards! Hey James, if you are out there, thinking of you!) I await the expected zombie rebuttal masquerading as a middle-of-the-road, bourgeois, all-embracing benevolence. In recognition of the above-cited statements, and the one in which you claim that SYDA should be suggested to the "needy," I hereby award you the "patronizing AOLer of the year" award. Congratulations! (Thunderous applause, . . .speech! . . . speech! . . . ) Subj: Mind tricks Date: 96-06-05 20:24:36 EDT From: Violet1884 Prompted by Shridevi’s eloquent statement : “it is fascinating to me that process in between denial, choosing to shut out the truth that is being published in magazines or in our face in a myriad of ways . . . and waking up to our own compassion, humanness. and then when we are on the other side of the exit process we are astounded - what keeps our friends from coming to the same conclusions we did. what kept us from coming to them sooner. what IS that! “ This is exactly what the kind of thing I am thinking of when I say that a central component of my contemplation currently is to identify and ERADICATE any old less than useful thought processes that are remnants of SYDA brainwashing that still exist for me. I am working on it! I first heard about abuses in SYDA in 1982/83. How come it took me almost 10 more years before I left??? WOW! If I could hear and read those things and I was able to close my mind and heart to them WHAT OTHER TRUTHS IN MY LIFE HAVE I BEEN ABLE TO CLOSE MY HEART AND MIND TO? That is an important and scary question and one that I intend to pursue to some kind of conclusion. To use Shridevi’s analogy, just as people are able to close their minds and hearts to the abuses of SYDA and go on as if nothing had happened so they are able to close their minds and hearts to the abuses in slaughter houses, factory farms etc etc etc and go on as if there is nothing wrong. These two things are obvious to me. What scares me is the thought that there are many other areas of my own blindness that are not obvious to me - at least at the moment. There is more to the brain washing than this. There are the tendencies to see things as “black and white” - “good or bad”. Never any gray in a SYDA mind and I am aware of a tendency in my thinking that carries a remnant of this. There is the difficulty in acknowledging and speaking about the negative. I remember being tutored for an experience talk once during which I described an experience I had of doubting and questioning my faith in Gurumayi (Wow - too bad I did not listen to myself instead of the tutor!!) Mid-sentence the tutor shouted at me that that was far to negative a thing to say in an experience talk even if it did come to a positive conclusion!!! (Well, beloved tutor - it DID come to a positive conclusion - I am OUT of SYDA now!!) There is that terrible tendency that is noticed most in Mcs but is more pervasive than that - of telling others how they are going to feel before they feel it Agni’s Amrit Dream illustrated this so well. You know “Now we are going to have the opportunity to see a very special video of Gurumayi. When I watched this earlier today, my heart filled with love and the whole world seemed filled with peace and light. You will be esctactic when you see it. So join me in listening to the inspiring words of the Guru.” The stage is set. Everyone knows how they are supposed to react and how they are supposed to feel. Too bad for those who experinece a deviant reaction! (I guess those people find themselves here!) Thanks for being here. Violet Subj: sigh Date: 96-06-05 22:16:43 EDT From: Shridevi fibs - ok. i'm starting to get the hang of what you're saying. don't feel patronized by it. i was thinking the other day about "muktananda the yoga technologist / pedophile / hash addict" and your story of Dr. Smith made me smile. it seems so simple and yet, to have spent 2/3rds of one's life worshipping a foot doctor is something i'de rather repress. hrdaya - you said it beautifully that <> howie - if you ever thing my linguistic patterns are leftover cultspeek will you let me know? is that how i came off to you the other day? for some reason it hurts my feelings that you apologize for being "pseudo-intellectual", clearly to talk to me, and only because you have a reaction to . . . whatever. you are who you are but it pushes some familiar buttons. "i did a bad thing" "i am going to be singled out" only this time i'm not a whore, i'm a pseudo-intellectual. do my references to some other intellectual genre annoy you? are you teasing me? i just want to know. you see - i'm wounded. Violet - yes. the brainwashing thing is always an eye opener. after leaving sy, i got really into politics. all the screwed up lies the government is telling us. the dysfunctional class/race/gender trip that we pretend is invisible. all that. i am allowing myself, these days, to be once again sensitive to suffering. i'm trying to let it affect me appropriately. and sometimes what is appropriate seems to be despair, anguish. all too often. i cried a lot today. i just sat down on the floor at work and let the tears flow. aside from brainwashing, i was really hurt. linguistic bulltos is hard for me to handle. but my wound around it makes me paralyzed, paranoid and very, very sad. i'm sad when i notice that my heart is racing again and my body is gripped by the fear that some other group of people -- you guys-- have got it in for me. "i knew it." "it always happens." "now you think i'm on a head trip." "i will have to try hard to be heard." on and on the train goes down the track. this is my wound. i carry it. i think it is gone and then it has me by the back of the neck. in the ashram my heart was always pounding. never knew who i might run into or what they might say under their breath. in digesting all my syda "karma" i spent years (10 or 12) richocheting (sp?) back and forth between hypervigilance and depression. isolation to comfort myself and the deep shock of how isolated i was. and so today i cried. because if i had just been a voluntarily brainwashed adult, maybe things would be different. maybe i could get mad, experience grief, and get on with my life. i just see that my youth has been totally and utterly swallowed and is almost gone and it feels like it is going to mark my life for ever and for ever. i think it would feel different if it was a random chunk of my adulthood. but my childhood. it hurts. my parents stopped taking pictures of me when we got into siddha yoga. there are hardly any pictures for 15 years of my life. all of a sudden, things just stopped. and now it is all coming out. Subj: blossoming Date: 96-06-05 22:17:38 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear Hrdaya - I hope you can blossom here too, I really do, and you know it. Also, please don't get hung up about those of us who like to play with words and banter and babble - it does have a point, and I'll try to say what it is. I was already fairly passive before syda, but I REALLY learned what passive is there, and now, when I feel I'm being covertly insulted or controlled, I pull out my sword and say "en garde!" I much prefer to be overtly insulted - that is a genuine engagement. But the covert, passive-aggressive stuff is what I go after, because it's part of shaking myself loose from the stuff that caused me to let GM walk all over me. So, I know, it's not everyone's cup of tea, but some of us enjoy it, and you can always just skip it. Best wishes, Diss Subj: alright, ok, you win Date: 96-06-05 22:18:35 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear Violet - OK, you're right. Talk about veggies as much as you wish, I'll do what I advise others to do - tune out if not interested. Sincere Best Wishes, D Subj: sigh two Date: 96-06-05 22:23:16 EDT From: Shridevi continued right now i am, as i have already announced, amidst my saturn return. i feel like this is my chance to make a break for it. to dash out into the sunshine before the door slams shut again. and it has taken me, again, years of questioning and questioning just to figure out WHO I REALLY AM and what am i going to do with my life. folks - i'm not trying to be melodramatic. just real. you see, i don't have thick skin. it is very very thin. very thin. i feel like a goat with a knife tied around its neck and a sign that says "slaughter me for atonement." feel cohesive at my expense. it really really helped me, when i first started leaving, to read this "psuedo-intellectual" stuff. i don't want to apologize for it. i don't. i shouldn't have to. and it is hard because i have a hard time figuring out: am i panicky because i'm having a paranoid, ptsd episode or am i panicky because there IS something in my environment to be wary of. the reason i can't deal with the therapy community right now is that they seemed always too happy to pin it on my "issues" (an easy target) and never ever own a thing about their own cultic behavior. and when i tried to get subtle and explain it to them, they called me an intellectual, which is not feminine and i just about DID need a psychopharmacological intervention! it is easy for me to just roll over and spread my legs. to be absorbed back into the collective by admitting - yes, this is my sin. i bow to your interpretation. this is what siddha yoga was like. yes, i am a sexual deviant at age 14. my desire is bad. i should no better. exclude me alone from all events involving teenage girls. this is my karma. i'm happy to have it worked out. you know the story. i'm sharing this - well, just to share it rather than to keep making sideways comments. i think i'm going to sign off and get a grip. make some dinner. yt, sd Subj: dissent Date: 96-06-05 22:40:19 EDT From: Shridevi rather than ignore the vegetarians, i liked your other idea about bowing to lotus feet. so - this thing about covert versus overt aggression is really important. i think it is so important. overt propaganda is kinda easy to spot. being able to stand up to covert kind, trust that tweaked feeling and ask - are you *&%^ing with me?" . . . so i have a sincere question. i'm still working this one out. so i say: i think you are #$^&*ing with me. and the person says: no i'm certainly not. must be you're projection. ya drshti sa shrsti or whatever. and i say either: yes you are, think about it, seeyalater. or - trying to maintain relatedness - i say: yes, you see, doing xyz is (*&^ing with a person. you see, it's like this and it's like this and then the person thinks i'm wacko. i guess i don't have a question. thanks for your post. Subj: Lots of Howie verbiage 1/4 Date: 96-06-06 01:58:50 EDT From: Howie Sm WARNING--THE FOLLOWING SHOULD BE SKIPPED BY PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE DETAILED, CLOSE DISCUSSION. PART 1 OF 4 Dear Shridevi, I want so much to give a love-bombing emotional response to you! But my self-help pamphlet says I shouldn't. And I was thrown out of sensitivity training by a big, hairy bouncer. So let me try to face the music with the few tools I have. From the way I put my foot in my mouth, it must be obvious to you and everyone that I have no background in therapy, and would make a terrible exit counsellor. I hope that dispels any illusion that I am part of some kind of "therapy" bloc which is trying to take over the AOL board. SEE PART 2 Subj: Lots of Howie verbiage 2/4 Date: 96-06-06 02:01:58 EDT From: Howie Sm WARNING--THE FOLLOWING SHOULD BE SKIPPED BY PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE DETAILED, CLOSE DISCUSSION. PART 2 Dear Shridevi, you say <<>> Should I do this online or offline? I'm into anything, but I don't know if the others are. Despite all the lip service around here, perhaps the public area has become a place where only supportive things are tolerated. That would make me a dinosaur--but, hey, maybe it's my time for the tarpit! For me, the beginning of the end was when the critics were separated from the supporters. In that moment, the primordial soup for a one-sided Earth formed. Let me get specific. You've read me, and seen through me. You know that I use terms like "zombie," and "cultspeak" for those with limited attention spans and reading comprehension, and other forms of cult brain/thought damage. It's a rhetoric of last resort. You have no problem comprehending anything! To call your speech "cultspeak" would be like calling Protagoras a Fuller-brush salesman! I'd never do it, except in a shouty, AFL-CIO banner-sloganish way. <<>> I feel like just saying "no, not at all" and wriggling out of it all, but you would know that would be bullTOS. Then I would be no better than those insane MrMrsGod people who look down their noses at others and then lie. I don't look down at you. I look UP to you. You are a tremendous intellect. Anyway, I guess I have to answer you, even though I'm afraid of causing more injury. In the posts I attacked and this one, you come off to me as having a strong manipulative vibe. You're going to really have to hold my hand to get me through the manipulation issue. You read my responses, and I'm sure understood them well. I'm surprised that you want to reopen the subject since I think I went into it in too much depth already. I thought Bob was right: Dissent is Larry's whipping boy. I'm perfectly happy if people are vegetarian, meditating Shiva-worshippers. That has nothing to do with my observation of (but not objection to) Dissent being Larry's whipping boy. I've kept away from the "Larry thread" for various reasons not relevant here. Still, I can't help but notice these people coming out of the woodwork who are exasperated with Larry treating Dissent like the resident whipping boy. Is Dissent too "uppity" and not playing the victim like he should, and actually getting more attention than others are comfortable with? He sure gets to relive Siddha Yoga around here again and again. Come to think of it, I should be playing the music to the "Flying Siddha Dutchman" before I sign on! (To recent board readers, please understand that attacks on Dissent go way, way back.) Then your post. There was a vague reference to (1) stupid therapetic posturings (Dissent?), (2) a pointed attack on meat-eaters such as Dissent--who was already put through the meat-grinder on that (observation, not objection)--(3) a charge that Larry's humanity was being divested (Dissent again), and (4) a critique of cultish consensuality (Dissent plus who? me?, or Dissent plus Cker? Where is this consensus?) One could see undigested innuendo bobbing around in your post--it begged clarification. I requested it. (NOTE: Folks, I do understand the broad vegetarian point, and am fine with it.) Dissent is quite capable of defending himself. And since I don't think these boards should be moderated, I have no problem with everyone attacking him (or me, or anyone) as a whipping boy. So where am I coming from? I'm pretty obvious. I tend to talk about covert vibes when I see them. You've seen me react to Charlie and Coonhollow, so I'm not telling you anything new. SEE PART 3 Subj: Lots of Howie verbiage 3/4 Date: 96-06-06 02:03:34 EDT From: Howie Sm WARNING--THE FOLLOWING SHOULD BE SKIPPED BY PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE DETAILED, CLOSE DISCUSSION. PART 3 Dear Shridevi, you say <<>> Don't feel hurt on that account! I wasn't talking down to you as if YOU were the pseudo-intellectual! It is I who am the king of pseudo-intellectual dilettantes. I've been one from way back, and am an irritating schoolmarm to boot. (Obviously!) You know what I was doing: I was criticizing your writing as bizarre and opaque, and asking you if there was a covert meaning lurking at the core. I had a little fun with the way I criticized, obviously. A little Siddhaspeak, a little lit-crit, a little Howie the boor--you know. My attempt at style. <<>> I'm enraged that some Siddha jackass somewhere called you a whore. And you now know I am not calling you a pseudo-intellectual (since I want to reserve that honor for myself). So when you put these two unrelated things together, as you have, you come up with something that is light years away from my criticisms of your post. With your intellect, I'm sure you knew PRECISELY what I was saying, so I am puzzled by the fact that my post pushed buttons which are unrelated to its content. Are you fishing for some specific response from me? I can't provide it unless I know what it is. Please let me know. Who is singling you out? Just me, if anyone. Everyone else accepts you unconditionally. That's great! I think I'm one of them, actually--I'm one of your biggest fans! The others seem oblivious to what I am objecting to. So if I am the sole problem, just ignore me. The only other alternative is to put some kind of muzzle on me, or have me go away. I'm not being sarcastic--perhaps it really is just time for me to buzz off. I'd comply with either request without sustaining any emotional injury. (I would probably do a pretty good job of murmuring through a muzzle anyway, but someone would probably not like having one person in the corner with a gag on.) Your problem will really begin if two people criticize you together. What then? And what if three people do? Are you sure you want to be online at all? You might end up being Shridevi Christ, along with Larry Christ, and Howie Christ, and Dissent the whipping boy! I'm going to repeat myself. People can dish it out but they can't take it. You are the one who is most vocal about not muzzling people and not having this become another cult. Without "muzzle laws," we are all sitting ducks. Nuts can come along and take potshots at any of us. If you take a not-too-bad criticism like mine and see it as similar to being called a "whore," what are you going to do if someone really attacks you? These boards may not be where you want to be. I agreed with Larry on his criticism of JJanet (sorry JJanet!). If JJanet gets completely freaked by something like a spiritual name, maybe she shouldn't be too quick to get involved in intense and potentially shocking online discussions, where anything might happen. Who needs to be somewhere that is traumatizing? I hear you loud and clear on your point. If I am in fact just a bothersome nut like Narada, I will go away--and don't worry about that for I will not sustain any emotional injury. Just let me know if the general consensus is that I am a irrelevant nut, and people are just too polite to tell me that to my face. SEE PART 4 Subj: Lots of Howie verbiage 4/4 Date: 96-06-06 02:09:12 EDT From: Howie Sm WARNING--THE FOLLOWING SHOULD BE SKIPPED BY PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE DETAILED, CLOSE DISCUSSION. SEE PART 4 Dear Shridevi, You say <<>> In no way am I annoyed. I'm ready to dive in with my own blizzard of intertextuality and name dropping (not because I'm into debate, etc.) but because I'm into FUN! Let's take an example of Howie (note use of 3rd person!) criticizing your "references." I think your recent allusion to a kind of French-feminist lit-crit belief--that precise language is potentially fascist--to be ghastly, since these message boards are informal and wonderfully imprecise naturally, and involve neither the writing of poetry nor the academic analysis of texts. Further, that statement seems to be a front for an anti-intellectual stance, one which is at odds with your overt championing of intellectual discussion online. Finally, in the wrong hands, it could become another Siddha Yoga "not this, not this" Vedantic window for watery Charlieisms. Who, except for a pompous ass like me, would notice all this? Hey, at least I am reading your posts very carefully! I'm your biggest fan! When I say your comment is ghastly, I am not "annoyed," I am engaged--in a most stimulating way. If you open a door, I'll walk through it. Unless I'm told not to. I'm ready to go from "zero to sixty" on anything anyone opens up. Maybe I should slow down. If you feel wounded by this kind of criticism I will just cease and desist. What confuses me now is, you also ask me to "let you know" what I think of your linguistic patterns. Do you really want to know? So I don't know what to do. You will have to walk me through this one. Again, I can just bug off without feeling hurt or insulted. I just need to be told what to do here. <<>> Who is "you guys"? I'm the only guilty party. I understand that even if it's just one person attacking you, it can recall the experience of being persecuted by a whole social group. Let me just say that you've got tons of unconditional support online. My threat potential is zero. Still, if you want more space, I'll back off. I won't take it wrong either. Hey Shridevi, it's me--Howie--a real person. All I have to give to any discussion is this person. Take my word for it, this fact is more of a trip for me than for any of you! One thing. I am completely steady: everyone can count on me to be reliable, and familiar. Even an orthodox therapist would probably agree that one such person should probably be in any well-rounded "correct" recovery group, despite side eccentricities. With love, with all humor, and with best wishes. Subj: howie Date: 96-06-06 03:25:56 EDT From: Shridevi MESSAGE TO HOWIE THAT MIGHT GET HAIRY Howie: I think you might have misunderstood my last post just by a teensy bit. But basically - right on. First, let me respond to your response to my post. k? I AM SO RELIEVED TO GET AN HONEST ANSWER FROM YOU IT MAKES ME EXHALE AND FEEL HAPPY. (which is not to say i was expecting a dishonest answer - i just am glad to get what i asked for.) big confession: i came in a flailed in reaction to feeling like Larry was getting picked on without taking the bigger picture into account, without even carefully reading the posts for a long time. and indeed! i did that passive flailing thing. i confess. no biggie. i'm human. i get to be p/a every once in a while. all the stuff i said in quotes about feeling paranoid that people were going to turn against me - that was an attempt at showing you my neurotic complexes. these are not rational states of consciousness. i never thought they were. just visceral reactions that won't go away because they have been embedded by a childhood in zombieland. ? to end, it has been very T H E R A P E U T I C K for me to P R O C E S S this here. and again, for future reference and to underline what you and dissent have been saying - i feel no anxiety states when you criticize me frontally. and indeed, the fear (much less the reality) of covert messages goes deep for me. warmly, shrouissance Subj: watch out, more VERBIAGE 1/2 Date: 96-06-06 07:05:59 EDT From: Dissent222 Part 1 of 2 WARNING: MORE STUFF THAT SOME PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT Dear Shri, Howie, and anyone who is still following this without rolling their eyeballs to the back of their heads, either from being totally confounded, or from being the kind of devotee who gets ecstatic from watching paint dry: While I can't respond to it all point by point (mainly because I refuse to print out all these letters and I don't have an idetic memory), I'll make a couple of points. Shri, I got mad at your post way back because it contained innuendo or indirect put downs of me. I like very direct criticism, but indirect put downs make me nuts. With direct criticism, there is actual engagement with actual people - and this is what I'm starved for after 13 years of syda manipulation, deception and psychosis. I know you know what I'm talking about here. Indirect put downs have a way of feeling manipulative and controlling - THAT's what pushes my syda buttons and gives me PTSD. That's what it felt like you were doing. As for therapists, I've been lucky. After being around, being manipulated by, and leaving a variety of cultic therapists, I've found one and a community of others where the folks are quite hip to that stuff, and where it gets openly handled and acknowledged, and where it isn't all just mind games - where it's real. I know the kind of mind-game, schizophrenegenic, undigested, rigid, dishonest therapists you're talking about. They will gladly tell you you're crazy to preserve and defend their desperately-needed illusion of being integrated. Yeah, right, like anyone is "integrated" all the time, especially someone who thinks they are. This is NOT all that therapy amounts to. There's honest, decent people being therapists who would never pretend to be more than human; and there are brilliant, wise and deep therapists around; and then there are a lot of therapists that are just human, not perfect, not without flaws, but with something good to offer. And then there's all the rest of the crazy ones who pretend they're fully integrated or fully analyzed or neutral or objective. As you say, PAHLEEEEZE. That's why I like intersubjectivity and the relational models - people are really struggling with these issues and getting somewhere with them and making therapy better - keeping it alive and fluid. see part 2 Subj: watch out, more verbiage 2/2 Date: 96-06-06 07:06:34 EDT From: Dissent222 part 2 of 2 The hypothetical conversation you scripted, which ends in everyone telling everyone else they were projecting and they're being defensive, is just one of my faviorite type of conversations, it makes me want to pull out all my nostril hairs one by one. People who are secretly hostile and say and do covert hostile things to you, when confronted with this, will always tell you you are projecting, and will call your anger defensiveness. I have now spent over 40 years phumphering around with this kind of mishegoss, particularly rife in syda but not only there, (for example, it's what Larry does to me on this board) and have reached the following conclusions: The other person is paranoid. Period. I'm willing to be emotionally honest, they are not capable of being so. Period, end of discussion, nothing more to be gained from dancing to this paranoid person's tune, I'm outta here. I'm gonna go find some other people who can be honest and who admit it when they're angry or jealous or threatened. Do you know how paranoid Afif and Gurumayi are? They are the ultimate ultimate ultimate paranoids. Shri, when you disappeared a while back, and we stopped talking because you stopped answering my notes and never finished reading something I sent you and gave me a dismissive answer about it, I felt hurt because I admire you, and sad that you had seemingly put me in a category and disposed of me. I tend to take the onus for this sort of thing (which made me perfect ImeldaMayi fodder), but I don't any more. Now, when I think you're being arrogant or contemptuous, or dismissive, I'm going to have to say so, because, otherwise, it's just one more non-relationship, and I'd rather watch paint dry than have any more of those. You seem to need power and control on this board, and you don't need power and control on this board. I don't need power and control on this board, Howie doesn't. I would love you just to say what's on your mind, directly, and get engaged. We can handle it. If you flood me with your fragile vulnerability one minute, and dismiss me with superior contempt the next, I still don't feel like I'm talking to YOU. And there is something so marvelous and appealing about YOU. Actually, most people, when they are being real, are so marvellously appealing. But it is very hard to be real, emotionally honest, and in relationship to another person without feeling the need to control -- possess, seduce, intimidate, merge, distance etc. When I talk about being safe with someone, I mean being able to relate without the fear-driven need for all of the above. GM and Afif are again the ultimate examples I've seen of the fear-driven, paranoid need to control. OK, I'm glad we're talking to each other again. I hope it will continue because I'm sure it can be fruitful. D Subj: To Soloflyr11 Date: 96-06-08 20:03:32 EDT From: Violet1884 Dear Solo: I want to acknowledge your story of a few days ago - the one about the beating up you witnessed in GSP. I have been thinking of that in some kind of stunned silence ever since I read it. Thank you for telling us about that. I absolutely believe your story. It seemed like this was the first time you had told this story to any one and so I imagine it was difficult to tell. If you are anything like me, the telling of a story often makes it more concrete and makes it impossible for me to ever again deny that it happened. So I have been thinking of you since you told that story and wondering if you have been having any “after effects” of having told it. What can one say in response to such a story? It is appalling. What surprises me is that (as far as I know) SYDA has not been sued for events such as this. If one person was beaten up, I am sure others have been also. Why would people not sue the organization for assault? Lack of witnesses perhaps? Fear of worse things happening to them? Why was Baba never sued for rape? Perhaps the Foundation has been sued but has settled out of court and so the information is hushed up. I don’t know. I just would like to see some of this stuff blown open so that it would be harder to cover it up and convince new people that everything is wonderful. Again, thanks for telling your story. Thanks for being here. Violet. Subj: Welcome MaryAnn 1/2 Date: 96-06-08 20:04:57 EDT From: Violet1884 Dear MaryAnn: Welcome to this board. I am pleased to meet you and to read the perspective of another “new person”. It is encouraging to me, that every week or so there is a “new person” on here telling her/his story. It gives me hope and confidence that there are indeed more and more people out there who are seeing the SYDA world in a more direct light and understanding that the spiritual growth we thought we got FROM THERE was and is available to us simply because of our humanness and we can certainly do without the abuse and difficult things that happened to us in SYDA. It is good to read your post. I understand exactly where you are coming from and much of your experience resonates with mine. I want to respond to a couple of things - “before the S.Fallsburg Ashram began looking like a Hollywood Set.” I felt that way also. I especially felt that way when I was in GSP. The change in that place from early to late eighties was amazing. When I was there in the late 80s I thought the facilities and especially the gardens were indeed very beautiful AND they felt like a movie set especially when compared with the environment of the villagers surrounding the ashram. I remember commenting on this to friends at the time. A part of the “movie set” feeling was a feeling of being unreal myself. It was as if I was expecting someone to shout “cut” at any moment and then we could all go back to being ourselves again. Unfortunately no-one ever did! Although, for me, in away I guess I did the shouting. As I have already described on this board in previous posts, I had the experience of a loud inner voice saying that I had had ENOUGH and that I did not need all the abuse and personal attacks that I saw going on around me from the guru. I guess, for me, that was “someone” shouting CUT. “One of the reasons I left was that whenever there would be gatherings on an International scale of world spiritual leaders [ Dali Lama, etc] GuruMayi was never present.” This comment interests me. I have also noticed that GM is never present or included in those kinds of meetings although I have not thought of it for a while. However, over the years, I have noticed that people like Amritanandamayi and the Dali Lama attend these kinds of gatherings but Gurumayi is not there. Interesting question. Does she turn down invitations or is she simply not invited? When I was involved in SYDA the passing thought came and went that she wanted to keep SYDA “pure” and not mix it with other possibly less profound paths. Of course I now know that this is nonsense. It seems that if people do not come to her she does not meet them. I remember an inner circle person telling me once that Joseph Campbell had been invited to come and meet Gurumayi personally many times but that he had refused. The implication of the comment was that he was very foolish not to accept such an invitation - however I think he was more likely very smart! See part 2 Subj: Welcome MaryAnn 2/2 Date: 96-06-08 20:05:53 EDT From: Violet1884 Part 2 “She seemed to exist in her own universe, and a very wealthy one at that. I have to think that there is some sort of clandestine purpose for the tremendous wealth ...where does it go? Certainly not to good works.” This is something I think about also. There do not seem to be very much in the way of “good works” done for communities outside of SYDA (in comparison with what Amritanandamayi seems to do) (By the way I am NOT an Ammachi devotee - I hope I will never again be a devotee of anyone - I have just read some of the literature from Ammachi’s organization.) The PRASAD project seemed like a positive move at the time it was started. However, I have not noticed very much charitable work going on from within it. I have to admit I asked to come off the mailing list from PRASAD some time ago after they so kindly “gave us the opportunity” to give them our checking account numbers so they could take $ out of our accounts directly!! So I do not know what has been done since then but before that time there did not seem to be much going on despite what seemed like major fund raising for it. Once again, welcome MaryAnn. I hope to hear more from you. Thanks for being here. Violet. Subj: Re: MrMrsGod Date: 96-06-06 15:42:06 EDT From: Fibonacci8 MrMrsGod wrote: << There are those who've contacted me/us who say that they have people they love who still need to believe the SY party line, because they were *indeed* transformed for the better because of their faith in the Guru. This, of course, has nothing to do with the facts; it has everything to do with what they *believe* are the facts. These people are not yet psychologically strong enough to have their beliefs exploded before they have something else ready --and better-- to substitute. One must tread carefully and with love. It would, IMO, be a grave disservice to harm a person by destroying the fantasy that holds them together, simply because of righteous outrage on the part of another. >> I think this presumes that after leaving SY the person in question won't be able to find a suitable belief system to embrace which is both healthy and satisfying. Yes? Also, not everyone leaves SY in one big explosion of their belief system. There must be "fifty ways to leave your master"! I think there are plenty of good belief systems out there which are affirming and healthy. There are also many people who share various belief systems, so spiritual community is also available. So many people have left cults and other belief systems which were, in important ways, nourishing for them. Some of these people -- who had no support outside the cult -- never fully left the cult, and they backslid into it. But the people who have support when they leave cults *are* able to find satisfactory identities, relationships, and beliefs as a non-cult individuals. The many cult books are very clear about this point. (There was a good cult book bibliography posted in this folder on 5/21 by Dissent.) I think you might be overestimating the psychological strength necessary to leave a cult and become a happy and healthy individual again. It's a normal thing. Subj: Re:Worried.... Date: 96-06-06 16:49:03 EDT From: Etheria999 I'm reading these boards with interest. I have a very close friend who's into Siddha and insists it's not a cult and that she can walk away from it any time. I'm not into this stuff at all and she use's that as a reason for my skepticism. She tells me she's happy with this spiritual path and that the practices are helping her with her life. All I can see is that she is getting sucked into this more and more, spending more and more time at the ashram, it's all she talks about and the only thing that excites her. She does seva galore and now they're offering her free transportation, room and board for weekends at the S. Fallsberg ashram. She's excited by this and considers it a great opportunity- she thinks GM is fantastic, believes every word that comes out of her mouth. I'm worried about her and wonder if any of you have any advice on how to deal with this. She doesn't have much money so I can't argue they're after her money. As a matter of fact she should be working a part time job to pay her debts instead of doing free work for the ashram but she insists she's benefitting greatlly by doing seva. Is there anyy way to help her see what's really going on here? Subj: Re: MrMrsGod Date: 96-06-06 21:06:39 EDT From: Howie Sm Fibonacci8, I did appreciate your message critiquing the recently posted idea that we "should not tell people experiences and facts about SYDA until these people are emotionally ready." <<>> (Erich Fromm, emphasis mine.) We've got guru wannabes who are probably not inherently sadistic, but did learn that "regulate others' behavior from on-high" stuff somewhere (I wonder where?). Hey you gurus up there in Siddhaloka--what is your judgment on me? Or aren't I psychologically ready to hear it yet? I can handle it! Really! You were told you took something out of context. The only thing you misunderstood is the fact that we're dealing with purebred zombies. Actually, I doubt if you misunderstood this. You are just far more civil than I am. And it is good that you are! I'm glad you grasp the human "context." (It just occurred to me that maybe my response to MrMrsGod was too subtle! Or maybe they aren't "ready" yet.) Subj: Cowardice or Calculating? Date: 96-06-06 22:13:45 EDT From: PERDUCO To y'all, Just yesterday I got a phone call from across the world from a very, very wealthy devotee. I feel like a coward for not simply telling him I don't buy the message anymore. Instead I just listen and try to "understand" (like a psychologist may try to understand someone who feels the CIA is controlling his mind). I don't give away my position--maybe I'm just weak. Well, he was telling me how he was required a time ago to write an essay on what an ashram is before taking some SY coneference etc. He asked me what purpose I thought the submission of the essay as well as pertinent spiritual questions regarding experinces served. I told him, "well, they want to see if your touting the party line..." It just kind of slipped smoothly off my mouth and revealed my position entirely. He laughed heartily and said, "well, with a response like that you reveal a GREAT deal of DOUBT." Well that's life. On second thought, I wasn't necessarily a coward by not telling him what I think but rather I was looking for an "in." Or, looking for a "way" to tell him in the most plausible argument. I never could think of one--maybe because in his life he's so surrounded by "yes" men as a result of his wealth that he has no intellectual avenue for considering substantial critique. Sound familiar? Any suggestions? Thoughts? Caritas, Perduco Subj: Plausible arguments Date: 96-06-06 22:23:44 EDT From: PERDUCO Dear y'all, By the former post I don't mean to imply that I can't think of a plausible argument(s) for not accepting SY. With nearly all of you it is easy because to some degree we are all ruminating on the value or lack of in SY. With devotees, however, we may no doubt defeat many of their viewpoints. We may even win them over to our positions. With my wealthy friend from afar I have a "worthy opponent" in the intellect for he is quite smart in regards to these dialectical questions. It seems he has bought the ultimate deconstructionist position that the intellect can not be of much use in figuring out these issues. Thus he always ultimately counters with the "oh, thats just your ego," or "oh, thats your mind talking..." etc. Dialogue really goes nowhere in these situations--we are reduced to talking solely about experiences leaving the interpretation of these experiences uncritiqued and unexamined. It seems SY has a solid unquestioned metaphysical system but revels in new experiences. Indeed to question the system that interprets the experiences is seen as being caught up in what the system labels a "trap", i.e., the mind or ego. Caritas, Perduco. Subj: Re:Plausible arguments 1/2 Date: 96-06-06 23:44:43 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 Dear PERDUCO, You say <<>> In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with holding back. I would be the last to argue that there is a "general rule" for how to talk to brainwashed SYDA disciples (or to anyone, for that matter). What I do object to in MrMrsGod is their implied notion that some people are incompetents who cannot handle having "power of attorney" with respect to their own lives, and therefore are "not ready" to hear about the allegations, scandal, and horror stories connected with SYDA and its tinkertoy thought-system. The question is: who deems these people incompetent, and who gets their power of attorney? To hold back for a reason as trivial as "I'm tired and don't want to get into it right now" makes perfect sense to me. I hold back all the time, for example, on this message board. SEE PART 2 Subj: Re:Plausible arguments 2/2 Date: 96-06-06 23:44:52 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 Dear Perduco, You say <<>> I sometimes feel helpless talking to my SYDA friends, particularly when they report an incident of SYDA sadism and interpret it as a divine teaching they are grateful for. If you just come out and tell brainwashed friends what you think of SYDA, you might find them growing MORE interested in you. I've had this experience. They vicariously enjoy hearing you criticize SYDA things that they too don't like (but cannot admit openly). They might smile, and even laugh, and look at you lovingly (I think they are trying to force their shakti into your pores in those "love" moments). SYDA disciples also enjoy looking down at you, and seeing you as "a test from the guru" that they can easily pass. They see interacting with nonbelievers as a spiritual exercise. What happens here is, in their mind they are enjoying the process of feeling the "doubts" you raise go through their mind control "filter." (It makes little clicking sounds.) It feeds their grandiosity and sense of Vedantic control-freakitude to face "the enemy" and remain "equipoised" (to use boss-lady's terminology). The problem is, the reality of their cult experience will eventually sink in, and then they will remember you--a person they can talk with about "doubts." Then suddenly you will see their real personality emerging from the cuckoo smiling cult-pseudopersonality. I've seen this on more than one occasion. You say <<>> Agreed. Argumentation with a SYDA zombie is useless, generally speaking. That is not to say that language is of no use. Dealing with zombies is a communication genre all to itself. My friendships with SYDA people survive because we usually have relationships based on elements from their pre-cult identity. Since this is the case, I can be there for them when they drop their cult personality. That is important, for when they drop their cult personality, often the SYDA-zombies "drop them." Then it's just the aspiritual people like "avadhut Howie" who stick with them. When they finally realize they are suckers, that's exactly when they are going to want a real friend. I must admit that it takes patience to hang in there with a friendship with a cult member. It's tough. You say <<>> What I can never shake is that feeling of helplessness that comes when I listen to one of my brainwashed friends. Underneath those SYDA-stooge exteriors are good people. The fact that people are lining up for zombification is a sad testimony to the state of our society. I will never accept that zombification is a desirable state. To accept such a horrible thing would be equivalent to devaluing human existence, would be equivalent to embracing a negative view of human nature--would be equivalent to abandoning friends. Subj: me again 1/2 Date: 96-06-08 00:21:42 EDT From: Shridevi CONTINUING THE CONVERSATION plus THINKING ABOUT PRE-CULT PERSONALITIES (feel free to ignore) Dear Dissent I want to go on with this, to unravel more of what is left to unravel. I'm taking seriously your last statement that you "hope it will continue" but confused, somewhat, about how to mesh it with the stuff about eyes rolling and verbiage. I understand that you didn't want to take the time to download all these letters and that you wrote from memory (I take it you download other things for careful readings). This doesn't jive altogether with an invitation to continue. Let me know. Your honesty is appreciated, as well as, at times, difficult. I am going to try to take in what feels right and clear and also not take in what feels overstated, global, general or whatever. What seems global is the comment that "i seem to need power and control on this board." How long have you felt this way? Do you experience these dynamics of merging, distancing, etc. from me from the beginning? Seems like you had some feelings about how I chose to get some distance, step back. If, at that time, you felt I was arrogant and dismissive, why didn't you say anything? are you not withholding from me like the way you feel i am withholding from you? i wonder now - are there are maybe other things that you are saving to tell me later or maybe not at all? I don't need control on this board. I'm just going with what is up for me, like everybody else. see part twoSubj: me again 2/2 Date: 96-06-08 00:25:24 EDT From: Shridevi CONTINUING THE CONVERSATION plus THINKING ABOUT PRE-CULT PERSONALITIES (feel free to ignore) continued i did read what you sent me. though not in time for feedback before the final draft . . . but i did read it. and that is a big deal for me. if you got to know me you would know that i am very slow to get back to people. it is not passive aggressive. it is just my rhythm. and, by the way, it was very important for me to read what you wrote, as i think i told you. (more on this in a bit) i understand what you are saying about being contemptuous and then being overly vulnerable. especially when seen as a pair, they fit the "manipulative" label. perhaps while i was feeling so reactive i just should have steered clear of the boards . . . not acted on my complexes. but, now that i have, i'm forced to learn something about what and why those complexes are. this is the way i learn. to just let it hang out and see what happens rather than to clean it up so i seem integrated. and learning i am - thank you for your energy. in addition to all this, there is a part of me that reacts to your comments as follows: "there is some appropriate, middle of the road way to communicate and if i do communicate that way, i will get a bill of health." (more later) so now there is this conversation going on about friends who still have "pre-cult" personalities. this really is interesting to me. actually interesting is not strong enough of a word. i sit here and cry when i read about it. i'm really scared that i don't have a pre-cult, adult personality. i have to go back to being 10 years old to pick up where i left off. i'm not saying this for shock value. this is something i really need to be able to talk about. and it has left me profoundly vulnerable and, yes, in many ways fragile. so please don't make the interpretation that i am being controlling or manipulative if i meet this conversation where it touches me deeply, emotionally. this is a mixed message. what touches me, in different ways at different times, and what struck me about what you wrote, is a sense of hopefulness. that people can get on with their lives. the mix of siddha yoga followed immediately by (mediocre) therapy culture gave me a big fear that i would end up with a diagnosis. axis two. i worry (sometimes very seriously) that there is not a lot of hope for me. that my sexuality is permanently (word i can't use.) (no pun intended but i didn't get to use the word, anyway.) that i have a paranoid core. or, at the very least, that i have to go back so far in my development that i have to learn things like "how to trust people and make friends." and this is depressing. i need to be able to talk about what is important for me. the "verbiage" that helps me to unravel those little knots that just don't respond to macro interpretation, the subtle contradictions in what you say that trigger my issues, the deep emotional despair i feel when i face the music. i look forward to having these words/exchanges serve to make more *real* my appreciation for you, make more real my sense of safety here. no platitudes and sincerely, shree. Subj: To Shridevi from Howie Date: 96-06-08 07:28:37 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear Shridevi, I've been troubled by the realization that I may have started this idea that someone thinks you are a pseudo-intellectual, or that you writing is mere verbiage. I do not think you are a pseudo-intellectual. I will write that on the blackboard a thousand times, and probably should, because I am an dunce to have introduced the word "pseudo-intellectual" within a thousand miles of you. That word should never be mentioned near you; that word is miles away from you. You are a special person, with an extraordinary intellect--among other wonderful qualities. I read your messages critically and analytically, with all of my mind--so to speak. And when moved to, I respond critically and analytically. I am not doing so because I'm into argument or debate. I'm doing so because mental nourishment is part of my personal view of spirituality. You can always count on one person--me--to be on the ball enough to read whatever you post, even if it is in Latin and ninety pages long. I'll do the best I can to understand what you are saying. If people can't keep up with your intellectual creativity, too bad for them. But please don't penalize me because such people exist. I respect, enjoy, and NEED all of your mind when it comes to discussing SY on these message boards. Intellectually speaking, if these AOL message boards descend to the lowest common denominator because people who can actually think leave in exasperation, this will really become a "Siddha Yoga Online." I here extend to you my full apologies for inadvertently implying you are a pseudo-intellectual. Give all of our minds something other than Naradas and Coonhollows and MrMrsGods to regard--I beg of you. Subj: MrMrsGod, take responsibility Date: 96-06-08 08:16:35 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear MrMrsGod, You argue that some people should not be told "the facts" about Siddha Yoga because they are not "psychologically strong enough." (In the preceding, your exact words are shown in quotation marks.) You claim I have added ideas to your message. In my response, I used hyperbole to bring into relief the patronizing inner sense of your message's outer benevolent surface. Mine is a standard exegetical device. I have not added anything to your message, as you claim. Just look at what you say here: <<>> Please be aware there are people online here who grasp what I and Fibonacci are saying, so dismissive responses as you are posting just aren't cutting it. I recommend that you address the issues, unless your aim is to slide yet further into lame duck status in this discussion. Don't you see how inadequate your following response is? <<>> Fibonacci has considered the entire post carefully and written a rather lengthy response. As far as anyone can tell, he understands your post. Why don't you enlighten us all as to what the context is, that you claim he has not grasped? Are you capable of it? Or are you used to people just blithely agreeing with what you say, so the notion of actually taking responsibility for your statements is an alien experience for you? You are arguing that information about SYDA be withheld from certain people. This is not an altogether innocent statement, given that SYDA is viewed by some to be a destructive cult. I think you should take responsibility for your statements. Begin by telling us what Fibonacci has taken out of context. Can you at least do that? Again I ask you: Who determines whether someone is "psychologically strong enough" to hear "the facts" about Siddha Yoga? Subj: Another ex Date: 96-06-08 13:12:03 EDT From: MARYANN3 I have just finished reading all of the archived posts and new posts non-stop. I have also read the NYer Article and Co-Evolution Quarterly article. My thanks to CKer, Violet, Howie, Agni, etc. Your comments gave voice to my own feelings as well. I was very involved with Siddha Yoga a number of years ago [ right after the brother made his famous forced exit] and before the S.Fallsburg Ashram began looking like a Hollywood Set. I was not a hardcore devotee but was brought into the Ashram by someone who was. At the beginning my senses were overwhelmed and I fell hook , line, and sinker. Also being a Lesbian gazing at G.M. or mooning over Meg Christian tapes also helped.Yet I also "worked" on my spiritual path as best I could. As I look back I was spiritually naive and retreating from a Christian background which was much less exotic and interesting. I mistook real spirituality for cult personality worship, chanting highs, Intensive "awakenings" and addiction to the atmosphere of the Ashram. A Spiritual Awakening by a pat on the head by GuruMayi's feathers? Yea, sure! Yet I wore the rud.beaded bracetlet which SHE had fondled briefly during Darshan, and read great significance in whether she glanced at me or not. I also bought into the current Denial at the time which was: GM is a TRUE spiritual BEING. She is not responsible for the negative stuff that goes on. Its her inner circle who is to blame. She really does not know whats going on [ being so spiritual and all]. Yet I felt disturbed by the "spying" that went on and disturbed by an uneasy feeling. I continued at the ashram and at the center in N.Y. for two more years, subscribed to the newsletter, etc. I never could shake the feeling of distrust. I left the practice but continued to feel very conflicted. I felt I was leaving a strong power which I distrusted but which I craved. It has left me in the years since looking at myself and at what about me caused me to be drawn in to what they were selling. One of the reasons I left was that whenever there would be gatherings on an International scale of world spiritual leaders [ Dali Lama, etc] GuruMayi was never present . She seemed to exist in her own universe, and a very wealthy one at that. I have to think that there is some sort of clandistine purpose for the tremendous wealth ...where does it go? Certainly not to good works. I hope sometime someone on the inside writes a blockbuster book. One recent post mentioned old stories about Sheik Narudun [spelling? I remember one of her Sheik stories regarding wealth ...the moral being " How much land does a man need?" Good question. I also remember being present on some Sunday nights [ this was before massive crowds] when after the Evening Program, GM would make us feel like "family." This is why my most precise definition of the Ashram is one big Dysfunction family. For this reason, The New Yorker article rolled off the backs of many devotees because feeling like a family member , they also felt attacked and defensive. Anyway, this list has helped me come to terms with my past and with my past relationship , though not as lengthy as some of you , with the Ashram. I feel more connection with this group than I ever felt around those horrible Devotees. I am 50 years old. I feel fortunate to have known a few real spiritual people. When you see the real thing it makes the contrast dramatic. Thank you everyone Subj: Re:MrMrsGod, take responsibili Date: 96-06-08 15:30:53 EDT From: MrMrs God You have an agenda, Howie: you love to argue. We don't need this. You can say what you wish, please do have the last word. Your diatribe feels like a personal attack, and we withdraw. Goodbye. Subj: bhairavi Date: 96-06-08 20:14:30 EDT From: Soloflyr11 dear dissent and anyone else that this may pertain to, there's something that keeps bothering me enough to inspire me to try to communicate with you. you do know i like you, right? well, it's this thing about throwing everything out. somehow i've gotten the impression that you advocate chucking practices and philosophies etc because of the association with siddha yoga or that you think there's no value to any of it. i guess i understand from the perspective of needing to break free from all the brainwashing that it might be a good idea to step away from things, get some detachment, like a purifying fast. but i rather believe that there is some value to much of what i learned. after stepping back from everything, i try different things and *decide for myself* if i want to keep them in my life. to make it simple and concrete and maybe exteme for example, i like om. i'm not about to throw out chanting om if i want to because it was associated with siddha yoga. i like rudraksha beads. i took them off for a few years but now feel like wearing them. things like that, and much more.... i do admit, that i have distanced myself from things for a while and *then* began to slowly decide what i wanted to "try on". so do you disagree? gosh i dread getting into a debate, you know i feel rather insecure in these areas, but i am also learning to communicate and be honest and direct because i value that very highly for untold reasons. so, in the name of communication... sincerely, solo p.s. this post was inspired by a friend of mine who just called me and started reading to me from a book called Tantric Yoga and The Wisdom Goddess by Dr. David Frawley. it was just thrilling for me to listen to, i loved it. i do not intend to throw out all of eastern mysticism (or whatever you want to call it) just because i am vehemently throwing out siddha yoga. ; ) Subj: time Date: 96-06-08 20:52:09 EDT From: Soloflyr11 hi violet well first of all it freaks me out to put *any* post on this board. it is a great challenge for me to overcome such personal barriers in my ongoing march toward wholeness and freedom so i welcome this opportunity for growth though i must admit it ain't always easy..... as for the story. well i have had some practice. i've told it to several people over the years. i think the first few times i did feel rather haunted afterwards, a paranoid fear of retaliation or like i'd done something bad or wrong. but time oh time really has made a difference. and practice. after saying things more than a few times and allowing time alone to do it's healing i am becoming less and less afraid to speak out. someone once said to me when i first left gurumayi to give it time. he said to me that i didn't need to resolve it all right away, that it would resolve over time. (i may have said this before, but i just have the urge to repeat it). from that i have taken that i do not have to drive myself to figure it all out and that over time much healing will take place, unrealistic fears will fade, perspectives will change, much will get clearer and clearer etc etc.... here's a funny aside... well maybe not funny. after i wrote my first letter in the name ileftsy someone wrote me and asked for specifics about my comment on violence. so i wrote the person. that time it was scary. but i went for it, i told the story. and then i get back a reply, a nice one, but one that informs me that he is a devotee. well imagine my surprise and the freak out i did go through. all i could do after freaking out was to say, swaha (yes i do like that word and concept). bet i got a lot of purification of my fear from that episode. ; ) with less and less hesitation, solo Subj: MrMrsGod (1 of 3) Date: 96-06-08 22:01:21 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 1 OF 3 Dear AOL readers, In my view, the recent exchange with MrMrsGod is among the most revealing discussions seen online recently, and is far from being a mere flame war--as they would have us believe. I think the exchange reveals something significant about the dynamics of destructive cults and mind control. Let me try to explain in not too many words. MrMrsGod's main point has been that negative information about a cult should be withheld from "weak" people. Just as new people entering the Moonies "aren't ready" to be told that Moon is the Messiah, weak people in SYDA "aren't ready" to learn that Gurumayi is not the Messiah, and "aren't ready" to learn that SYDA is a very troubled route which has little to do with ultimate spiritual liberation. This sort of argument is heard a lot in and around cults. In other words, people like MrMrsGod are arguing for "boundary control," that is, control of the movement of information in and out of cult groups. Different versions of the truth exist for people at different levels: an outsider hears something different than a novice, who hears something different than the spiritually "weak," who hears something different than the spiritually "strong," who hears something different than the "inner circle." This is a lynchpin argument for cults, and merits close attention. There are many present and ex-cultists who believe in this policy of withholding information. This is not an innocent belief. In part, it is thanks to this belief that "seekers" don't know what is going on and become sucked into dangerous cults. In fact the policy of withholding information is a key ingredient in cult mind control. We should not allow MrMrsGod's "boundary control" arguments to be presented unchallenged. My criticism of MrMrsGod is not personal: it a criticism of a disturbed pattern of thinking seen in a broad cross-section of present and former cult members. It is important to note that many people who talk like MrMrsGod are not aware that they are cult accomplices, even though they are, in effect. So I would characterize their state as brainwashed. When they are presented with challenges, they shrug them off as insubstantial. We saw this in the way MrMrsGod attempted to shrug off, for example, Fibonacci8's careful reading and critique of their position. When will the supposedly weak-minded cult members be ready to learn the reality of SYDA? Who decides when they will be ready? MrMrsGod will not respond to these questions for they cannot. It would seem they only know enough to deliver their disturbed message and then to withdraw. This inability to interact in a discussion, except to present a programmed "message" and benevolent-sounding insubstantial dismissals, is a fingerprint of brainwashing. Frankly, it strikes me as disturbingly robotic. Who knows how to pierce the exoskeleton of brainwashing? Who knows? But that is not the point. The point isn't to convince people like MrMrsGod of anything. Arguing with the brainwashed is a fool's game. The point is, we should not sit back and let that kind of propaganda get spread about without lodging a protest in the strongest possible terms. In the case of SYDA, people should not be protected "for their own good" from the facts. Someone who says this should be called on it. Regardless of how benevolent the exterior of cult messengers appear to be, the message is NOT INNOCENT. Falling for benevolent appearances is, of course, the basis of cult dynamics. Recognizing and exposing the disturbed reality under benevolent appearances is what people with healthy identities do. There is nothing "wrong" with doing this. (I'll explain why this bears mentioning in later posts.) SEE PARTS 2 AND 3 (to be posted later) Subj: Welcome, MaryAnn! Meet Pat! Date: 96-06-09 00:25:05 EDT From: Cker Welcome aboard, MaryAnn! It sounds like you've taken the route many of us have, from devotee to doubter to lurker to "member of the board." The sometimes deceptively simple (and sometimes not!) understanding and awareness that flowers on this board is a treasure and a daily treat. Be careful! You may become delightfully "attached"! Spending time here, I've come to value "understanding" and "awareness" much differently from the way I did when I was in SY. I never really thought much about those words before that. Now, it seems, they've emerged from the vocabulary of tutored experience talks as heralds of personal growth, leading edges of interesting changes, and a much broader, deeper, truer "transformation." I am indebted to each and every one of you for this gift. A devotee today asked me, very sincerely, "Was all this going on before the New Yorker article? Are you going to try anything different? Do you still consider Gurumayi to be your guru? How do you *feel* about all this?" As I answered her questions, I realized that, at bottom, my leaving SY is not just about the organization or the guru or any of the things people have told me about. It's as much a statement about *me*, about what I understand to be the truth *inside*, and how I live that truth. What I had come to *know* about the world of SY had reached a critical mass that was incompatible with what I had been *taught to believe* was true. I think they call it "cognitive dissonance"? Yeah - in *spades*. Today, I could answer that devotee’s questions enthusiastically, without defensiveness or compulsion to convince, something that all my explanations and exhortations about SY to my friends and family and coworkers lacked for years. That return to personal honesty is really exciting to me! All my life, truth has been a powerful force, a focus and an ideal that I was acutely aware of, and one that has shaped and reshaped many relationships with my family and friends. Ironically, the name Gurumayi gave me in 1984 (choosing the card herself instead of just approving the next one on the stack of cards kept at the ready by a darshan girl) is "Satya." It was a primary vehicle of contemplation that led me to leave SY. So, as I write this, I ask myself, "What’s the point of hiding behind this not-so-clever screen name?" Forsaking anonymity, for me, seems like the truest statement I can make right now, putting my real self behind what I’ve written. (Actually, this is just the most esoteric reason. Checking my e-mail under two screen names is such a pain - cumbersome, inconvenient, expensive, silly, and probably not very wise in the long run - kind of like having an affair or dyeing my hair, neither of which have ever made any sense to me for the same reasons!) If they believe what they say they do, how could anyone in SY be threatened by what they must surely see as my "unfortunate delusion," my fall from grace? And, if they *don't* believe their own line - well, I guess they're in more danger than I! So, from now on, folks, "Cker" will be posting from the even-less-clever screen name that all my *other* cyberfriends know me by - "PattyV1953." (Yeah, I know, it’s dumb. Please, just don’t call me "Patty" unless you knew me before junior high school or feel like you have!) (Resisting the urge to cry "SWAHA!"), now I'm just Pat Subj: Re:bhairavi Date: 96-06-09 01:29:24 EDT From: PattyV1953 Dear Solo, Thanks for bringing up the issue of what to do with stuff and why for a second look. I do agree with what you say about stepping back and keeping SY things that seem worthwhile or of interest or sentimental value. The things I got rid of were all but a very few specifically SY pictures, books, tapes, jewelry, etc., much of which was purchased out of compulsion and a wish to "reawaken my faith." (Needless to say, faith cannot be purchased. I learned that the hard way.) I considered this issue of whether there was something worthwhile in the things I gave away, but what these things had in common were things like statements about the lineage (found at the front or on the cover of every SYDA book and magazine) and the teachings very particular that path. Understanding what I do now of Baba and Gurumayi, their words seem hypocritical or hollow, and I couldn't see myself looking to them for guidance. Also, I did not want someone in my home (like my stepchildren or their friends) to get this stuff from my personal library and perhaps get involved in SY, and the recordings had become impossible to listen to without associating them with a SY dialectic. The person who has these things now treasures them, and she would never have had the money to purchase it all from SYDA. So, I saved her a lot of money (that she may decide she was happy she never spent someday), and bit into this summer's bookstore take a little. I did not want to "trash" these things just because they no longer had the same meaning for me. I did keep some things that have great meaning for me. The rudraksha mala my husband gave me for my 40th birthday, an amber mala that is just beautiful. Like you, I may decide to wear the rudraksha or use either of them for prayer or mantra repetition or just because they feel good to hold. I also kept my little statues of Krishna, Shiva, Kuan Yin, and Ganesh - which for me are symbols of devotion, steadiness, compassion, and perseverance in the face of obstacles. They join the Infant of Prague that my grandmother gave me for my First Holy Communion at age 6 (which I kept on my school desk until high school for inspiration, grace, and good luck during exams). I've always had a place for images of the divine in my home. That will never change. The scriptures - the Ramayana, the Mahabharata, the Shrimad Bhagavatam - I discovered them through SY, but their timeless wisdom will always have a place in my heart and home. I also discovered Sanskrit in SY. A recent article in Yoga Journal on Vyaas Houston's method of teaching it at the American Sanskrit Institute gave me the inspiration to begin studying the language more seriously. Over the last few months, when I was still going to programs, this new appreciation of the energy qualities of the Sanskrit alphabet transformed the experience of chanting, taking it beyond the context of SY alone. Chucking it all into a dumpster didn't seem to be the best way for me to discard things that had had a lot of meaning for me for so many years. That I left SY for ethical reasons in no way diminishes the more universal lessons I learned there and will carry for the rest of my life. Yours, Pat Subj: Re:MrMrsGod's Departure Date: 96-06-09 01:42:37 EDT From: PattyV1953 Howie points out, <> My own withdrawal from one of the old boards some time ago was under the exact same circumstances, so I have to laugh. I was rendered absolutely speechless by an "exoskeletal piercing" (YIKES!) for which I was totally unprepared. The truth of it was undeniable. Perhaps the God and Goddess withdraw now, but they (and many other lurkers, I'm sure) will not be able to ignore what they've learned here. It will stay with them until they're ... ready to hear. Sometimes, it doesn't take long. Take my word for it! Pat Subj: Re:Welcome MaryAnn 2/2 Date: 96-06-09 07:50:57 EDT From: MARYANN3 Thanks for the welcome. When I left it was because something within me was pushing me out...I could not justify or disregard the many troubling things. However many friends whose judgement I respected were still involved. It made me question my inner truth about my decision. Was I running from spirituality? Should I go deeper into the practice instead of leaving? There was no forum like this to process my gut feelings on. At that time all the press was positive. But thank goodness I trusted my own judgement. When you are involved at any depth with SY, it becomes your world and you perceive it as reality and the outside world as unreality. It is a very strong pull. I have a viedo tape of a long chant. It has the effect of a drug on me and is a strong mood changer. I , of course, do not look at it anymore but keep it as a reminder of what a highly charismatic person with power can do. However the old adage, Power Corrupts, is certainly true. Subj: getting rid of stuff Date: 96-06-09 08:02:04 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear solo and Pat - Welcome, first, to PAT, formerly CKer. Wish I could drop my anon., I'd be able to say a lot more, but I have reasons and I have to keep it. The throwing out issue. I appreciate (not just saying that in a cliche way) what you both have to say about this. I threw it all out in the dumpster because that's what I needed to do, given the extent to which I had allowed myself to be battered and abused by Gurumayi. Maybe I got more of that direct battering and abuse, straight from her, than others did. Maybe I saw sadism and cruelty from her that others have not. But for me, throwing it all out was exactly what I needed, and I don't regret it at all. I threw out one of Baba's hats she gave me, and lots of letters from her, a couple with her own handwriting, I threw out everything because it had all meant masochistic enslavement to her, the degradation and denigration of my own self, the idolization of her - who I now know to be a sick, wretched person who has cruelly hurt and even destroyed many people - not just devotees, but their families, too. You have memories you cherish, but I don't. What I do have now is a life worth living, because no other human being will ever be my master. I have teachers, because I have a lot I want to learn, but I have no masters and will never, I hope, let anyone make me their slave again. Now, as for my current spiritual status - do I really need to defend this or prove myself here? I don't think so. If you picture me as a godless, meat-eating pagan heathen primitive, a dangerous agent of chaos and anarchy and disintegration (I'm exaggerating), I don't know where you're getting that picture from. It ain't me. But I'll say one thing: I strongly believe that human RELATIONSHIP is the key to spirituality. The capacity to engage with others on complex, multiple levels, to be engaged in relationships in which each one supports and stimulates the other to greater truth, creativity, depth, trust, love - this is much much more important to me than chanting and meditating, japa, etc. I never particularly liked doing those things, anyway, really not very much at all. I mostly hated it. I was never so good at relationship, either, although it's what I longed for. Now's my chance, I don't have that much time left. The time I used to spend doing all these so-called spiritual things - what did it get me? Locked into navel-gazing dead-end isolation and enslavement in syda. Now I do things I like doing, not what I fear I must do in order to see 10 billion lights go off in my sahasrar and avoid being reborn in a waterless region. Please don't throw out what has meaning and value to you. For me, I have filled my world with people and things I love and gotten rid of a lot of stuff I don't want or need. Subj: Re:Welcome, MaryAnn! Meet P Date: 96-06-09 08:03:31 EDT From: MARYANN3 Hi Pat. Meet Anne. [MaryAnn] is a combination screen name for me and my sig. other. I, too, believe the God does dwell within but as I understand that truth to be. Since leaving SY I practice Zen Meditation. Much more bare bones and I am not focused on any spiritual leader. In Zen Meditation, if you see flashing lights, images, etc. GuruMayi is not unlike Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker except for the exotic appeal and sophisticated marketing aimed at a different segment of the population. Spirituality cannot be bought nor is as easily attained as they make it sound. I sometimes wonder what if. What if GuruMayi was Genuine. If their billion dollars was put to use and not hoarded. Why do they charge so much, sell so many expensive items, cater to the rich and famous. What a powerful force she could have been had she been a true spiritual leader. Subj: MrMrsGod (2 of 3) Date: 96-06-09 08:40:44 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 2 OF 3 Dear AOL readers, The MrMrsGod exchange has many significant points of interest. Below I talk about the cult tactic of TRANSFERRING GUILT. People like MrMrs God want to transfer responsibility for the wrongdoings of a religion to the people who speak out about those wrongdoings. This laying of a guilt trip on people to silence them is a cult tactic, and should be protested in the strongest possible terms wherever it is seen. ------------ MrMrsGod say <<>> They want us to believe that SPEAKING OUT CAUSES DAMAGE. The underlying crazy reasoning is, SYDA's alleged wrongdoings should not be openly talked about. People who let these bad things "get out" are hurting innocent people because hearing about bad things is disturbing. The guilt for damaging people is being placed on THOSE WHO SPEAK OUT. The argument goes: "bad things don't cause damage; not participating in the cover-up is what causes damage." This disturbed argument protects the unethical colossus, not the individuals being victimized by the colossus. The reality is, if SYDA had nothing to hide, speaking out would not have the capacity to disturb anyone. If the information is disturbing, don't blame the messenger! Shouldn't people be given ALL THE information and be allowed to decide what they want for themselves? ------------ MrMrsGod say <<>> This is a standard cult discrediting tactic that many have spoken about already: here, people who criticize the cult are discredited by being labeled emotionally disturbed and irrational. In this statement, they imply that those who speak out against SYDA are ACTING OUT EMOTIONS THAT ARE NOT UNDER CONTROL and in doing so ARE INJURING PEOPLE. They are asking SYDA critics TO CONTROL THEMSELVES. They are implying, again, that those who criticize SYDA are the "guilty party." They are guilty because they are defective, they are acting out uncontrolled anger, they are unable to control their emotions, they are unable to rationally see that the wise and humane course of action is to allow people to hold onto "THE FANTASY THAT HOLDS THEM TOGETHER." The reality is, people are just talking online here, with plural voices. There is some pain and rage. But there also is some humor and reflection, some scientific dissection of arguments. There are people celebrating their regained humanity here. There is love, support. There is irrelevant babbling (like this message, maybe!). There is a range of expression here. To say that everything critics say stems from the emotions of "pain," and "rage" is a transparent rationalization, that devalues the expressions of many, many sincere people. What a lame way to discredit the feelings and thoughts of an entire population! Yet it is a common way to discredit people. The core SYDA concept underlying this put-down is: "You are projecting your negativities--you are spiritually defective." SEE PART 3 Subj: MrMrsGod (3 of 3) Date: 96-06-09 08:42:04 EDT From: Howie Sm PART 3 Dear AOL readers, MrMrsGod say <<>> The tactic here--again a standard one in cults--is to ascribe to a disorganized group of individuals, who happen to be discussing a cult in a random and wide-ranging way, A POLITICAL AGENDA and RELIGIOUS ZEAL. Through this doublethink, the victims become the aggressors. The implication is, a couple of people talking on AOL are somehow a cohesive anti-cult "strike team." The multimillion dollar cult, with its propaganda budget and security team, bugging devices and international banking activities, is nonetheless a HELPLESS AND INNOCENT TARGET OF POWERFUL AOL MEMBERS. This argument is a ludicrous joke! Are we to believe that this tiny little Navajo reservation of a AOL chat area is the headquarters of a ruthless band of strategic ex-cultists? This is paranoid and ludicrous! First, if I really wanted to bring the SYDA structure tumbling down, I wouldn't do it by sitting at my keyboard and gaily chatting with Cker about how much I love her recipe for Siddha coffee, pompously analyzing MrMrsGod's letters, and doodling at the keyboard with all kinds of other messages! Very little online here seems to be about how to topple the SYDA Foundation. As far as I'm concerned, if people want to be in Siddha Yoga--fine. It would be nice if they were informed of the whole story before making that decision. Even having said this, "informing people" is not an "agenda" of mine. I would guess that some people are here for reasons of recovery from trauma, for developing a new attitude towards being Hindus, for reasons of philosophical curiosity, for reasons of social ideological curiosity, for reasons of meeting cyberspace friends who can understand them when they talk about SYDA, for---for many varied reasons. Is it so terrible that there is one area in the solar system where SYDA can be talked about in an unrestricted way? Are we trying to "bring the whole SYDA structure tumbling down"? Of course not, and this is a paranoid and ridiculous simplification of why people would be interested in talking about their experience in SYDA. It is hard for people who are accustomed to cultish, totalizing ideological thinking to see that other people have the capacity to do things without having an all-embracing goal or "agenda." That's why cult people tend to be paranoid. Being so accustomed to grandiose and apocalyptic teleologies, they see conspiracies around them even when a half-dozen people are talking casually. I, for one, will not sit by and have a guilt trip and other cult tactics imposed on me. MrMrsGod may not be in total possession of their critical faculties. Still, that doesn't exempt them from being called on for what they say. (By the way, yes, I am hypothesizing that something is wrong with them, and thus shifting the onus back onto them--but unlike them, I am speaking openly, and not under the cover of a phony benevolence.) Subj: Ashram takes new direction Date: 96-06-09 10:29:24 EDT From: MARYANN3 The year 2000 has started out by Swamis and Devotees realizing that,yes, they do have a brain and a voice and a real spiritual practice. They have demanded that GuruMayi stop acting like a diety [ it just doesnt translate from India to America], show the financial balance sheets from Swiss Bank Accounts, Cayman Island Shell accounts and instead of using the money for self-aggrandizment and frilling up the ashrams [ after all you have many devotees ready to do slave labor for free], use the hundred of millions of dollars for care of abandoned children, homeless, ...we could make up a long list of potential projects. Let the devotees spend their endless energy making a difference. And GuruMayi, why dont you spend a year in India as a spiritual seeker with a loincloth [ alright a DESIGNER loincloth] and a begging bowl learning what real humility is. Maybe you too can find a spiritual path. Empty the ashram of expensive jewerly, lavish tapes, pictures of you in the clouds. Sweep the floors of commercialism out and get back to basics. Subj: Re:getting rid of stuff--part1 Date: 96-06-09 15:20:15 EDT From: Soloflyr11 dear dissent, thank you for your response. i understand much better now where you are coming from. at the risk of rehashing this too much, i still wanted to say a little more(well maybe not so little). i still don't think i have been totally clear. i rather think that it was great that you dumpstered all your stuff. i have stashed most of my stuff in a garage (because i have one). i have soooooo much "stuff"... books, pix, tapes etc. i have no sentimental value in the objects that i was given nor any desire to read anything or look at any pictures etc. but i haven't gotten rid of it all yet both because i haven't felt an urgent need to deal with it and because i really haven't felt like pressuring myself into figuring out *what* to do with it. give it away, throw it away, sell it, keep some etc etc., i just haven't decided yet, and i figure in due time i will know what i want to do. so as i've said i'm am learning to give things time and wait til things get clearer, so the stuff is just stashed away til i feel the dumpster's call. for example i have a shawl given to me by gurumayi. it is quite a nice one. it sits in a drawer, still has some pretty strong associations, but darn it's nice and i am no more superstitious that it is a bad thing anymore than i use to think that it was a "special thing". but it does have associations, so i'm not sure that i'll keep it. maybe it's because i didn't take as much direct abuse as you, or maybe it's cause i haven't totally uncovered my repressed anger, or maybe it's cause 7 years have gone by for me already or maybe it's just cause i've got a lot of other things to do and a lot of other "stuff" to deal with (my parents died in the last two years so i have been dealing with all their stuff too), but dealing with the physical stuff just hasn't been something i have needed to finish yet. (hey that *could* change tomorrow.) mind you it is all stashed away, out of sight, and pretty much out of mind. i suppose when i do deal with the stuff it will be a freeing experience. my process seems to be a slow and gradual one, with many sudden giant leaps. though i admit everytime i have felt ready to disgard something it has felt quite good. ; ) by the way i did get rid of a lot of pictures, burnt them. i was still at that time suffering from lingering bits of brainwashing. since then i have thrown many pictures in the trash. no ritual, just tossed them, like any other piece of trash. nothing i have kept of the syda accouterments am i keeping for their fond memories, please, it's more just cause i haven't decided what to do with it, and don't yet feel compelled to do anything.... many times in my life i have impulsively thrown things away, i am trying to be a little less impulsive these days, one of my lessons. my moon *is* in aries ; ) yes, i do think we each have our own VERY individual ways we need to deal with all of this.... and everything else for that matter!!! continued in the next post.... Subj: Re:getting rid of stuff-part 2 Date: 96-06-09 15:20:40 EDT From: Soloflyr11 i'd also like to clarify that really what i was referring to moreso was the practices and philosophies that i want to keep. i see that we have no disagreement here. you never liked navel gazing, so why the heck would you want to do it now... i on the otherhand loved it, so why would i throw it out. i do not think it renders me a zombie or wastes my time but rather like good medicine helps me live a fuller and happier life. i also do have an interest in astral ventures and such, and as long as they are not used as an "escape", i don't see why they are any less valid than any other venture/hobby one might want to pursue. i do still seek liberation, not some lofty guruesque state, but a state of being quite present and aware and at peace. i don't think there is one route there. i think each person has their own unique route and man we seem to get lost on some pretty funky deadend detours don't we. but i do think we are all much seeking a feeling of wholeness, integration, and freedom. i very much agree with you as to the value of relating and connecting with people. relating for me is much more of a challenge than meditating. but they are not mutually exclusive for me. i have so much to learn, relating being one of the most difficult and important lessons. but meditating, for example, for me is not a way for me to keep from engaging in my life lessons, but is something in my life that helps me, like vitamins (which i don't take), to have more strength and clarity to get on with it. anyway, i'm sort of thinking out loud as i get bolder and bolder.... really glad you're all there and thanx for all the feedback and support that i have been receiving both on this board and privately. sincerely and with love, solo letting it fly (when i quickly chose this name after trashing ileftsy i was really thinking of a pseudonym for my moon in aries. however i gotta tell ya, this name has taken on many meanings for me!) p.s. i do NOT see you as a << a godless, meat-eating pagan heathen primitive, a dangerous agent of chaos and anarchy and disintegration (I'm exaggerating)>> AT ALL. i think you sound like a kind and thoughtful (and very intelligent) person that i am VERY happy is here amongst us. i really feel very deeply and sincerely appreciative of your contributions on these boards, they have helped me IMMENSELY. i was just trying to understand why you seemed to be so opposed to certain things. i do feel that i now have a much clearer picture. thanx... before i felt like you were saying if one liked to use anything of the philosophy or practices one was still stuck in zombification or in your words <> ... and i just wanted to get it out on the table.... thanx Subj: stepping off the cliff 1/2 Date: 96-06-09 15:41:03 EDT From: Fibonacci8 Two weeks ago I heard from an old Syda friend. He called to tell me he'd just returned from London where he saw GM. He was now quitting his job to move into the ashram next month. I told him I had left SY. (He wasn't very surprised. I told him about my doubts a few years ago.) We chatted for a while, although I can't say we connected. After the conversation I felt irritated for days. One reason was that I couldn't dissuade him -- he didn't want to hear about it. He'd read the NY article, but decided it was irrelevant. His inner experiences were the important thing and he was going to let them inform him about SY. I felt pretty bad about it. I liked the guy. He was a really decent person -- maybe a little naive, but a good guy. And here he is, stepping off the cliff and moving to the ashram. The other reason the conversation irritated me was that it reminded me of my own foolishness when I stepped off that same cliff many years ago. It got me thinking about what it is about syda that is so alluring. This is what I've come up with: There is a state that devotees slip into. It is a state that seems happy and safe, where we have been given permission to feel special and grand. It is a childish state, a wonderful escape to a place where real thoughts and feelings don't intrude. It's not just Syda. Cult membership in the U.S. has gone up over the past decade. People everywhere are jumping in. Our culture has lost its moorings. Our sense of meaningful social identity is rapidly disappearing. When we can find community at all, it is in fragments. Cults offer us instant identity and community. It's no wonder that they're thriving. I think the allure of cults also has something to do with the underlying sense of entitlement in contemporary life. Everyone feels entitled to something more. Everyone craves specialness and privilege, now that ordinariness has lost its value in our culture. Cults play into this by offering us an escape from the ordinary. Each cult tells it's followers that THIS is the way to be really special, this is THE way. I think this sense of specialness is one of Syda's biggest attractions. You can feel pretty special by putting on your beads, going to the center and chanting in Sanskrit. But going to the ashram is a whole other thing. The guru is there, the supreme being in the form of a glamorous woman. And you get to see her, and hear her, and even speak to her. Wow, that's really special, right? When people tell you why they like being in the ashram, they talk about the shakti, the beautiful environment, the community of seekers, the discipline of religious practices, etc. These things do exist there, but I don't think they pull people out of their lives and into ashram residence. I think it's the sense of specialness that gets them, the promise of an honored place in the Magic Kingdom. Long term ashram residents sink deeply into a state of mind control and that's what keeps them there year after year. At first, though, I think it's the feeling of specialness that hooks people and reels them in. It's like buying a guaranteed winning ticket in the cosmic lottery. The prize: instant freedom from the anxiety of meaning in daily life and the anxiety of not knowing where one belongs. ( See Part 2 ) Subj: stepping off the cliff 2/2 Date: 96-06-09 15:42:34 EDT From: Fibonacci8 So, here is the voice of the blissed out seeker stepping off the cliff into the full blown syda experience: It's time to escape from my ordinary life, I'm entitled to glory, yes, to be special. I was timid and lost, I was inconsequential, on the streets I'm not noticed, but now I'll be special. I was self deprecating, all my life I was jealous, I asked, "Where is my place?" Now I know I am special. I missed all of my cues as I cowered for decades, I felt so unworthy, but now I am special. Though I finished behind you, without recognition, you've got nothing on me, I've got my place in heaven. You once looked so tall, I thought you were threatening, you've got nothing on me because now I am special. I'll bypass adulthood, go right to the top, I'm taking the shortcut, I'm one step from God. Look here, I'm entitled to be one of the blessed, Greatness has called me, and now I am special. And the voice of the ex-syda person replies: Well isn't that grand, you're now GM's kid, she'll read you nice stories and tuck you in bed. She'll tell you you're special and make you feel needed, there's only one problem -- you can't ever leave. Because if you did, who would tell you you're special? Who would reward you for remaining a child? If you ever left her you'd have to stand naked and relate to the cosmos all on your own. You'd just be a person, a mere mortal human, with just other mortals to help you find home. So now you are trapped, till you wake with a shudder, and gasp in the mirror at what you've become. When you do, pack your bags and get on the bus, then dial AOL, and join all of us! --Fibs Subj: Re: What to Do? Date: 96-06-10 07:56:16 EDT From: D Morgaina First, thanks so much for these posts - they've been so helpful. I have another question to put before the board. Since leaving SY the center leader has told everyone that I'm having severe personal problems and that it is my wish that NO ONE contact me and that they should respect my privacy. My plan was just to disappear without making a wave, but it was brought to my attention that a person who has very little money and is somewhat fragile in health (physical and emotional) is getting ready to spend what little they have for a *lifetime* trip to the ashram. The person who brought this to my attention was not prepared to share some of the *realities* of the ashram with them, but expressed concern that the ashram experience might wipe this person out both financially and emotionally. It wasn't my plan to be a SYDA buster, but perhaps I should make an attempt here? Any suggestions? DebSubj: Re: The Stuff Date: 96-06-10 08:01:06 EDT From: D Morgaina I've read with interest all the postings about what to do with the stuff. My first impulse was to give it to the center, but everyone there already has stuff. Then I thought I would give it to the Prison Project. That night I had a horrific dream about all these little babies coming away from their teacher with bruised bodies. No one around me seemed concerned, it was okay, they had just come from their teacher. I'm no dream expert, but my first thought on awaking is that I can't give this stuff to anyone who may ultimately be harmed by it. It immediately went into the dumpster, jewelry, tapes, malas and all. Thanks for all your support DebSubj: Re:getting rid of stuff-part 2 Date: 96-06-10 15:03:34 EDT From: Shridevi dissent, unlike soloflyr, i DO (sometimes, from time to time) see you as a not godless but indeed meat-eating pagan heathen primitive, a dangerous agent of chaos and anarchy and disintegration and, honestly, this is a great COMPLIMENT!!! i want more dangerous agents of chaos in my life. the heathen-er the better. sarahSubj: Re:getting rid of stuff-part 2 Date: 96-06-10 15:19:32 EDT From: Shridevi this thing about talking to old friends, fib. i think i know that feeling. after talking to ram and company i was totally in a *state.* ram's friend was actually quite abusive so it is not surprising. but it is that hamster-wheel feeling, around and around and there is no place to get off and be real with a person whose logic keeps returning to the same closed loop. exhausting. painful. and yes, familiar. i did the same subtle things to my mother many years back. she was the first one to leave the 'shram. sometimes i wonder if all those naive young college students that i suggested go to the center have ever read anything here. for years i have felt queezy in their presence. yet still tried to be a friend, if from a distance. (long distance.) the professor that everbody worshipped is gone from siddha yoga. so many of our friends have been or seen so much abuse. and still, even with so much shared life experience, i feel absolutely no inroad to a real conversation there. let alone a relationship. with more and more distance and fewer and fewer supporters taking part of this dialogue, it really stands out when someone like 'shaktanand' does his/her thing. like a carved relief. i was told once that this professor from berkeley who is really into psychological assessment (margaret singer) has done a lot of research and discovered, via meyers briggs, that people with all different kinds of personalities going into a cult, all have the same personality after being in the cult for a while. like you said - there are all these beautiful things but spend a year on staff . . . then you can begin to feel the oppression on your mind and spirit. thanks, sarah Subj: Shunning Date: 96-06-11 01:25:44 EDT From: Violet1884 Well, I just have to let off steam a little and there is no other group of people who will understand as well as you folks. I’ll say it early in this post - THANKS FOR BEING HERE! I just had my first concrete experience of shunning. Close friends of at least 12 years just this evening terminated their friendship with me on the basis that they had “heard that I was very negative about Siddha Yoga”. These same people said that they did not want to associate with anyone who “did not go to the center”. I think I stayed very rational and focused on the friendship that they were ending during the conversation rather than go into details about the reasons I had left SYDA. I knew that they wanted me to start talking about SYDA and SYDA abuses so that they could come back with the “tutored response” of “I don’t want to talk about it”. They did manage to get that response in however, even though it did not really make sense at the place they used it! There is a tutored response and they tune into the standard answers to avoid thinking rationally! It is all very hurtful. I know a lot of you out there have had these hurts and I have read them and felt for you when you have shared them. This is the first time I have had confirmation of this rejection and shunning in my own life. It does hurt. I know I will get over it - and it does hurt tonight. I wished I had thought quickly enough to say that if I had had any lingering desire to return to SYDA the reaction I received from them tonight would of dispelled it completely! Whatever happened to “See God in Each Other”??? To end a 12 year old friendship on the basis of what someone else said and without any discussion or explanation is mean, cruel and just plain rude! I know I am better off without these people but I had thought they were good friends and I would of liked to have retained the friendship. This is a sick, sick thing we all got involved in. Tonight I am mourning the years of my life that I gave to it. There is no way to get back those years. I understand Shridevi’s pain in having lost her youth. I have pain in having lost those years I put into it too. Time and distance will bring healing for all of us - and boy it is rough at times. Now, I am wondering how many other friends I have lost. The word is clearly out in the SYDA community that I am gone. Oh well - I am a really neat person so they are the losers not me!! Thanks again for being there. Violet Subj: mixed comments Date: 96-06-11 03:52:09 EDT From: Soloflyr11 shree, dissent and others. well actually i do vote for chaos, anarchy, disintegration etc. i thought of that as i posted , i was just trying to convey to dissent that i didn't think negatively of him. i hesitated in saying it the way i did because frankly i am rather a subversive character myself ; ) but i did it, oops.... so please let me put in another vote for such destructive agents.... and narada, it was so nice to hear your "human side". really nice. this impersonal relating can get boring for me.... learning to really relate may be one of my greatest challenges too... and thank you violet for being there! my heart is with you tonight. i much appreciate your putting out here for all to see such a vivid description of being shunned. i could "relate" all to well, unfortunately. i am still very into the subject of dealing with people in siddha yoga that you will continue to see, like family members or whatever, still trying to find a way that works for me. i have been appreciating any posts on this subject. howie and perduco touched on it recently and today shree yours was helpful too. i just figure i'm going to have to be strong and loving and detached, or something.... the frustration of really not being able to relate to someone you love is still quite unresolved for me.... shall i keep trying to find a way to "relate" to them? should i just give it up and be more detached? practice makes perfect, i hope.... and as for pain. well when i finally unburied my deepest pain, it was the dispair of having been disappointed by someone that i trusted, i.e. BETRAYAL! Subj: Shunning No.2 Date: 96-06-11 10:15:07 EDT From: Violet1884 Thanks Solo and MaryAnn for your posts. It does help to have people who understand what we are all going through. I am amazed over and over (to the point of not being amazed any more because it happens so often) of the similarities of our experiences on this board and among people I know IRL who have left SYDA. These similarities in experience point to the brain washing effects of SYDA surely. There is no diversity here. SYDA devotees all seem to respond in the same way to those of us who have faced the truth that is out there for all to see and have left. I notice the same phrases used over and over - “I hear you are negative about Siddha Yoga”, “I know my own experience”, “I don’t want to talk about it”. They trot out these responses even when they do not fit into the conversation! Truly brainwashed and tutored responses. Then there are those who say “I don’t want to talk about it” to us but rush around to other devotees and talk about it in detail as they report the “evils” of those of us who have left. It is all very bizarre. In response to your issue Solo, about relating to people who are still in SYDA. I have a close friend who is still in SYDA who has not cut me off. However, what we have had to agree on is that we will not talk about SYDA. She does not want to hear my experience and so I asked not to hear her “blissed out” stories. It does make the relationship more superficial since neither of us are sharing the deep feelings about something that has been a part of both our lives for so very long. But I guess that is how it has to be at least for a while. I figure the time might come when she too “sees the light” and rejects what is so abusive and controlling of so many people and then the relationship will be there. In the meantime I am finding it important to talk with those I know on and off this board who have also left and are returning to sanity. Talking about our feelings and experiences is what is healthy. I am also finding it important to get out in the world and make new friends and renew old friends. I was like so many other people, I disconnected from the world quite a bit during the years I was in SYDA. All my close friends were SYDA and most of my social activities were SYDA related. I am now consciously creating a world that is not SYDA related. That takes work - work that without my SYDA experiences I would not have to do since such a social system would be established. Anyway that is my task right now. I do not have family who are in SYDA as you do, Solo. I am sure that adds another level of pain and complication. In fact, I am finding support from my family in a very nice way as I leave. I am sure it is very hard to have the added energy of “family” to the people who are in your life and are still involved in SYDA. It is helping me to understand and remind myself that the brainwashing is very strong and that these people are really suffering. For those that I really care about I just think that maybe one day they too will leave and then perhaps they will return to our relationship. I don’t know if I can do it, but I am trying to keep myself open so that I may be able to be a support to them some day - in the mean time I am getting my support from other places. Thanks for being there. Violet Subj: and more Date: 96-06-11 12:35:53 EDT From: Soloflyr11 thank you again violet for describing so eloquently these experiences that are so familiar to many of us. as for my family member thing, the person is someone that i was actually quite close to for 40 years or so. my last encounter was in december and at that time i could not control my desire to try and shake up his world. it did not work of course, i got 100% predictable responses from him.. hopefully when i see him again i will be able to control this desire to shake him out of his stupor. i am learning to be more detached with those still involved and handling the situation better and better, but i also need to speak my truth if i feel so inclined. hopefully i will improve with time. so now after 7 years i have a life that is totally uninvolved with siddha yoga or any devotees. a much happier life than the one i had in siddha yoga, very much so. at the risk of sounding cold, the truth is that i really don't think back much to the friends that i lost as my life continues to move on and fill with new friends as well as several old friends that i had almost lost. in fact it is only through this board that i seem to be reconnecting to syda, but in this case it is with those who have left. i find that i have much in common with many who have left, and that does feel good. and as for the feeling of wasting my time during my 8 year stint, well i don't seem to feel that so strongly anymore. in honesty, i rather feel that during that 8 years i learned plenty, so it was not a waste of time for me. i rather feel i would have learned a lot during that time no matter what i was doing and i did get more than enough lessons while i was there. well maybe i'm still supressing my pain and anger, but it does feel that way for me. i also realize everyone's situation is quite different and had i "lost" more maybe i too would still feel more strongly that i wasted my time. i can't help but keep noticing how each of us has to deal with all this in our own unique way, yet at the same time there is also just so much commonality. sincerely, solo Subj: SHAKTANAND's special identity Date: 96-06-11 15:56:20 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear SHAKTANAND, Fibonacci reflected on how people enter SYDA, and other similar spiritual thought-systems, in order to escape faceless mediocrity, and to find a special, magical kindgom identity for themselves. SHAKTANAND, you posted that you feel Fibonacci's ideas are a product of his big ego. I here respond to your criticism. Shaktanand, you have told us a lot about yourself in recent messages, and I'm going to repeat some of this back to you now. YOU, the child psychic, YOU, the recognized teenage medium, YOU, the one who through a miraculous encounter with Baba Muktananda had the Chitshakti installed within him and is winging towards self-realization, YOU, who has scarcely enough ego to engage in verbal utterances which describe your experiences--YOU Shaktanand, I'd like to introduce you to ME, HowieSm, an average guy. It strikes me that YOU, SHAKTANAND, are the one who is hung up on having a magical kingdom identity, so much so, that you sound pretty darn cuckoo to me. Just my opinion. To me, you sound like a caricature of the kind of person Fibonacci was talking about. Of course, I'm just an average guy, so what do I know. I don't have any special spiritual credentials, like you. (I was neither a teenage medium, nor a teenage werewolf.) SHAKTANAND, why are you even on this folder if you've risen above it all? Is it because you have a neurotic compulsion to talk and act like a guru--like a "spiritual being"? Let's close the program with some SHAKTANAND. SHAKTANAND says, <<>> (Emphasis mine.) The human race should consider itself lucky that there is "enough of an ego left" in you so that we can benefit from your AOL messages. Don't drop your body yet SHAKTANAND! AOL readers everywhere are thirsting for your words of spirituality! (As they say, laughter is good for the soul . . .) Subj: Charlie, on looking inside Date: 96-06-11 15:57:38 EDT From: Howie Sm Dear Charlie, Lots of people online understand the "True Guru" business. I think you know that. In fact, some people here were SYDA staff members for more than a dozen years. I don't think you believe you are telling us anything new, so let's move along to what I think you are really driving at. The only reason you think we (SYDA critics) don't "look inside" enough is because we don't agree with you. It seems that for you, people who look inside are supposed to sound and act like "such and such," and if they don't fit your stereotype--well, they just aren't looking inside enough. That's a pretty simplistic way to look at people. It seems to me as if people are--to use a phrase you would like--"doing sadhana" around here. What would you say if I told you that we were looking inside, and are still looking inside, and the way we are now is the result of looking inside? Charlie, do you think we are looking in the "wrong inside"? Or that we are looking inside in the "wrong way"? Again, the only reason you think we don't "look inside" is because we don't sound like you, and don't make the right spiritual noises. If I thought of things in terms of an looking inside/outside binarism, as SYDA cult members are brainwashed to do, I would probably say: "Charlie, you are the one that is not looking inside." I would say, "Charlie, if you looked inside you wouldn't be so stuck." But I don't even subscribe to the looking inside/outside binarism so your entire linguistic framework to me is nothing more than an easily recognized marker of cult brainwashing. Rather than getting hung up on the "looking inside" business--a concept which is used to help cult members designate other people as spiritually bereft--what I'd rather say to you is: "Charlie, you are another human being like I am. Get off of your high horse so we can shake hands, man to man." Subj: Re:Shunning Date: 96-06-11 17:51:25 EDT From: PattyV1953 I have not been overtly "shunned" by those I know in SY. As I've posted before, there's a mix of scrupulous avoidance, silence, pity/patronizing, and acceptance. On the surface, things are all very friendly. One of the co-center leaders said to me, "Just because you're divorced from SY doesn't mean you have to be divorced from us," which I did appreciate but have trouble acting on. My difficulty is rooted in the knowledge that, for those still in SY, the main feature of my existence has become my "fall," my "rejection of grace." I am "deluded," "lost in maya," hopelessly trapped in the clutches of "ego." It's the equivalent of watching helplessly as a loved one goes insane. The hope, stated or implied, is that this is just a temporary state. Having watched others leave SY, having had those same feelings about them, and having had conversations with others while still in SY, I know this is true. I have trouble relating to people who think I'm deluded, lost, fallen, or generally no longer "good company." Just as I wondered why people would criticize me when I got into SY ("Don't they know I'm an intelligent person, that I would never get involved in some 'evil cult'?"), I wonder now why they don't also consider the fact that I am a responsible person who applies reasonable standards in evaluating facts and acting on them. Both situations highlight the "cult-think" of SY. A newcomer is kept ignorant of, and steered away from, the "unpleasantries" of SY history for which they aren't "ready," and the person departing, who knows too much to remain, is labeled as "deluded." Pat Subj: Re:Do I condone abuse? Date: 96-06-11 17:54:41 EDT From: PattyV1953 Charlie says, <> This seems to imply that former "insiders" (especially those who had been ashramites for significant periods of time) should have used their "discrimination" in refusing to participate in adharmic activities, or in failing to question or object to what they perceived, even while remaining devotees and disciples, as abuse. In SY, there is no such thing as "disobeying" or "say(ing) no to the outer guru with an open heart." It is unthinkable to question the motives of the outer guru, even if subjected to what, in the world, would be considered "abuse." The teaching that one should examine the guru's behavior seems reserved for introductory programs and for the examination of other teachers' behavior. Subj: Response to Charlie Date: 96-06-11 18:02:55 EDT From: PattyV1953 Charlie says, <> This "looking inside" that is suggested by this remark is amounts to keeping one's head in the sand. It holds no water, even when compared with the teachings of SY itself. It cannot and should not be used to ignore or excuse adharmic, immoral, unrighteous, illegal, and/or unethical behavior (take your pick of terms) by the "outer guru" or by those close to him/her whose behavior he/she ignores or excuses without sanction. We've all heard the teaching that it is a seeker's duty to examine the behavior - the outer actions - of the outer guru to determine if those actions are consistent with what he or she teaches. This was Baba's answer (I believe in one of the Q & A books, "Satang with Baba," in the '70s) to a person who asked how one avoids false gurus like Jim Jones. The accusations have not been answered by the guru or SYDA in any satisfactory way. Rather, when the accusations are admitted as being true, they are immediately dismissed as being beyond anyone's limited comprehension. The teachings of SY cannot espouse evaluation of a "true guru" by scrutiny of their behavior, then dismiss the results of that scrutiny as irrelevant. Charlie also states, <> I do not blame SY in general, or the gurus, the swamis, Ram Butler, or anyone else in particular, for my feelings. I'll claim a long period of confusion followed by disappointment as a result of concluding that I could no longer ignore, or excuse as "inscrutable," the behavior attributed to Baba, Gurumayi, and the people around them. My participation in this board is part righteous indignation, part altruistic public service, part penance for having remained silent with my doubt for so long while encouraging others to believe by serving as a "role model." (Anger hasn't crossed my mind or heart as yet, which is curious, because I have a notoriously short fuse!) Pat Subj: Re: Pat Date: 96-06-11 18:18:49 EDT From: Fibonacci8 You wrote: << In SY, there is no such thing as "disobeying" or "say(ing) no to the outer guru with an open heart." It is unthinkable to question the motives of the outer guru, even if subjected to what, in the world, would be considered "abuse." The teaching that one should examine the guru's behavior seems reserved for introductory programs and for the examination of other teachers' behavior. >> Yes, this is the problem, isn't it. I was interested to see that the Dalai Lama has gone on record as saying that this is not how we should relate to spiritual teachers. To a large extent, it was our goodness and our willingness to trust which led us into the Syda trap. Now in extricating ourselves from Syda, we have to give that same goodness and trust to ourselves which we once gave away to someone else. Subj: Shunning Date: 96-06-11 20:37:37 EDT From: Agni123 Hi, You All! Before launching in to a discussion about shunning I want to welcome you, Maryann. Thanks so much to you and your significant other for joining us. And it’s nice to learn your other names Pat, Deb and SoloFlyr. Violet, I am so sorry that your former SYDA “friends” abused you by shunning you. Your phony SYDA “friends” loss of your friendship, intelligence and other good qualities are the gain of those of us on this board. I am so happy that you are on this board and that you let us know when someone has hurt you. I am sure that intellectually you know that you are better off without the people who shunned you. However, such intellectual knowledge doesn’t stop the heart pain of such cruelty does it? I am sorry that they hurt you. The violence and pain of being shunned by former SYDA “friends” has probably been experienced by everyone on this board or it will be. I don’t say this to diminish the significance of your experience in any way. Instead, I say this to point out how common and pervasive abuse is in SYDA. SYDA and ABUSE are synonymous .. they are one and the same. Also, I say this to tell you that this board is, as I am sure you know, a place for healing to take place. Here we validate reality. Here, together, we heal and are healed from our shared abuses as well as our unique individual ones. How wonderful to have this board. Posts on this board have shown that when we were in SYDA most of us thought that we had made wonderful life-long “friends” there. Indeed, such imagined friendships were a significant reason why many of us stayed in SYDA for so long. I thought I had made friends in SYDA --- kind, discerning, true, life-long friends. I thought that they genuinely care for me as I did for them. Some of my friends left SYDA during the years when I remained there and I didn’t terminate my friendships with them. I didn’t see these people as often after they left because my life at the SYDA Center took up most of my free time, but I didn’t shun these friends. In fact, part of me secretly admired them for leaving, and some of them are my TRUE friends today. But while I was still in SYDA I felt that my closest, truest friends --- my life-long friends --- were the people I knew in SYDA. Even as I began to realize that SYDA was largely a fraudulent scam cult, I was still very reluctant to leave it. To a significant extent, this was because I felt unsure about how these SYDA friends would treat me if I left because by then I had learned about shunning and about the violent ways that Baba and Gurumayi have had people treated who have left SYDA or questioned it. While I wondered if my SYDA friends would terminate their friendships with me, I honestly (and naively) didn’t think they really would. Not these sweet, good, periodically abusive people. Not my friends; not these, my life-long friends. I overestimated my value to them I guess. I thought they valued me as much as I valued them. Guess what folks? It’s true, “a fool IS born every minute.” I had worked very hard on my SYDA friendships during my SYDA years. I invested a lot of myself in them because I value being a good friend. By nature I am a kind, supportive person. O.K., I’ve learned that I am also co-dependent. I helped my SYDA friends in many ways by cooking and cleaning for them and entertaining them many times. Almost daily I spent hours on the telephone and writing letters to support my SYDA friends here and around the world. I transported them to and from airports, took care of their animals while they visited the gurus, visited many of them in hospitals, sat with some throughout their long deaths, went with them to appointments to give emotional support, bought some of them food and clothing and paid some of their rents. I bought household items, pet food, airfares, intensives and a lot of SYDA “stuff” from the Bookstore for my friends . I provided lodging for my friends and for visiting SYDA “VIPS.” See Pt 2 Subj: Shunning pt 2 Date: 96-06-11 20:39:15 EDT From: Agni123 I gave parties for my friends, provided holiday celebrations and vacations, etc., etc., etc. I say all of this not to break my arm patting my back, but to demonstrate how hard I worked on my “life-long” SYDA friendships. O.K., I realized that in my local SYDA community there were a number of “free-loaders” who have been networking this community for years to get freebies. I thought I had identified these people and I was glad to help them as much as seemed reasonable. I expected very little from them in return for what I gave ... except I expected more requests from them and they didn’t disappoint me. Their requests continued to the end and some still continue. These people are reluctant to shun me as long as they can still profit from my resources. I know that if I cut them off, though, I would immediately be viewed by them as “bad company” and they would return to the SYDA community with stories of my “fall from SYDA Grace.” I didn’t have delusions about these people. But, I also thought I had identified sincere SYDA friends. In this I was mostly deluded. I have to say that while most of my SYDA “friends” took and took and took from me they gave very little in return. When I was seriously ill, I didn’t receive help from them. Instead I mostly heard, “It’s your karma. I’m busy.” They left me alone. When I had worries, emotionally hard times and the kinds of difficulties that we all have in life (the kind of situations that I had supported these life-long friends through) mostly these “friends” told me (if they bothered to notice or comment at all) “it’s the shakti.” Or they told me stuff about my astrological chart, etc. Mostly they totally ignored my needs. Still, amazingly, I felt that that I needed these self-centered, narcissistic, rude people and I worried that if I left SYDA I would be leaving friends who would have supported me for the rest of my life ... as I would have supported them. Talk about DELUSION! Talk about veils of delusion. Well, I wasn’t under “veils of delusion” about most of these good life-long SYDA friends and my SYDA gurus, I was under “horse-blankets of delusion”!! Violet ,et. al., like many of you, I thought I had friends in SYDA and this was a major reason why I stayed in SYDA for so long, but mostly I did not have friends there. (Thankfully, I did and do have a few REAL friends from my SYDA days. Like me they have left SYDA and we do continue to be friends and support each other. Of course, I am not writing about these few people here. I am writing about the vast majority of my “SYDA friends.”) The people I thought were my SYDA friends were really just co-participants in SYDA delusions. As with your experiences, once I stepped out of the delusions I was shunned. I was rudely, cruelly shunned by the people I had viewed as my life-long friends; the people I had supported so earnestly and sincerely. Who needs such “friends”. Not me, I’ll stick my precious few REAL ones! Now when I am shunned or I hear about someone else being shunned I think of how deluded the “shunners” are. Like you and me, they think they “have such great friends in SYDA.” But, just as they are shunning you and me now, they too will be shunned if they leave SYDA or if they even question it. They are in a trap and don’t know it. They are trapped, Violet, but what you and I and others on this board have now is freedom, authenticity, diversity, reality and honesty. And, we have mental health and not mental illness. No small thing. See pt 3Subj: Shunning pt 3 Date: 96-06-11 20:40:10 EDT From: Agni123 Yes, being shunned hurts. It hurts a great deal. Amazingly these deluded souls who shun us now somehow think it is almost a spiritual practice and that it proves their spiritual sincerity and spiritual dedication. But I see their deep cancerous FEARS. They are terrified of what we might reveal to them or “force” them to look at. By shunning us they are showing their need to throw up all the armor they can find to protect themselves in isolation. If these shunners were spiritually strong it wouldn’t matter what you or I or anyone else said to them about SYDA. However, they are not strong. They are very weak and frightened. I hear it in their voices as they give their practiced, tutored little statements such as, “I don’t want to talk about SYDA (but in reality that is all that they do or can talk about).” Or “I haven’t read the article” or “it’s all yellow journalism” or whatever. These shunners are terribly frightened of us for we represent to them facts that they don’t want to face. Facts that we have faced. The more removed from SYDA that I become the more clearly I seem to see that only really psychologically inadequate, frightened people remain in it. As someone on the board recently pointed out so brilliantly, people who leave SYDA come to be viewed by those who remain as personifications of the SYDA wrongdoings. I did not cause abuses in SYDA, but I am viewed as an abuser. Those abuses were/are caused by the SYDA people. I merely left the abuses and reveal the ones I know about. As is well known, a classic way to try to get rid of an unpleasant message (e.g., abuses in SYDA) is to try to kill the messenger. So it goes in dysfunctional groups. The values get all mixed up. Those who should be “shunned” are those SYDA monks/gurus who broke their vows and committed immoral deeds, not the people like us who are reacting to the immoralities by leaving them. I have done nothing wrong, I am only leaving wrongdoing. Still, I am made out to be the villain. WEIRD! People who react against abuse are not “bad” people. It is the people who have committed the abuse who are “bad.” If ever I needed additional proof that SYDA is a cult (and I don’t need more proof of it), the shunning that I experience from my frightened, SYDA “friends” provides such proof amply. Shunning, limiting contacts, isolating and denying information ARE signs of cultish behavior. Soloflyr, you said “When I finally unburied my deepest pain it was the despair of being disappointed by someone I trusted, i.e., betrayal.” I agree. We were betrayed by our Guru and our Guru’s organization (one and the same thing as Gurumayi has said publicly). And every time we are also betrayed by people we thought were friends it reopens all of the wounds of betrayal. Real friends do not shun or abuse each other. The SYDA gurus were unreal. Most of my SYDA friends were unreal. People I thought were my real friends in SYDA turn out not to be. At times I get fearful that people who appear to be my friends on this board may not really turn out to be. I don’t think this is paranoia. It is caution. And this is why it frightens me to see people like Larryom mistreated. I wonder if I will be next. I hope that you are my friends. I will try to be a good friend to you. Agni Subj: Re: What to do? Date: 96-06-11 22:16:48 EDT From: Violet1884 I did make a note to respond to your post last night, Deb, and then I got all caught up in my on stuff! Sorry because I did intend to respond to you right away. It is irritating and frustrating isn’t it to find out that people are saying things about you when you have the sense that there is nothing you can do about it. This feeling of lack of control is something I find I have very little tolerance for any more. My experience last night with the shunning was similar in that my “former friends” had “heard” things about me and made no attempt to check it out with me nor were they willing to ask me about the truth when I called them last night. Terrified people. I don’t know what I would do in your situation but a possibility is to contact the people you do care about at the center, tell them that you have heard what is being said about you and that it is not true - that you are open to contact with SYDA people. Regarding your “penniless friend” who is planning to go to the ashram - I think what I would do would be to contact her and simply say that you advise that she read the various articles before she go. Even perhaps that she read the open letters. I think if it was me, that that is what I would do. I don’t think I would get into trying to dissuade her from going but just refer her to the written material and then offer to be available if she wants to talk afterward. This written material is very persuasive for anyone who is even half way interested in facing the truth. Best wishes and thanks for being here. Violet. Subj: Shunning, going within, etc. Date: 96-06-11 22:23:58 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 Dear Everyone, A couple of things... 1. Agni, please don't go. Charlie, please stay. Larry, please come back. Why can't we all be here and be who we are without fear of censure? Shunning, as Agni has pointed out, is a cult practice pervasive in SYDA. It's a way of not relating honestly that I strongly feel should not take place in this forum. We don't have to hold back if we disagree with something that's said, but what's the point of flaming each other into oblivion? Haven't we been through enough in leaving another group where we thought we were accepted and loved? I like to think we are friends here. I like to think we are not *superficially* supporting each other. I like to think I can be myself -- whether I am being witty, whiny, self-righteous, gooey, smart, smarty pants, funny, depressed. In SYDA I couldn't be who I was, I could only be Miss Bliss. 2. I hope Charlie's posts aren't sending people into paroxysms. I can see where he'd press some buttons, but I'm not convinced he's any more SY-oriented than the most "ex" among us. When he talks about the True Guru, he's speaking about the heart from a frame of reference that makes some of us uncomfortable, not advocating surrender to a cult leader. (I think it's important to make that distinction because knowing Charlie, he won't!) It's like...I'm a lapsed Jew. I throw around Yiddish expressions. It's my frame of reference. But do I buy the Book of Leviticus and all of its arbitrary taboos and sexist laws? No way! Whether we like it or not, we're all on a "path." Some of us are still trying to find the one authentic inner guidance in the midst of all the rubble. Some of us don't think we have a big Self/small Self anymore. Some of us have no idea what we believe. Some of us are very angry, some are very sad, some like to intellectualize, some get bored by close readings. Some -- like me -- are kinda schizy and "all of the above." I'm proposing that we all just be here and be us. In my process of leaving SYDA, though there may be much to gain by it, I feel I've lost enough already and will lose a lot more; I'd hate to lose any of you. Each one of us has something important to say. I for one will try not to intimidate anyone out of saying what they need to. Love, Hrdaya Subj: To Pat Date: 96-06-11 22:38:53 EDT From: Violet1884 You say: << In SY, there is no such thing as "disobeying" or "say(ing) no to the outer guru with an open heart." It is unthinkable to question the motives of the outer guru, even if subjected to what, in the world, would be considered "abuse." The teaching that one should examine the guru's behavior seems reserved for introductory programs and for the examination of other teachers' behavior. >> This is the best statement about SYDA I have read in a long time!!! This is the truth! It explains a lot - it certainly explains the brainwashing that we have all been exposed to in varying degrees. I have been telling my ‘very Christian” brother about my current experiences with SYDA. He has been very supportive and tried to show his support by telling me about some experiences he is having with one of the groups in his church. There are some similarities. However the difference is this “living guru” phenomenon. My brother has some irritations with some of the people who are part of the same faith as he is however he has not been let down or abused by his “master”. For me (and I think for most of us) Gurumayi was the equivalent of Jesus to Christians - and everyone understands that for a Christian there is no disobeying or saying “no” to Jesus (academically anyway!!) Your statement is excellent, Pat and helps me go a little further in understanding my own SYDA programming. Thanks for being here. Violet. Subj: repression Date: 96-06-12 00:41:38 EDT From: Dissent222 Well, I'm going to leave Charlie, even Shaktanand, to Howie. Howie is the true saint here, since he has the endless patience to keep talking to the deaf, and keep trying to get the blind to see, and to continually offer his crystal clear logic to the irrational. That's what I call a labor of love. As for selling my stuff, Charlie, it would be worthless, but out of greed and lust for power, I'd charge you a few thousand for it - in other words, in just that one instance, I'd align myself with SYDA's traditional practices. Violet, your story of shunning is so sad, yet it has happened to me dozens of times and to many others I know who have left. I had hundreds of relationships I thought of as friendships, actually, and they turned out to have no substance other than worship of GM. Remove that piece, and there was nothing there that could stay alive. How lucky to be free of those fake relatioships, but how sad that they turned out to be so fake. Agni, I'm the one who archives the messages. I have received messages from all around the world from people who are waking up to the reality of syda from reading these archives. I didn't take a vote about doing this, or on how to do it, I just did it. I will continue, and I will continue to edit as I see fit. If someone else wishes to post a complete archive, they may do so. If they contact me and let me know, I won't bother. As for "abuse" of Larry, I see it completely differently than you have described. Being angry with someone and expressing that anger is not at all the same as abuse. The other person besides myself who was angry with Larry was Bob. Bob and I spoke strongly to Larry because we both felt he was covertly disrespectful, patronizing, and hostile, and in particular, that he frequenlty baited me and Howie. You didn't see that or experience it, but I did. I often disagree with what others say here, but rarely bother to get into it. I felt that Larry's relentless, covert, possibly unconscious hostility and condescension to myself and Howie was intolerable, and after speaking to Larry privately about it and finding it continuing, I spoke publicly. I never told Larry to leave, and he is perfectly free to stay. But if I am going to be covertly dissed with hostility disguised as spirituality, I will complain about it. I do so because lots of people, Gurumayi, for example and par excellence, get away with murder by disguising their anger, envy, and hatred, as spirituality. If Larry has supporters and friends here, he can decide to ignore what I've said, he can come back, he can do what he likes. You have criticized me for being abusive, and I'm still here - I disagree with you, but I respect your right to your perspective and I continue to feel free to express my own. I don't need concensus here to feel OK about posting. I'm happy that different views get expressed, and that sometimes people get angry with others and express their feelings about it. Anger and abuse are different. One of the abusive aspects of syda was repression and punishment of dissent, criticism, or so called "negativity." That kind of repression is abusive. I hope it is not mimicked here on this board. Folks, you're saying lots of great stuff. Thanks. Dissent Subj: Repression, delurking & loss Date: 96-06-12 09:57:57 EDT From: Hrdaya2914 BEWARE: THIS IS A NEEDY, WHINY POST Well, it seems the more I "come out" and the less I repress, the more I lose. It's been scary for me to say what I've said. I have a life history of feeling that I've done and said the wrong thing. (SYDA didn't help in that regard.) I'm feeling now that maybe Howie and Dissent, who have been a great support to me, now see me as "...the deaf...the blind...the irrational." (from Diss's post.) I probably project but.... In matters outside of leaving SYDA, my life sitch sucks eggs. A lot of things are falling apart. Admittedly there was a lot I never had to begin with -- SY was the bandaid for that lack. It's hard not to revert to the magical thinking I've done for 8+ years and see it as all karmically related to breaking away from SY. The posts about shunning are my worst nightmare. My "friends" will, I'm sure, be doing that to me very soon. (There was talk about me in the community on one occasion before I even decided to leave. It was, ironically, the beginning of the end for me.) So far its been pretty tame. I haven't told everyone I'm leaving by a longshot. Out of those I have told, they're being pretty cool about it but I wonder sometimes if they simply don't believe me. Others -- the ones I haven't told -- are being particularly solicitous and "sweet" these days -- maybe they've heard I'm "having problems." I feel slimed by them. I'm probably (sub)consciously rejecting them before they get a chance to reject me. The danger, as I've said, is falling into magical thinking mode, which makes me feel I'm being "punished." Does anyone have any advice about how to deal, without running back into the arms of my unconditionally loving fantasy? Subj: to hrydaya Date: 96-06-12 13:26:09 EDT From: Soloflyr11 oh hrydaya, you sure touch chords for me. i doubt that you were being seen as deaf blind or anything like that. i for one have been loving your posts. but oh TOS do i know this one: <<< I have a life history of feeling that I've done and said the wrong thing. (SYDA didn't help in that regard.) >>> for me the way i'm learning to get over this whole thing is by learning to love myself. see now i fear that i sound all new agey, but darn it this is my experience, though i do find this a bit difficult to put into words. we were all so good at projecting our love onto those deluded sick figures, now i am trying to learn to give that same love to my very own self. what a concept. didn't "they" even say that. honor yourself, kneel to yourself, etc etc.... i bet that there are many among us that lack/lacked love in our lives. and i bet many of us ran around trying to get love from gurus and other people. well why not now learn to give some of that heart stuff to ourselves. not in some narcassitic way i don't mean, more like a mother loves her child. why don't we just learn to love ourselves that way, aren't we all deserving of nurturing and love. ok, so i'm going off a bit here, but i just am really into this lately. and it's been working really well for me ; ) so hrydaya, i wish i had some "good advice" for you. i just know that it is a difficult transition period for many of us when we leave, not that that's much of a consolation, but it is true. and it is my very strong belief that the growth that is ahead of you will be far more fulfilling than all the bliss you found when you were there. sure i can fall into a space of missing that bliss mode, that group hypnosis, it was such an ever so nice narcosis. but now i personally am finding a lot more bliss in becoming a free agent, free to experience a much broader spectrum of life and of myself. gosh i wish there was something i could say. you are NOT being punished, you are NOT bad or wrong. how's this: you are leaving an isolated cult that has a very strong consensus reality/fantasy thing going. when you no longer buy into the consensus that keeps their world together, you will probably not be desirable there unless you are willing to support the fantasy. and it's so hard when it's just little you and it's ALL of them, and they've got this whole story around them that says that afterall they ARE right. and then you use to believe they were right too. in fact you've still got stuff inside you that says they are, so not only are you going "against" this mass of people but also against your own internalized stuff. your own little mahabharata. yet i think you know that you can't go back, too late, you can't close your eyes now. i mean to me it seems a bit like a choice between this limited deluded but blissful and "safe" feeling life, versus life itself. and i do think that all that you think that you are leaving behind will someday appear to you as something that would have SEVERELY restricted your life. gosh, i wish i could help.... sincerely, solo<<--who is caring less and less what others think and who is learning to love herself whether she sounds silly, stupid, rambly, pompous, new agey, or whatever, because i deserve it ( ha ha, that was for al franken yaknow) Subj: a voice of one's own Date: 96-06-13 05:40:31 EDT From: Dissent222 Dear Solo - I totally related to your post to Hrdaya. It has been a long hard struggle, but I am also learning more and more how to invest in myself. I have sold all my worthless stock in Swami Charlatanananda and her SnakeOil Yoga, that I paid so dearly for, and I've been buying up more and more stock in myself. Attending to the nurturing of my talents and skills, my goals and ambitions, my friends and family, my hobbies and interests, my values and ideals -- all that I didn't have a second to devote myself to while I tried to be her disciple. If you said "I" or "my" in her presence, you should have seen the derision and contempt she would heap on you. I mean this literally, she hated those pronouns and we tried to find ways of avoiding them when we wrote to her or spoke to her. Any thought that wasn't about HER was contemptible -- from the twisted perspective of her grotesquely inflated ego. Now, in many different ways, I can love and respect myself, and I keep trying to learn more how to love and be loved. It's not new agey, didn't you ever hear me say it was my favorite Nat King Cole song? When he sings, "the greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love, and be loved in return." That's what I believe. You don't sound new agey or anything, you sound so sincere and real and smart. You know, GM and AFif used to make Namdev, Durgananda, Ishwarananda, and others, give talks while wearing earphones. GM or AFif would speak into mikes which would get transmitted to the earphones in Namdev's ear, and then he'd just repeat what they were saying. That is the extent to which Gurumayi would go to parasitically steal another person's voice and identity. What could be more invasive and assaultive than to have to stand up in front of audiences night after night and pretend you're speaking in your own voice, when all you are doing is parroting what your master is saying in your ear. I see this as Gurumayi's grotesque, cowardly way of dominating and exploiting another person, to put across your hidden agendas and make others accountable for your deeds. Solo, I think this happened in a symbolic way to many of us, even though there was no actual earphone. We let her snuff out our own voice and tried to speak in hers. It's very degrading, eroding, dehumanizing. Now we keep having to say to ourselves, again and again, my voice is good, I'm good enough, my identity is good enough. It takes a lot of work to exorcise the alien voice of the exploiting guru, but it pays off. It is obvious when I read your posts how worthwhile the effort is. Be well, Dissent Subj: more shunning Date: 96-06-12 14:39:50 EDT From: Shridevi pat, i think it was you who said something like - the center leader told you that just because you were leaving siddha yoga you didn't need to be "leaving" the community or whatever. something about that got under my skin. it felt to me like a Ram Butlerism. he kept telling me he was "open" to whatever I had to say and then covertly insulting me all the while. and i was supposed to "appreciate" his friendship, i'm sure. as well as "notice" how spiritual he was being. when both of us knew darn well what he REALLY thought. i want to say "DON'T APPRECIATE IT!!!!" i mean, if you feel it is really sincere, then STILL, what is there to appreciate??? i guess i'm reacting because the word "appreciate" sounds a little like you, pat, who is going through changes can appreciate the stability of so an so who is not. i'm just shooting my mouth off here. not trying to give advice. just two cents. i'm coming back to your neck of the woods sometime this summer, maybe we could have tea? i've noticed, with regard to shunning, that much of what i have posted on this board over the past months has been done with the company of this inner audience of old acquaintances from siddha yoga. i write imagining that there is a chance "they" might read it. it's a bummer, let me tell you. when i get this superego implant dug out, i'll be really happy. a friend of mine was recently thrown out of amrit by ashram managers who had in their hands something she sent on the internet. just thought y'all might wanna know. : ) Subj: you want it? it's yours Date: 96-06-12 14:45:03 EDT From: Shridevi very willing to accept donations for the following: approximately 70 darshan magazines starting from the beginning. some siddha paths, gurudev vanis and even the videos we are not supposed to have. the "kindle my heart" poster of gurumayi with white tiger blah blah, large shaktipat photo of baba (14x17) or something like that . . . assorted pictures of chidvilasananda in natural settings - windswept hair, the alps or whatever. tapes and cd's. make me an offer. Subj: Re:you want it? it's yours Date: 96-06-12 18:26:19 EDT From: PERDUCO I can up Shridevi's offer with a very,very rare black and white photo of GM. (14 x18). Plus I'll throw in all, quite a few bookshelves, of SY books, and magazines--and of course hundreds of photos. Perhaps you'd like to buy both Shridevi's stuff and mine----if you are rich----i'm all too willing to have a fool part with his money. However, I'll keep my Kashmir Shaivism books (about 15 of them), as I don't think SY ever did more than selectively apply it's principles. Nonetheless, I must offer you my analysis on why some buy these books in just a few simple words: Despite SY's emphasis on the God and Guru "within"--the persistent sales pitch in it's evening programs, emcees, members themselves, and occasionally GM herself, would be that we remain incomplete without these items. In Tibetan Buddhism there is a realm called the "hungry ghost" realm--It encompasses, amongst other things, compulsive consumerism. Caritas, Perduco Subj: Re: Something started Date: 96-06-12 23:04:12 EDT From: D Morgaina It seems that my departure, although making me some poor, pained individual in some circles, has also peaked the interest of some who are "thinking" about leaving SY and have asked for my help, opinion, etc. They say, "Well, I knew about some things (Baba, New Yorker article, etc), but I thought everything was OK now, that there is anymore abuse, sexual misconduct, hidden microphones, etc." Even though finding out about past conduct was sufficient for me to break my connection, my assumption (and what seems to be posted on this board) is that these activities continue to this day both at Fallsburg and Ganeshpuri. Has anyone else had this experience in their community. Am I correct about abuses continuing. Please let me know by posting or e-mail. I will, of course, respect your confidentiality. Thank you. Violet, thank you for your insights. It helped alot! Subj: Mixed Thoughts (1 of 2) Date: 96-06-13 00:41:24 EDT From: PattyV1953 Shridevi, Yes! Definitely! Let's get together, oh-oh yeah. (Sorry, I forget sometimes that you're from another R&R era!) There is so much I agree with in the last flury of posts. Hrdaya, your conciliatory overture was warm and genuine, and - I agree with Dissent (or Solo?): you are definitely not among deaf/dumb/blind. I also agree that fear of "censure" should not influence our posts. The variety of views reflects all the different people we were before SY, and the diversity there will continue to be long after. I don't think I'm alone in understanding that the "archive" of this board would be a complete rendering. My World Book dictionary has no reference to "archiving" computer documents, but the medium lends itself to effortless inclusion of every scrap - pseudopatanjalis, the occasional flame or flare of hurt feelings, duplicate "attaboys" and "I agrees," and all. Dissent, please consider that what you decide to cut may be just what someone else needs to hear. An abridged version of the archive should be billed as such. Shridevi, I took the person's comment regarding my not "divorcing" him and his wife with SY with a grain of salt. I'm not sure what form my relationships with SY people will take, but I am not feeling the need to be with them right now. At a recent party I found myself on the fringes of sydaland. A diverse group of people, from various universes, were brought together by the birthday of a devotee. The devotee host and hostess gravitated to the SY group, and other groups separated out. Now on the "outside," it looked awkward and inevitable at the same time: The conversation among the devotees was darshan stories and grace-land talk, nothing that anyone outside SY could relate to. Thoughts on how my "relationship to the guru" affected my relationships with others - I always tried to tell people - and desperately tried to convince myself - that SY does not teach one to "worship" the outer guru. Certainly, lip service was paid to idea but, in my heart, I "adored" Gurumayi. In fact, when I was single and first began SY, but was still listening to the radio instead of chanting tapes, I sang along with pop love songs which, in my head, I dedicated to Gurumayi. No imaginary white knights for this yogini! Later, even my deceptively-simple husband - a more astute observer of human nature and a more honest person I dare you to find - once said to me, "I know you love Gurumayi more than you love me." It breaks my heart to admit that, at the time, I could not and did not object. I was dumbfounded that he had discovered my precious and very holy ("special," in recent board poetry terms) secret. I tried to tell my husband that this was a "different kind of love," but he's not stupid and I'm a bad liar. This was an affair of the heart in the truest sense. I was completely smitten, and "no handsome face could ever take the place of my guru" (Chorus: "My Guru"). This is perhaps one of the most egregious of the violations I visited upon my family in the name of SY. I can never take that back and can only try to make up to him for all the "separate vacations," Monday nights, Saturday nights, Sunday mornings, beautiful October weeks and weekends, summer full moons, and New Year's weekends we missed in our first 11 years together (including midnight last Jan. 1, which found me at the center chanting the mantra because - well - that's just "where I found myself, but how auspicious!" - yes, if you consider it a harbinger of legal separation). I recognize in myself that tendency to form "sydaships" instead of friendships with people in SY. I was dating a devotee, and our Wednesday night date was satsang. I was in it for the companionship and comaraderie in the beginning, and certainly as a way of being more "attractive" to the guy I was dating. (That relationship ended and he left the center, and then SY altogether - a LONG time ago.) Subj: Mixed thoughts (2 of 2) Date: 96-06-13 00:43:34 EDT From: PattyV1953 Much about my sydaships that was based on my discovery and adoption of Sydaspeak, which is only understood by the awakened, the fortunate, the blessed. (I think this is a subtle - or maybe not-so-subtle - separating technique that happens in cults. Those of you studying them, isn't this true?) Funny, but when I went to the ashram alone (which was most of the time, because there is such a small community here) I experienced cliques of "insiders" (mostly ashramites and SC's ["special considerations" - all the amrit you can stand] from NYC, CA, and Ganeshpuri, and old-oldtimers). They spoke another dialect of Sydaspeak, and had all those guru visits to their rooms. I never did fit in. So, I became an ascetic - silent table in the dining hall, anonymous residence in Vijayanti. (What understanding! How meaningful and contemplative!) I longed for my family during those lonely meals and prayed that my husband would get shaktipat. (As Garth Brooks says, "Sometimes I thank God for unanswered prayers....") Gotta get to bed. (Now, Mike's jealous of you guys!) Hey, NOBODY leave! We need every perspective. Love, Pat Subj: Jus' sum thoughts Date: 96-06-13 03:42:21 EDT From: PERDUCO D Morgaina, in response to individuals contemplating leaving SY you report the following responses: <